OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 22, 2014, 06:05:02 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: OCA vs. Antiochian  (Read 1738 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
RehamG
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Inquirer
Posts: 276



WWW
« on: May 14, 2014, 06:29:54 PM »

Anyone care to highlight some of the differences?
Logged

"A humble man who lives a spiritual life, when he reads the Holy Scriptures, will relate all things to himself and not to others.”

– St. Mark the Ascetic, Sermon, 1.6
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 6,901



« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2014, 06:32:09 PM »

*braces self for onslaught*
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
RehamG
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Inquirer
Posts: 276



WWW
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2014, 06:45:41 PM »

*braces self for onslaught*

 Grin
Logged

"A humble man who lives a spiritual life, when he reads the Holy Scriptures, will relate all things to himself and not to others.”

– St. Mark the Ascetic, Sermon, 1.6
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,397


« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2014, 06:47:27 PM »

Anyone care to highlight some of the differences?

Russian roots vs Lebanese/Syrian which affect liturgics.  That's all that is necessary to know.

Every parish is different.  You can find some OCA parishes that are more "Greek" than Antiochian and vice versa and everything in between.

Next subject please.
Logged
Avdima
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: In search of...
Jurisdiction: none
Posts: 105



« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2014, 06:48:28 PM »

*braces self for onslaught*

I won't be that bad.  Wink
Logged
hecma925
Non-clairvoyant
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 5,924


Pray for me, a sinner.


WWW
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2014, 06:56:56 PM »

Anyone care to highlight some of the differences?

Russian roots vs Lebanese/Syrian which affect liturgics.  That's all that is necessary to know.

Every parish is different.  You can find some OCA parishes that are more "Greek" than Antiochian and vice versa and everything in between.

Next subject please.
Amen.
Logged

Remnkemi
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 121


« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2014, 07:23:11 PM »

Anyone care to highlight some of the differences?

Russian roots vs Lebanese/Syrian which affect liturgics.  That's all that is necessary to know.

Every parish is different.  You can find some OCA parishes that are more "Greek" than Antiochian and vice versa and everything in between.

Next subject please.

I'm not converting but I'm curious. Theoretically speaking, you as an OCA parishioner or an Antiochian parishioner would have no problem switching to the opposite church provided the opposite church speaks relatively the same amount of Greek. Practically speaking, does this happen? Would anyone want this to happen?
Logged
RehamG
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Inquirer
Posts: 276



WWW
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2014, 07:29:44 PM »

Anyone care to highlight some of the differences?

Russian roots vs Lebanese/Syrian which affect liturgics.  That's all that is necessary to know.

Every parish is different.  You can find some OCA parishes that are more "Greek" than Antiochian and vice versa and everything in between.

Next subject please.

I'm not converting but I'm curious. Theoretically speaking, you as an OCA parishioner or an Antiochian parishioner would have no problem switching to the opposite church provided the opposite church speaks relatively the same amount of Greek. Practically speaking, does this happen? Would anyone want this to happen?

I have no idea if it happens. I just asked for my ow personal info., and I mostly wanted to know about the language differences if any. Somehow I assumed (maybe wrongly) that Antiochian used Arabic sometimes.
Logged

"A humble man who lives a spiritual life, when he reads the Holy Scriptures, will relate all things to himself and not to others.”

– St. Mark the Ascetic, Sermon, 1.6
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,027



« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2014, 07:38:17 PM »

Liturgics. That's it. The local Antiochian parish sings Russian four part and Antioch chant.
Mostly Liturgics that the casual observer won't notice the difference.  You'd have to know the services inside and out to notice.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 07:38:58 PM by username! » Logged

username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,027



« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2014, 07:43:36 PM »

Yes the local Antiochian church uses a bit of Greek and arabic.
Oca uses a bit of church slavonic depending on the parish.
There are oca churches that use all slavonic and ones ..Most parishes use english.
Same for the Antiochian churches. Some might use more arabic than others some might use only english.
Each parish is unique regardless of jurisdiction.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 07:44:02 PM by username! » Logged

Kerdy
Moderated
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2014, 07:51:02 PM »

EDIT:

Apologies.  Wrong Thread.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 07:52:22 PM by Kerdy » Logged
hecma925
Non-clairvoyant
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 5,924


Pray for me, a sinner.


WWW
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2014, 08:00:05 PM »

Where I live, the OCA and Antiochian parishes both use English for everything.  Sure, the priests may do a portion here and there in Slavonic or Arabic.  If my only option was an Antiochian parish, I'd happily go.  I once visited an OCA parish that had a resident Russian priest and the parish had DL in Slavonic twice a month.  Either way, English or Slavonic, it was well-attended by immigrants or locals.  I've yet to go to an Antiochian parish where the DL is done with more than 10% Arabic.
Logged

Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 15,176


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2014, 08:06:29 PM »

I've yet to go to an Antiochian parish where the DL is done with more than 10% Arabic.

LOL, I've had the exact opposite experience. 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
hecma925
Non-clairvoyant
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 5,924


Pray for me, a sinner.


WWW
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2014, 08:10:29 PM »

I've yet to go to an Antiochian parish where the DL is done with more than 10% Arabic.

LOL, I've had the exact opposite experience. 

Don't you live in NYC or something?   Tongue I wouldn't expect any other way!  I look forward to going to a full Arabic Liturgy, heck even a full Greek Liturgy.
Logged

Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 15,176


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2014, 09:07:19 PM »

Don't you live in NYC or something?   Tongue I wouldn't expect any other way!  I look forward to going to a full Arabic Liturgy, heck even a full Greek Liturgy.


The full Greek Liturgies in the area are, on the whole, a more aesthetically pleasing experience than the (close to) full Arabic Liturgies in the area.  At least that is my experience.  Maybe I need to get out more. 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
hecma925
Non-clairvoyant
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 5,924


Pray for me, a sinner.


WWW
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2014, 09:09:33 PM »

Don't you live in NYC or something?   Tongue I wouldn't expect any other way!  I look forward to going to a full Arabic Liturgy, heck even a full Greek Liturgy.


The full Greek Liturgies in the area are, on the whole, a more aesthetically pleasing experience than the (close to) full Arabic Liturgies in the area.  At least that is my experience.  Maybe I need to get out more. 
Pleasing in what way?
Logged

Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 15,176


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2014, 09:18:38 PM »

The full Greek Liturgies in the area are, on the whole, a more aesthetically pleasing experience than the (close to) full Arabic Liturgies in the area.  At least that is my experience.  Maybe I need to get out more. 
Pleasing in what way?

Both are beautiful languages.  Presuming Byzantine chant for both, I have a slight preference for Arabic, even though I understand much less of it...it sounds more pleasing to my ears.  But the Arabic chanters I've heard are not as good as the Greek chanters (I'm not including priests in this comparison), and I prefer beautifully sung Greek to not as beautifully sung Arabic.   
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,495



« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2014, 09:26:54 PM »

Liturgics. That's it. The local Antiochian parish sings Russian four part and Antioch chant.
Mostly Liturgics that the casual observer won't notice the difference.  You'd have to know the services inside and out to notice.

The main difference is in the first part of the Divine Liturgy. The Antiochian practice (in line with the Greek reforms of the late 19th Century) is to use the festal antiphons during ordinary Sundays.
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,495



« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2014, 09:35:26 PM »

The full Greek Liturgies in the area are, on the whole, a more aesthetically pleasing experience than the (close to) full Arabic Liturgies in the area.  At least that is my experience.  Maybe I need to get out more.  
Pleasing in what way?

Both are beautiful languages.  Presuming Byzantine chant for both, I have a slight preference for Arabic, even though I understand much less of it...it sounds more pleasing to my ears.  But the Arabic chanters I've heard are not as good as the Greek chanters (I'm not including priests in this comparison), and I prefer beautifully sung Greek to not as beautifully sung Arabic.    

Perhaps I am prejudiced, but I think that the Bulgarian adaptation of the Byzantine chant is most pleasing to my ear. Check out this  video of Patriarch Neofit, who is chanting "The Angel Cried..." in Church Slavonic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxvqhkTf-Eo
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 09:36:27 PM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) » Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,027



« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2014, 09:36:22 PM »

Okay let's go even deeper..The prayer of the 3rd hour during the epeclesis is a Slavic practice.
Logged

scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek by desire; Antiochian by necessity
Posts: 5,786



« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2014, 09:48:47 PM »

The full Greek Liturgies in the area are, on the whole, a more aesthetically pleasing experience than the (close to) full Arabic Liturgies in the area.  At least that is my experience.  Maybe I need to get out more. 
Pleasing in what way?

Both are beautiful languages.  Presuming Byzantine chant for both, I have a slight preference for Arabic, even though I understand much less of it...it sounds more pleasing to my ears.  But the Arabic chanters I've heard are not as good as the Greek chanters (I'm not including priests in this comparison), and I prefer beautifully sung Greek to not as beautifully sung Arabic.   

+1.

THe only Arab chanters we have in my church can only read Arabic phonetically.  I once was told by a native Lebanese who was visiting that our "arab" chanters routinely ruin their beautiful language. Chanting bad Arabic just adds insult to injury.
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
hecma925
Non-clairvoyant
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 5,924


Pray for me, a sinner.


WWW
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2014, 09:55:38 PM »

Perhaps I am prejudiced, but I think that the Bulgarian adaptation of the Byzantine chant is most pleasing to my ear. Check out this  video of Patriarch Neofit, who is chanting "The Angel Cried..." in Church Slavonic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxvqhkTf-Eo


A beautiful prejudice....thank you for sharing that.
Logged

hecma925
Non-clairvoyant
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 5,924


Pray for me, a sinner.


WWW
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2014, 09:56:33 PM »

The full Greek Liturgies in the area are, on the whole, a more aesthetically pleasing experience than the (close to) full Arabic Liturgies in the area.  At least that is my experience.  Maybe I need to get out more. 
Pleasing in what way?

Both are beautiful languages.  Presuming Byzantine chant for both, I have a slight preference for Arabic, even though I understand much less of it...it sounds more pleasing to my ears.  But the Arabic chanters I've heard are not as good as the Greek chanters (I'm not including priests in this comparison), and I prefer beautifully sung Greek to not as beautifully sung Arabic.   

Then again, isn't beautifully-sung anything better? Wink
Logged

ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2014, 09:57:48 PM »

Perhaps I am prejudiced, but I think that the Bulgarian adaptation of the Byzantine chant is most pleasing to my ear. Check out this  video of Patriarch Neofit, who is chanting "The Angel Cried..." in Church Slavonic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxvqhkTf-Eo


A beautiful prejudice....thank you for sharing that.
+1
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,964


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2014, 09:57:59 PM »

Anyone care to highlight some of the differences?

Russian roots vs Lebanese/Syrian which affect liturgics.  That's all that is necessary to know.

Every parish is different.  You can find some OCA parishes that are more "Greek" than Antiochian and vice versa and everything in between.

Next subject please.

I'm not converting but I'm curious. Theoretically speaking, you as an OCA parishioner or an Antiochian parishioner would have no problem switching to the opposite church provided the opposite church speaks relatively the same amount of Greek. Practically speaking, does this happen? Would anyone want this to happen?

Speaking Greek really has nothing to do with it. People move from OCA to Antiochian to Greek to Russian o whatever parishes all the time with no problem. The faith is the same. The sacraments are the same.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 15,176


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2014, 09:58:24 PM »

Perhaps I am prejudiced, but I think that the Bulgarian adaptation of the Byzantine chant is most pleasing to my ear. Check out this  video of Patriarch Neofit, who is chanting "The Angel Cried..." in Church Slavonic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxvqhkTf-Eo


That's quite beautiful, but I'm not sufficiently familiar with the ins and outs of Byzantine chant to really tell the difference between regional adaptations (I've heard Byzantine chant in person in Greek, Arabic, English, and Romanian).  Do you have any other Bulgarian recommendations?  
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Antonis
Prodigal
High Elder
******
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 977


"My Lord and my God!"


« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2014, 10:01:28 PM »

The full Greek Liturgies in the area are, on the whole, a more aesthetically pleasing experience than the (close to) full Arabic Liturgies in the area.  At least that is my experience.  Maybe I need to get out more.  
Pleasing in what way?

Both are beautiful languages.  Presuming Byzantine chant for both, I have a slight preference for Arabic, even though I understand much less of it...it sounds more pleasing to my ears.  But the Arabic chanters I've heard are not as good as the Greek chanters (I'm not including priests in this comparison), and I prefer beautifully sung Greek to not as beautifully sung Arabic.    

Perhaps I am prejudiced, but I think that the Bulgarian adaptation of the Byzantine chant is most pleasing to my ear. Check out this  video of Patriarch Neofit, who is chanting "The Angel Cried..." in Church Slavonic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxvqhkTf-Eo

I've always loved Bulgarian adaptations of Byzantine chant. There was a Bulgarian recording on youtube that I particularly liked of "Receive the Body of Christ," but I can no longer find it.  Sad
Logged

For peace in the whole world,
for the stability of the holy churches of God,
and for the unity of all,
let us pray to the Lord.
LBK
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,144


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2014, 12:09:20 AM »


Both are beautiful languages.  Presuming Byzantine chant for both, I have a slight preference for Arabic, even though I understand much less of it...it sounds more pleasing to my ears.  But the Arabic chanters I've heard are not as good as the Greek chanters (I'm not including priests in this comparison), and I prefer beautifully sung Greek to not as beautifully sung Arabic.   

Byzantine chant is a very, very stern mistress. When it's good, it's heavenly. When it's even slightly not good, it's ghastly.
Logged
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,172


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2014, 08:12:14 AM »


Both are beautiful languages.  Presuming Byzantine chant for both, I have a slight preference for Arabic, even though I understand much less of it...it sounds more pleasing to my ears.  But the Arabic chanters I've heard are not as good as the Greek chanters (I'm not including priests in this comparison), and I prefer beautifully sung Greek to not as beautifully sung Arabic.   

Byzantine chant is a very, very stern mistress. When it's good, it's heavenly. When it's even slightly not good, it's ghastly.


PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,495



« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2014, 10:27:27 AM »

Perhaps I am prejudiced, but I think that the Bulgarian adaptation of the Byzantine chant is most pleasing to my ear. Check out this  video of Patriarch Neofit, who is chanting "The Angel Cried..." in Church Slavonic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxvqhkTf-Eo


That's quite beautiful, but I'm not sufficiently familiar with the ins and outs of Byzantine chant to really tell the difference between regional adaptations (I've heard Byzantine chant in person in Greek, Arabic, English, and Romanian).  Do you have any other Bulgarian recommendations?  

Sure. Please note the tendency to veer off ever so slightly toward the western ear and musical sensibilities. I am also including some Serbian chanting that is equally beautiful (and sung by a very talented artist, Divna Ljubojević).

Serbian: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFBCGhb4yu8
Bulgarian: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcNgfDsPrnw

Some more from Patriarch Neofit (who sounds like my late father, the best chanter I ever heard).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYx5DiBr9KE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hBwc1BBtv0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EYVw7zHUrM
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Maximum Bob
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catechumen
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,348


Personal Text? We can have personal text?


« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2014, 09:26:47 PM »

Our parish has two priests most Sundays being an Anitochian church the parish priest is Antiochian, of course, but his backup most Sundays and sub when he's not there is OCA. We do 99% of the service in English but when we go multilingual we do Greek, Slavonic, Arabic, and sometimes Spanish. We use Byzantine music and Russian four part music, too. So yes there are the differences in details that have been mentioned above, but more similarity than difference I would think. But maybe that just us.
Logged

Prov. 3: 5-6 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths.
Psalm 37:23 The Lord guides a man safely in the way he should go.
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,027



« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2014, 09:42:48 PM »

There are tons of small differences like I said. Most are not anything the laity are going to recognize or hear.
Stated here so far;
The antiphons are different
No 3rd hour prayer during the epeclesis in the Antiochian church( you wouldn't hear this anyway from the pews)
Style of chanting during the "propers" is antiochian style byzantine chant where as the OCA usually uses Obikhod.
Logged

isaelie
Warned
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 140



« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2014, 10:20:11 PM »

fish n chips  police
Logged
frjohnmorris
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 1,173


« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2014, 01:00:54 AM »

The full Greek Liturgies in the area are, on the whole, a more aesthetically pleasing experience than the (close to) full Arabic Liturgies in the area.  At least that is my experience.  Maybe I need to get out more. 
Pleasing in what way?

Both are beautiful languages.  Presuming Byzantine chant for both, I have a slight preference for Arabic, even though I understand much less of it...it sounds more pleasing to my ears.  But the Arabic chanters I've heard are not as good as the Greek chanters (I'm not including priests in this comparison), and I prefer beautifully sung Greek to not as beautifully sung Arabic.   

+1.

THe only Arab chanters we have in my church can only read Arabic phonetically.  I once was told by a native Lebanese who was visiting that our "arab" chanters routinely ruin their beautiful language. Chanting bad Arabic just adds insult to injury.

One of my brother Priests who is also a non-Arab, but shall remain unnamed told that once Metropolitan Philip visited his parish. During the Matins, he noticed that His Eminence was getting more and more agitated. Finally, he said to the Priest, do you know what they are saying, they are mispronouncing the words and are cussing.
In my parish, which uses all English, we have a display case of items from the history of our parish which was founded in 1906. There is an old Arabic service book in the case. One Sunday, a traveler from Lebanon visited our parish. He called me to the side and told me that the book is upside down.

Fr. John W. Morris.
 
« Last Edit: May 17, 2014, 01:07:17 AM by frjohnmorris » Logged
frjohnmorris
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 1,173


« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2014, 01:04:34 AM »

Don't you live in NYC or something?   Tongue I wouldn't expect any other way!  I look forward to going to a full Arabic Liturgy, heck even a full Greek Liturgy.


The full Greek Liturgies in the area are, on the whole, a more aesthetically pleasing experience than the (close to) full Arabic Liturgies in the area.  At least that is my experience.  Maybe I need to get out more. 

I have been an Antiochian Priest for over 34 years and have yet to attend a Divine Liturgy completely or even mostly in Arabic.

Fr. John W. Morris.
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 15,176


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2014, 01:05:15 AM »

During the Matins, he noticed that His Eminence was getting more and more agitated. Finally, he said to the Priest, do you know what they are saying, they are mispronouncing the words and are cussing.

I love when that happens.  I've heard it.  I may have even done it once or twice.  Tongue
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 7,761


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2014, 01:59:25 AM »

During the Matins, he noticed that His Eminence was getting more and more agitated. Finally, he said to the Priest, do you know what they are saying, they are mispronouncing the words and are cussing.

I love when that happens.  I've heard it.  I may have even done it once or twice.  Tongue

Oh there is the incident where the new priest only slightly mispronounces an arabic word:

So, this one priest was trying to say: "Lord bless the people," but he actually said: "Lord bless the horses."
From what I heard of this event, there was not a dry eye in that Cathedral.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2014, 02:43:26 AM »

The full Greek Liturgies in the area are, on the whole, a more aesthetically pleasing experience than the (close to) full Arabic Liturgies in the area.  At least that is my experience.  Maybe I need to get out more. 
Pleasing in what way?

Both are beautiful languages.  Presuming Byzantine chant for both, I have a slight preference for Arabic, even though I understand much less of it...it sounds more pleasing to my ears.  But the Arabic chanters I've heard are not as good as the Greek chanters (I'm not including priests in this comparison), and I prefer beautifully sung Greek to not as beautifully sung Arabic.   

+1.

THe only Arab chanters we have in my church can only read Arabic phonetically.  I once was told by a native Lebanese who was visiting that our "arab" chanters routinely ruin their beautiful language. Chanting bad Arabic just adds insult to injury.

One of my brother Priests who is also a non-Arab, but shall remain unnamed told that once Metropolitan Philip visited his parish. During the Matins, he noticed that His Eminence was getting more and more agitated. Finally, he said to the Priest, do you know what they are saying, they are mispronouncing the words and are cussing.
In my parish, which uses all English, we have a display case of items from the history of our parish which was founded in 1906. There is an old Arabic service book in the case. One Sunday, a traveler from Lebanon visited our parish. He called me to the side and told me that the book is upside down.

Fr. John W. Morris.
 
Could be worse: I was at a Romanian Church in the US that had a cloth covering a table had the Muslim creed written along the border.
There was a PhD dissertation at my Alma Mater that studied Renaissance paintings that had the Madonna wearing robes that had Muslim formulae written on them.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Auntie Oak
Posts: 4,023



« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2014, 03:06:59 AM »

Renaissance paintings that had the Madonna wearing robes that had Muslim formulae written on them.

I've heard of this, only I believe it even goes way further back than the Renaissance. Something like medieval Muslim artisans making icons/paintings/etc. to sell to pilgrims going to the Holy Land - only they were interwoven with finely subtle Islamic calligraphy unbeknownst to the ignorant pilgrim. I believe it came up in a graduate course my father had taken on a related subject... I'll have to ask him about it again sometime.
Logged

Liberalochian: Unionist-Ecumenism Lite™
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 7,761


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2014, 03:11:37 AM »

Renaissance paintings that had the Madonna wearing robes that had Muslim formulae written on them.

I've heard of this, only I believe it even goes way further back than the Renaissance. Something like medieval Muslim artisans making icons/paintings/etc. to sell to pilgrims going to the Holy Land - only they were interwoven with finely subtle Islamic calligraphy unbeknownst to the ignorant pilgrim. I believe it came up in a graduate course my father had taken on a related subject... I'll have to ask him about it again sometime.

Good to know before buying anything on eBay.

Note: I have not yet purchased anything from eBay.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Auntie Oak
Posts: 4,023



« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2014, 03:31:28 AM »

Good to know before buying anything on eBay.

Note: I have not yet purchased anything from eBay.

I'd say buying icons on Ebay is fine. Most of it it either comes from Eastern Europe or Greece, and there isn't much on there from the Middle East, other than perhaps the occasional "Holy Land Starter Souvenir Kit" with dirt, water, and a crucifix or an icon. I doubt those come from Muslims though, and even if they did I don't imagine they're secretly inscribing Islamic stuff anywhere. I'm pretty sure the practice disappeared a long time ago.
Logged

Liberalochian: Unionist-Ecumenism Lite™
JGHunter
Settling dust
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Struggling Orthodox
Posts: 287



« Reply #41 on: May 17, 2014, 07:19:09 AM »

OP there is no versus. Please don't pretend churches in communion are in some sort of fight.
Logged

Lord Deliver Us.
dknajjar
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 14


« Reply #42 on: May 17, 2014, 08:28:54 AM »

Don't you live in NYC or something?   Tongue I wouldn't expect any other way!  I look forward to going to a full Arabic Liturgy, heck even a full Greek Liturgy.


The full Greek Liturgies in the area are, on the whole, a more aesthetically pleasing experience than the (close to) full Arabic Liturgies in the area.  At least that is my experience.  Maybe I need to get out more. 

I have been an Antiochian Priest for over 34 years and have yet to attend a Divine Liturgy completely or even mostly in Arabic.

Fr. John W. Morris.

The Antiochian parish in Indianapolis, St. George, conducts Divine Liturgies in Arabic once per month. My father does the chanting, and I'd put him in the top 1% of Arabic chanters, at least in the US. And yes, I'll acknowledge my bias.
Logged
podkarpatska
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,014


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #43 on: May 17, 2014, 10:42:36 AM »

OP there is no versus. Please don't pretend churches in communion are in some sort of fight.

Well said. The question speaks more to Western legalism than to an Orthodox heart.
Logged
genesisone
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,453



« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2014, 12:12:22 PM »


I have been an Antiochian Priest for over 34 years and have yet to attend a Divine Liturgy completely or even mostly in Arabic.

Fr. John W. Morris.

A couple of years ago my small parish invited an Arabic speaking priest to concelebrate with our priest. The service was as close to possible 50-50. We wanted to honour our Arabic-speaking members and entice some of the Arabic speaking "onlookers" who have never attended to at least pay a visit. Not one single Arabic speaking member of the congregation showed up on that Sunday. Every single one of them stayed away. We will never bother trying that again.

That said, I'm not opposed to the use of Arabic (or other heritage language) where it serves a useful purpose.
Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.158 seconds with 71 queries.