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Author Topic: OCA vs. Antiochian  (Read 1959 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: May 14, 2014, 06:29:54 PM »

Anyone care to highlight some of the differences?
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« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2014, 06:32:09 PM »

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« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2014, 06:45:41 PM »

*braces self for onslaught*

 Grin
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« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2014, 06:47:27 PM »

Anyone care to highlight some of the differences?

Russian roots vs Lebanese/Syrian which affect liturgics.  That's all that is necessary to know.

Every parish is different.  You can find some OCA parishes that are more "Greek" than Antiochian and vice versa and everything in between.

Next subject please.
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« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2014, 06:48:28 PM »

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I won't be that bad.  Wink
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« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2014, 06:56:56 PM »

Anyone care to highlight some of the differences?

Russian roots vs Lebanese/Syrian which affect liturgics.  That's all that is necessary to know.

Every parish is different.  You can find some OCA parishes that are more "Greek" than Antiochian and vice versa and everything in between.

Next subject please.
Amen.
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« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2014, 07:23:11 PM »

Anyone care to highlight some of the differences?

Russian roots vs Lebanese/Syrian which affect liturgics.  That's all that is necessary to know.

Every parish is different.  You can find some OCA parishes that are more "Greek" than Antiochian and vice versa and everything in between.

Next subject please.

I'm not converting but I'm curious. Theoretically speaking, you as an OCA parishioner or an Antiochian parishioner would have no problem switching to the opposite church provided the opposite church speaks relatively the same amount of Greek. Practically speaking, does this happen? Would anyone want this to happen?
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« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2014, 07:29:44 PM »

Anyone care to highlight some of the differences?

Russian roots vs Lebanese/Syrian which affect liturgics.  That's all that is necessary to know.

Every parish is different.  You can find some OCA parishes that are more "Greek" than Antiochian and vice versa and everything in between.

Next subject please.

I'm not converting but I'm curious. Theoretically speaking, you as an OCA parishioner or an Antiochian parishioner would have no problem switching to the opposite church provided the opposite church speaks relatively the same amount of Greek. Practically speaking, does this happen? Would anyone want this to happen?

I have no idea if it happens. I just asked for my ow personal info., and I mostly wanted to know about the language differences if any. Somehow I assumed (maybe wrongly) that Antiochian used Arabic sometimes.
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« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2014, 07:38:17 PM »

Liturgics. That's it. The local Antiochian parish sings Russian four part and Antioch chant.
Mostly Liturgics that the casual observer won't notice the difference.  You'd have to know the services inside and out to notice.
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« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2014, 07:43:36 PM »

Yes the local Antiochian church uses a bit of Greek and arabic.
Oca uses a bit of church slavonic depending on the parish.
There are oca churches that use all slavonic and ones ..Most parishes use english.
Same for the Antiochian churches. Some might use more arabic than others some might use only english.
Each parish is unique regardless of jurisdiction.
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« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2014, 07:51:02 PM »

EDIT:

Apologies.  Wrong Thread.
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« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2014, 08:00:05 PM »

Where I live, the OCA and Antiochian parishes both use English for everything.  Sure, the priests may do a portion here and there in Slavonic or Arabic.  If my only option was an Antiochian parish, I'd happily go.  I once visited an OCA parish that had a resident Russian priest and the parish had DL in Slavonic twice a month.  Either way, English or Slavonic, it was well-attended by immigrants or locals.  I've yet to go to an Antiochian parish where the DL is done with more than 10% Arabic.
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« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2014, 08:06:29 PM »

I've yet to go to an Antiochian parish where the DL is done with more than 10% Arabic.

LOL, I've had the exact opposite experience. 
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« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2014, 08:10:29 PM »

I've yet to go to an Antiochian parish where the DL is done with more than 10% Arabic.

LOL, I've had the exact opposite experience. 

Don't you live in NYC or something?   Tongue I wouldn't expect any other way!  I look forward to going to a full Arabic Liturgy, heck even a full Greek Liturgy.
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« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2014, 09:07:19 PM »

Don't you live in NYC or something?   Tongue I wouldn't expect any other way!  I look forward to going to a full Arabic Liturgy, heck even a full Greek Liturgy.


The full Greek Liturgies in the area are, on the whole, a more aesthetically pleasing experience than the (close to) full Arabic Liturgies in the area.  At least that is my experience.  Maybe I need to get out more. 
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« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2014, 09:09:33 PM »

Don't you live in NYC or something?   Tongue I wouldn't expect any other way!  I look forward to going to a full Arabic Liturgy, heck even a full Greek Liturgy.


The full Greek Liturgies in the area are, on the whole, a more aesthetically pleasing experience than the (close to) full Arabic Liturgies in the area.  At least that is my experience.  Maybe I need to get out more. 
Pleasing in what way?
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« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2014, 09:18:38 PM »

The full Greek Liturgies in the area are, on the whole, a more aesthetically pleasing experience than the (close to) full Arabic Liturgies in the area.  At least that is my experience.  Maybe I need to get out more. 
Pleasing in what way?

Both are beautiful languages.  Presuming Byzantine chant for both, I have a slight preference for Arabic, even though I understand much less of it...it sounds more pleasing to my ears.  But the Arabic chanters I've heard are not as good as the Greek chanters (I'm not including priests in this comparison), and I prefer beautifully sung Greek to not as beautifully sung Arabic.   
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« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2014, 09:26:54 PM »

Liturgics. That's it. The local Antiochian parish sings Russian four part and Antioch chant.
Mostly Liturgics that the casual observer won't notice the difference.  You'd have to know the services inside and out to notice.

The main difference is in the first part of the Divine Liturgy. The Antiochian practice (in line with the Greek reforms of the late 19th Century) is to use the festal antiphons during ordinary Sundays.
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« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2014, 09:35:26 PM »

The full Greek Liturgies in the area are, on the whole, a more aesthetically pleasing experience than the (close to) full Arabic Liturgies in the area.  At least that is my experience.  Maybe I need to get out more.  
Pleasing in what way?

Both are beautiful languages.  Presuming Byzantine chant for both, I have a slight preference for Arabic, even though I understand much less of it...it sounds more pleasing to my ears.  But the Arabic chanters I've heard are not as good as the Greek chanters (I'm not including priests in this comparison), and I prefer beautifully sung Greek to not as beautifully sung Arabic.    

Perhaps I am prejudiced, but I think that the Bulgarian adaptation of the Byzantine chant is most pleasing to my ear. Check out this  video of Patriarch Neofit, who is chanting "The Angel Cried..." in Church Slavonic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxvqhkTf-Eo
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« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2014, 09:36:22 PM »

Okay let's go even deeper..The prayer of the 3rd hour during the epeclesis is a Slavic practice.
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« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2014, 09:48:47 PM »

The full Greek Liturgies in the area are, on the whole, a more aesthetically pleasing experience than the (close to) full Arabic Liturgies in the area.  At least that is my experience.  Maybe I need to get out more. 
Pleasing in what way?

Both are beautiful languages.  Presuming Byzantine chant for both, I have a slight preference for Arabic, even though I understand much less of it...it sounds more pleasing to my ears.  But the Arabic chanters I've heard are not as good as the Greek chanters (I'm not including priests in this comparison), and I prefer beautifully sung Greek to not as beautifully sung Arabic.   

+1.

THe only Arab chanters we have in my church can only read Arabic phonetically.  I once was told by a native Lebanese who was visiting that our "arab" chanters routinely ruin their beautiful language. Chanting bad Arabic just adds insult to injury.
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« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2014, 09:55:38 PM »

Perhaps I am prejudiced, but I think that the Bulgarian adaptation of the Byzantine chant is most pleasing to my ear. Check out this  video of Patriarch Neofit, who is chanting "The Angel Cried..." in Church Slavonic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxvqhkTf-Eo


A beautiful prejudice....thank you for sharing that.
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« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2014, 09:56:33 PM »

The full Greek Liturgies in the area are, on the whole, a more aesthetically pleasing experience than the (close to) full Arabic Liturgies in the area.  At least that is my experience.  Maybe I need to get out more. 
Pleasing in what way?

Both are beautiful languages.  Presuming Byzantine chant for both, I have a slight preference for Arabic, even though I understand much less of it...it sounds more pleasing to my ears.  But the Arabic chanters I've heard are not as good as the Greek chanters (I'm not including priests in this comparison), and I prefer beautifully sung Greek to not as beautifully sung Arabic.   

Then again, isn't beautifully-sung anything better? Wink
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« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2014, 09:57:48 PM »

Perhaps I am prejudiced, but I think that the Bulgarian adaptation of the Byzantine chant is most pleasing to my ear. Check out this  video of Patriarch Neofit, who is chanting "The Angel Cried..." in Church Slavonic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxvqhkTf-Eo


A beautiful prejudice....thank you for sharing that.
+1
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« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2014, 09:57:59 PM »

Anyone care to highlight some of the differences?

Russian roots vs Lebanese/Syrian which affect liturgics.  That's all that is necessary to know.

Every parish is different.  You can find some OCA parishes that are more "Greek" than Antiochian and vice versa and everything in between.

Next subject please.

I'm not converting but I'm curious. Theoretically speaking, you as an OCA parishioner or an Antiochian parishioner would have no problem switching to the opposite church provided the opposite church speaks relatively the same amount of Greek. Practically speaking, does this happen? Would anyone want this to happen?

Speaking Greek really has nothing to do with it. People move from OCA to Antiochian to Greek to Russian o whatever parishes all the time with no problem. The faith is the same. The sacraments are the same.
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« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2014, 09:58:24 PM »

Perhaps I am prejudiced, but I think that the Bulgarian adaptation of the Byzantine chant is most pleasing to my ear. Check out this  video of Patriarch Neofit, who is chanting "The Angel Cried..." in Church Slavonic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxvqhkTf-Eo


That's quite beautiful, but I'm not sufficiently familiar with the ins and outs of Byzantine chant to really tell the difference between regional adaptations (I've heard Byzantine chant in person in Greek, Arabic, English, and Romanian).  Do you have any other Bulgarian recommendations?  
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« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2014, 10:01:28 PM »

The full Greek Liturgies in the area are, on the whole, a more aesthetically pleasing experience than the (close to) full Arabic Liturgies in the area.  At least that is my experience.  Maybe I need to get out more.  
Pleasing in what way?

Both are beautiful languages.  Presuming Byzantine chant for both, I have a slight preference for Arabic, even though I understand much less of it...it sounds more pleasing to my ears.  But the Arabic chanters I've heard are not as good as the Greek chanters (I'm not including priests in this comparison), and I prefer beautifully sung Greek to not as beautifully sung Arabic.    

Perhaps I am prejudiced, but I think that the Bulgarian adaptation of the Byzantine chant is most pleasing to my ear. Check out this  video of Patriarch Neofit, who is chanting "The Angel Cried..." in Church Slavonic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxvqhkTf-Eo

I've always loved Bulgarian adaptations of Byzantine chant. There was a Bulgarian recording on youtube that I particularly liked of "Receive the Body of Christ," but I can no longer find it.  Sad
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« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2014, 12:09:20 AM »


Both are beautiful languages.  Presuming Byzantine chant for both, I have a slight preference for Arabic, even though I understand much less of it...it sounds more pleasing to my ears.  But the Arabic chanters I've heard are not as good as the Greek chanters (I'm not including priests in this comparison), and I prefer beautifully sung Greek to not as beautifully sung Arabic.   

Byzantine chant is a very, very stern mistress. When it's good, it's heavenly. When it's even slightly not good, it's ghastly.
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« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2014, 08:12:14 AM »


Both are beautiful languages.  Presuming Byzantine chant for both, I have a slight preference for Arabic, even though I understand much less of it...it sounds more pleasing to my ears.  But the Arabic chanters I've heard are not as good as the Greek chanters (I'm not including priests in this comparison), and I prefer beautifully sung Greek to not as beautifully sung Arabic.   

Byzantine chant is a very, very stern mistress. When it's good, it's heavenly. When it's even slightly not good, it's ghastly.


PP
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« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2014, 10:27:27 AM »

Perhaps I am prejudiced, but I think that the Bulgarian adaptation of the Byzantine chant is most pleasing to my ear. Check out this  video of Patriarch Neofit, who is chanting "The Angel Cried..." in Church Slavonic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxvqhkTf-Eo


That's quite beautiful, but I'm not sufficiently familiar with the ins and outs of Byzantine chant to really tell the difference between regional adaptations (I've heard Byzantine chant in person in Greek, Arabic, English, and Romanian).  Do you have any other Bulgarian recommendations?  

Sure. Please note the tendency to veer off ever so slightly toward the western ear and musical sensibilities. I am also including some Serbian chanting that is equally beautiful (and sung by a very talented artist, Divna Ljubojević).

Serbian: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFBCGhb4yu8
Bulgarian: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcNgfDsPrnw

Some more from Patriarch Neofit (who sounds like my late father, the best chanter I ever heard).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYx5DiBr9KE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hBwc1BBtv0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EYVw7zHUrM
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« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2014, 09:26:47 PM »

Our parish has two priests most Sundays being an Anitochian church the parish priest is Antiochian, of course, but his backup most Sundays and sub when he's not there is OCA. We do 99% of the service in English but when we go multilingual we do Greek, Slavonic, Arabic, and sometimes Spanish. We use Byzantine music and Russian four part music, too. So yes there are the differences in details that have been mentioned above, but more similarity than difference I would think. But maybe that just us.
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« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2014, 09:42:48 PM »

There are tons of small differences like I said. Most are not anything the laity are going to recognize or hear.
Stated here so far;
The antiphons are different
No 3rd hour prayer during the epeclesis in the Antiochian church( you wouldn't hear this anyway from the pews)
Style of chanting during the "propers" is antiochian style byzantine chant where as the OCA usually uses Obikhod.
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« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2014, 10:20:11 PM »

fish n chips  police
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« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2014, 01:00:54 AM »

The full Greek Liturgies in the area are, on the whole, a more aesthetically pleasing experience than the (close to) full Arabic Liturgies in the area.  At least that is my experience.  Maybe I need to get out more. 
Pleasing in what way?

Both are beautiful languages.  Presuming Byzantine chant for both, I have a slight preference for Arabic, even though I understand much less of it...it sounds more pleasing to my ears.  But the Arabic chanters I've heard are not as good as the Greek chanters (I'm not including priests in this comparison), and I prefer beautifully sung Greek to not as beautifully sung Arabic.   

+1.

THe only Arab chanters we have in my church can only read Arabic phonetically.  I once was told by a native Lebanese who was visiting that our "arab" chanters routinely ruin their beautiful language. Chanting bad Arabic just adds insult to injury.

One of my brother Priests who is also a non-Arab, but shall remain unnamed told that once Metropolitan Philip visited his parish. During the Matins, he noticed that His Eminence was getting more and more agitated. Finally, he said to the Priest, do you know what they are saying, they are mispronouncing the words and are cussing.
In my parish, which uses all English, we have a display case of items from the history of our parish which was founded in 1906. There is an old Arabic service book in the case. One Sunday, a traveler from Lebanon visited our parish. He called me to the side and told me that the book is upside down.

Fr. John W. Morris.
 
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« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2014, 01:04:34 AM »

Don't you live in NYC or something?   Tongue I wouldn't expect any other way!  I look forward to going to a full Arabic Liturgy, heck even a full Greek Liturgy.


The full Greek Liturgies in the area are, on the whole, a more aesthetically pleasing experience than the (close to) full Arabic Liturgies in the area.  At least that is my experience.  Maybe I need to get out more. 

I have been an Antiochian Priest for over 34 years and have yet to attend a Divine Liturgy completely or even mostly in Arabic.

Fr. John W. Morris.
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« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2014, 01:05:15 AM »

During the Matins, he noticed that His Eminence was getting more and more agitated. Finally, he said to the Priest, do you know what they are saying, they are mispronouncing the words and are cussing.

I love when that happens.  I've heard it.  I may have even done it once or twice.  Tongue
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« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2014, 01:59:25 AM »

During the Matins, he noticed that His Eminence was getting more and more agitated. Finally, he said to the Priest, do you know what they are saying, they are mispronouncing the words and are cussing.

I love when that happens.  I've heard it.  I may have even done it once or twice.  Tongue

Oh there is the incident where the new priest only slightly mispronounces an arabic word:

So, this one priest was trying to say: "Lord bless the people," but he actually said: "Lord bless the horses."
From what I heard of this event, there was not a dry eye in that Cathedral.
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« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2014, 02:43:26 AM »

The full Greek Liturgies in the area are, on the whole, a more aesthetically pleasing experience than the (close to) full Arabic Liturgies in the area.  At least that is my experience.  Maybe I need to get out more. 
Pleasing in what way?

Both are beautiful languages.  Presuming Byzantine chant for both, I have a slight preference for Arabic, even though I understand much less of it...it sounds more pleasing to my ears.  But the Arabic chanters I've heard are not as good as the Greek chanters (I'm not including priests in this comparison), and I prefer beautifully sung Greek to not as beautifully sung Arabic.   

+1.

THe only Arab chanters we have in my church can only read Arabic phonetically.  I once was told by a native Lebanese who was visiting that our "arab" chanters routinely ruin their beautiful language. Chanting bad Arabic just adds insult to injury.

One of my brother Priests who is also a non-Arab, but shall remain unnamed told that once Metropolitan Philip visited his parish. During the Matins, he noticed that His Eminence was getting more and more agitated. Finally, he said to the Priest, do you know what they are saying, they are mispronouncing the words and are cussing.
In my parish, which uses all English, we have a display case of items from the history of our parish which was founded in 1906. There is an old Arabic service book in the case. One Sunday, a traveler from Lebanon visited our parish. He called me to the side and told me that the book is upside down.

Fr. John W. Morris.
 
Could be worse: I was at a Romanian Church in the US that had a cloth covering a table had the Muslim creed written along the border.
There was a PhD dissertation at my Alma Mater that studied Renaissance paintings that had the Madonna wearing robes that had Muslim formulae written on them.
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« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2014, 03:06:59 AM »

Renaissance paintings that had the Madonna wearing robes that had Muslim formulae written on them.

I've heard of this, only I believe it even goes way further back than the Renaissance. Something like medieval Muslim artisans making icons/paintings/etc. to sell to pilgrims going to the Holy Land - only they were interwoven with finely subtle Islamic calligraphy unbeknownst to the ignorant pilgrim. I believe it came up in a graduate course my father had taken on a related subject... I'll have to ask him about it again sometime.
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« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2014, 03:11:37 AM »

Renaissance paintings that had the Madonna wearing robes that had Muslim formulae written on them.

I've heard of this, only I believe it even goes way further back than the Renaissance. Something like medieval Muslim artisans making icons/paintings/etc. to sell to pilgrims going to the Holy Land - only they were interwoven with finely subtle Islamic calligraphy unbeknownst to the ignorant pilgrim. I believe it came up in a graduate course my father had taken on a related subject... I'll have to ask him about it again sometime.

Good to know before buying anything on eBay.

Note: I have not yet purchased anything from eBay.
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« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2014, 03:31:28 AM »

Good to know before buying anything on eBay.

Note: I have not yet purchased anything from eBay.

I'd say buying icons on Ebay is fine. Most of it it either comes from Eastern Europe or Greece, and there isn't much on there from the Middle East, other than perhaps the occasional "Holy Land Starter Souvenir Kit" with dirt, water, and a crucifix or an icon. I doubt those come from Muslims though, and even if they did I don't imagine they're secretly inscribing Islamic stuff anywhere. I'm pretty sure the practice disappeared a long time ago.
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« Reply #41 on: May 17, 2014, 07:19:09 AM »

OP there is no versus. Please don't pretend churches in communion are in some sort of fight.
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« Reply #42 on: May 17, 2014, 08:28:54 AM »

Don't you live in NYC or something?   Tongue I wouldn't expect any other way!  I look forward to going to a full Arabic Liturgy, heck even a full Greek Liturgy.


The full Greek Liturgies in the area are, on the whole, a more aesthetically pleasing experience than the (close to) full Arabic Liturgies in the area.  At least that is my experience.  Maybe I need to get out more. 

I have been an Antiochian Priest for over 34 years and have yet to attend a Divine Liturgy completely or even mostly in Arabic.

Fr. John W. Morris.

The Antiochian parish in Indianapolis, St. George, conducts Divine Liturgies in Arabic once per month. My father does the chanting, and I'd put him in the top 1% of Arabic chanters, at least in the US. And yes, I'll acknowledge my bias.
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« Reply #43 on: May 17, 2014, 10:42:36 AM »

OP there is no versus. Please don't pretend churches in communion are in some sort of fight.

Well said. The question speaks more to Western legalism than to an Orthodox heart.
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« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2014, 12:12:22 PM »


I have been an Antiochian Priest for over 34 years and have yet to attend a Divine Liturgy completely or even mostly in Arabic.

Fr. John W. Morris.

A couple of years ago my small parish invited an Arabic speaking priest to concelebrate with our priest. The service was as close to possible 50-50. We wanted to honour our Arabic-speaking members and entice some of the Arabic speaking "onlookers" who have never attended to at least pay a visit. Not one single Arabic speaking member of the congregation showed up on that Sunday. Every single one of them stayed away. We will never bother trying that again.

That said, I'm not opposed to the use of Arabic (or other heritage language) where it serves a useful purpose.
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« Reply #45 on: May 17, 2014, 12:40:09 PM »

OP there is no versus. Please don't pretend churches in communion are in some sort of fight.

Well said. The question speaks more to Western legalism than to an Orthodox heart.

Reminds me of when two opposing views collide they set scripture against itself, ignoring the logic that at least one must be wrong on interpretation and therefore the scripture you believe is 'proving them wrong' is going to interpreted differently just like the original scripture was.
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« Reply #46 on: May 17, 2014, 12:41:54 PM »

OP there is no versus. Please don't pretend churches in communion are in some sort of fight.

Well said. The question speaks more to Western legalism than to an Orthodox heart.

While I will grant that the OP is a rather "open" question, I really don't think reactions such as these are justified.  They seem to read a controversy into the question where it doesn't exist. 
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« Reply #47 on: May 17, 2014, 02:27:42 PM »

OP there is no versus. Please don't pretend churches in communion are in some sort of fight.

Well said. The question speaks more to Western legalism than to an Orthodox heart.

While I will grant that the OP is a rather "open" question, I really don't think reactions such as these are justified.  They seem to read a controversy into the question where it doesn't exist. 

I didn't mean to intend it was deliberately done though I see how it appears now.
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« Reply #48 on: May 17, 2014, 02:33:15 PM »

OP there is no versus. Please don't pretend churches in communion are in some sort of fight.

Well said. The question speaks more to Western legalism than to an Orthodox heart.

 Roll Eyes

I'm so sick of this holier than thou attitude.  The ONLY way anyone would think the OP meant 'vs' as in a fight or steel cage match is if they didn't read the first post at all.  "VS" has more than one meaning...but of course everybody already knows that.
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« Reply #49 on: May 17, 2014, 02:51:55 PM »


I have been an Antiochian Priest for over 34 years and have yet to attend a Divine Liturgy completely or even mostly in Arabic.

Fr. John W. Morris.

A couple of years ago my small parish invited an Arabic speaking priest to concelebrate with our priest. The service was as close to possible 50-50. We wanted to honour our Arabic-speaking members and entice some of the Arabic speaking "onlookers" who have never attended to at least pay a visit. Not one single Arabic speaking member of the congregation showed up on that Sunday. Every single one of them stayed away. We will never bother trying that again.

That said, I'm not opposed to the use of Arabic (or other heritage language) where it serves a useful purpose.

In over 34 years of serving as an Antiochian Orthodox Priest, I have yet to see an Arabic speaking family in which the children were taught to speak and write Arabic. Besides, the language the people speak among themselves is a dialect, not the formal classical Arabic used for writing. Arabic is a very difficult language. Written Arabic does not include the vowels which makes reading it even more difficult. I have known highly educated Arabic immigrants who find it easier to read a book in French or English than Arabic.

Fr. John W. Morris.
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« Reply #50 on: May 17, 2014, 03:58:35 PM »

My son and his wife attended an Antiochian parish in Albany, NY for several years while in graduate school. The parish was small, very ethnic and with an immigrant priest from Lebanon, if I recall. Liturgy was 50/50 Arabic and English, and the epistle, gospel and homily were always given in both Arabic and English. But the people were kind, gracious and welcoming and my family felt like they were part of their families. This was during the period when my daughter-in-law had converted to Orthodoxy and their warmth truly made her feel part of things.
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« Reply #51 on: May 18, 2014, 04:59:25 AM »

OP there is no versus. Please don't pretend churches in communion are in some sort of fight.

Well said. The question speaks more to Western legalism than to an Orthodox heart.

 Roll Eyes

I'm so sick of this holier than thou attitude.  The ONLY way anyone would think the OP meant 'vs' as in a fight or steel cage match is if they didn't read the first post at all.  "VS" has more than one meaning...but of course everybody already knows that.

I did read the first post, it says "Anyone care to highlight some of the differences?"

Why is it so unbelievable to have read into this as saying "Which one is preferable?" - and don't pretend some posters here wouldn't see this thread as an opportunity to nay say the other side.
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« Reply #52 on: May 18, 2014, 07:35:15 AM »

When  first converted we attended the closest parish which was a Greek Parish, when our second priest began to use English as the primary language of the Liturgy many  2nd and 3rd generation adults complained until he told them  that all weekday liturgies would be in Greek. This satisfied them that their Hellenic identity was not being ch alleged. What surprised Father was that whee the weekday Liturgies were held  a few first generation Greek members came, not to hear the Greek but to translate for the many new converts who came to the services, oddly enough they supported the English services on Sundays because they wanted their Children and grandchildren to worship in their new national language, American English. It appears that the 2nd and 3rd Generation did not understand the Greek Language and were just afraid of the parish losing  its Hellenic identity. By The time we left the parish on  job move over half the parish were coverts, all the services were mostly said in English with a few Ektania's in Greek and the Epistle being read phonically in Greek by those 2 and 3rd generation Greeks who did not understand a word of what they were Reading until it was repeated in English.Gospel read in both English and Greek. Everyone seemed happy and the parish continues to florish but not asmuch as the much larger  Antiochian Parish in the same city.
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« Reply #53 on: May 18, 2014, 01:32:31 PM »

A couple of years ago my small parish invited an Arabic speaking priest to concelebrate with our priest. The service was as close to possible 50-50. We wanted to honour our Arabic-speaking members and entice some of the Arabic speaking "onlookers" who have never attended to at least pay a visit. Not one single Arabic speaking member of the congregation showed up on that Sunday. Every single one of them stayed away. We will never bother trying that again.
It would be interesting to follow up with them. First, tell them that you are inviting the priest with this in mind. Then if they don't come, act like some companies do and do a feedback survey. Call them up or ask them on Sunday why they didn't come. For example, is it not something that they care at all about? Is it not something that has any appeal to them over a regular service? If not, then what's the point?

I do know that some parishes with lots of Arab speakers have a significant portion of the service in Arabic.
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« Reply #54 on: May 18, 2014, 02:16:46 PM »

When  first converted we attended the closest parish which was a Greek Parish, when our second priest began to use English as the primary language of the Liturgy many  2nd and 3rd generation adults complained until he told them  that all weekday liturgies would be in Greek. This satisfied them that their Hellenic identity was not being ch alleged. What surprised Father was that whee the weekday Liturgies were held  a few first generation Greek members came, not to hear the Greek but to translate for the many new converts who came to the services, oddly enough they supported the English services on Sundays because they wanted their Children and grandchildren to worship in their new national language, American English. It appears that the 2nd and 3rd Generation did not understand the Greek Language and were just afraid of the parish losing  its Hellenic identity. By The time we left the parish on  job move over half the parish were coverts, all the services were mostly said in English with a few Ektania's in Greek and the Epistle being read phonically in Greek by those 2 and 3rd generation Greeks who did not understand a word of what they were Reading until it was repeated in English.Gospel read in both English and Greek. Everyone seemed happy and the parish continues to florish but not asmuch as the much larger  Antiochian Parish in the same city.

What has this to do with the discussion?  We're discussing Antiochians and OCAs, not the Greeks (yes, some language has come up, but with respect to Arabic and Slavonic, not Greek).  There are too many people on this board who use any subject thread, no matter how far removed from the subject, to take a swing at the Greeks and the practice of the Orthodox faith.
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« Reply #55 on: May 18, 2014, 02:20:31 PM »

When  first converted we attended the closest parish which was a Greek Parish, when our second priest began to use English as the primary language of the Liturgy many  2nd and 3rd generation adults complained until he told them  that all weekday liturgies would be in Greek. This satisfied them that their Hellenic identity was not being ch alleged. What surprised Father was that whee the weekday Liturgies were held  a few first generation Greek members came, not to hear the Greek but to translate for the many new converts who came to the services, oddly enough they supported the English services on Sundays because they wanted their Children and grandchildren to worship in their new national language, American English. It appears that the 2nd and 3rd Generation did not understand the Greek Language and were just afraid of the parish losing  its Hellenic identity. By The time we left the parish on  job move over half the parish were coverts, all the services were mostly said in English with a few Ektania's in Greek and the Epistle being read phonically in Greek by those 2 and 3rd generation Greeks who did not understand a word of what they were Reading until it was repeated in English.Gospel read in both English and Greek. Everyone seemed happy and the parish continues to florish but not asmuch as the much larger  Antiochian Parish in the same city.

What has this to do with the discussion?  We're discussing Antiochians and OCAs, not the Greeks (yes, some language has come up, but with respect to Arabic and Slavonic, not Greek).  There are too many people on this board who use any subject thread, no matter how far removed from the subject, to take a swing at the Greeks and the practice of the Orthodox faith.

Why don't you report him to the moderator for off topic comments deriding Greeks and the(ir?) practice of the Orthodox faith? 
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« Reply #56 on: May 18, 2014, 02:22:18 PM »

My son and his wife attended an Antiochian parish in Albany, NY for several years while in graduate school. The parish was small, very ethnic and with an immigrant priest from Lebanon, if I recall. Liturgy was 50/50 Arabic and English, and the epistle, gospel and homily were always given in both Arabic and English. But the people were kind, gracious and welcoming and my family felt like they were part of their families. This was during the period when my daughter-in-law had converted to Orthodoxy and their warmth truly made her feel part of things.

I would bet that no more than 10% of our Antiochian clergy in the US could read the Gospel, or give a sermon in Arabic. When I was in seminary I took a course in Arabic and made an A. I got back a message from Metropolitan informing me  that he did not want me to spend too  much time studying Arabic, because it is more important for me to spend my time trying to  learn Orthodox theology.

Fr. John M. Morris.
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« Reply #57 on: May 18, 2014, 02:35:25 PM »

When  first converted we attended the closest parish which was a Greek Parish, when our second priest began to use English as the primary language of the Liturgy many  2nd and 3rd generation adults complained until he told them  that all weekday liturgies would be in Greek. This satisfied them that their Hellenic identity was not being ch alleged. What surprised Father was that whee the weekday Liturgies were held  a few first generation Greek members came, not to hear the Greek but to translate for the many new converts who came to the services, oddly enough they supported the English services on Sundays because they wanted their Children and grandchildren to worship in their new national language, American English. It appears that the 2nd and 3rd Generation did not understand the Greek Language and were just afraid of the parish losing  its Hellenic identity. By The time we left the parish on  job move over half the parish were coverts, all the services were mostly said in English with a few Ektania's in Greek and the Epistle being read phonically in Greek by those 2 and 3rd generation Greeks who did not understand a word of what they were Reading until it was repeated in English.Gospel read in both English and Greek. Everyone seemed happy and the parish continues to florish but not asmuch as the much larger  Antiochian Parish in the same city.

What has this to do with the discussion?  We're discussing Antiochians and OCAs, not the Greeks (yes, some language has come up, but with respect to Arabic and Slavonic, not Greek).  There are too many people on this board who use any subject thread, no matter how far removed from the subject, to take a swing at the Greeks and the practice of the Orthodox faith.

Why don't you report him to the moderator for off topic comments deriding Greeks and the(ir?) practice of the Orthodox faith? 

Because he's not the only one and I feel it is far better to be reprimanded by a commoner on OC.net rather than to have the heavy hand of a moderator with an itchy trigger finger on the "moderate" button make the call.
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« Reply #58 on: May 18, 2014, 03:36:17 PM »

A couple of years ago my small parish invited an Arabic speaking priest to concelebrate with our priest. The service was as close to possible 50-50. We wanted to honour our Arabic-speaking members and entice some of the Arabic speaking "onlookers" who have never attended to at least pay a visit. Not one single Arabic speaking member of the congregation showed up on that Sunday. Every single one of them stayed away. We will never bother trying that again.
It would be interesting to follow up with them. First, tell them that you are inviting the priest with this in mind. Then if they don't come, act like some companies do and do a feedback survey. Call them up or ask them on Sunday why they didn't come. For example, is it not something that they care at all about? Is it not something that has any appeal to them over a regular service? If not, then what's the point?
Our parish is very small. Having over twenty at DL is a struggle. We have only three or four families that have any sort of Arabic background. Their attendance is irregular, though appreciated when they attend. They seem to head for the larger parishes for Christmas, Easter, etc. I'm quite OK with that. It's disappointing, but I and others who attend faithfully don't hold it against them. They aren't going to change, and except for one family, have all joined the parish (mission) since its inception about 10 years ago, so I suppose we're making some sort of progress. It is true as well that none of them have pressed for more use of Arabic.

Quote
I do know that some parishes with lots of Arab speakers have a significant portion of the service in Arabic.
Unquestionably. As I said, where Arabic serves a useful purpose it should be used.
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« Reply #59 on: May 18, 2014, 05:38:02 PM »

When  first converted we attended the closest parish which was a Greek Parish, when our second priest began to use English as the primary language of the Liturgy many  2nd and 3rd generation adults complained until he told them  that all weekday liturgies would be in Greek. This satisfied them that their Hellenic identity was not being ch alleged. What surprised Father was that whee the weekday Liturgies were held  a few first generation Greek members came, not to hear the Greek but to translate for the many new converts who came to the services, oddly enough they supported the English services on Sundays because they wanted their Children and grandchildren to worship in their new national language, American English. It appears that the 2nd and 3rd Generation did not understand the Greek Language and were just afraid of the parish losing  its Hellenic identity. By The time we left the parish on  job move over half the parish were coverts, all the services were mostly said in English with a few Ektania's in Greek and the Epistle being read phonically in Greek by those 2 and 3rd generation Greeks who did not understand a word of what they were Reading until it was repeated in English.Gospel read in both English and Greek. Everyone seemed happy and the parish continues to florish but not asmuch as the much larger  Antiochian Parish in the same city.

What has this to do with the discussion?  We're discussing Antiochians and OCAs, not the Greeks (yes, some language has come up, but with respect to Arabic and Slavonic, not Greek).  There are too many people on this board who use any subject thread, no matter how far removed from the subject, to take a swing at the Greeks and the practice of the Orthodox faith.

Why don't you report him to the moderator for off topic comments deriding Greeks and the(ir?) practice of the Orthodox faith? 

Because he's not the only one and I feel it is far better to be reprimanded by a commoner on OC.net rather than to have the heavy hand of a moderator with an itchy trigger finger on the "moderate" button make the call.

I guess you didn't get it...
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« Reply #60 on: May 18, 2014, 06:19:02 PM »

When  first converted we attended the closest parish which was a Greek Parish, when our second priest began to use English as the primary language of the Liturgy many  2nd and 3rd generation adults complained until he told them  that all weekday liturgies would be in Greek. This satisfied them that their Hellenic identity was not being ch alleged. What surprised Father was that whee the weekday Liturgies were held  a few first generation Greek members came, not to hear the Greek but to translate for the many new converts who came to the services, oddly enough they supported the English services on Sundays because they wanted their Children and grandchildren to worship in their new national language, American English. It appears that the 2nd and 3rd Generation did not understand the Greek Language and were just afraid of the parish losing  its Hellenic identity. By The time we left the parish on  job move over half the parish were coverts, all the services were mostly said in English with a few Ektania's in Greek and the Epistle being read phonically in Greek by those 2 and 3rd generation Greeks who did not understand a word of what they were Reading until it was repeated in English.Gospel read in both English and Greek. Everyone seemed happy and the parish continues to florish but not asmuch as the much larger  Antiochian Parish in the same city.

What has this to do with the discussion?  We're discussing Antiochians and OCAs, not the Greeks (yes, some language has come up, but with respect to Arabic and Slavonic, not Greek).  There are too many people on this board who use any subject thread, no matter how far removed from the subject, to take a swing at the Greeks and the practice of the Orthodox faith.

Why don't you report him to the moderator for off topic comments deriding Greeks and the(ir?) practice of the Orthodox faith? 

Because he's not the only one and I feel it is far better to be reprimanded by a commoner on OC.net rather than to have the heavy hand of a moderator with an itchy trigger finger on the "moderate" button make the call.

I guess you didn't get it...

Then enlighten me and spare me the condescension.
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« Reply #61 on: May 18, 2014, 06:57:00 PM »

Good gosh, some of you people get way to wound up about innocent things.  The OP is clearly inquiring about how the two different jurisdictions might do some things differently.  No one is looking for a "bash on OCA or Antioch" thread. There is nothing wrong with asking about how other jurisdictions might do things differently.
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« Reply #62 on: May 18, 2014, 08:09:36 PM »

I apologize for my personal comment below:
"When  first converted we attended the closest parish which was a Greek Parish, when our second priest began to use English as the primary language of the Liturgy many  2nd and 3rd generation adults complained until he told them  that all weekday liturgies would be in Greek. This satisfied them that their Hellenic identity was not being ch alleged. What surprised Father was that whee the weekday Liturgies were held  a few first generation Greek members came, not to hear the Greek but to translate for the many new converts who came to the services, oddly enough they supported the English services on Sundays because they wanted their Children and grandchildren to worship in their new national language, American English. It appears that the 2nd and 3rd Generation did not understand the Greek Language and were just afraid of the parish losing  its Hellenic identity. By The time we left the parish on  job move over half the parish were coverts, all the services were mostly said in English with a few Ektania's in Greek and the Epistle being read phonically in Greek by those 2 and 3rd generation Greeks who did not understand a word of what they were Reading until it was repeated in English.Gospel read in both English and Greek. Everyone seemed happy and the parish continues to florish but not asmuch as the much larger  Antiochian Parish in the same city."

I felt my own pwersonal experience drew attention to the fact that all jurisdictions have some level of that language issue in it in some level, not just a difference between the OCA and the Antiochians. I did not mean to sabotage or let the topic be side tracked. I posted as a commentator not as a moderator (please note it was not in green). I am sorry it has led to more off topic discussion than I had expected, I had hoped it  might bring things back to center again. Please forgive me.

Thomas


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« Reply #63 on: May 18, 2014, 09:31:14 PM »

When  first converted we attended the closest parish which was a Greek Parish, when our second priest began to use English as the primary language of the Liturgy many  2nd and 3rd generation adults complained until he told them  that all weekday liturgies would be in Greek. This satisfied them that their Hellenic identity was not being ch alleged. What surprised Father was that whee the weekday Liturgies were held  a few first generation Greek members came, not to hear the Greek but to translate for the many new converts who came to the services, oddly enough they supported the English services on Sundays because they wanted their Children and grandchildren to worship in their new national language, American English. It appears that the 2nd and 3rd Generation did not understand the Greek Language and were just afraid of the parish losing  its Hellenic identity. By The time we left the parish on  job move over half the parish were coverts, all the services were mostly said in English with a few Ektania's in Greek and the Epistle being read phonically in Greek by those 2 and 3rd generation Greeks who did not understand a word of what they were Reading until it was repeated in English.Gospel read in both English and Greek. Everyone seemed happy and the parish continues to florish but not asmuch as the much larger  Antiochian Parish in the same city.

What has this to do with the discussion?  We're discussing Antiochians and OCAs, not the Greeks (yes, some language has come up, but with respect to Arabic and Slavonic, not Greek).  There are too many people on this board who use any subject thread, no matter how far removed from the subject, to take a swing at the Greeks and the practice of the Orthodox faith.

Why don't you report him to the moderator for off topic comments deriding Greeks and the(ir?) practice of the Orthodox faith? 

Because he's not the only one and I feel it is far better to be reprimanded by a commoner on OC.net rather than to have the heavy hand of a moderator with an itchy trigger finger on the "moderate" button make the call.

I guess you didn't get it...

Then enlighten me and spare me the condescension.

Thomas is the moderator of this section. 
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« Reply #64 on: May 18, 2014, 09:45:09 PM »

Thomas, I think your post was the most on-topic and useful post on this page.
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« Reply #65 on: May 18, 2014, 10:24:28 PM »

I apologize for my personal comment below:
"When  first converted we attended the closest parish which was a Greek Parish, when our second priest began to use English as the primary language of the Liturgy many  2nd and 3rd generation adults complained until he told them  that all weekday liturgies would be in Greek. This satisfied them that their Hellenic identity was not being ch alleged. What surprised Father was that whee the weekday Liturgies were held  a few first generation Greek members came, not to hear the Greek but to translate for the many new converts who came to the services, oddly enough they supported the English services on Sundays because they wanted their Children and grandchildren to worship in their new national language, American English. It appears that the 2nd and 3rd Generation did not understand the Greek Language and were just afraid of the parish losing  its Hellenic identity. By The time we left the parish on  job move over half the parish were coverts, all the services were mostly said in English with a few Ektania's in Greek and the Epistle being read phonically in Greek by those 2 and 3rd generation Greeks who did not understand a word of what they were Reading until it was repeated in English.Gospel read in both English and Greek. Everyone seemed happy and the parish continues to florish but not asmuch as the much larger  Antiochian Parish in the same city."

I felt my own pwersonal experience drew attention to the fact that all jurisdictions have some level of that language issue in it in some level, not just a difference between the OCA and the Antiochians. I did not mean to sabotage or let the topic be side tracked. I posted as a commentator not as a moderator (please note it was not in green). I am sorry it has led to more off topic discussion than I had expected, I had hoped it  might bring things back to center again. Please forgive me.

Thomas




No apology necessary.  I see where you were going with this which I failed to originally.  At the same time, I'm troubled about how many subjects have gone off topic so that some may air their own grievances with the GOA.
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« Reply #66 on: May 21, 2014, 12:40:38 PM »

I really do not see any major differences.( My personal opinion is get rid of the organs) My suggestion is, why don't you use a prayer book to follow the services. I do this she nI visit the monastery in Jordanville NY. Most is in Slavonic.
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« Reply #67 on: May 21, 2014, 04:49:39 PM »


No apology necessary.  I see where you were going with this which I failed to originally.  At the same time, I'm troubled about how many subjects have gone off topic so that some may air their own grievances with the GOA everything and anything.

Fixed that for you.  Wink
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« Reply #68 on: May 21, 2014, 04:57:08 PM »


No apology necessary.  I see where you were going with this which I failed to originally.  At the same time, I'm troubled about how many subjects have gone off topic so that some may air their own grievances with the GOA everything and anything.

Fixed that for you.  Wink

Sounds about right. A lot of grievances lately have been Antiochian-related, so I think it's more a flavor-of-the-month sort of think rather than singling out the GOA specifically.
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« Reply #69 on: May 21, 2014, 07:34:58 PM »


No apology necessary.  I see where you were going with this which I failed to originally.  At the same time, I'm troubled about how many subjects have gone off topic so that some may air their own grievances with the GOA everything and anything.

Fixed that for you.  Wink

Denise, you haven't been here for that long so trust me when I say that a great many threads here are hijacked to impugn the Greeks and/or the GO A.
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« Reply #70 on: May 21, 2014, 07:37:57 PM »


No apology necessary.  I see where you were going with this which I failed to originally.  At the same time, I'm troubled about how many subjects have gone off topic so that some may air their own grievances with the GOA everything and anything.

Fixed that for you.  Wink

Denise, you haven't been here for that long so trust me when I say that a great many threads here are hijacked to impugn the Greeks and/or the GO A.

And Russians, and Antiochians, and just about everyone else.  And there are as many that are imagined to be so but are not in reality. 
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« Reply #71 on: May 21, 2014, 07:38:49 PM »


No apology necessary.  I see where you were going with this which I failed to originally.  At the same time, I'm troubled about how many subjects have gone off topic so that some may air their own grievances with the GOA everything and anything.

Fixed that for you.  Wink

Denise, you haven't been here for that long so trust me when I say that a great many threads here are hijacked to impugn the Greeks and/or the GO A.

And just as many about the OCA, and the Antiochians and and and. 

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« Reply #72 on: May 21, 2014, 09:10:40 PM »


No apology necessary.  I see where you were going with this which I failed to originally.  At the same time, I'm troubled about how many subjects have gone off topic so that some may air their own grievances with the GOA everything and anything.

Fixed that for you.  Wink

Denise, you haven't been here for that long so trust me when I say that a great many threads here are hijacked to impugn the Greeks and/or the GO A.
I think that we can all agree that it would be better if we made better use of our hijacking so that we might impugn the godless Coptics.  Wink
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« Reply #73 on: May 22, 2014, 08:13:50 AM »

So off topic, I am closing this topic.
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