Author Topic: Cross tattoo  (Read 18983 times)

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Offline fennik

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Cross tattoo
« on: April 12, 2005, 12:03:45 AM »
You guys think a tattoo of a cross is on your body is wrong?
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2005, 12:17:01 AM »
Yes, I do think its wrong... good intention, bad execution.
"O Cross of Christ, all-holy, thrice-blessed, and life-giving, instrument of the mystical rites of Zion, the holy Altar for the service of our Great Archpriest, the blessing - the weapon - the strength of priests, our pride, our consolation, the light in our hearts, our mind, and our steps"
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Offline Bogoliubtsy

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2005, 12:30:44 AM »
You guys think a tattoo of a cross is on your body is wrong?

Nope.
"When you give food to the poor, they call you a saint. When you ask why the poor have no food, they call you a communist". - Archbishop Hélder Pessoa Câmara

Offline fennik

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2005, 12:34:57 AM »
Well the cross represents Gods love for you and everyone, enough love to have his only son crusified so that we can be saved.
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Offline Robert

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2005, 01:06:45 AM »
Depends on if you're female, attractive, and if it's in the right location.
 :thumbsup:

Offline EkhristosAnesti

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2005, 01:36:09 AM »
Well if you haven't heard the Coptic Orthodox tattoo cross story, here it is succintly:

It was compulsory government (Islamic) policy; that all Egyptian Copts have their right wrist tattood in order that they may be easily identified and distinguished as the kaffirs amongst the Muslims. It replaced a former method whereby the Copts had to wear very large crosses around their necks (weighing up to 50 pounds), which gave them the nickname "blue bones" (3adma zarqa) amongst the Muslims, because the cord of the cross would bruise the clavicle bones.

Whilst the Islamic government's imposition of the cross tattoo was short lived, it became a sign of solidarity, and hence Copts up until today have willingly got them, for the purpose of distinguishing themselves as "kaffirs 4 Christ" in an unfaithful world, and in remembrance of what our ancestors had to go through.

Then again, there are those who simply get it to look "cool".....unfortunately....

Peace
« Last Edit: April 12, 2005, 01:40:21 AM by EkhristosAnesti »
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Offline MsGuided

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2005, 07:11:52 AM »
Well if you haven't heard the Coptic Orthodox tattoo cross story, here it is succintly:

An Armenian friend of mine has this as well.
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Offline ania

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2005, 09:55:30 AM »
I think it's fine if done for the right intention.  (Have thought of it myself several times, as I tend to loose the crosses that I wear around my neck.)
Now where were we? Oh yeah - the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn’t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...

Offline Salpy

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2005, 10:49:14 PM »
It is customary among Armenians to get cross tattoos when visiting Jerusalem.  M᠍y great grandmother had one on the back of her hand.

There is an interesting story about these religious tattoos in my family:

My grandmother's two first counsins, Zabel and Araxie, had tattoos of the Face of Christ put on their arms as small children when they visited Jerusalem, before the Genocide.  During the Genocide, they were separated after their parents were killed.  Zabel wound up in an orphanage and eventually joined her relatives in the United States as an adult.  Araxie was taken in and adopted by a Turkish family, who did not want to see her killed.

For years after the Genocide people would send letters to Armenian churches all over the world looking for lost relatives. The letters went something like "My name is _______.  My parents' names were _____.  I am from the village of _________. etc."  These letters would be read after the Liturgy and people would stay and listen to them to see if they could find lost relatives.  One day Zabel, who was living in the Eastern United States at the time, heard a letter from a woman who sounded like she could be her sister.  She wrote back to the woman, saying "Tell me nothing else about yourself, just draw a picture of what is on your arm and send it to me."  The woman sent Zabel the picture of the Face of Christ which was on both their arms.  The two of them were thus reunited.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 02:05:06 AM by Salpy »

Offline Justinian

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2005, 12:36:50 AM »
I have an IC XC NIKA with a cross tattooed on my left arm, a three bar slvonic cross tattooed on my right forearm and a byzantine eagle elbem tattooed on my right shoulder. I also heard somewhere about Russian Orthodox Christians melting down tires and tattooing themselves with religous images with the rubber in the gulags. And St. Czar Nicholas II has dragons tattooed on botha rms. So i cant see it ebing wrong...........

In XC,
Justinian
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Offline Stavro

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2005, 01:16:09 AM »
It is customary among Armenians to get cross tattoos when visiting Jerusalem.  My great grandmother had one on the back of her hand. 

There is an interesting story about these religious tattoos in my family:

My grandmother's two first counsins, Zabel and Araxie, had tattoos of the Face of Christ put on their arms as small children when they visited Jerusalem, before the Genocide.  During the Genocide, they were separated after their parents were killed.  Zabel wound up in an orphanage and eventually joined her relatives in the United States as an adult.  Araxie was taken in and adopted by a Turkish family, who did not want to see her killed.

For years after the Genocide people would send letters to Armenian churches all over the world looking for lost relatives.  The letters went something like "My name is _______.  My parents' names were _____.  I am from the village of _________. etc."  These letters would be read after the Liturgy and people would stay and listen to them to see if they could find lost relatives.  One day Zabel, who was living in the Eastern United States at the time, heard a letter from a woman who sounded like she could be her sister.  She  wrote back to the woman, saying "Tell me nothing else about yourself, just draw a picture of what is on your arm and send it to me."  The woman sent Zabel the picture of the Face of Christ which was on both their arms.  The two of them were thus reunited.
Very touching story. If you don't mind asking : Was Araxie brought up as a christian after the Turkish family adopted her ?
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Offline Salpy

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2005, 02:09:50 AM »
Unfortunately no, Araxie was not raised as a Christian.  Her adoptive parents raised her as a Muslim Turk.  From what I understand, by the time she found her sister Zabel she was already married to a Turk and had children by him.  I thus have Turkish relatives who are descended from Araxie.  I have a cousin who keeps up with them and once in a great while they visit.  A few years ago my parents and I took one of them out to a restuarant while she and her husband were visiting my cousin.

The strange thing is, although I was aware that we had Turkish relatives, I never knew the full story until about 10 years ago.

I found out about 10 years ago when Zabel died.  M᠍y mom doesn't like funerals and sent me to go in her stead.  I went, but didn't expect to feel much emotion, as I was not close to Zabel.  In fact, I kind of looked upon her as being a silly woman, a bit of a character.  When I knew her as an old woman, she used to go around in these tall, blond beehive wigs.  She was a bit nosy and I never took her very seriously.

At the funeral, my cousin (the one who keeps in touch with the Turkish relatives) got up and told the story of Zabel's life, including all the horrible things that happened during the Genocide.  She saw her parents die.  Her dad's throat was slit in front of her and her sister by Turkish soldiers after he refused to convert to Islam.  Among other things, my cousin told the story of how Zabel found her sister after so many years.

When I got home from the funeral, I confronted my mother: "WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL ME THESE THINGS?"  My mom insisted she never knew and didn't really want to discuss any of it.  It could be that Mom really didn't know.  A lot of the older people in my family didn't like discussing the Genocide or what life was like over there prior to it.  I can't describe the feeling.  It is almost like it was shameful and no one wanted to acknowledge that people in our family were victims.

I wish that I had known all these stories about Zabel before her death.  I would have taken her more seriously and not ridiculed her beehive wig.  After all she went through, she deserved to wear whatever she wanted on her head!  In any case, it taught me to never judge a book by its cover.  If I had taken her seriously and sat down and talked with her, I get the feeling I would have been greatly enriched.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 01:53:26 AM by Salpy »

Offline Stavro

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2005, 05:01:39 AM »
It is enriching indeed,Salpy. God bless you and your family and all your relatives.
In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)

" God forbid I should see the face of Judah or listen to his blasphemy" (Gerontius, Archmanidrite of the monastery of St. Melania)

Offline Quinault

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2009, 07:31:17 PM »
Wow, that is an amazing story Salpy.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2009, 07:55:11 PM »
You guys think a tattoo of a cross is on your body is wrong?

A streetkid-solvent abuser has lived on our church premises for many years.  It's a long story - a lifetime of physical and sexual abuse from his "fathers" in multiple foster homes.  In other words, more sinned against than sinning.

Some years back I wanted to get him a birthday present - his name is Nicholas and he was born on Saint Nicholas day.  In the past any presents, such as walkmans, have been stolen from him by his street "friends" within a few hours.

He loves Irish things and he is a Christian in his own way, comes to church venerates the icons, says his prayers.  So I got him a present that couldn't be lost - a tattoo of a Celtic cross on his forearm.  He loves it -and there is the odd advantage pointed out to me by a policeman that if he is ever hit by a bus or burnt in a derelict house they can use the cross to identify him!

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2009, 03:41:03 AM »
So I got him a present that couldn't be lost - a tattoo of a Celtic cross on his forearm.  He loves it -and there is the odd advantage pointed out to me by a policeman that if he is ever hit by a bus or burnt in a derelict house they can use the cross to identify him!

Father, do you think purchasing a tattoo for someone is an appropriate way of showing pastoral concern?  The cost of the tattoo could have been used to feed and clothe Nicholas.

Offline Riddikulus

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2009, 03:59:27 AM »
So I got him a present that couldn't be lost - a tattoo of a Celtic cross on his forearm.  He loves it -and there is the odd advantage pointed out to me by a policeman that if he is ever hit by a bus or burnt in a derelict house they can use the cross to identify him!

Father, do you think purchasing a tattoo for someone is an appropriate way of showing pastoral concern?  The cost of the tattoo could have been used to feed and clothe Nicholas.

Why would you assume that the purchase of the cross tattoo excludes Fr Ambrose from also feeding and clothing Nicholas?
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Offline Riddikulus

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2009, 04:00:17 AM »
You guys think a tattoo of a cross is on your body is wrong?

No, I don't see anything wrong with it.
I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2009, 04:02:43 AM »
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline Riddikulus

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2009, 04:05:31 AM »
^nor do I (but then, I have one!)

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11476.msg155633.html#msg155633

I sort of fancy a Celtic Cross tattoo for myself, but as I'm a bit long in the tooth, I feel it might be a bit silly.  :laugh:
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Offline Quinault

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2009, 04:44:25 AM »
So I got him a present that couldn't be lost - a tattoo of a Celtic cross on his forearm.  He loves it -and there is the odd advantage pointed out to me by a policeman that if he is ever hit by a bus or burnt in a derelict house they can use the cross to identify him!

Father, do you think purchasing a tattoo for someone is an appropriate way of showing pastoral concern?  The cost of the tattoo could have been used to feed and clothe Nicholas.

Actually being a former street kid myself I would say a tattoo is ideal. It can't be stolen or sold for drugs. And since it is a cross it is a good reminder of the love of God shown him thru one of God's servants. Street kids are quite adept at getting fed, I know from experience. :) You would be amazed at what people throw away.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 04:45:19 AM by Quinault »

Offline Quinault

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2009, 04:46:29 AM »

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2009, 05:22:59 AM »
So I got him a present that couldn't be lost - a tattoo of a Celtic cross on his forearm.  He loves it -and there is the odd advantage pointed out to me by a policeman that if he is ever hit by a bus or burnt in a derelict house they can use the cross to identify him!

Father, do you think purchasing a tattoo for someone is an appropriate way of showing pastoral concern?  The cost of the tattoo could have been used to feed and clothe Nicholas.

Not at all.  I've fed and clothed and housed Nick for about 2 decades, as well as helping other street people.  I live in the central city in the rundown area and there are lots of needs and demands.  Kind of overwhelming at times.

The cross means a lot to him.  Very few people are kind to him or show him any affection.  The cross is a tangible way of saying that someone cares.

I think we should not apply a too forensic standard to the charitable use of our money.   People will always spend money on Christmas and birthday presents for family and friends.  Many people come to Baptisms with gold crosses for their godchild, purchased at the local Greek shop.  Such crosses can be more expensive that the tattoo. They could feed several families for a fortnight.  But it would be really rude to suggest to them that it would have been a better pastoral use to give the money to the soup kitchen. 

Ditto goes for the enormously expensive vestments and crosses and panagias worn by bishops and priests.  I remember that one set of vestments for a visit to Moscow for Metropolitan Herman cost $23,000 !!  A couple of hundred dollars for a very nice Celtic cross seems quite reasonable.   :)

Offline Irish Hermit

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Offline Quinault

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2009, 05:35:10 AM »
Click on the link to see his tattoo.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2009, 05:39:06 AM »
Click on the link to see his tattoo.

I saw the IC XC Cross but I was looking for a double-headed eagle?

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2009, 06:07:47 AM »
Well if you haven't heard the Coptic Orthodox tattoo cross story, here it is succintly:

It was compulsory government (Islamic) policy; that all Egyptian Copts have their right wrist tattood in order that they may be easily identified and distinguished as the kaffirs amongst the Muslims. It replaced a former method whereby the Copts had to wear very large crosses around their necks (weighing up to 50 pounds), which gave them the nickname "blue bones" (3adma zarqa) amongst the Muslims, because the cord of the cross would bruise the clavicle bones.

Whilst the Islamic government's imposition of the cross tattoo was short lived, it became a sign of solidarity, and hence Copts up until today have willingly got them, for the purpose of distinguishing themselves as "kaffirs 4 Christ" in an unfaithful world, and in remembrance of what our ancestors had to go through.

Then again, there are those who simply get it to look "cool".....unfortunately....

Peace

The Copts had their hands branded with a cross when they paid their jizya poll tax, to show you paid (it also marked you for lynching). When the muslims stopped doing it, the Copts started, of their own volition, tattoo themselves on the hand with a cross. A Copt showing me his Cross pointed out "the muslims some are from Saudi Arabia. They are a foreigner here. Some their grandfather was Copt but converted. They belong here, but they are weak. My grandfather and his grandfather [pointing to the Cross on his own hand] were strong. This is the proof that they were strong. Ever since the time of the Apostles, every generation until today, my ancestors were willing to die for this. I am willing to die for this." Talk about cool.  Not an empty fear in Egypt nowadays.

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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2009, 12:00:52 PM »
Not at all.  I've fed and clothed and housed Nick for about 2 decades, as well as helping other street people.  I live in the central city in the rundown area and there are lots of needs and demands.  Kind of overwhelming at times.

The cross means a lot to him.  Very few people are kind to him or show him any affection.  The cross is a tangible way of saying that someone cares.

Father, while you care deeply for Nick, do you feel that a tattoo allows Nick to be closer to Christ?

I think we should not apply a too forensic standard to the charitable use of our money.   People will always spend money on Christmas and birthday presents for family and friends.  Many people come to Baptisms with gold crosses for their godchild, purchased at the local Greek shop.  Such crosses can be more expensive that the tattoo. They could feed several families for a fortnight.  But it would be really rude to suggest to them that it would have been a better pastoral use to give the money to the soup kitchen.

I don't feel that supporting the poor is a rude idea.  I was in a similar position as Nick and my Priest didn't take me to the local tattoo parlor so I could feel better about myself.  Some times, the little things count more than the big things.  While I admit that we are going to disagree on tattoos, man cannot live on ink alone.   :D

Ditto goes for the enormously expensive vestments and crosses and panagias worn by bishops and priests.  I remember that one set of vestments for a visit to Moscow for Metropolitan Herman cost $23,000 !!  A couple of hundred dollars for a very nice Celtic cross seems quite reasonable.   :)

A couple of hundred dollars also purchases warm clothes and a couple of warm meals.

If the cost of making Hierarchical vestments is $23,000, consider the price of gold and the price of the expertise to make such a vestment.  Not many people are making Hierarchical vestments in their homes these days....

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2009, 02:46:17 PM »
Not at all.  I've fed and clothed and housed Nick for about 2 decades, as well as helping other street people.  I live in the central city in the rundown area and there are lots of needs and demands.  Kind of overwhelming at times.

The cross means a lot to him.  Very few people are kind to him or show him any affection.  The cross is a tangible way of saying that someone cares.

Father, while you care deeply for Nick, do you feel that a tattoo allows Nick to be closer to Christ?

I think we should not apply a too forensic standard to the charitable use of our money.   People will always spend money on Christmas and birthday presents for family and friends.  Many people come to Baptisms with gold crosses for their godchild, purchased at the local Greek shop.  Such crosses can be more expensive that the tattoo. They could feed several families for a fortnight.  But it would be really rude to suggest to them that it would have been a better pastoral use to give the money to the soup kitchen.

I don't feel that supporting the poor is a rude idea.  I was in a similar position as Nick and my Priest didn't take me to the local tattoo parlor so I could feel better about myself.  Some times, the little things count more than the big things.  While I admit that we are going to disagree on tattoos, man cannot live on ink alone.

Or bread alone.
Ditto goes for the enormously expensive vestments and crosses and panagias worn by bishops and priests.  I remember that one set of vestments for a visit to Moscow for Metropolitan Herman cost $23,000 !!  A couple of hundred dollars for a very nice Celtic cross seems quite reasonable.   :)

A couple of hundred dollars also purchases warm clothes and a couple of warm meals.

If the cost of making Hierarchical vestments is $23,000, consider the price of gold and the price of the expertise to make such a vestment.  Not many people are making Hierarchical vestments in their homes these days....

This is the same mentality I'm afraid that imposed the luxury tax on yachts in the early 90's.  The result?  The industry collapsed, and brought down whole economies in the North East.  In other words, you had more poor to buy warm clothes and warm meals for.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 02:46:52 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2009, 04:40:44 PM »
Father, while you care deeply for Nick, do you feel that a tattoo allows Nick to be closer to Christ?

Dear SolEX01,

God knows.    I've given away dozens and dozens of icon prints.  Whether the recipients are brought closer to Christ, I do not know.  But I'll go on giving them out anyway.

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2009, 04:53:40 PM »
I don't feel that supporting the poor is a rude idea.

I never said that supporting the poor was a rude idea.  What a thought!   What I said was that it would be rude to tell a man who has purchased an expensive gold cross for the baptism of his godchild that he was not showing enough pastoral sense and he should have given the money to the soup kitchen instead.  A bit like you are telling me about this tattoo of Nicholas.

Quote
I was in a similar position as Nick and my Priest didn't take me to the local tattoo parlor so I could feel better about myself.  Some times, the little things count more than the big things. 

Nick has lived on church premises for 20 years.    Under the stairs in an old house beside the church which accommodates Russian shipjumpers and refugees.

I don't understand why this matter is of so much concern?   Why are you placing me on the backfoot and implying that I did something wrong and un-Christian and not what your priest would do?  Surely you must have given a person a gift?

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2009, 06:07:55 PM »
Father, while you care deeply for Nick, do you feel that a tattoo allows Nick to be closer to Christ?

Dear SolEX01,

God knows.    I've given away dozens and dozens of icon prints.  Whether the recipients are brought closer to Christ, I do not know.  But I'll go on giving them out anyway.

Father, tattoos or icon prints or both?

Anyway, my Priest handed my estranged wife and me an icon print as well at the 40 day blessing of our son.  Six months later when I was down and out and despondent, I was ashamed to speak with him.  However, I do not have a permanent mark on my body just as I do not have the icon Print.  I do not understand why there is a need to inflict pain, like the tattooing process, to supposedly bring one closer to Christ?   ???

Offline Quinault

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2009, 06:10:19 PM »
"inflict pain"

He didn't FORCE the kid to have a tattoo, he obviously wanted it.

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2009, 06:11:45 PM »
Pain is in the body of each person. My septum piercing didn't hurt much to me, but many people think it is awful.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2009, 06:14:03 PM »
I never said that supporting the poor was a rude idea.  What a thought!   What I said was that it would be rude to tell a man who has purchased an expensive gold cross for the baptism of his godchild that he was not showing enough pastoral sense and he should have given the money to the soup kitchen instead.  A bit like you are telling me about this tattoo of Nicholas.

Father, I lost my baptismal cross and it was sterling silver rather than gold on the few occasions that I saw the cross as a child.

While a wooden, marble, etc. baptismal cross would serve the same spiritual purpose as gold or silver, we know that Christ in the manger received gift of gold which is symbolic enough and does not require pastoral concern

Nick has lived on church premises for 20 years.    Under the stairs in an old house beside the church which accommodates Russian shipjumpers and refugees.

I don't understand why this matter is of so much concern?   Why are you placing me on the backfoot and implying that I did something wrong and un-Christian and not what your priest would do?  Surely you must have given a person a gift?

We are on topic discussing the OP's appropriateness of having a tattoo and your admission on buying a tattoo for someone.  All I asked if it was appropriate to purchase a tattoo as a pastoral concern.  Nothing more.

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2009, 06:15:44 PM »
"inflict pain"

He didn't FORCE the kid to have a tattoo, he obviously wanted it.

The kid wanted the tattoo and Father Ambrose paid for said tattoo; Hence, Father Ambrose directly financed the infliction of pain on someone else.

Edited for clarification.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 06:21:41 PM by SolEX01 »

Offline Veniamin

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2009, 06:24:14 PM »
"inflict pain"

He didn't FORCE the kid to have a tattoo, he obviously wanted it.

The kid wanted the tattoo and Father Ambrose paid for said tattoo; Hence, Father Ambrose directly financed the infliction of pain on someone else.

Edited for clarification.

I'm sure if the kid had needed surgery and Irish Hermit had paid for said surgery, you'd be here telling us that he directly financed the dissection of someone else.

 ::)

Give it a rest, already.
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Offline Quinault

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2009, 06:29:05 PM »
My godparents wanted to get me a gold cross. I hate yellow gold so I insisted on a silver one. But even silver crosses for an adult are pretty expensive.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2009, 06:29:42 PM »
I'm sure if the kid had needed surgery and Irish Hermit had paid for said surgery, you'd be here telling us that he directly financed the dissection of someone else.

Depends on the surgery ... Anyway, nice try.   ;D

::)

Give it a rest, already.

Give it a rest?  Is it OK for Orthodox Clergy to finance the purchase of tattoos, which require the infliction of pain, as part of Orthodox Christian ministry?   ???

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2009, 06:30:24 PM »
My good friend finds getting a tattoo relaxing rather than very painful actually.

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2009, 06:31:20 PM »
Did I not get the edict on how pain is un-Orthodox in nature?

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2009, 06:33:19 PM »
I would say that Orthodox clergy need to look at each person as an individual. Fr. Ambrose did exactly that. It isn't like he said he takes every young man to the tattoo parlor at the age of "x" and gives them a tattoo as a gift.

Really, give it a rest. This is looking more like a vendetta than a concern to  me.

Offline Veniamin

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #42 on: March 05, 2009, 06:35:41 PM »
I'm sure if the kid had needed surgery and Irish Hermit had paid for said surgery, you'd be here telling us that he directly financed the dissection of someone else.

Depends on the surgery ... Anyway, nice try.   ;D

::)

Give it a rest, already.

Give it a rest?  Is it OK for Orthodox Clergy to finance the purchase of tattoos, which require the infliction of pain, as part of Orthodox Christian ministry?   ???

Since when is anything involving pain automatically evil?  Surgery involves pain.  Healing often involves pain.  Growing involves pain.  Why are you on a witch-hunt over something as trivial as a tattoo?  If that's what Irish Hermit believed would connect with the man in question and it apparently did reach him, why are you wasting time attacking him for it?  Aren't there more pressing things to be concerned with?
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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2009, 06:38:27 PM »
^And don't knock Cross tattoos  >:(
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2009, 06:41:10 PM »
Why not add skull at the bottom of the Cross Tattoo? 
Courteous is my name,
and I have always aimed to live up to it.
Grace is also my name,
but when things go wrong
its Courteous whom I blame;
but its Grace who sees me through it.

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #45 on: March 05, 2009, 07:22:42 PM »
Father, while you care deeply for Nick, do you feel that a tattoo allows Nick to be closer to Christ?

Dear SolEX01,

God knows.    I've given away dozens and dozens of icon prints.  Whether the recipients are brought closer to Christ, I do not know.  But I'll go on giving them out anyway.

Father, tattoos or icon prints or both?


Sol,

You don't seem to be following this thread very well. Father Ambrose not only gave this man a tattoo and icons, but also food and clothing. Time to back off, I think as you have become emotional about this issue. Just my thoughts on it.

Quote
Anyway, my Priest handed my estranged wife and me an icon print as well at the 40 day blessing of our son.  Six months later when I was down and out and despondent, I was ashamed to speak with him.  However, I do not have a permanent mark on my body just as I do not have the icon Print.  I do not understand why there is a need to inflict pain, like the tattooing process, to supposedly bring one closer to Christ?   ???

The tattoo was given so that Nicholas wouldn't lose the gift; the pain of the gift he chose of his own freewill; no one forced him. And why do you seem to doubt that a tattoo could bring someone closer to Christ?
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 07:26:22 PM by Riddikulus »
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Offline Riddikulus

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #46 on: March 05, 2009, 07:29:30 PM »
I'm sure if the kid had needed surgery and Irish Hermit had paid for said surgery, you'd be here telling us that he directly financed the dissection of someone else.

Depends on the surgery ... Anyway, nice try.   ;D

::)

Give it a rest, already.

Give it a rest?  Is it OK for Orthodox Clergy to finance the purchase of tattoos, which require the infliction of pain, as part of Orthodox Christian ministry?   ???

I would say, yes it is. Nicholas got want he wanted; he's happy with his *painful* tattoo, so why are you exhibiting so much angst?
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2009, 07:57:55 PM »
Vendetta & witch-hunt....

A lot of strong words are being thrown around this thread and not one word has deviated from the thread's topic.

So, I keep the angst to myself and try to understand why a tattoo is appropriate when purchased by a clergyman.

Quote from: Veniamin
Since when is anything involving pain automatically evil?  Surgery involves pain.  Healing often involves pain.  Growing involves pain.  Why are you on a witch-hunt over something as trivial as a tattoo?  If that's what Irish Hermit believed would connect with the man in question and it apparently did reach him, why are you wasting time attacking him for it?  Aren't there more pressing things to be concerned with?

When did I say that anything involving pain was automatically evil?  In a prior response, I was going to mention the pain of childbirth until I realized that seeing the joy of a woman holding a newborn baby exceeds the pain experienced by the woman to give birth to said baby.

Of course there are more pressing things which merit concern and angst.  I am only one person; I find Father Ambrose's purchase of a tattoo troubling.  Since the rest of you apparently agree that there is no problem, I am saddened.   :(  The following passage from the Thoughts in Christ Bulletin parallel my sentiments on this thread:

Quote
....We can go on indefinitely ignoring, justifying, and living with what conflicts with our consciences.  Never before has a civilization provided as many gadgets that draw us away from our scruples.  We have electronic and chemical devices which will put us in touch with anywhere on the planet except with that nook in our hearts that whispers to us who we really are and who we ought to be.

"Many passions lie hidden in our souls," writes St. Maximus (4:52).  Just to live in these times of confusion, turmoil and ongoing reevaluation of values is to appreciate how difficult it is for any of us to hold fast to the gospel teachings of Jesus Christ and to live by them.  There are those putting on all the trappings of a civilization out to scandalize traditional values -- the wild hair, the tattoos, the body pierced in so many areas, the raucous syncopated noise and bizarre costumes passing for clothing -- all of it demeaning, banal and all so obvious that what they intend to be shocking is but the uniform of a herd mentality for those without originality.  It causes me to cherish all the more those who have the soundness of mind to resist all of that.

Precious to me are those who serve as humble role models for others, who by their life styles, attitudes, courtesies and kindness make clear their intentions to cherish their brief years on earth serving the God who creates and sustains them by doing His will in His world.

Offline Veniamin

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2009, 08:05:37 PM »
And that has what to do with yet another of your bizarre crusades?
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2009, 08:14:40 PM »
And that has what to do with yet another of your bizarre crusades?

What have you established by referring to my content as a "bizarre crusade?"

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2009, 08:16:36 PM »
And that has what to do with yet another of your bizarre crusades?

What have you established by referring to my content as a "bizarre crusade?"

What have you established by conducting said bizarre crusade?
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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2009, 08:19:41 PM »
Vendetta & witch-hunt....

A lot of strong words are being thrown around this thread and not one word has deviated from the thread's topic.

So, I keep the angst to myself and try to understand why a tattoo is appropriate when purchased by a clergyman.

Quote from: Veniamin
Since when is anything involving pain automatically evil?  Surgery involves pain.  Healing often involves pain.  Growing involves pain.  Why are you on a witch-hunt over something as trivial as a tattoo?  If that's what Irish Hermit believed would connect with the man in question and it apparently did reach him, why are you wasting time attacking him for it?  Aren't there more pressing things to be concerned with?

When did I say that anything involving pain was automatically evil?  In a prior response, I was going to mention the pain of childbirth until I realized that seeing the joy of a woman holding a newborn baby exceeds the pain experienced by the woman to give birth to said baby.

Of course there are more pressing things which merit concern and angst.  I am only one person; I find Father Ambrose's purchase of a tattoo troubling.  Since the rest of you apparently agree that there is no problem, I am saddened.   :( 

Sol,

I don't understand why you would be saddened that people are disagreeing with you; unless you are placing more importance upon one opinion over the other. What we have here is nothing more than a group of people with different concepts of what is acceptable. This conflict of opinion is nothing to get excited about, as far as I can see. Unless, of course, one is unable to allow people the freedom to do what they believe is acceptable even if one disagrees.
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2009, 08:21:27 PM »
What have you established by saying that I have allegedly conducted said bizarre crusade?

Friend, you don't like me for whatever reasons, my content, my Jurisdiction, my appearance, my presence on this board.  That's OK.  May God Bless You and sanctify you in all that you do.  Amen!

Offline Veniamin

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2009, 08:23:03 PM »
May God Bless You and sanctify you in all that you do.  Amen!

Sweet!  I'm going to get a priest to pay for me to get a tattoo! :laugh:
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2009, 08:25:20 PM »
Sol,

I don't understand why you would be saddened that people are disagreeing with you; unless you are placing more importance upon one opinion over the other. What we have here is nothing more than a group of people with different concepts of what is acceptable.

Well, different concepts of what is acceptable has resulted in big trouble for some people here.  When content is referred to as a "bizarre crusade" then I have to draw the line somewhere.

This conflict of opinion is nothing to get excited about, as far as I can see. Unless, of course, one is unable to allow people the freedom to do what they believe is acceptable even if one disagrees.

Each is responsible for his/her actions.  Some have learned the hard way.  I am one of those people.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2009, 08:26:35 PM »
May God Bless You and sanctify you in all that you do.  Amen!
Sweet!  I'm going to get a priest to pay for me to get a tattoo! :laugh:

Me, a Priest?   ???  :o  ::)

You may not like me but you're funny.   ;D

Offline Myrrh23

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #56 on: March 05, 2009, 08:39:20 PM »
SolEX, there's more to it than the pain. There was more to Christ's suffering and dying on a Cross than the pain. It has to do with what is behind the action, and the intent of Fr. Ambrose's action was love. He stated that Nicholas' a-hole friends stole any presents of his within even a few hours. I believe a tattoo of the symbol of Christ's love from a priest who has given his own love for 2 decades is an appropriate priestly gesture of love because Fr. Ambrose was not acting in the role of a priest, but a Christian brother. Perhaps he has helped bring Nicholas closer to Christ by giving him a constant visible reminder of the One who has given the Ultimate Love through the Cross. It's kinda like the Catholic gesture of marking one's forehead, lips and heart with the sign of the Cross. Only in this case, Nicholas got a mark on the wrist! ;D
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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #57 on: March 05, 2009, 11:21:45 PM »

Just to remark that part of our lack of mutual understanding may be cultural.  I live in the South Pacific where tattoos are a significant part of the local cultures, whether Maori or Samoan or other Polynesian cultures.   They are very common.  Nobody is offended by them and they do not denote that one is a member of the underworld or of the criminal classes.   :)

Here is a tattoo very similar to Nick's, except his is smaller and on his forearm.



Offline Veniamin

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #58 on: March 05, 2009, 11:34:03 PM »
You may not like me but you're funny.   ;D

I don't dislike you personally.  I just don't put much stock in a lot of what you have to say.  There's a difference there.
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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #59 on: March 05, 2009, 11:49:29 PM »
Cool tattoo Fr. Ambrose.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2009, 11:49:47 PM by Quinault »

Offline Byzantine2008

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #60 on: March 06, 2009, 12:04:01 AM »
I am impressed OzGeorge you surprised me. :)

Nice tattoo..

I might also get one similar to yours in the near future.


God willing of course :)
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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #61 on: March 06, 2009, 12:15:40 AM »
closer to Christ by giving him a constant visible reminder of the One who has given the Ultimate Love through the Cross.

Yes, Myrrh, you're right.  Nick had a Christian upbringing in one of his foster homes (Anglican).    He has been known to break into tears when he looks at the crosses in the church... "They pinned him up on a cross.  He died for us.  We ignore him."

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #62 on: March 06, 2009, 12:33:41 AM »
I don't dislike you personally.  I just don't put much stock in a lot of what you have to say.  There's a difference there.

I wish some of the people in my fraternal organization felt the same way you do.   ;D  Perfect reason for me to walk away.  Alas, that is not possible.   :(

We come from different backgrounds.  To remain on point, while some cultures (as mentioned by Father Ambrose) view tattoos, piercings and body art as acceptable, I see it differently.  Does that disagreement justify referring to what I said as a bizarre crusade?

I respect you as a military attorney (Forgive me if I'm incorrect); Try not to malign everything I say just because you don't agree with it.   :angel:

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #63 on: March 06, 2009, 12:42:34 AM »
We come from different backgrounds.  To remain on point, while some cultures (as mentioned by Father Ambrose) view tattoos, piercings and body art as acceptable, I see it differently.  Does that disagreement justify referring to what I said as a bizarre crusade?
I can understand that.
One of the Security Guards at the hospital where I sometimes work is Romanian and Orthodox, and he spotted my tattoo. He seemed to be in two minds about it. He liked the fact that it was an Orthodox Cross, but culturally for him "only criminals have tattoos". "Well", I said, "in the eyes of God, I am a criminal, so may be it is fitting that I should be branded as one!".
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #64 on: March 06, 2009, 12:54:35 AM »
I can understand that.

Forgive me if I appear obstinate.   :angel:

One of the Security Guards at the hospital where I sometimes work is Romanian and Orthodox, and he spotted my tattoo. He seemed to be in two minds about it. He liked the fact that it was an Orthodox Cross, but culturally for him "only criminals have tattoos". "Well", I said, "in the eyes of God, I am a criminal, so may be it is fitting that I should be branded as one!".

While we may be all sinners, next month, people will be crucifying themselves in the Philippines to re-enact the Crucifixion of Christ.  Another example of how deliberate self-inflicting of pain is not quite what the Orthodox Praxis had in mind.   ???

My estranged wife has two tattoos (all of her children are named on the tattoos); My sister's ex-boyfriend has tons of piercings and tattoos.  I can easily look past the tattoo, the piercing and never hold it against a person.   :)  Because I live with a family which is conservative and frowns upon tattoos, piercings and the like, I have resisted taking their views and developed my own view that the person is more important than the body art.

The difference occurs when an Orthodox clergyman admits to purchasing a tattoo regardless of cultural acceptance, et al.  If I were homeless and my Priest invited me into his House, he would expect me to get my act together and ultimately move out.  Edited at Poster's request.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 01:39:48 AM by ozgeorge »

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #65 on: March 06, 2009, 01:13:02 AM »
Edited at Poster's request.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 01:40:10 AM by ozgeorge »

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #66 on: March 06, 2009, 01:19:52 AM »
SolEX01,
were you insinuating what Irish Hermit thinks you were insinuating?
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #67 on: March 06, 2009, 01:22:08 AM »
SolEX01,
were you insinuating what Irish Hermit thinks you were insinuating?


ABSOLUTELY, 100% NO!!

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #68 on: March 06, 2009, 01:22:56 AM »
Father, I pray you don't talk to your parishioners the way you talked to me.  The example I cited merely explained the escalation of a simple gift.  There was no accusation made nor any insinuation.  By completing and magnifying my post, you shined a purple demon on both of us.  My intent was to discuss; your intent apparently is to inflame.  Forgive me if you even thought for a nanosecond that I was trying to shed a negative light on you for I was talking only about myself....

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #69 on: March 06, 2009, 01:33:45 AM »
SolEX01,
were you insinuating what Irish Hermit thinks you were insinuating?


Dear George,

May I ask that in charity you delete this sentence from the end of Sol's post Edited at Poster's request.

and delete my scandalised reaction to it as well.

Sol speaks of escalation; in mind mind the escalation took place with that sentence of his.....  The clergy have to be always alert for this kind of innuendo.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 01:41:09 AM by ozgeorge »

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #70 on: March 06, 2009, 01:34:46 AM »
SolEX01,
Thank you for your explanation.
I think we need to be careful how we word things. The typed word is quite unforgiving and lacks the nuances of the spoken word and body language.

Are we all agreed that the edits be made?
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #71 on: March 06, 2009, 01:37:14 AM »
SolEX01,
Thank you for your explanation.
I think we need to be careful how we word things. The typed word is quite unforgiving and lacks the nuances of the spoken word and body language.

Are we all agreed that the edits be made?

I am sorry Father Ambrose.

I am sorry George.

I meant no ill will.  Please make the necessary edits.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #72 on: March 06, 2009, 01:41:03 AM »
SolEX01,
Thank you for your explanation.
I think we need to be careful how we word things. The typed word is quite unforgiving and lacks the nuances of the spoken word and body language.

Are we all agreed that the edits be made?

I am sorry Father Ambrose.

I am sorry George.

I meant no ill will.  Please make the necessary edits.

A cyber prostration.  Maybe I am too sensitive to what people say on this Forum.  Forgive me.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #73 on: March 06, 2009, 01:43:00 AM »
All done!
Let's get back on track, and chase those Purple demons off!
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #74 on: March 06, 2009, 01:43:52 AM »
A cyber prostration.  Maybe I am too sensitive to what people say on this Forum.  Forgive me.

May God forgive us all.  Amen!

Offline EmptyBe

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #75 on: May 16, 2010, 10:12:56 PM »
Back when I was anti-Christian, I used to throw scriptures at Christians with tattoos like:

Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I [am] the LORD. Leviticus 19:28
and
"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?  You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price.  Therefore honor God with your body," (1 Cor. 6:19-20).

One response I found funny was "Yea my body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, and these tattoos are the stained glass windows!" To which I replied, "Yea and this cigarette I'm smoking is the incense?"  :D

Now that I'm older, and looking beyond the triviality of it all, I truly doubt that God cares if, with good intention, we get a tattoo.
ICXC NIKA,
Matthew

Offline LBK

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #76 on: May 16, 2010, 10:41:03 PM »
Quote
Now that I'm older, and looking beyond the triviality of it all, I truly doubt that God cares if, with good intention, we get a tattoo.

But why the perceived "need" to get a tattoo? (I'm not talking about the wrist or forehead tattoos of crosses of the Copts, which were, historically, done out of dire and genuine necessity). Is it not sufficient that Orthodox Christians wear a baptismal cross on their body? Maybe I'm getting old, but the push for "Orthodox tattoos" is a symptom at best of youthful exuberance; at worst, hubris. Ask the 18-25-year-olds in ten or twenty years' time who get themselves tattooed this: Are you still part (taking an active part) of the Orthodox Church? I suspect that a good number of folks who want to get "Orthodox tattoos" are subject to the phenomenon of "convertitis".
« Last Edit: May 16, 2010, 10:42:25 PM by LBK »
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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #77 on: May 17, 2010, 12:13:22 AM »
Quote
Now that I'm older, and looking beyond the triviality of it all, I truly doubt that God cares if, with good intention, we get a tattoo.

But why the perceived "need" to get a tattoo? (I'm not talking about the wrist or forehead tattoos of crosses of the Copts, which were, historically, done out of dire and genuine necessity). Is it not sufficient that Orthodox Christians wear a baptismal cross on their body? Maybe I'm getting old, but the push for "Orthodox tattoos" is a symptom at best of youthful exuberance; at worst, hubris. Ask the 18-25-year-olds in ten or twenty years' time who get themselves tattooed this: Are you still part (taking an active part) of the Orthodox Church? I suspect that a good number of folks who want to get "Orthodox tattoos" are subject to the phenomenon of "convertitis".
All the better if they aren't: the tattoo remains as a sign calling them back.
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                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Isadore

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Re: Cross tattoo
« Reply #78 on: May 20, 2010, 03:39:35 AM »
Quote
Now that I'm older, and looking beyond the triviality of it all, I truly doubt that God cares if, with good intention, we get a tattoo.

But why the perceived "need" to get a tattoo? (I'm not talking about the wrist or forehead tattoos of crosses of the Copts, which were, historically, done out of dire and genuine necessity). Is it not sufficient that Orthodox Christians wear a baptismal cross on their body? Maybe I'm getting old, but the push for "Orthodox tattoos" is a symptom at best of youthful exuberance; at worst, hubris. Ask the 18-25-year-olds in ten or twenty years' time who get themselves tattooed this: Are you still part (taking an active part) of the Orthodox Church? I suspect that a good number of folks who want to get "Orthodox tattoos" are subject to the phenomenon of "convertitis".
All the better if they aren't: the tattoo remains as a sign calling them back.

Agreed :)

I believe I will get a small one after my monastery trip and hopefully stay.
"Acquire a peaceful spirit, and around you thousands will be saved."