Author Topic: A rethorical question.  (Read 1397 times)

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Offline optxogokcoc

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A rethorical question.
« on: April 11, 2005, 08:22:34 PM »
What is abolute moment when The New Testament starts?

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Offline Fr. George

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Re: A rethorical question.
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2005, 08:40:27 PM »
The absolute moment?  I know you called it a rhetorical question, but I'll answer it anyway - the NT begins before all time.

John 1:1 - In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word.

That is why in the Gospel Book on the Altar the Paschal gospel is the first reading on the top - because it is also the first passage (chronologically) of the ENTIRE Bible, not just the NT.
"If you are going to serve the Lord, be prepared for times when you will be put to the test. Be sincere and determined. Keep calm when trouble comes. Stay with the Lord; never abandon Him and you will be prosperous at the end of your days. Accept whatever happens to you. Even if you suffer humiliation, be patient. Gold is tested by fire and human character is tested in the furnace of humiliation. Trust the Lord and He will help you. Walk straight in His ways and put your hope in Him. " Sir 2:1-6

Offline Pravoslavbob

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Re: A rethorical question.
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2005, 08:53:02 PM »
What is abolute moment when The New Testament starts?

I'll answer your question if you can answer this one to my satisfaction.  During the celebration of Holy Week and Pascha, when is the exact liturgical moment that Pascha begins?  :)
Atheists have noetic deficiencies.

Offline optxogokcoc

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Re: A rethorical question.
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2005, 09:22:48 PM »
Pravoslavbob: It begins on Saturday of Lazarus at the service of vespers (aka six o'clock in the afternoon) when with the words of the service. ("Having accomplished 40 days good to our soul, let us ask to see through also the holy week of Your Passion, O Lover of all humanity" - free translation from Church-slavonic).

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Offline Fr. George

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Re: A rethorical question.
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2005, 10:24:35 PM »
It begins on Saturday of Lazarus at the service of vespers 

Nope.  Pascha does not begin on Lazarus Saturday.  Pascha begins at the beginning of the Liturgical day on Pascha day - which would be at the singing of the Great Prokeimenon "Arise, O God, and judge now the Earth..."  The Prokeimenon is the liturgical moment (during vespers) when the next day begins... so for any particular day, the liturgical day begins at the prokeimenon of vespers the evening before.

(But, of course, the Orthodox fast based on the legal calendar, and thus the Holy Saturday strict fast does not end until midnight.)
"If you are going to serve the Lord, be prepared for times when you will be put to the test. Be sincere and determined. Keep calm when trouble comes. Stay with the Lord; never abandon Him and you will be prosperous at the end of your days. Accept whatever happens to you. Even if you suffer humiliation, be patient. Gold is tested by fire and human character is tested in the furnace of humiliation. Trust the Lord and He will help you. Walk straight in His ways and put your hope in Him. " Sir 2:1-6

Offline Pravoslavbob

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Re: A rethorical question.
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2005, 01:00:31 AM »


Nope. Pascha does not begin on Lazarus Saturday. Pascha begins at the beginning of the Liturgical day on Pascha day - which would be at the singing of the Great Prokeimenon "Arise, O God, and judge now the Earth..." The Prokeimenon is the liturgical moment (during vespers) when the next day begins...

Cleveland,

You're right that this is technically the time when Pascha starts. My question to orthodoxos was meant to make a point. The exact time when Pascha begins is really an organic thing. I`ve heard it said that it is like bread dough rising. The Church is a vital, organic, living body where living Tradition makes its home, so this should not surprise us. Look at the texts of Holy Week. There are very strong resurrectional elements present already at the Matins of Great and Holy Saturday. And even at Nocturnes Pascha night, there are still texts that hearken back to the entombment and the crucifixion. (Another point that one could draw from this is that the crucifixion and the resurrection are always strongly linked.)

Your response to orthodoxos's question is a good one. I think one could also answer that the process is an organic one that doesn't have an exact beginning (when considering it simply in the temporal sense.) John the Forerunner is definitely an Old Testament figure. You could say that the Theotokos links the Old and New Covenants. I think that the New Covenant is not fully and completely inaugurated until the day of Pentecost.

BTW, are you sure you are right to call "Arise O God" a prokeimenon? It takes the place of the Alleluia verses at this liturgy. Also, it is not part of vespers, as the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil has already started at this point in the vesperal liturgy, so your (correct) statement that the next liturgical day always begins at the prokeimenon (of vespers) does not apply here.

Bob
« Last Edit: April 12, 2005, 01:25:39 AM by Pravoslavbob »
Atheists have noetic deficiencies.