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Author Topic: OCA vs. Antiochian  (Read 1957 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: May 17, 2014, 12:40:09 PM »

OP there is no versus. Please don't pretend churches in communion are in some sort of fight.

Well said. The question speaks more to Western legalism than to an Orthodox heart.

Reminds me of when two opposing views collide they set scripture against itself, ignoring the logic that at least one must be wrong on interpretation and therefore the scripture you believe is 'proving them wrong' is going to interpreted differently just like the original scripture was.
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« Reply #46 on: May 17, 2014, 12:41:54 PM »

OP there is no versus. Please don't pretend churches in communion are in some sort of fight.

Well said. The question speaks more to Western legalism than to an Orthodox heart.

While I will grant that the OP is a rather "open" question, I really don't think reactions such as these are justified.  They seem to read a controversy into the question where it doesn't exist. 
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« Reply #47 on: May 17, 2014, 02:27:42 PM »

OP there is no versus. Please don't pretend churches in communion are in some sort of fight.

Well said. The question speaks more to Western legalism than to an Orthodox heart.

While I will grant that the OP is a rather "open" question, I really don't think reactions such as these are justified.  They seem to read a controversy into the question where it doesn't exist. 

I didn't mean to intend it was deliberately done though I see how it appears now.
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« Reply #48 on: May 17, 2014, 02:33:15 PM »

OP there is no versus. Please don't pretend churches in communion are in some sort of fight.

Well said. The question speaks more to Western legalism than to an Orthodox heart.

 Roll Eyes

I'm so sick of this holier than thou attitude.  The ONLY way anyone would think the OP meant 'vs' as in a fight or steel cage match is if they didn't read the first post at all.  "VS" has more than one meaning...but of course everybody already knows that.
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« Reply #49 on: May 17, 2014, 02:51:55 PM »


I have been an Antiochian Priest for over 34 years and have yet to attend a Divine Liturgy completely or even mostly in Arabic.

Fr. John W. Morris.

A couple of years ago my small parish invited an Arabic speaking priest to concelebrate with our priest. The service was as close to possible 50-50. We wanted to honour our Arabic-speaking members and entice some of the Arabic speaking "onlookers" who have never attended to at least pay a visit. Not one single Arabic speaking member of the congregation showed up on that Sunday. Every single one of them stayed away. We will never bother trying that again.

That said, I'm not opposed to the use of Arabic (or other heritage language) where it serves a useful purpose.

In over 34 years of serving as an Antiochian Orthodox Priest, I have yet to see an Arabic speaking family in which the children were taught to speak and write Arabic. Besides, the language the people speak among themselves is a dialect, not the formal classical Arabic used for writing. Arabic is a very difficult language. Written Arabic does not include the vowels which makes reading it even more difficult. I have known highly educated Arabic immigrants who find it easier to read a book in French or English than Arabic.

Fr. John W. Morris.
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« Reply #50 on: May 17, 2014, 03:58:35 PM »

My son and his wife attended an Antiochian parish in Albany, NY for several years while in graduate school. The parish was small, very ethnic and with an immigrant priest from Lebanon, if I recall. Liturgy was 50/50 Arabic and English, and the epistle, gospel and homily were always given in both Arabic and English. But the people were kind, gracious and welcoming and my family felt like they were part of their families. This was during the period when my daughter-in-law had converted to Orthodoxy and their warmth truly made her feel part of things.
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« Reply #51 on: May 18, 2014, 04:59:25 AM »

OP there is no versus. Please don't pretend churches in communion are in some sort of fight.

Well said. The question speaks more to Western legalism than to an Orthodox heart.

 Roll Eyes

I'm so sick of this holier than thou attitude.  The ONLY way anyone would think the OP meant 'vs' as in a fight or steel cage match is if they didn't read the first post at all.  "VS" has more than one meaning...but of course everybody already knows that.

I did read the first post, it says "Anyone care to highlight some of the differences?"

Why is it so unbelievable to have read into this as saying "Which one is preferable?" - and don't pretend some posters here wouldn't see this thread as an opportunity to nay say the other side.
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« Reply #52 on: May 18, 2014, 07:35:15 AM »

When  first converted we attended the closest parish which was a Greek Parish, when our second priest began to use English as the primary language of the Liturgy many  2nd and 3rd generation adults complained until he told them  that all weekday liturgies would be in Greek. This satisfied them that their Hellenic identity was not being ch alleged. What surprised Father was that whee the weekday Liturgies were held  a few first generation Greek members came, not to hear the Greek but to translate for the many new converts who came to the services, oddly enough they supported the English services on Sundays because they wanted their Children and grandchildren to worship in their new national language, American English. It appears that the 2nd and 3rd Generation did not understand the Greek Language and were just afraid of the parish losing  its Hellenic identity. By The time we left the parish on  job move over half the parish were coverts, all the services were mostly said in English with a few Ektania's in Greek and the Epistle being read phonically in Greek by those 2 and 3rd generation Greeks who did not understand a word of what they were Reading until it was repeated in English.Gospel read in both English and Greek. Everyone seemed happy and the parish continues to florish but not asmuch as the much larger  Antiochian Parish in the same city.
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« Reply #53 on: May 18, 2014, 01:32:31 PM »

A couple of years ago my small parish invited an Arabic speaking priest to concelebrate with our priest. The service was as close to possible 50-50. We wanted to honour our Arabic-speaking members and entice some of the Arabic speaking "onlookers" who have never attended to at least pay a visit. Not one single Arabic speaking member of the congregation showed up on that Sunday. Every single one of them stayed away. We will never bother trying that again.
It would be interesting to follow up with them. First, tell them that you are inviting the priest with this in mind. Then if they don't come, act like some companies do and do a feedback survey. Call them up or ask them on Sunday why they didn't come. For example, is it not something that they care at all about? Is it not something that has any appeal to them over a regular service? If not, then what's the point?

I do know that some parishes with lots of Arab speakers have a significant portion of the service in Arabic.
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« Reply #54 on: May 18, 2014, 02:16:46 PM »

When  first converted we attended the closest parish which was a Greek Parish, when our second priest began to use English as the primary language of the Liturgy many  2nd and 3rd generation adults complained until he told them  that all weekday liturgies would be in Greek. This satisfied them that their Hellenic identity was not being ch alleged. What surprised Father was that whee the weekday Liturgies were held  a few first generation Greek members came, not to hear the Greek but to translate for the many new converts who came to the services, oddly enough they supported the English services on Sundays because they wanted their Children and grandchildren to worship in their new national language, American English. It appears that the 2nd and 3rd Generation did not understand the Greek Language and were just afraid of the parish losing  its Hellenic identity. By The time we left the parish on  job move over half the parish were coverts, all the services were mostly said in English with a few Ektania's in Greek and the Epistle being read phonically in Greek by those 2 and 3rd generation Greeks who did not understand a word of what they were Reading until it was repeated in English.Gospel read in both English and Greek. Everyone seemed happy and the parish continues to florish but not asmuch as the much larger  Antiochian Parish in the same city.

What has this to do with the discussion?  We're discussing Antiochians and OCAs, not the Greeks (yes, some language has come up, but with respect to Arabic and Slavonic, not Greek).  There are too many people on this board who use any subject thread, no matter how far removed from the subject, to take a swing at the Greeks and the practice of the Orthodox faith.
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« Reply #55 on: May 18, 2014, 02:20:31 PM »

When  first converted we attended the closest parish which was a Greek Parish, when our second priest began to use English as the primary language of the Liturgy many  2nd and 3rd generation adults complained until he told them  that all weekday liturgies would be in Greek. This satisfied them that their Hellenic identity was not being ch alleged. What surprised Father was that whee the weekday Liturgies were held  a few first generation Greek members came, not to hear the Greek but to translate for the many new converts who came to the services, oddly enough they supported the English services on Sundays because they wanted their Children and grandchildren to worship in their new national language, American English. It appears that the 2nd and 3rd Generation did not understand the Greek Language and were just afraid of the parish losing  its Hellenic identity. By The time we left the parish on  job move over half the parish were coverts, all the services were mostly said in English with a few Ektania's in Greek and the Epistle being read phonically in Greek by those 2 and 3rd generation Greeks who did not understand a word of what they were Reading until it was repeated in English.Gospel read in both English and Greek. Everyone seemed happy and the parish continues to florish but not asmuch as the much larger  Antiochian Parish in the same city.

What has this to do with the discussion?  We're discussing Antiochians and OCAs, not the Greeks (yes, some language has come up, but with respect to Arabic and Slavonic, not Greek).  There are too many people on this board who use any subject thread, no matter how far removed from the subject, to take a swing at the Greeks and the practice of the Orthodox faith.

Why don't you report him to the moderator for off topic comments deriding Greeks and the(ir?) practice of the Orthodox faith? 
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« Reply #56 on: May 18, 2014, 02:22:18 PM »

My son and his wife attended an Antiochian parish in Albany, NY for several years while in graduate school. The parish was small, very ethnic and with an immigrant priest from Lebanon, if I recall. Liturgy was 50/50 Arabic and English, and the epistle, gospel and homily were always given in both Arabic and English. But the people were kind, gracious and welcoming and my family felt like they were part of their families. This was during the period when my daughter-in-law had converted to Orthodoxy and their warmth truly made her feel part of things.

I would bet that no more than 10% of our Antiochian clergy in the US could read the Gospel, or give a sermon in Arabic. When I was in seminary I took a course in Arabic and made an A. I got back a message from Metropolitan informing me  that he did not want me to spend too  much time studying Arabic, because it is more important for me to spend my time trying to  learn Orthodox theology.

Fr. John M. Morris.
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« Reply #57 on: May 18, 2014, 02:35:25 PM »

When  first converted we attended the closest parish which was a Greek Parish, when our second priest began to use English as the primary language of the Liturgy many  2nd and 3rd generation adults complained until he told them  that all weekday liturgies would be in Greek. This satisfied them that their Hellenic identity was not being ch alleged. What surprised Father was that whee the weekday Liturgies were held  a few first generation Greek members came, not to hear the Greek but to translate for the many new converts who came to the services, oddly enough they supported the English services on Sundays because they wanted their Children and grandchildren to worship in their new national language, American English. It appears that the 2nd and 3rd Generation did not understand the Greek Language and were just afraid of the parish losing  its Hellenic identity. By The time we left the parish on  job move over half the parish were coverts, all the services were mostly said in English with a few Ektania's in Greek and the Epistle being read phonically in Greek by those 2 and 3rd generation Greeks who did not understand a word of what they were Reading until it was repeated in English.Gospel read in both English and Greek. Everyone seemed happy and the parish continues to florish but not asmuch as the much larger  Antiochian Parish in the same city.

What has this to do with the discussion?  We're discussing Antiochians and OCAs, not the Greeks (yes, some language has come up, but with respect to Arabic and Slavonic, not Greek).  There are too many people on this board who use any subject thread, no matter how far removed from the subject, to take a swing at the Greeks and the practice of the Orthodox faith.

Why don't you report him to the moderator for off topic comments deriding Greeks and the(ir?) practice of the Orthodox faith? 

Because he's not the only one and I feel it is far better to be reprimanded by a commoner on OC.net rather than to have the heavy hand of a moderator with an itchy trigger finger on the "moderate" button make the call.
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« Reply #58 on: May 18, 2014, 03:36:17 PM »

A couple of years ago my small parish invited an Arabic speaking priest to concelebrate with our priest. The service was as close to possible 50-50. We wanted to honour our Arabic-speaking members and entice some of the Arabic speaking "onlookers" who have never attended to at least pay a visit. Not one single Arabic speaking member of the congregation showed up on that Sunday. Every single one of them stayed away. We will never bother trying that again.
It would be interesting to follow up with them. First, tell them that you are inviting the priest with this in mind. Then if they don't come, act like some companies do and do a feedback survey. Call them up or ask them on Sunday why they didn't come. For example, is it not something that they care at all about? Is it not something that has any appeal to them over a regular service? If not, then what's the point?
Our parish is very small. Having over twenty at DL is a struggle. We have only three or four families that have any sort of Arabic background. Their attendance is irregular, though appreciated when they attend. They seem to head for the larger parishes for Christmas, Easter, etc. I'm quite OK with that. It's disappointing, but I and others who attend faithfully don't hold it against them. They aren't going to change, and except for one family, have all joined the parish (mission) since its inception about 10 years ago, so I suppose we're making some sort of progress. It is true as well that none of them have pressed for more use of Arabic.

Quote
I do know that some parishes with lots of Arab speakers have a significant portion of the service in Arabic.
Unquestionably. As I said, where Arabic serves a useful purpose it should be used.
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« Reply #59 on: May 18, 2014, 05:38:02 PM »

When  first converted we attended the closest parish which was a Greek Parish, when our second priest began to use English as the primary language of the Liturgy many  2nd and 3rd generation adults complained until he told them  that all weekday liturgies would be in Greek. This satisfied them that their Hellenic identity was not being ch alleged. What surprised Father was that whee the weekday Liturgies were held  a few first generation Greek members came, not to hear the Greek but to translate for the many new converts who came to the services, oddly enough they supported the English services on Sundays because they wanted their Children and grandchildren to worship in their new national language, American English. It appears that the 2nd and 3rd Generation did not understand the Greek Language and were just afraid of the parish losing  its Hellenic identity. By The time we left the parish on  job move over half the parish were coverts, all the services were mostly said in English with a few Ektania's in Greek and the Epistle being read phonically in Greek by those 2 and 3rd generation Greeks who did not understand a word of what they were Reading until it was repeated in English.Gospel read in both English and Greek. Everyone seemed happy and the parish continues to florish but not asmuch as the much larger  Antiochian Parish in the same city.

What has this to do with the discussion?  We're discussing Antiochians and OCAs, not the Greeks (yes, some language has come up, but with respect to Arabic and Slavonic, not Greek).  There are too many people on this board who use any subject thread, no matter how far removed from the subject, to take a swing at the Greeks and the practice of the Orthodox faith.

Why don't you report him to the moderator for off topic comments deriding Greeks and the(ir?) practice of the Orthodox faith? 

Because he's not the only one and I feel it is far better to be reprimanded by a commoner on OC.net rather than to have the heavy hand of a moderator with an itchy trigger finger on the "moderate" button make the call.

I guess you didn't get it...
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« Reply #60 on: May 18, 2014, 06:19:02 PM »

When  first converted we attended the closest parish which was a Greek Parish, when our second priest began to use English as the primary language of the Liturgy many  2nd and 3rd generation adults complained until he told them  that all weekday liturgies would be in Greek. This satisfied them that their Hellenic identity was not being ch alleged. What surprised Father was that whee the weekday Liturgies were held  a few first generation Greek members came, not to hear the Greek but to translate for the many new converts who came to the services, oddly enough they supported the English services on Sundays because they wanted their Children and grandchildren to worship in their new national language, American English. It appears that the 2nd and 3rd Generation did not understand the Greek Language and were just afraid of the parish losing  its Hellenic identity. By The time we left the parish on  job move over half the parish were coverts, all the services were mostly said in English with a few Ektania's in Greek and the Epistle being read phonically in Greek by those 2 and 3rd generation Greeks who did not understand a word of what they were Reading until it was repeated in English.Gospel read in both English and Greek. Everyone seemed happy and the parish continues to florish but not asmuch as the much larger  Antiochian Parish in the same city.

What has this to do with the discussion?  We're discussing Antiochians and OCAs, not the Greeks (yes, some language has come up, but with respect to Arabic and Slavonic, not Greek).  There are too many people on this board who use any subject thread, no matter how far removed from the subject, to take a swing at the Greeks and the practice of the Orthodox faith.

Why don't you report him to the moderator for off topic comments deriding Greeks and the(ir?) practice of the Orthodox faith? 

Because he's not the only one and I feel it is far better to be reprimanded by a commoner on OC.net rather than to have the heavy hand of a moderator with an itchy trigger finger on the "moderate" button make the call.

I guess you didn't get it...

Then enlighten me and spare me the condescension.
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« Reply #61 on: May 18, 2014, 06:57:00 PM »

Good gosh, some of you people get way to wound up about innocent things.  The OP is clearly inquiring about how the two different jurisdictions might do some things differently.  No one is looking for a "bash on OCA or Antioch" thread. There is nothing wrong with asking about how other jurisdictions might do things differently.
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« Reply #62 on: May 18, 2014, 08:09:36 PM »

I apologize for my personal comment below:
"When  first converted we attended the closest parish which was a Greek Parish, when our second priest began to use English as the primary language of the Liturgy many  2nd and 3rd generation adults complained until he told them  that all weekday liturgies would be in Greek. This satisfied them that their Hellenic identity was not being ch alleged. What surprised Father was that whee the weekday Liturgies were held  a few first generation Greek members came, not to hear the Greek but to translate for the many new converts who came to the services, oddly enough they supported the English services on Sundays because they wanted their Children and grandchildren to worship in their new national language, American English. It appears that the 2nd and 3rd Generation did not understand the Greek Language and were just afraid of the parish losing  its Hellenic identity. By The time we left the parish on  job move over half the parish were coverts, all the services were mostly said in English with a few Ektania's in Greek and the Epistle being read phonically in Greek by those 2 and 3rd generation Greeks who did not understand a word of what they were Reading until it was repeated in English.Gospel read in both English and Greek. Everyone seemed happy and the parish continues to florish but not asmuch as the much larger  Antiochian Parish in the same city."

I felt my own pwersonal experience drew attention to the fact that all jurisdictions have some level of that language issue in it in some level, not just a difference between the OCA and the Antiochians. I did not mean to sabotage or let the topic be side tracked. I posted as a commentator not as a moderator (please note it was not in green). I am sorry it has led to more off topic discussion than I had expected, I had hoped it  might bring things back to center again. Please forgive me.

Thomas


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« Reply #63 on: May 18, 2014, 09:31:14 PM »

When  first converted we attended the closest parish which was a Greek Parish, when our second priest began to use English as the primary language of the Liturgy many  2nd and 3rd generation adults complained until he told them  that all weekday liturgies would be in Greek. This satisfied them that their Hellenic identity was not being ch alleged. What surprised Father was that whee the weekday Liturgies were held  a few first generation Greek members came, not to hear the Greek but to translate for the many new converts who came to the services, oddly enough they supported the English services on Sundays because they wanted their Children and grandchildren to worship in their new national language, American English. It appears that the 2nd and 3rd Generation did not understand the Greek Language and were just afraid of the parish losing  its Hellenic identity. By The time we left the parish on  job move over half the parish were coverts, all the services were mostly said in English with a few Ektania's in Greek and the Epistle being read phonically in Greek by those 2 and 3rd generation Greeks who did not understand a word of what they were Reading until it was repeated in English.Gospel read in both English and Greek. Everyone seemed happy and the parish continues to florish but not asmuch as the much larger  Antiochian Parish in the same city.

What has this to do with the discussion?  We're discussing Antiochians and OCAs, not the Greeks (yes, some language has come up, but with respect to Arabic and Slavonic, not Greek).  There are too many people on this board who use any subject thread, no matter how far removed from the subject, to take a swing at the Greeks and the practice of the Orthodox faith.

Why don't you report him to the moderator for off topic comments deriding Greeks and the(ir?) practice of the Orthodox faith? 

Because he's not the only one and I feel it is far better to be reprimanded by a commoner on OC.net rather than to have the heavy hand of a moderator with an itchy trigger finger on the "moderate" button make the call.

I guess you didn't get it...

Then enlighten me and spare me the condescension.

Thomas is the moderator of this section. 
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« Reply #64 on: May 18, 2014, 09:45:09 PM »

Thomas, I think your post was the most on-topic and useful post on this page.
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« Reply #65 on: May 18, 2014, 10:24:28 PM »

I apologize for my personal comment below:
"When  first converted we attended the closest parish which was a Greek Parish, when our second priest began to use English as the primary language of the Liturgy many  2nd and 3rd generation adults complained until he told them  that all weekday liturgies would be in Greek. This satisfied them that their Hellenic identity was not being ch alleged. What surprised Father was that whee the weekday Liturgies were held  a few first generation Greek members came, not to hear the Greek but to translate for the many new converts who came to the services, oddly enough they supported the English services on Sundays because they wanted their Children and grandchildren to worship in their new national language, American English. It appears that the 2nd and 3rd Generation did not understand the Greek Language and were just afraid of the parish losing  its Hellenic identity. By The time we left the parish on  job move over half the parish were coverts, all the services were mostly said in English with a few Ektania's in Greek and the Epistle being read phonically in Greek by those 2 and 3rd generation Greeks who did not understand a word of what they were Reading until it was repeated in English.Gospel read in both English and Greek. Everyone seemed happy and the parish continues to florish but not asmuch as the much larger  Antiochian Parish in the same city."

I felt my own pwersonal experience drew attention to the fact that all jurisdictions have some level of that language issue in it in some level, not just a difference between the OCA and the Antiochians. I did not mean to sabotage or let the topic be side tracked. I posted as a commentator not as a moderator (please note it was not in green). I am sorry it has led to more off topic discussion than I had expected, I had hoped it  might bring things back to center again. Please forgive me.

Thomas




No apology necessary.  I see where you were going with this which I failed to originally.  At the same time, I'm troubled about how many subjects have gone off topic so that some may air their own grievances with the GOA.
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« Reply #66 on: May 21, 2014, 12:40:38 PM »

I really do not see any major differences.( My personal opinion is get rid of the organs) My suggestion is, why don't you use a prayer book to follow the services. I do this she nI visit the monastery in Jordanville NY. Most is in Slavonic.
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« Reply #67 on: May 21, 2014, 04:49:39 PM »


No apology necessary.  I see where you were going with this which I failed to originally.  At the same time, I'm troubled about how many subjects have gone off topic so that some may air their own grievances with the GOA everything and anything.

Fixed that for you.  Wink
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« Reply #68 on: May 21, 2014, 04:57:08 PM »


No apology necessary.  I see where you were going with this which I failed to originally.  At the same time, I'm troubled about how many subjects have gone off topic so that some may air their own grievances with the GOA everything and anything.

Fixed that for you.  Wink

Sounds about right. A lot of grievances lately have been Antiochian-related, so I think it's more a flavor-of-the-month sort of think rather than singling out the GOA specifically.
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« Reply #69 on: May 21, 2014, 07:34:58 PM »


No apology necessary.  I see where you were going with this which I failed to originally.  At the same time, I'm troubled about how many subjects have gone off topic so that some may air their own grievances with the GOA everything and anything.

Fixed that for you.  Wink

Denise, you haven't been here for that long so trust me when I say that a great many threads here are hijacked to impugn the Greeks and/or the GO A.
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« Reply #70 on: May 21, 2014, 07:37:57 PM »


No apology necessary.  I see where you were going with this which I failed to originally.  At the same time, I'm troubled about how many subjects have gone off topic so that some may air their own grievances with the GOA everything and anything.

Fixed that for you.  Wink

Denise, you haven't been here for that long so trust me when I say that a great many threads here are hijacked to impugn the Greeks and/or the GO A.

And Russians, and Antiochians, and just about everyone else.  And there are as many that are imagined to be so but are not in reality. 
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« Reply #71 on: May 21, 2014, 07:38:49 PM »


No apology necessary.  I see where you were going with this which I failed to originally.  At the same time, I'm troubled about how many subjects have gone off topic so that some may air their own grievances with the GOA everything and anything.

Fixed that for you.  Wink

Denise, you haven't been here for that long so trust me when I say that a great many threads here are hijacked to impugn the Greeks and/or the GO A.

And just as many about the OCA, and the Antiochians and and and. 

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« Reply #72 on: May 21, 2014, 09:10:40 PM »


No apology necessary.  I see where you were going with this which I failed to originally.  At the same time, I'm troubled about how many subjects have gone off topic so that some may air their own grievances with the GOA everything and anything.

Fixed that for you.  Wink

Denise, you haven't been here for that long so trust me when I say that a great many threads here are hijacked to impugn the Greeks and/or the GO A.
I think that we can all agree that it would be better if we made better use of our hijacking so that we might impugn the godless Coptics.  Wink
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« Reply #73 on: May 22, 2014, 08:13:50 AM »

So off topic, I am closing this topic.
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