Author Topic: The Church That's Older Than the Orthodox Church  (Read 2228 times)

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Offline Justin Kissel

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The Church That's Older Than the Orthodox Church
« on: May 17, 2010, 08:21:08 PM »
I see Orthodox people say that Orthodoxy was founded in 33AD. I've also seen that pop up in other places, such as those silly and inaccurate timelines of Church history. I don't understand this at all. I realise that such is the traditional belief in Orthodoxy, but is it accurate? Wouldn't a closer approximation be that Jesus was born around 4BC, and that the Church was therefore founded around 29 or 30AD?

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: The Church That's Older Than the Orthodox Church
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2010, 08:23:31 PM »
Why get hung up on three to four years?
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: The Church That's Older Than the Orthodox Church
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2010, 08:27:58 PM »
It makes us look like we are bound to whatever was taught in the past, and unable to cope with evidence that we were wrong. Was tradition given to man for his benefit, or was man given to tradition to be it's slave?

Offline Iconodule

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Re: The Church That's Older Than the Orthodox Church
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2010, 08:36:38 PM »
It makes us look like we are bound to whatever was taught in the past, and unable to cope with evidence that we were wrong. Was tradition given to man for his benefit, or was man given to tradition to be it's slave?

It's more a question of, Why does this matter? Why are those 3-4 years so important that we need to revise the tradition? Sometimes we are slaves to "accuracy" for its own sake.

Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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Re: The Church That's Older Than the Orthodox Church
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2010, 08:53:36 PM »
Sometimes we are slaves to "accuracy" for its own sake.
I certainly hope people do not take that attitude into other fields.
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Offline genesisone

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Re: The Church That's Older Than the Orthodox Church
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2010, 09:05:47 PM »
 :D or maybe the calendar has been revised more often than we realize!

Setting dates (Creation, Second Coming, just about anything) doesn't seem to be a strong point in Orthodoxy. Some truths are more important than answers in a trivia game.

(Apologies for being flippant. I could come up with a more serious answer, but it just doesn't seem that important.)

Offline HandmaidenofGod

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Re: The Church That's Older Than the Orthodox Church
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2010, 11:11:24 PM »
Perhaps a more accurate statement would be "Founded on Pentecost." :)

While it has been said that Christ was born around 3 or 4 CE like you say, to most lay people, they see the birth of Christ as the "zero hour" between BCE and CE or BC and AD. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't AD loosely translate to be "The Year of Our Lord" from Latin to English?)

So to change the "founded in 33 AD" would not just be trying to change the perceptions of Orthodox Christians, but the world in general.
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: The Church That's Older Than the Orthodox Church
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2010, 11:22:32 PM »
I see Orthodox people say that Orthodoxy was founded in 33AD.

Ha! Aren't you familiar with the way a "sacred history" works? It's called smoothing over the edges and constructing an ideal past.

Offline Cymbyz

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Re: The Church That's Older Than the Orthodox Church
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2010, 12:16:53 AM »
...or, as I like to say, a myth is as good as a mile.
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Offline St. Christopher

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Re: The Church That's Older Than the Orthodox Church
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2010, 04:55:29 PM »
I don't see how the Church could have been started before AD 32.  Luke 3:1 says that John started his ministry 15 years after the beginning of Emperor Tiberius's reign.  That would place its beginning in AD 29.  If Christ's ministry was three years, the Church started in AD 32 or 33.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Church That's Older Than the Orthodox Church
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2010, 05:03:58 PM »
It makes us look like we are bound to whatever was taught in the past, and unable to cope with evidence that we were wrong. Was tradition given to man for his benefit, or was man given to tradition to be it's slave?

Are you aware of how much historians of ancient history would like to have a date pinpointed for any event within a decade (as opposed to decades), let alone 4 years or so?
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Offline ytterbiumanalyst

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Re: The Church That's Older Than the Orthodox Church
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2010, 08:00:55 PM »
What a silly question. Everyone knows the Church was founded on October 8, 33 CE, at exactly 4:32 PM.
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Offline genesisone

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Re: The Church That's Older Than the Orthodox Church
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2010, 08:07:14 PM »
What a silly question. Everyone knows the Church was founded on October 8, 33 CE, at exactly 4:32 PM.
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: The Church That's Older Than the Orthodox Church
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2010, 08:55:20 PM »
I don't see how the Church could have been started before AD 32.  Luke 3:1 says that John started his ministry 15 years after the beginning of Emperor Tiberius's reign.  That would place its beginning in AD 29.  If Christ's ministry was three years, the Church started in AD 32 or 33.

So the Church wasn't wrong. The Scripture just contradicts itself. *shrugs* ok :)

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Re: The Church That's Older Than the Orthodox Church
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2010, 09:33:55 PM »
I don't see how the Church could have been started before AD 32.  Luke 3:1 says that John started his ministry 15 years after the beginning of Emperor Tiberius's reign.  That would place its beginning in AD 29.  If Christ's ministry was three years, the Church started in AD 32 or 33.

So the Church wasn't wrong. The Scripture just contradicts itself. *shrugs* ok :)
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Offline Ebor

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Re: The Church That's Older Than the Orthodox Church
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2010, 09:38:07 PM »
Sometimes we are slaves to "accuracy" for its own sake.

 ???

If accuracy is getting what is true and real information, what is wrong with that, please?

Ebor
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Offline Cymbyz

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Re: The Church That's Older Than the Orthodox Church
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2010, 10:05:50 PM »
Nothing wrong with the facts, but fact and truth are not always the same thing.
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Offline Ebor

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Re: The Church That's Older Than the Orthodox Church
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2010, 10:09:31 PM »
Could you please expand a bit on what you mean?  Thank you in advance

Ebor
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Offline genesisone

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Re: The Church That's Older Than the Orthodox Church
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2010, 09:15:57 AM »
I'm not Cymbyz, but I think I understand what he's saying. Think of our iconography: not always historically accurate, but always spiritually true.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Church That's Older Than the Orthodox Church
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2010, 10:09:32 AM »
Could you please expand a bit on what you mean?  Thank you in advance

Ebor

An example would be the icons of the Ascension and Pentacost compared:


You'll note that the Theotokos stands in the center of the Ascension (though scripture does not indicate her presense), but note her absence in Pentacost (through scripture tells us her presence in the upper room).  Her she stands as the icon of the Church, the physical presence of Christ left in the world, his body.  Hence why she stands in a column under her Son: as long as the Church remains in the world, so does Christ.  At Pentacost, the Apostles are in a circle with a gap at their head, signifying the conciliar nature of the Church through its episcopacy, who embody the presence of Christ (I've also heard that the absence of the Theotokos denotes the male/fatherly (versus motherly) characteristic of the hierarchy: I'm not sure anyone would have even thought that in question enough way back when to point that out.  Similarly, the gap also shows our objection to Vatican ecclesiology, but I doubt that the need to combat Ultramontanism would have necessitated expression at such an early date).  Note that St. Paul sits as one of the 12, certainly ahistorical, but true: St. Paul's credentials of Aposteship match those of the 12 disciples, just as those in the episcopacy after Christ's earthly mission, i.e. the bishops who succeed the Apostles until He come back, sit in Council as peers with the Apostles.  The absence of the Theotokos here underlines the dogamtic constitution of the Church as a hiearchal institution, as opposed to an ad hoc collection of believers in Jesus.

btw, compare the icon of Mid-Pentacost

and aberations of the Pentacost icon, out of concerns for "historicity" or undue hyperdulia/Mariolatry at the expense of truth

« Last Edit: May 19, 2010, 10:23:53 AM by ialmisry »
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: The Church That's Older Than the Orthodox Church
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2010, 05:43:14 PM »
It makes us look like we are bound to whatever was taught in the past, and unable to cope with evidence that we were wrong. Was tradition given to man for his benefit, or was man given to tradition to be it's slave?

This thought is an example of what I call the "They're All Going To Laugh At You If You Believe That" school. It is interesting that the disciples of this school take up issues such as historical accuracy and certain scientific issues like evolution, but still profess to believe in the Virgin birth of Christ, or that Christ is true God and man, or that bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ. Believing in these things, which to the rest of the world (the unbelievers) are ridiculous fables and fancies, I find non-dogmatic reliance on a particular dating system for the sake of convenience and tradition to be a trivial matter. We believe in what are, to the unbelievers, far stranger things. Besides, if we get undone because of what certain ignorami might think of us, then we have become slaves of a harsher master than historical convention.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: The Church That's Older Than the Orthodox Church
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2010, 10:07:41 PM »
Sometimes we are slaves to "accuracy" for its own sake.

 ???

If accuracy is getting what is true and real information, what is wrong with that, please?

If this thirst for "accuracy" leads us to get bent out of shape over trivia that have no bearing on the truth of the Gospel, then it is founded on passions and not on a genuine thirst for Truth.

Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: The Church That's Older Than the Orthodox Church
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2010, 11:12:04 PM »
I don't see how the Church could have been started before AD 32.  Luke 3:1 says that John started his ministry 15 years after the beginning of Emperor Tiberius's reign.  That would place its beginning in AD 29.  If Christ's ministry was three years, the Church started in AD 32 or 33.

So the Church wasn't wrong. The Scripture just contradicts itself. *shrugs* ok :)

 Remember, The Church gave us The Scriptures and it is The Church that explains The Scriptures.  Your last sentence is a Protestant mode of thinking.
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Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Re: The Church That's Older Than the Orthodox Church
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2010, 11:16:27 PM »
Sometimes we are slaves to "accuracy" for its own sake.

 ???

If accuracy is getting what is true and real information, what is wrong with that, please?

Ebor

 What is "true and real information", please?  Secular scientists will scoff at Christian "truths" so, who is correct?  I'm sure you see what I'm getting at.  Why, even Anglican's/Episcopalians have a different concept of "true and real information" which probably isn't a discussion you'd care to enter into.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2010, 11:20:51 PM by GabrieltheCelt »
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Offline Entscheidungsproblem

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Re: The Church That's Older Than the Orthodox Church
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2010, 12:21:03 AM »
What is "true and real information", please?  Secular scientists will scoff at Christian "truths" so, who is correct? 
The secular scientists.  ;)  :laugh:
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Offline Ebor

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Re: The Church That's Older Than the Orthodox Church
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2010, 09:19:49 PM »
Sometimes we are slaves to "accuracy" for its own sake.

 ???

If accuracy is getting what is true and real information, what is wrong with that, please?

Ebor

 What is "true and real information", please?  Secular scientists will scoff at Christian "truths" so, who is correct?  I'm sure you see what I'm getting at.  Why, even Anglican's/Episcopalians have a different concept of "true and real information" which probably isn't a discussion you'd care to enter into.

No, to be frank, I don't see what you are getting at, though the dig at my Church is fairly clear but not applicable in what I was thinking.   "True and real information" can be things like real people and dates and places and information about history that has a basis in verifiable accounts or primary sources.  Historical events really happened in particular times and places and that can be true while saying that something that did not happen actually did would not be true. 

With respect,

Ebor 
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Offline Ebor

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Re: The Church That's Older Than the Orthodox Church
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2010, 09:22:46 PM »
Sometimes we are slaves to "accuracy" for its own sake.

 ???

If accuracy is getting what is true and real information, what is wrong with that, please?

If this thirst for "accuracy" leads us to get bent out of shape over trivia that have no bearing on the truth of the Gospel, then it is founded on passions and not on a genuine thirst for Truth.

Wanting "accuracy" can counter error as well.  Sometimes it's not "trivia" but may be quite important in establishing the reality of something such as, for example the writing of the Gospels to earlier rather than later dates.
"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Church That's Older Than the Orthodox Church
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2010, 09:38:04 PM »
What is "true and real information", please?  Secular scientists will scoff at Christian "truths" so, who is correct? 
The secular scientists.  ;)  :laugh:
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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