OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 25, 2014, 07:58:02 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Holding candles during Gospel and Great Entrance  (Read 396 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,226



WWW
« on: May 16, 2014, 01:43:05 PM »


My parish, and many others, have the tradition of laypeople holding candles during the reading of the Gospel and during the Great Entrance.

During the Gospel Reading, 2 women hold candles and stand on the left (if looking towards the Altar) and 2 men on the right.  This is traditionally the sides the men and women stand in church (although these days it is not adhered to so strictly anymore).

During the Great Entrance, men hold all 4 candles - standing on either side.

My question is...why are women not allowed to hold candles during the Great Entrance?  Is this just a dinosaur tradition from old days?  Is this just something someone at the parish thought up 50 years ago? 

On major Feast days, when there are many children around, I ask the starosta if I can pass out the candles, and I give them to the kids.  Often times, there are way more girls than boys, and sometimes, I do not have 4 boys...so, I give the candles to the girls, as well.  I figure if someone yells at me, I will try to explain they are all children and equal in the sight of God.

I have seen both men and women holding candles during the Great Entrance at other parishes.

Is there some restriction that you know of?

I'm only bringing this up because I have been asked to make a sign up sheet, for people who wish to hold candles, to sign.  Usually, the starosta merely hands the candles to whomever....but, I guess someone has complained that they never get to hold one...so, now the sign up sheet.

I'm curious if anyone has any history or reason why people even hold candles during these particular moments of the Liturgy. 

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,226



WWW
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2014, 01:54:42 PM »


Here are some pics of the kids holding the candles.   It's usually 2 and 2, but, with the kids, I like to get them all involved...so, there's more than 4 people standing with candles.

Boys on one side, girls on the other - Gospel Reading








These are from Palm Sunday.

I was handing the candles out to the "boys"....but, the little girl ran and grabbed one herself...and I didn't have the heart to take it away from her...so, I placed her smack dab in the middle.  The bishop was serving...and he had nothing negative to say about it...



Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: I'm Greek and proud of it, damn it!
Posts: 6,149



« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2014, 02:11:15 PM »

I've never heard of such a custom.  I know that the altar servers with torches (or candles) process in front of the Gospel and gifts who are male.  Did this custom maybe originate from a time when your parish didn't have any altar servers? 

I
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
hecma925
Non-clairvoyant
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 6,397


Pray for me, a sinner.


WWW
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2014, 02:13:08 PM »

If the bishop's fine with it, I don't see the problem.
Logged

LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,226



WWW
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2014, 02:19:24 PM »

Did this custom maybe originate from a time when your parish didn't have any altar servers? 


I have no idea.  It's been this way my entire life....but, that doesn't mean it is correct. 

If the bishop's fine with it, I don't see the problem.

I didn't specifically ask him about it....he just didn't come out and correct me.

I've never actually even given this a second thought until today....and now I am wondering why we do this.

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
hecma925
Non-clairvoyant
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 6,397


Pray for me, a sinner.


WWW
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2014, 02:22:47 PM »

Did this custom maybe originate from a time when your parish didn't have any altar servers? 


I have no idea.  It's been this way my entire life....but, that doesn't mean it is correct. 

If the bishop's fine with it, I don't see the problem.

I didn't specifically ask him about it....he just didn't come out and correct me.

I've never actually even given this a second thought until today....and now I am wondering why we do this.



Does your parish have a parish historian, maybe to see when it started?  You seem to get a lot of contact with your bishop; why not ask? Smiley
Logged

LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,226



WWW
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2014, 02:23:55 PM »


LOL!

I just might!

However, since I've just "thought" about it....I think I will ask my priest first....and see what he says.

I hate bothering bishops with such trivialities.  Priests are busy....bishops are swamped.
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 17,842


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2014, 02:35:32 PM »

I hate bothering bishops with such trivialities.  Priests are busy....bishops are swamped.

Bishops love trivialities.  It gives them an excuse to ignore the real work.  Tongue

Re: the OP, this is a practice I've only observed among Ukrainians and Rusyns.  I've never seen it in a "Russian" parish, nor among Romanians, and certainly not among all the various "Greeks".   
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,226



WWW
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2014, 02:41:37 PM »


Yes....I've also only seen it at Ukrainian churches.  However, at some, both men and women hold candles both times.
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
elephant
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOAA
Posts: 610



« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2014, 03:19:03 PM »

Dear Liza,

When there is no altar server, say on a weekday, I've seen adult men and women hold a candle for the Gospel.  And we are among the "various Greeks".

Love, elephant
Logged
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 8,713



« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2014, 04:05:26 PM »

Great... more wax to clean up.  Wink
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
elephant
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOAA
Posts: 610



« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2014, 04:09:14 PM »

Great... more wax to clean up.  Wink

They are not a patch on the Bishop who waves handfuls of candles around.
Logged
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,360



« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2014, 04:12:47 PM »

I've never heard of such a custom.  I know that the altar servers with torches (or candles) process in front of the Gospel and gifts who are male. 

Same here.
Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,601


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2014, 04:13:56 PM »

I've never heard of such a custom.  I know that the altar servers with torches (or candles) process in front of the Gospel and gifts who are male.  Did this custom maybe originate from a time when your parish didn't have any altar servers? 

I

It's an East Slav thing. When i was a kid, old men would do this and the shakiest guy seemed to always get the "Trojca", the triple one and drip wax all over. When we put carpeting in (I know "outrage!""") altar boys took over, but never girls in my church, but I've seen women hold them in some places. The Gifts are not consecrated at the Great Entrance, I see no distinction re: women or girls holding candles then for perhaps  except local custom.
Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,955


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2014, 04:15:05 PM »

 It is regional custom of the Rusyns and Ukrainians and not even among all them
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,226



WWW
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2014, 04:17:28 PM »

I've never heard of such a custom.  I know that the altar servers with torches (or candles) process in front of the Gospel and gifts who are male.  Did this custom maybe originate from a time when your parish didn't have any altar servers? 

I

It's an East Slav thing. When i was a kid, old men would do this and the shakiest guy seemed to always get the "Trojca", the triple one and drip wax all over. When we put carpeting in (I know "outrage!""") altar boys took over, but never girls in my church, but I've seen women hold them in some places. The Gifts are not consecrated at the Great Entrance, I see no distinction re: women or girls holding candles then for perhaps  except local custom.

That's what I thought, as well.

I'm not sure why it's only the men who hold them at that point.

I'm going to have to do some digging.  Wink
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,601


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2014, 05:06:15 PM »

I've never heard of such a custom.  I know that the altar servers with torches (or candles) process in front of the Gospel and gifts who are male.  Did this custom maybe originate from a time when your parish didn't have any altar servers? 

I

It's an East Slav thing. When i was a kid, old men would do this and the shakiest guy seemed to always get the "Trojca", the triple one and drip wax all over. When we put carpeting in (I know "outrage!""") altar boys took over, but never girls in my church, but I've seen women hold them in some places. The Gifts are not consecrated at the Great Entrance, I see no distinction re: women or girls holding candles then for perhaps  except local custom.

That's what I thought, as well.

I'm not sure why it's only the men who hold them at that point.

I'm going to have to do some digging.  Wink


To quote one of the most famous Jews from our part of the old world, Tevje: - 'TRADITION!' 

(He did have a pretty good non-denominational prayer for the Tsar if I recall as well!   Wink )
Logged
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,226



WWW
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2014, 05:12:34 PM »


Hmmmmm...... Lips Sealed
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,296


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2014, 06:06:35 PM »


Yes....I've also only seen it at Ukrainian churches.  However, at some, both men and women hold candles both times.

Have you ever seen a person faint while holding a candle?
Once when my son served on the altar, he almost fainted.

Afterwards a yiayia took him aside, and told him to wiggle his feet while holding the candle, but then another yiayia told him not to wiggle his feet or move his body as that was a serious distraction for her. However, my son told me that all the altar boys would sway a little and that did help them. Looking closely down at the candle and then not getting enough oxygen can make one faint.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 06:09:14 PM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,226



WWW
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2014, 06:17:07 PM »


Smiley  When I give the candles to little tykes...I always tell them if it gets too heavy or they don't feel well...to just slip it down and stand it on the floor, and just hold the top of it.

I've had little ones do that.  Amazingly they find them heavy.  Smiley

Yeah...the altar servers do have a hard time...it gets hot in the Altar, especially in the summer....and on long days such as Pascha, with all the lights shining on them....the candle can be their undoing.

I feel for them.
Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.08 seconds with 46 queries.