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Author Topic: Orthodox and punishments  (Read 1326 times) Average Rating: 0
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Justionios
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« on: April 11, 2005, 02:40:50 PM »

Are orthodox aloud to punish the ones that don't obey them ?
If no where can i Find information about it ?
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ania
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« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2005, 03:04:52 PM »

What do you mean, "don't obey?" 
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icxn
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« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2005, 03:06:00 PM »

Does this quote work for you Justionios?

For Christians above all men are forbidden to correct the stumblings of sinners by force ... It is necessary to make a man better not by force but by persuasion. We neither have authority granted us by law to restrain sinners, nor, if it were, should we know how to use it, since God gives the crown to those who are kept from evil, not by force, but by choice. - St. John Chrysostom

icxn
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Justionios
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« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2005, 03:15:59 PM »

Thank you ! There is some people that says that you can if you have the law with your side, to take land , houses from people that they find heretic and schismatic.
 Isous Xristos Nika ICXN
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« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2005, 03:34:30 PM »

Justionios,

Dont take the quote out of context, St. John Chrysostom was speaking as one without Legal authority to 'restrain sinners' with that said, even St. John Chrysostom excommunicated sinners, for that was within his authority; moreover, he is addressing the issue for a spiritual, not legal, perspective. The Oecumenical Patriarch is the Legal Authority over Mt. Athos, and shall I quote St. Paul's letter to the Romans?:

'For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.'

Moreover, justionios, to take your argument to the logical conclusion, you would be arguing that a Christian state cannot punish murders, or even restrain them and prevent them from murdering again. His All-Holiness is the Legal authority over the Holy Mountain, and the monks (with an 'o,' not a 'u') are bound to him in obedience. And if they break communion with them, they loose his blessing to stay on Mt. Athos and must leave.
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icxn
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« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2005, 03:56:20 PM »

Aha! Greekischristian is right but then there is no punishment involved. The monastery does not belong to the monks anyway... and they were given many warnings and time to change their mind and they did not... so GisC is very correct about context here.

icxn
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fennik
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« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2005, 11:17:33 PM »

Thank you ! There is some people that says that you can if you have the law with your side, to take land , houses from people that they find heretic and schismatic.
 Isous Xristos Nika ICXN
Did Jesus steal? no. what there doing is stealing land and other things from people that they consider to be sinners. Did Jesus force faith upon people by taking or stealing? no. They do not have the right to take anything from anyone, they will be judged, no worries. Hopefully they will realize that there not the ones that judge another person and will show the 'sinners' Jesus.
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« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2005, 12:34:20 AM »

Did Jesus steal? no. what there doing is stealing land and other things from people that they consider to be sinners. Did Jesus force faith upon people by taking or stealing? no. They do not have the right to take anything from anyone, they will be judged, no worries. Hopefully they will realize that there not the ones that judge another person and will show the 'sinners' Jesus.

You're forgetting something, the Monks dont own the Monastery, the Oecumenical Patriarch does. What was effectively done is that the Oecumenical Throne said that if you're going to Schism against us, you can no longer use our Monastery or be on our Land.
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Justionios
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« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2005, 09:19:18 AM »



You're forgetting something, the Monks dont own the Monastery, the Oecumenical Patriarch does. What was effectively done is that the Oecumenical Throne said that if you're going to Schism against us, you can no longer use our Monastery or be on our Land.

Since when does the Patriarch own our holy mothers land ?
The land-low is not comparable with orthodox law !! Espesially a land-law wich has been changed at times when the non-orthodox powers forced us to accept patriarch as Meletios IV , Reed about him and tell me if I am wrong.

And please tell me didn't orthodox at that time see at Meletios as Heterodox ? Was he not a freemaison of 33 degree ?
« Last Edit: April 12, 2005, 09:30:26 AM by Justionios » Logged

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Justionios
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« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2005, 09:27:24 AM »


Did Jesus steal? no. what there doing is stealing land and other things from people that they consider to be sinners. Did Jesus force faith upon people by taking or stealing? no. They do not have the right to take anything from anyone, they will be judged, no worries. Hopefully they will realize that there not the ones that judge another person and will show the 'sinners' Jesus.

Thank you fennik, they are actually stealing, but they have the power and land-law on their said.
 Actually waht is happening is a preperation for the anti-christ. The will punish every one that doesn't follow them. with law on their hands they will say that all the world is bellonging to their emperor.

Though they don't follow canons nor laws, but they are only following Bartholemew, and in about X years the will following someone else,
« Last Edit: April 12, 2005, 05:17:28 PM by Justionios » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2005, 05:48:45 PM »

Our Christ teached us love and devotion . Forcing people to believe our way is not something that i relate with Orthodoxy. People can freely choose what to do or believe in their own way without getting punished in the form that i understood.

However there are alot of people not fully respecting that and they want their law to be forced upon them and thats not so proper in my opinion.

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