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Author Topic: How to properly venerate icons?  (Read 4019 times) Average Rating: 0
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monkvasyl
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« on: April 11, 2005, 12:36:55 PM »

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I'm planning to give a talk to our children on icons and how we should properly venerate them.  I remember in one parish, when we were cleaning the icon of the Entrance into Jerusalem (Palm Sunday), most of the kissing seemed to be of the donkey.  I know we never kiss Jesus or His Mother or any saints on the face.  And that we would kiss their feet.  The Mother of God, we would generally kiss the star on her shoulder.  Does anyone know the full  list of does and don't?
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« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2005, 12:53:28 PM »

And if anyone does know them...please post here!
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« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2005, 05:44:24 PM »

Here are some things I scared up on google, hope they help.

http://www.saintelias.com/EtiquetteKK/Coming2KK/Coming2KK_elia.html

http://www.holyres.net/Articles/CUSTOMS.html


Here is what I know, and I'm far from official church doctrine.

Kiss the icon on the hands, feet or bottom corner
Remove lipstick and don't slobber or lick the icon.
As for how many times one should bow and cross themselves prior to kissing an icon, this varies from place to place.


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s.f.f.
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« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2005, 09:23:23 AM »

Glory to Jesus Christ - for those currently observing Lent!
likewise... Christ is Risen!

To venerate icons properly your mindset should contain respect and sincerity.


Simple and with reverence:

cross self twice
kiss the lowest part of the icon
cross self

Well, that's I was taught.
 
I try.  and as one of my friends states...
yes dear you are very trying.

S.F.F.
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monkvasyl
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« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2005, 09:10:36 AM »

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I want to thank everyone for their help. Last night I found this on the site of the Church of the Nativity (Old Rite, Erie, PA):

"When we venerate the holy icons, the Cross of the Lord, and the Holy Gospel, we do not dare to touch with our lips the sacred faces painted thereon; rather, we kiss the feet of the Crucified Lord or the blessing hand of the Lord or His saints, or their clothing, calling to mind the woman of the Gospel who said to herself, "If I may but touch His garment, I shall be whole." On those icons where the hands or feet are not depicted, such as the Icon of Christ 'Not made By Hands', we kiss the hair, or the towel on which it is shown, but never the face or the lips."

I remember, also, that for the Mother of God, we can also kiss the Star on her shoulder. I, also, recollect that for the Holy Angels we kiss their wings.
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« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2012, 07:35:42 PM »

Good info Smiley
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2012, 02:38:39 PM »

How did Yeshua/Jesus or any of the 12 apostles teach us to kiss icons?  I'm still trying to find it in the scriptures.
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« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2012, 03:16:22 PM »

How did Yeshua/Jesus or any of the 12 apostles teach us to kiss icons?  I'm still trying to find it in the scriptures.

If you're a Protestant, there's no need for you to kiss them. If you're not a Protestant, this comment is bizarre.
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« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2012, 05:52:53 PM »

How did Yeshua/Jesus or any of the 12 apostles teach us to kiss icons?  I'm still trying to find it in the scriptures.

If you're a Protestant, there's no need for you to kiss them. If you're not a Protestant, this comment is bizarre.

I'm just trying to find the example of where our Lord and Savior venerated icons, encouraged his disciples to venerate icons, or where is it written that the disciples themselves venerated icons?    Since we are to emulate the life and worship of Jesus/Yeshua, and the disciples I'd like to see the examples.
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« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2012, 06:37:22 PM »

How did Yeshua/Jesus or any of the 12 apostles teach us to kiss icons?  I'm still trying to find it in the scriptures.

If you're a Protestant, there's no need for you to kiss them. If you're not a Protestant, this comment is bizarre.

I'm just trying to find the example of where our Lord and Savior venerated icons, encouraged his disciples to venerate icons, or where is it written that the disciples themselves venerated icons?    Since we are to emulate the life and worship of Jesus/Yeshua, and the disciples I'd like to see the examples.

Why would they venerate an icon when God was right there in the flesh?

Your comments betray an unsubstantiated assumption that the Epistles are a curriculum. They're not. They're mostly letters intended to correct people's mistakes. Perhaps they had no problem with icons so there was nothing for the Apostles to say. It's possible.
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2012, 07:34:08 PM »

How did Yeshua/Jesus or any of the 12 apostles teach us to kiss icons?  I'm still trying to find it in the scriptures.

If you're a Protestant, there's no need for you to kiss them. If you're not a Protestant, this comment is bizarre.

I'm just trying to find the example of where our Lord and Savior venerated icons, encouraged his disciples to venerate icons, or where is it written that the disciples themselves venerated icons?    Since we are to emulate the life and worship of Jesus/Yeshua, and the disciples I'd like to see the examples.

Why would they venerate an icon when God was right there in the flesh?

Your comments betray an unsubstantiated assumption that the Epistles are a curriculum. They're not. They're mostly letters intended to correct people's mistakes. Perhaps they had no problem with icons so there was nothing for the Apostles to say. It's possible.

He wasn't there after he ascended into heaven.

Of course by saying "It's possible" that's not a definite.

Go to earlychristianwritings.com

I could only find 1 text by google search on all their books that mentions icons.  The book was in 614 AD.

Also you mentioned that "they were mostly letters to correct mistakes".
Acts?  Romans?  No mention....   

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« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2012, 07:42:07 PM »

The first ever icon was made by Christ Himself - the "Not-made-by-hands". There is no question that this holy and priceless image was venerated by Christians for the better part of a thousand years (starting with King Abgar, who was cured of his leprosy by praying before it in sincere faith), until it disappeared in about the ninth or tenth century.
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2012, 09:02:05 PM »

The first ever icon was made by Christ Himself - the "Not-made-by-hands". There is no question that this holy and priceless image was venerated by Christians for the better part of a thousand years (starting with King Abgar, who was cured of his leprosy by praying before it in sincere faith), until it disappeared in about the ninth or tenth century.

I may lack scriptural knowledge, but I have never seen in any scripture that Christ made an icon of himself.  Like an "image" representation.   But anyway, if you go off the 'little t story'... you know, when you DRY your face with a towel, the image looks just like you.  So good, you can paint a face of it.   Especially towels woven or knitted with such fine fabrics as they had then....

Anyway, something that was venerated for 1000 years, is only about half as long as Christianity has even been here.   What about the EARLY EARLY stuff.
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« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2012, 10:11:58 PM »

The first ever icon was made by Christ Himself - the "Not-made-by-hands". There is no question that this holy and priceless image was venerated by Christians for the better part of a thousand years (starting with King Abgar, who was cured of his leprosy by praying before it in sincere faith), until it disappeared in about the ninth or tenth century.

I may lack scriptural knowledge, but I have never seen in any scripture that Christ made an icon of himself.  Like an "image" representation.   But anyway, if you go off the 'little t story'... you know, when you DRY your face with a towel, the image looks just like you.  So good, you can paint a face of it.   Especially towels woven or knitted with such fine fabrics as they had then....

Anyway, something that was venerated for 1000 years, is only about half as long as Christianity has even been here.   What about the EARLY EARLY stuff.

It's not the last thousand years...
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« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2012, 10:28:58 PM »

You will find Christ's instructions on the creation and use of icons a few verses down from where He tells His disciples to write Gospels of His life and to write instructive letters to the flock after His ascension.  Just sayin'


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« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2012, 11:12:11 PM »

Christ Himself represents Iconography in that He was in the days of old the invisible Logos who in the latter days became Incarnate and visible in flesh. This is what the Apostle Paul means when refers to Him as being the visible image of the invisible God. Because God became visible and Incarnate He is now depictable.

Oh, and there were synagogues during the early centuries A.D. with Iconographic depictions, like Dura Europos:

http://theorthodoxlife.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/dura-europos-western-wall.jpg
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« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2012, 02:13:48 AM »

Quote
Anyway, something that was venerated for 1000 years, is only about half as long as Christianity has even been here.   What about the EARLY EARLY stuff.

So, yesh, Christ creating a miraculous image of Himself isn't EARLY EARLY enough for you? Please go back and read my earlier post more carefully.  police
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2012, 12:35:40 PM »

You will find Christ's instructions on the creation and use of icons a few verses down from where He tells His disciples to write Gospels of His life and to write instructive letters to the flock after His ascension.  Just sayin'




Where?
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2012, 12:38:48 PM »

Quote
Anyway, something that was venerated for 1000 years, is only about half as long as Christianity has even been here.   What about the EARLY EARLY stuff.

So, yesh, Christ creating a miraculous image of Himself isn't EARLY EARLY enough for you? Please go back and read my earlier post more carefully.  police

The Orthodoxwiki does not agree with you.
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Image_Not-made-by-hands

In according from "Tradition" section.

I asked for biblical verses, not "church tradition".   If church tradition is biblical verses, then it would be the scriptures.

I ask again, show me the verses with icons.
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« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2012, 12:40:51 PM »

Christ Himself represents Iconography in that He was in the days of old the invisible Logos who in the latter days became Incarnate and visible in flesh. This is what the Apostle Paul means when refers to Him as being the visible image of the invisible God. Because God became visible and Incarnate He is now depictable.

Oh, and there were synagogues during the early centuries A.D. with Iconographic depictions, like Dura Europos:

http://theorthodoxlife.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/dura-europos-western-wall.jpg

Jewish depictions mean nothing, as I could start an enormous argument on this about the Israelites consistently being punished for idolatry.
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« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2012, 12:50:56 PM »

In the book of Leviticus 26:1 it says: Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the LORD your God.

How can iconography be reconciled with such a verse? If the reference to carvings of cherubim makes it permissible to make images, why does this verse not make it impermissible?
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« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2012, 12:51:10 PM »

Quote
Anyway, something that was venerated for 1000 years, is only about half as long as Christianity has even been here.   What about the EARLY EARLY stuff.

So, yesh, Christ creating a miraculous image of Himself isn't EARLY EARLY enough for you? Please go back and read my earlier post more carefully.  police

The Orthodoxwiki does not agree with you.
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Image_Not-made-by-hands

In according from "Tradition" section.

I asked for biblical verses, not "church tradition".   If church tradition is biblical verses, then it would be the scriptures.

I ask again, show me the verses with icons.

If you don't accept Church Tradition as being authoritative, you have bigger problems than icons.
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« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2012, 01:13:39 PM »

In the book of Leviticus 26:1 it says: Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the LORD your God.

How can iconography be reconciled with such a verse? If the reference to carvings of cherubim makes it permissible to make images, why does this verse not make it impermissible?
This is in reference, I believe, to false gods and idols people actually worship, not something venerated or held in high esteem.  We do not worship the images in the icons anymore than someone worships the photo of their parents on their wall.  Protestant churches have icons, they just don't realize this in the cross, pictures of doves, crown of thorns, etc.
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