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Urban_Monk
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« on: May 14, 2014, 12:28:45 AM »

I'm trying to figure out what is and is not considered "real" orthodox parishes in my area.
I read this " The OCA's autocephaly is not currently recognized by most of the other autocephalous Orthodox churches."
Not sure what that means... are OCA parishes okay or not ? Thanks!

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« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2014, 12:43:43 AM »

I'm trying to figure out what is and is not considered "real" orthodox parishes in my area.
I read this " The OCA's autocephaly is not currently recognized by most of the other autocephalous Orthodox churches."
Not sure what that means... are OCA parishes okay or not ? Thanks!

OCA parishes are okay. I currently attend one, as do many other posters on this board. They are in communion with all other Eastern Orthodox Churches - it's just their ecclesiastical status that's in question (i.e. their autocephaly status is rejected by others who still nonetheless affirm their Orthodoxy).
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Basil 320
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« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2014, 01:10:56 AM »

My experience with the numerous OCA parishes in my area is exceptional, they are bastions of holiness. The Pan-Orthodox community is active in this area. We have, and have had, excellent clergy serving in our OCA parishes. We've been blessed with a fine and blessed OCA hierarchy of its Midwest Diocese, as well, Archbishop Job, Bishop Boris, and Archbishop John (Garklavs).

The Orthodox Church in America is not recognized as an "autocephalous" church by the Ecumenical Patriarchate and most of the other of the Holy Orthodox Churches that were not under the direct influence of the Patriarchate of Moscow, but communal relations, the canonicity of the church, is not by any means in question. It is recognized as a "self-governed" church, but not as a sister among the Holy Orthodox Churches. The dispute is an administrative one, thankfully not affecting spirituality. (The dispute has to due primarily with the Patriarch of Moscow's unilateral issuance of a Tomos (Proclamation) of Autocephaly, rather than autocephaly havening emerged from a conciliar process among the Holy Orthodox Churches with Eparchies in North America, working together.) The OCA's seminaries are well respected, likewise. The OCA is a valued contributing participant in the Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of the U.S.A.

You can confirm the canonicity of any parish in the U.S.A. through the website of the Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of the U.S.A., "assemblyofbishops.org".
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 01:21:01 AM by Basil 320 » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2014, 03:05:56 AM »

OCA = OrthodoxChurchinAmerica
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« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2014, 08:57:08 AM »

I'm trying to figure out what is and is not considered "real" orthodox parishes in my area.
I read this " The OCA's autocephaly is not currently recognized by most of the other autocephalous Orthodox churches."
Not sure what that means... are OCA parishes okay or not ? Thanks!


The statement means their autocephaly status is not recognized, but their legitimacy is recognized.  They are in full communion with the rest of the canonical Church. Autocephaly is just an indicator of whether they are subject to an external patriarch or not.
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« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2014, 09:40:34 AM »

I'm trying to figure out what is and is not considered "real" orthodox parishes in my area.
I read this " The OCA's autocephaly is not currently recognized by most of the other autocephalous Orthodox churches."
Not sure what that means... are OCA parishes okay or not ? Thanks!
If it is on this list (and all the OCA parishes are), it is a real Orthodox parish.
http://www.assemblyofbishops.org/directories/parishes
Btw, a plurality of the autocephalous Churches recognize the autocephaly of the OCA, including the Patriarchate of Moscow, under whom those who deny the OCA's autocephaly place it, trying to keep it a little pregnant ad infinitum.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 09:40:55 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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Urban_Monk
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« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2014, 01:42:43 PM »

I'm trying to figure out what is and is not considered "real" orthodox parishes in my area.
I read this " The OCA's autocephaly is not currently recognized by most of the other autocephalous Orthodox churches."
Not sure what that means... are OCA parishes okay or not ? Thanks!
If it is on this list (and all the OCA parishes are), it is a real Orthodox parish.
http://www.assemblyofbishops.org/directories/parishes
Btw, a plurality of the autocephalous Churches recognize the autocephaly of the OCA, including the Patriarchate of Moscow, under whom those who deny the OCA's autocephaly place it, trying to keep it a little pregnant ad infinitum.

Well according to this the closest one to me is an Antiochian Western rite parish... ( ? )  I thought Orthodox was 'eastern'... now I'm really confused.
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« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2014, 01:49:44 PM »

I'm trying to figure out what is and is not considered "real" orthodox parishes in my area.
I read this " The OCA's autocephaly is not currently recognized by most of the other autocephalous Orthodox churches."
Not sure what that means... are OCA parishes okay or not ? Thanks!



It's as Nephi says. It's not their legitimacy that's not recognized, but their autonomy.

I'm trying to figure out what is and is not considered "real" orthodox parishes in my area.
I read this " The OCA's autocephaly is not currently recognized by most of the other autocephalous Orthodox churches."
Not sure what that means... are OCA parishes okay or not ? Thanks!
If it is on this list (and all the OCA parishes are), it is a real Orthodox parish.
http://www.assemblyofbishops.org/directories/parishes
Btw, a plurality of the autocephalous Churches recognize the autocephaly of the OCA, including the Patriarchate of Moscow, under whom those who deny the OCA's autocephaly place it, trying to keep it a little pregnant ad infinitum.

Well according to this the closest one to me is an Antiochian Western rite parish... ( ? )  I thought Orthodox was 'eastern'... now I'm really confused.

It wasn't "Eastern" before 1054. Western Rite Churches are a modern rite that certain Russian and Antiochian groups have adopted. It's legitimate, though some Byzantino-philes have a problem with it.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 01:50:00 PM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2014, 01:51:16 PM »

I'm trying to figure out what is and is not considered "real" orthodox parishes in my area.
I read this " The OCA's autocephaly is not currently recognized by most of the other autocephalous Orthodox churches."
Not sure what that means... are OCA parishes okay or not ? Thanks!
If it is on this list (and all the OCA parishes are), it is a real Orthodox parish.
http://www.assemblyofbishops.org/directories/parishes
They are missing the OCA church in Gradyville, PA, I think.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 01:51:33 PM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2014, 01:52:22 PM »

The 'west' and 'east' things are just labels to help distinguish things, and aren't part of some deeper truth. Orthodoxy considers itself catholic: whole, entire and universal. Attaching 'eastern' to things is often just a way of distinguishing from Roman/Latin Catholics and Protestants in 'the west.' Now for the Orthodox to use 'west' about themselves is to distinguish between internal things. Of course from the POV of someone in India we might all be thought of as 'west.' It's just language is all. Smiley
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 01:54:21 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2014, 01:53:32 PM »

Well according to this the closest one to me is an Antiochian Western rite parish... ( ? )  I thought Orthodox was 'eastern'... now I'm really confused.
It's the flip side of how Catholicism is "western" but has Eastern Catholic Churches.
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« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2014, 01:54:07 PM »

I'm trying to figure out what is and is not considered "real" orthodox parishes in my area.
I read this " The OCA's autocephaly is not currently recognized by most of the other autocephalous Orthodox churches."
Not sure what that means... are OCA parishes okay or not ? Thanks!
If it is on this list (and all the OCA parishes are), it is a real Orthodox parish.
http://www.assemblyofbishops.org/directories/parishes
Btw, a plurality of the autocephalous Churches recognize the autocephaly of the OCA, including the Patriarchate of Moscow, under whom those who deny the OCA's autocephaly place it, trying to keep it a little pregnant ad infinitum.

Well according to this the closest one to me is an Antiochian Western rite parish... ( ? )  I thought Orthodox was 'eastern'... now I'm really confused.

I would just go to the OCA parish to really get an understanding of Orthodox worship, theology, and practice.  You can always visit the WR if you'd like, obviously, but for inquirer it would only be beneficial to see the Divine Liturgy, IMO.
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« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2014, 01:55:36 PM »

I would just go to the OCA parish to really get an understanding of Orthodox worship, theology, and practice.  You can always visit the WR if you'd like, obviously, but for inquirer it would only be beneficial to see the Divine Liturgy, IMO.
I actually disagree because I think it does not matter, according to Orthodox thinking. I say this as someone who belongs to the OCA myself.

If the person wants to see how most Orthodox Christians worship and their culture, the OCA is better. If he wants to see Orthodox Christianity, it does not matter.

Orthodoxy is separated from Catholicism typically not by ritual, but by theology and principles.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 01:58:17 PM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2014, 02:06:16 PM »

Alternatively, being Catholic (I assume Latin Rite) a Western-Rite parish may feel a lot more familiar in terms of worship style, assuming he does wish to become Orthodox. The church and its beliefs are one and the same, though - in terms of west and east it's more a matter of expression and form. 
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« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2014, 02:30:57 PM »

I would just go to the OCA parish to really get an understanding of Orthodox worship, theology, and practice.  You can always visit the WR if you'd like, obviously, but for inquirer it would only be beneficial to see the Divine Liturgy, IMO.

I completely disagree. The OP can go to  WR service just the same as an ER one.
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« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2014, 03:12:17 PM »

I would just go to the OCA parish to really get an understanding of Orthodox worship, theology, and practice.  You can always visit the WR if you'd like, obviously, but for inquirer it would only be beneficial to see the Divine Liturgy, IMO.

I completely disagree. The OP can go to  WR service just the same as an ER one.

I agree.  And it it's the closest one, that's a bonus.
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« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2014, 03:47:34 PM »

Is the 'Self Ruled Antiochian Orthodox christian archdiocese of North America' okay ?
sry, I know this is a lot of questions
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« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2014, 03:50:28 PM »

Is the 'Self Ruled Antiochian Orthodox christian archdiocese of North America' okay ?
sry, I know this is a lot of questions

Yes.  As long as they are on this site:

www.assemblyofbishops.org

They are entirely within the Eastern Orthodox Church in the United States. 
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« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2014, 03:51:16 PM »

Is the 'Self Ruled Antiochian Orthodox christian archdiocese of North America' okay ?
sry, I know this is a lot of questions
Yes, we are in communion with the rest of the canonical Church.  Our Metropolitan recently reposed, but when the next one is appointed, it will be with the blessing of Patriarch John X.
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« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2014, 04:14:30 PM »

Which is why I said he could obviously go to the WR if the OP wanted.  I suggested seeing a Divine Liturgy only because that's the vast majority of Orthodoxy with the WR taking a very small part.  The OP should do what they want but to say it doesn't matter is naive. The theology is the same but the expression IS very different which is why, again, I said the OP should see a Divine Liturgy.

I would just go to the OCA parish to really get an understanding of Orthodox worship, theology, and practice.  You can always visit the WR if you'd like, obviously, but for inquirer it would only be beneficial to see the Divine Liturgy, IMO.

I completely disagree. The OP can go to  WR service just the same as an ER one.

I agree.  And it it's the closest one, that's a bonus.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 04:15:43 PM by Hamartolos » Logged

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« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2014, 06:00:04 PM »

Which is why I said he could obviously go to the WR if the OP wanted.  I suggested seeing a Divine Liturgy only because that's the vast majority of Orthodoxy with the WR taking a very small part.  The OP should do what they want but to say it doesn't matter is naive. The theology is the same but the expression IS very different which is why, again, I said the OP should see a Divine Liturgy.

You originally said it would only be beneficial to see a DL, but even so IIRC there's at least one WR Orthodox here on OCnet that hasn't been to an ER church and they seem just fine.
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« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2014, 09:55:05 PM »

From our perspective Orthodoxy means all the canonical Patriarchates, which includes Rome. Rome is in schism but there are Western Rite parishes that still follow Orthodoxy.

St. Ambrose might have had been in a "western" liturgy most often, but he is still part of Orthodoxy.

I don't see the Western Rite as inferior to the Eastern Rite. Since a big majority of Orthodox are Eastern Rite, it is worth visiting an Eastern parish to get a better sense of the "world" of Orthodoxy as it is in reality.

But this can all cut different ways. A person really likes the high Anglican or Catholic mass could be directed to go to the Eastern Liturgy first, and then come away thinking it's nice, but it's strange too and the culture is so different, so it reinforces a preference to stay Anglican. Alternately, he could be impressed by Eastern services and decide he wants to become Orthodox for that reason. In reality though, from an Orthodox viewpoint it is not the service style that should determine what a person should be ideally, but the theology. What matters is if the person accepts Orthodox theology. This is why I say that it ultimately doesn't matter whether he goes to a western or eastern rite service.
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« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2014, 10:32:56 PM »


I would just go to the OCA parish to really get an understanding of Orthodox worship, theology, and practice.  You can always visit the WR if you'd like, obviously, but for inquirer it would only be beneficial to see the Divine Liturgy, IMO.


You originally said it would only be beneficial to see a DL, but even so IIRC there's at least one WR Orthodox here on OCnet that hasn't been to an ER church and they seem just fine.

I had to do the work for you, Nephi.  Next time, please scroll up.  "Only beneficial" meaning it would only help an inquirer into Orthodoxy.  However, I'm pretty sure you already knew this when you decided to 'disagree' and make this about semantics.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 10:35:48 PM by Hamartolos » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2014, 06:10:46 PM »

I'm trying to figure out what is and is not considered "real" orthodox parishes in my area.
I read this " The OCA's autocephaly is not currently recognized by most of the other autocephalous Orthodox churches."
Not sure what that means... are OCA parishes okay or not ? Thanks!
If it is on this list (and all the OCA parishes are), it is a real Orthodox parish.
http://www.assemblyofbishops.org/directories/parishes
Btw, a plurality of the autocephalous Churches recognize the autocephaly of the OCA, including the Patriarchate of Moscow, under whom those who deny the OCA's autocephaly place it, trying to keep it a little pregnant ad infinitum.

Well according to this the closest one to me is an Antiochian Western rite parish... ( ? )  I thought Orthodox was 'eastern'... now I'm really confused.

There are Western Rite Orthodox parishes under Antioch and under the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia. That means that they are fully Orthodox and fully canonical. However, there are Western Rite groups claiming to be Orthodox who are not. Therefore, one must be careful and only attend a canonical Western Rite parish under Antioch or under ROCOR.

Fr. John W. Morris.
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