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Author Topic: Women and the Epistle  (Read 1738 times) Average Rating: 0
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Adela
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« Reply #45 on: May 14, 2014, 11:18:43 AM »

Before people start going all around in circles with the 'this is never acceptable anywhere ever ever' nonsense....might want to keep in mind that there are indeed places where having young women read the epistle is a tradition.

see below for just -two- of the many links I could have given you.

http://www.serborth.org/02182014.html

http://www.easterndiocese.org/news_140326_1.html
His Grace Bishop Dr.MITROPHAN said it was good to see teachers at the Deanery meetings. His Grace encouraged involving the boys as altar servers and girls to read the Epistle. His Grace said to teach and to live what is taught.

and frankly...I will vote that you all are nuts and overreaching then I will him....any darn day of the week.


Because honestly....you all tell prospective converts that you cannot make Orthodoxy into what -you personally- want...

and then you spend quite a large percentage of your time arguing and doing just that.....find someplace that agrees with you and break away....

Now, why'd you go and ruin it for all the Serbian Orthodox folk? Angry Grin

Now that the cat's out of the bag, I must say I really like the Serbian church I am currently attending. 
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« Reply #46 on: May 14, 2014, 11:23:00 AM »

It's not about saying that women have no role in the church, but having the right understanding of what that role is. From my experience in traditionalist Orthodox churches, that role includes all sorts of stuff, such as baking prosphora, artos and fanouropita and cooking koliva, preparing flowers and decorations, cleaning the church and vestments, cooking agape meals, teaching Sunday school and Greek school to the children and much else. This is all necessary work and the church would not be able to function without them. Sure, these are humble and background roles: the women don't get to stand up in front of everyone and read the epistle and otherwise advertise their presence, and I can certainly see why some women would think they "deserve" more than the traditional roles. But then that gets us to the nub of the problem, which is pride, which is the antithesis of what Orthodoxy is about.

I also get the impression at the traditional churches I've been to that both men and women are content with the roles assigned to them. What makes it work is love we show each other and the respect we give to each of our duties, however humble or exalted.

I am leaving your whole quote...but honestly the part in orange is PURE speculation on your part.  Unless as has been suggested of others, you are also a mind reader and can thus understand the motivation of others........




Only you know the answer, but I honestly believe this is the underlying motivation for all the talk of "inclusiveness" and the apportioning of male roles in the church to females without necessity. If it weren't for pride, we would be content to accept the roles given to us by tradition as it's been handed down to us.


And my links above showed you that it is a tradition in various places....to have young women read the epistle....the quote was from a Bishop....not a woman demanding some right.  

Let me repeat it in case you didn't bother to read it...in your haste to decide what motivation people other than yourself have.


'His Grace Bishop Dr.MITROPHAN said it was good to see teachers at the Deanery meetings. His Grace encouraged involving the boys as altar servers and girls to read the Epistle. His Grace said to teach and to live what is taught.


That is not a woman...that is a Bishop.

Get off your high horse of thinking you know -what- motivation drives people other than yourself.  


Of course, in your mind, he isn't even the Church....so this is a rather pointless discussion.....


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Jonathan Gress
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« Reply #47 on: May 14, 2014, 11:55:11 AM »

It's not about saying that women have no role in the church, but having the right understanding of what that role is. From my experience in traditionalist Orthodox churches, that role includes all sorts of stuff, such as baking prosphora, artos and fanouropita and cooking koliva, preparing flowers and decorations, cleaning the church and vestments, cooking agape meals, teaching Sunday school and Greek school to the children and much else. This is all necessary work and the church would not be able to function without them. Sure, these are humble and background roles: the women don't get to stand up in front of everyone and read the epistle and otherwise advertise their presence, and I can certainly see why some women would think they "deserve" more than the traditional roles. But then that gets us to the nub of the problem, which is pride, which is the antithesis of what Orthodoxy is about.

I also get the impression at the traditional churches I've been to that both men and women are content with the roles assigned to them. What makes it work is love we show each other and the respect we give to each of our duties, however humble or exalted.

I am leaving your whole quote...but honestly the part in orange is PURE speculation on your part.  Unless as has been suggested of others, you are also a mind reader and can thus understand the motivation of others........




Only you know the answer, but I honestly believe this is the underlying motivation for all the talk of "inclusiveness" and the apportioning of male roles in the church to females without necessity. If it weren't for pride, we would be content to accept the roles given to us by tradition as it's been handed down to us.


And my links above showed you that it is a tradition in various places....to have young women read the epistle....the quote was from a Bishop....not a woman demanding some right.  

Let me repeat it in case you didn't bother to read it...in your haste to decide what motivation people other than yourself have.


'His Grace Bishop Dr.MITROPHAN said it was good to see teachers at the Deanery meetings. His Grace encouraged involving the boys as altar servers and girls to read the Epistle. His Grace said to teach and to live what is taught.


That is not a woman...that is a Bishop.

Get off your high horse of thinking you know -what- motivation drives people other than yourself.  


Of course, in your mind, he isn't even the Church....so this is a rather pointless discussion.....




OK well we probably have different ideas of what counts as "tradition". If one bishop decides to do something un-traditional, like have women read the epistles even when there are men around who can do it, and then people get used to that and forget how they did it before, then sure from their point of view it's "traditional" to have women read the epistle, even though if you take a longer historical view it's not traditional but an innovation. Now if you have examples from a hundred years ago before feminism got started and you can find examples of Orthodox churches letting women read the epistle, then that would be interesting, but examples like these are not really convincing on their own. I've never been to a traditionalist Orthodox church (like in the GOC or ROCOR) where women reading the epistle was the norm, which suggest that it is not an authentic tradition.

In the same way, lots of Protestants and Catholics think having organs and instruments in church services are "traditional" because that is not only what they remember from their childhood, but their parents too and their parents, often going back many generations. It's only on exposure to Orthodox practice that they realize that organs are not traditional at all from the point of view of authentic Christian tradition going back to the Apostles.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 11:56:18 AM by Jonathan Gress » Logged
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
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« Reply #48 on: May 14, 2014, 12:04:36 PM »

The issue is not about women reading the epistle. The issue is about laymen reading the epistle. Women can't be ordained as readers but IMO any non-ordained shouldn't be reading it.

It is desirable, but not essential, that someone be a tonsured reader to read the Epistle.

There are many epistle readers the world over who are not tonsured, but read the Epistle week in, week out, with the full approval of their hierarchy. In my 50 years in the church, across several jurisdictions and ethnicities, perhaps two or three of the epistle readers were tonsured.

My experience has been the opposite; a tonsured reader has always chanted the Epistle, with one possible exception. I was recently at a women's monastery and of the nuns (who also served as an acolyte) chanted the Epistle.

That said, I am not opposed to women serving as tonsured readers, deaconesses or altar servers--if these "innovations" will not cause scandal among the faithful. IMHO, there are no theological reasons why they should not perform non-sacerdotal functions.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 12:11:14 PM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) » Logged

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« Reply #49 on: May 14, 2014, 12:05:31 PM »

It's not about saying that women have no role in the church, but having the right understanding of what that role is. From my experience in traditionalist Orthodox churches, that role includes all sorts of stuff, such as baking prosphora, artos and fanouropita and cooking koliva, preparing flowers and decorations, cleaning the church and vestments, cooking agape meals, teaching Sunday school and Greek school to the children and much else. This is all necessary work and the church would not be able to function without them. Sure, these are humble and background roles: the women don't get to stand up in front of everyone and read the epistle and otherwise advertise their presence, and I can certainly see why some women would think they "deserve" more than the traditional roles. But then that gets us to the nub of the problem, which is pride, which is the antithesis of what Orthodoxy is about.

I also get the impression at the traditional churches I've been to that both men and women are content with the roles assigned to them. What makes it work is love we show each other and the respect we give to each of our duties, however humble or exalted.

I am leaving your whole quote...but honestly the part in orange is PURE speculation on your part.  Unless as has been suggested of others, you are also a mind reader and can thus understand the motivation of others........




Only you know the answer, but I honestly believe this is the underlying motivation for all the talk of "inclusiveness" and the apportioning of male roles in the church to females without necessity. If it weren't for pride, we would be content to accept the roles given to us by tradition as it's been handed down to us.


And my links above showed you that it is a tradition in various places....to have young women read the epistle....the quote was from a Bishop....not a woman demanding some right.  

Let me repeat it in case you didn't bother to read it...in your haste to decide what motivation people other than yourself have.


'His Grace Bishop Dr.MITROPHAN said it was good to see teachers at the Deanery meetings. His Grace encouraged involving the boys as altar servers and girls to read the Epistle. His Grace said to teach and to live what is taught.


That is not a woman...that is a Bishop.

Get off your high horse of thinking you know -what- motivation drives people other than yourself.  


Of course, in your mind, he isn't even the Church....so this is a rather pointless discussion.....




OK well we probably have different ideas of what counts as "tradition". If one bishop decides to do something un-traditional, like have women read the epistles even when there are men around who can do it, and then people get used to that and forget how they did it before, then sure from their point of view it's "traditional" to have women read the epistle, even though if you take a longer historical view it's not traditional but an innovation. Now if you have examples from a hundred years ago before feminism got started and you can find examples of Orthodox churches letting women read the epistle, then that would be interesting, but examples like these are not really convincing on their own. I've never been to a traditionalist Orthodox church (like in the GOC or ROCOR) where women reading the epistle was the norm, which suggest that it is not an authentic tradition.

In the same way, lots of Protestants and Catholics think having organs and instruments in church services are "traditional" because that is not only what they remember from their childhood, but their parents too and their parents, often going back many generations. It's only on exposure to Orthodox practice that they realize that organs are not traditional at all from the point of view of authentic Christian tradition going back to the Apostles.

Do you pray the Trisagion?

Or hold the Great and Little Entrance entirely in Church?

Do you confess before the icons and not the congregation?

Then you too have accepted the sort of innovations you condemn in others.  
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« Reply #50 on: May 14, 2014, 12:07:58 PM »

It's not about saying that women have no role in the church, but having the right understanding of what that role is. From my experience in traditionalist Orthodox churches, that role includes all sorts of stuff, such as baking prosphora, artos and fanouropita and cooking koliva, preparing flowers and decorations, cleaning the church and vestments, cooking agape meals, teaching Sunday school and Greek school to the children and much else. This is all necessary work and the church would not be able to function without them. Sure, these are humble and background roles: the women don't get to stand up in front of everyone and read the epistle and otherwise advertise their presence, and I can certainly see why some women would think they "deserve" more than the traditional roles. But then that gets us to the nub of the problem, which is pride, which is the antithesis of what Orthodoxy is about.

I also get the impression at the traditional churches I've been to that both men and women are content with the roles assigned to them. What makes it work is love we show each other and the respect we give to each of our duties, however humble or exalted.

I am leaving your whole quote...but honestly the part in orange is PURE speculation on your part.  Unless as has been suggested of others, you are also a mind reader and can thus understand the motivation of others........




Only you know the answer, but I honestly believe this is the underlying motivation for all the talk of "inclusiveness" and the apportioning of male roles in the church to females without necessity. If it weren't for pride, we would be content to accept the roles given to us by tradition as it's been handed down to us.


And my links above showed you that it is a tradition in various places....to have young women read the epistle....the quote was from a Bishop....not a woman demanding some right.  

Let me repeat it in case you didn't bother to read it...in your haste to decide what motivation people other than yourself have.


'His Grace Bishop Dr.MITROPHAN said it was good to see teachers at the Deanery meetings. His Grace encouraged involving the boys as altar servers and girls to read the Epistle. His Grace said to teach and to live what is taught.


That is not a woman...that is a Bishop.

Get off your high horse of thinking you know -what- motivation drives people other than yourself.  


Of course, in your mind, he isn't even the Church....so this is a rather pointless discussion.....




OK well we probably have different ideas of what counts as "tradition". If one bishop decides to do something un-traditional, like have women read the epistles even when there are men around who can do it, and then people get used to that and forget how they did it before, then sure from their point of view it's "traditional" to have women read the epistle, even though if you take a longer historical view it's not traditional but an innovation. Now if you have examples from a hundred years ago before feminism got started and you can find examples of Orthodox churches letting women read the epistle, then that would be interesting, but examples like these are not really convincing on their own. I've never been to a traditionalist Orthodox church (like in the GOC or ROCOR) where women reading the epistle was the norm, which suggest that it is not an authentic tradition.

In the same way, lots of Protestants and Catholics think having organs and instruments in church services are "traditional" because that is not only what they remember from their childhood, but their parents too and their parents, often going back many generations. It's only on exposure to Orthodox practice that they realize that organs are not traditional at all from the point of view of authentic Christian tradition going back to the Apostles.


Well its not one Bishop...and it goes back hundreds of years.

Alas I am at work, and don't truly have the time to chase more resources for you....and I apologize for that...

However...you say 'I have never been to a ....' and give a very narrow range of attendance...as 'proof' that it simply cannot be tradition.

That's no more convincing that it cannot be tradition somewhere you simply have not yet been.  
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Jonathan Gress
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« Reply #51 on: May 14, 2014, 12:18:18 PM »

It's not about saying that women have no role in the church, but having the right understanding of what that role is. From my experience in traditionalist Orthodox churches, that role includes all sorts of stuff, such as baking prosphora, artos and fanouropita and cooking koliva, preparing flowers and decorations, cleaning the church and vestments, cooking agape meals, teaching Sunday school and Greek school to the children and much else. This is all necessary work and the church would not be able to function without them. Sure, these are humble and background roles: the women don't get to stand up in front of everyone and read the epistle and otherwise advertise their presence, and I can certainly see why some women would think they "deserve" more than the traditional roles. But then that gets us to the nub of the problem, which is pride, which is the antithesis of what Orthodoxy is about.

I also get the impression at the traditional churches I've been to that both men and women are content with the roles assigned to them. What makes it work is love we show each other and the respect we give to each of our duties, however humble or exalted.

I am leaving your whole quote...but honestly the part in orange is PURE speculation on your part.  Unless as has been suggested of others, you are also a mind reader and can thus understand the motivation of others........




Only you know the answer, but I honestly believe this is the underlying motivation for all the talk of "inclusiveness" and the apportioning of male roles in the church to females without necessity. If it weren't for pride, we would be content to accept the roles given to us by tradition as it's been handed down to us.


And my links above showed you that it is a tradition in various places....to have young women read the epistle....the quote was from a Bishop....not a woman demanding some right.  

Let me repeat it in case you didn't bother to read it...in your haste to decide what motivation people other than yourself have.


'His Grace Bishop Dr.MITROPHAN said it was good to see teachers at the Deanery meetings. His Grace encouraged involving the boys as altar servers and girls to read the Epistle. His Grace said to teach and to live what is taught.


That is not a woman...that is a Bishop.

Get off your high horse of thinking you know -what- motivation drives people other than yourself.  


Of course, in your mind, he isn't even the Church....so this is a rather pointless discussion.....




OK well we probably have different ideas of what counts as "tradition". If one bishop decides to do something un-traditional, like have women read the epistles even when there are men around who can do it, and then people get used to that and forget how they did it before, then sure from their point of view it's "traditional" to have women read the epistle, even though if you take a longer historical view it's not traditional but an innovation. Now if you have examples from a hundred years ago before feminism got started and you can find examples of Orthodox churches letting women read the epistle, then that would be interesting, but examples like these are not really convincing on their own. I've never been to a traditionalist Orthodox church (like in the GOC or ROCOR) where women reading the epistle was the norm, which suggest that it is not an authentic tradition.

In the same way, lots of Protestants and Catholics think having organs and instruments in church services are "traditional" because that is not only what they remember from their childhood, but their parents too and their parents, often going back many generations. It's only on exposure to Orthodox practice that they realize that organs are not traditional at all from the point of view of authentic Christian tradition going back to the Apostles.

Do you pray the Trisagion?

Or hold the Great and Little Entrance entirely in Church?

Do you confess before the icons and not the congregation?

Then you too have accepted the sort of innovations you condemn in others.  

One innovation doesn't automatically justify another. If any change in outward practice takes place, it should be in mind of the inward spirit of the law. When it comes to women reading the epistle, I'm skeptical about the motivation behind it. If the idea is to "include" women in Church life, I just explained how women already participate in Church life through their particular roles. It seems the motivation is rather to give women the same roles as men in the church, and I don't see anything in Orthodox tradition that justifies such an attitude. Rather, it seems to be inspired by ideas coming from outside the Church, like feminism which holds that men and women are equal and should be allowed to carry out the same kinds of work and duties. So no, I don't trust it.

I don't know about the Trisagion or the Entrances, but the requirement to confess only before an icon and a priest is clearly a concession to human weakness. It is certainly something to be humble about that we can't confess our sins before the whole congregation, but the awareness of the innovation in practice itself inspires humility, and it preserves the spirit of the original practice in we continue to confess our sins before God and before a human witness.
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« Reply #52 on: May 14, 2014, 12:18:59 PM »

It's not about saying that women have no role in the church, but having the right understanding of what that role is. From my experience in traditionalist Orthodox churches, that role includes all sorts of stuff, such as baking prosphora, artos and fanouropita and cooking koliva, preparing flowers and decorations, cleaning the church and vestments, cooking agape meals, teaching Sunday school and Greek school to the children and much else. This is all necessary work and the church would not be able to function without them. Sure, these are humble and background roles: the women don't get to stand up in front of everyone and read the epistle and otherwise advertise their presence, and I can certainly see why some women would think they "deserve" more than the traditional roles. But then that gets us to the nub of the problem, which is pride, which is the antithesis of what Orthodoxy is about.

I also get the impression at the traditional churches I've been to that both men and women are content with the roles assigned to them. What makes it work is love we show each other and the respect we give to each of our duties, however humble or exalted.

I am leaving your whole quote...but honestly the part in orange is PURE speculation on your part.  Unless as has been suggested of others, you are also a mind reader and can thus understand the motivation of others........




Only you know the answer, but I honestly believe this is the underlying motivation for all the talk of "inclusiveness" and the apportioning of male roles in the church to females without necessity. If it weren't for pride, we would be content to accept the roles given to us by tradition as it's been handed down to us.


And my links above showed you that it is a tradition in various places....to have young women read the epistle....the quote was from a Bishop....not a woman demanding some right.  

Let me repeat it in case you didn't bother to read it...in your haste to decide what motivation people other than yourself have.


'His Grace Bishop Dr.MITROPHAN said it was good to see teachers at the Deanery meetings. His Grace encouraged involving the boys as altar servers and girls to read the Epistle. His Grace said to teach and to live what is taught.


That is not a woman...that is a Bishop.

Get off your high horse of thinking you know -what- motivation drives people other than yourself.  


Of course, in your mind, he isn't even the Church....so this is a rather pointless discussion.....




OK well we probably have different ideas of what counts as "tradition". If one bishop decides to do something un-traditional, like have women read the epistles even when there are men around who can do it, and then people get used to that and forget how they did it before, then sure from their point of view it's "traditional" to have women read the epistle, even though if you take a longer historical view it's not traditional but an innovation. Now if you have examples from a hundred years ago before feminism got started and you can find examples of Orthodox churches letting women read the epistle, then that would be interesting, but examples like these are not really convincing on their own. I've never been to a traditionalist Orthodox church (like in the GOC or ROCOR) where women reading the epistle was the norm, which suggest that it is not an authentic tradition.

In the same way, lots of Protestants and Catholics think having organs and instruments in church services are "traditional" because that is not only what they remember from their childhood, but their parents too and their parents, often going back many generations. It's only on exposure to Orthodox practice that they realize that organs are not traditional at all from the point of view of authentic Christian tradition going back to the Apostles.


Well its not one Bishop...and it goes back hundreds of years.

Alas I am at work, and don't truly have the time to chase more resources for you....and I apologize for that...

However...you say 'I have never been to a ....' and give a very narrow range of attendance...as 'proof' that it simply cannot be tradition.

That's no more convincing that it cannot be tradition somewhere you simply have not yet been.  

Denise, I am happy to be corrected if this really is an old tradition that goes back centuries.
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« Reply #53 on: May 14, 2014, 12:19:29 PM »

I have never been to a canonical parish that refused to obey the instructions of their bishop to permit women or non-tonsured laypersons to read, so I would submit that it suggests that it is an authentic tradition to be in obeyance to one's bishop on matters pertaining to praxis.
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« Reply #54 on: May 14, 2014, 12:31:52 PM »

I have never been to a canonical parish that refused to obey the instructions of their bishop to permit women or non-tonsured laypersons to read, so I would submit that it suggests that it is an authentic tradition to be in obeyance to one's bishop on matters pertaining to praxis.

I'm not sure the distinction is quite this clear-cut, though I agree in general that as rational sheep we need to be sure about our bishop's correct confession of faith while allowing him his discretion in applying the canons and ordering practical church life. But I can imagine several aspects of praxis where we would surely all agree a bishop does not have discretion. E.g. if the bishops decided that it was okay to marry two men or two women. It's an extreme example, sure, but can you provide a watertight argument that this would be a dogmatic rather than a practical issue? The problem is that in Orthodoxy we don't have an absolute distinction between dogma and praxis, but they blend into each other. E.g. one of the doctrinal areas of disagreement with the Catholics is their use of unleavened bread for the Eucharist. Is that dogma or just praxis?

St Paul said explicitly that women should not "speak" in church, by which I think the traditional interpretation is that they should not have teaching or preaching roles. And strictly speaking all the individual spoken or chanted roles in the Divine services are reserved for men tonsured or ordained in various orders, either as reader, subdeacon, deacon or priest. In practice, untonsured men often carry out the first role, but notably the formal order of reader is not open to women. So there is definitely reason to believe that, as normative practice, women do not take up spoken roles in the church without necessity. Again, though, I'd be interested to entertain evidence to the contrary.
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« Reply #55 on: May 14, 2014, 01:30:05 PM »




[/quote]
 
Jonathan Gress wrote:

OK well we probably have different ideas of what counts as "tradition". If one bishop decides to do something un-traditional, like have women read the epistles even when there are men around who can do it, and then people get used to that and forget how they did it before, then sure from their point of view it's "traditional" to have women read the epistle, even though if you take a longer historical view it's not traditional but an innovation. Now if you have examples from a hundred years ago before feminism got started and you can find examples of Orthodox churches letting women read the epistle, then that would be interesting, but examples like these are not really convincing on their own. I've never been to a traditionalist Orthodox church (like in the GOC or ROCOR) where women reading the epistle was the norm, which suggest that it is not an authentic tradition.

In the same way, lots of Protestants and Catholics think having organs and instruments in church services are "traditional" because that is not only what they remember from their childhood, but their parents too and their parents, often going back many generations. It's only on exposure to Orthodox practice that they realize that organs are not traditional at all from the point of view of authentic Christian tradition going back to the Apostles.
[/quote]

Actually, Orthodox churches of the West were using organs as part of her worship as early as the 7th century, but before that, no record of it.   So, going back to the Apostles?  No, but a lot of things in the Orthodox church do not go back to the Apostles.  For instance, the use of a spoon to administer communion.  Apparently there is a canon against the use of any utensil to administer the holy mysteries, but was instead placed in the hand (on a cloth).  Later there arose a need, so tradition was broken to innovate.

There are those in the TOC groups who do not allow women to chant/sing, ignoring certain traditions allowing such to take place in our worship, but does that mean they are doing it correctly by not allowing women to chant?  No.  TOC does not denote a "puritanical" practice in all they do, in fact they have plenty of innovation of their own.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 01:30:38 PM by Cyrus » Logged
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« Reply #56 on: May 14, 2014, 02:53:03 PM »

I don't know about other TOC groups but in the GOC I have frequently seen women chanting. One could argue that if women can chant, then they can also perform the duties of reader, though a reader outranks a chanter.
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« Reply #57 on: May 14, 2014, 03:02:00 PM »

It's worth adding that an innovation in one area does not make it OK to innovate in other areas. Every innovation and economy is something to be regretted on account of our weakness, not "progress" to be welcomed. We want to minimize change and innovation as much as we are able. It is of course always a delicate matter for the bishop to decide which economies are needed for the sake of our weakness, and perhaps Bp Mitrofan had some very compelling reason. The other possibility, however, is that the innovation was simply seen as good way to make the Church "relevant", and I suspect it's the latter that was the primary motive.
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« Reply #58 on: May 14, 2014, 06:38:57 PM »

ive come to the personal conclusion that antioch is good, however one should not forget the innovations. Not to be lazy like 'behold the bridegroom' chant says, or heedless.

It is canonical and we should treat as such. Bishops have said that it is canonical, we should respect their judgements. To be against them, is to be against those whom God has chosen. Like a monk we shouldnt even question their judgements, bcos i think God will always provide a Mark of Ephesus.
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« Reply #59 on: May 15, 2014, 11:02:28 PM »

So is this actually a tradition or just some innovation from a few decades ago? I'm asking sincerely. If you think the traditional (and scriptural) practices about men alone chanting and reading in church are wrong, out-of-date or whatever, at least have the guts to just say so. Don't start inventing nonexistent traditions.
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« Reply #60 on: May 15, 2014, 11:32:34 PM »

They can be altar servers.

There is no such rank in the Orthodox Church, and I personally feel that the allowance of utterly unordained men/boys to perform what are essentially clerical tasks in liturgical services is one of those "tolerated abuses" I mentioned earlier.  I'm not sure if this is an independent development in Orthodoxy or is related to a similar custom in the Latin West, but it is certainly not the ideal.  If it is allowed, it is allowed because they are standing in for clerics and can presumably be ordained if there are no impediments.  Of course, the question then becomes "Why not ordain?" 

Quote
They are blessed much more frequently to enter the altar than women for various things, such as telling the priest that all the koliva got eaten.

LOL. 

Besides the above, I'm not always sure if they have a blessing to enter the altar or if, possessing male genitals, they think themselves qualified to just walk in, and the priest simply passes on kicking them out and making them do it over properly.  I've seen that happen.   

Quote
I was also thinking of the belief that the husband is the spiritual head of the household, and I assume that would mean that he would lead prayers in the home.

Ideally, yes, but I'm not sure how much of that is a "male" privilege vs "husband" privilege.  And in practice, it varies.  I don't think I've ever seen a family in which the husband/father is the primary "prayer leader" unless he also happened to be a priest/deacon.  Perhaps it used to be more common, or I'm just surrounded by modernists.

So is this actually a tradition or just some innovation from a few decades ago? I'm asking sincerely. If you think the traditional (and scriptural) practices about men alone chanting and reading in church are wrong, out-of-date or whatever, at least have the guts to just say so. Don't start inventing nonexistent traditions.

If we are talking about women reading the Epistle, I cannot recall having come across any serious scholarship indicating that such is an ancient practice.  But there is patristic precedent for women's involvement and even leadership in chanting and reading: St Ephrem, for one, composed a number of his hymns specifically for women's choirs (which he had a hand in forming) in "mixed" congregations, something for which he was praised after his death.  The reception of hymnography authored by women into the liturgical corpus can be said, by extension, to give them a role in chanting and reading.  And there is reason to believe that in certain places there were women in one or the other order (deaconesses or minor clerics) who would perform these tasks, usually but not only in monasteries--but again, they would've been clerics of some sort, not some lady picked out of the congregation.   

I'm not sure the Scriptures specify that only men may chant and read in church: I'm inclined to believe this is a later (mis)application of St Paul's admonition for women to be silent in church.     
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« Reply #61 on: May 15, 2014, 11:40:35 PM »

Thanks Mor, the historical info is always more important than opinions. Do you remember where you learned that about St. Ephrem?

Do you think that St. Paul's words do not indicate any difference in roles among lay Christians? Historically speaking.
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« Reply #62 on: May 15, 2014, 11:57:04 PM »

Thanks Mor, the historical info is always more important than opinions. Do you remember where you learned that about St. Ephrem?

It's too late for me to rummage through the attic and look for it to make sure, but I believe it was in Sebastian Brock's The Luminous Eye: The Spiritual World Vision of Saint Ephrem the Syrian

Quote
Do you think that St. Paul's words do not indicate any difference in roles among lay Christians? Historically speaking.

I think there is definitely some difference in lay roles: for example, St Paul seems to speak of widows as an "order", but to the best of my knowledge "widow" was never a clerical order in the way "reader" is, so we're talking about a certain category of laypeople with particular roles within the larger community.  I'm just not sure we can take something like the "women should be silent" admonition as an absolute prohibition of women from chanting and reading--certainly St Ephrem didn't.  But I've heard stories of how this was (mis)applied and created all sorts of weird situations even in our own day.   
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« Reply #63 on: May 16, 2014, 01:25:41 AM »

        and I have to take issue with the 'baking prosphora' remark.
 I have some dough rising right now ready to be  baked for Sunday's Divine Liturgy.
 And I'm not a woman.
 I took on the job - well, split it 50-50 - with the young lady who does 1001 things in and for the parish, but had to take it easy when her second daughter arrived.
And we've been working this way ever since.
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« Reply #64 on: May 16, 2014, 01:38:41 AM »

        and I have to take issue with the 'baking prosphora' remark.
 I have some dough rising right now ready to be  baked for Sunday's Divine Liturgy.

So early?  How long do you let it rise??
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« Reply #65 on: May 16, 2014, 01:42:32 AM »

        and I have to take issue with the 'baking prosphora' remark.
 I have some dough rising right now ready to be  baked for Sunday's Divine Liturgy.
 And I'm not a woman.
 I took on the job - well, split it 50-50 - with the young lady who does 1001 things in and for the parish, but had to take it easy when her second daughter arrived.
And we've been working this way ever since.

Yes, please do tell.

Since I took pottery classes, when I attempt to bake any kind of bread, I overknead it, so it comes out like a rock.
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« Reply #66 on: May 16, 2014, 01:48:46 AM »

...."until (about) doubled in volume"
45 - 60 minutes
 We use one large prosphora - well, I guess  'prosphoron' would be the singular, but my Greek is rusty.

So, 3 1/2 c white flour;
 about 1 1/2, 1 3/4 water -- just so the dough isn't too stiff
salt
yeast  

and yes, it's early I know, I usually do it Friday night; more often even on Saturdays.
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« Reply #67 on: May 16, 2014, 02:03:49 AM »

and yes, it's early I know, I usually do it Friday night; more often even on Saturdays.

We're not allowed to make it that far in advance: we prepare and knead the dough on the eve and bake the following morning before the Liturgy. 
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« Reply #68 on: May 16, 2014, 02:05:53 AM »

     yes, well, you certainly don't want to 'slab' bread dough.
   for the ordinary bread, like what I should have made for my self tonight, but didn't;
  using a/p flour - or 'unbleached bread flour'
I knead until I can poke my forefinger into the dough up to the first knuckle, and the depression remains after I've pulled my finger out.
  But for the Prosphora, I knead much less than that. Given a gentle 'poke' (are you there, Mor?)
if the dough slowly fills in the depression, then that's enough.
send me a PM if you want more info.
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« Reply #69 on: May 16, 2014, 02:14:35 AM »

 Mor;
I've always had an uneasy feeling about this,
We're a Mission of an OCA parish and both the priests are to my way of thinking, just a little too lax in some things - like this, for instance.

BTW: the dough, unsealed and unbaked, is now in the garbage.
I'll start again Saturday  but I'll have to bake it Saturday night.
Thanks for the 'heads up.'
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« Reply #70 on: May 16, 2014, 02:19:57 AM »

        and btw: for prosphora I use 'white flour' --- not ----- unbleached A/P
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« Reply #71 on: May 16, 2014, 02:23:03 AM »

BTW: the dough, unsealed and unbaked, is now in the garbage.
I'll start again Saturday  but I'll have to bake it Saturday night.
Thanks for the 'heads up.'

Oh man, I didn't mean for you to go and do that! 
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« Reply #72 on: May 16, 2014, 02:26:41 AM »

Not a problem!
Nice to have someone who knows what's what; instead of pious "maybe this, maybe that"
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« Reply #73 on: May 16, 2014, 05:33:18 AM »

Mor;
I've always had an uneasy feeling about this,
We're a Mission of an OCA parish and both the priests are to my way of thinking, just a little too lax in some things - like this, for instance.

BTW: the dough, unsealed and unbaked, is now in the garbage.
I'll start again Saturday  but I'll have to bake it Saturday night.
Thanks for the 'heads up.'

I admit the first three times I read it, I saw 'garage' and wondered why one would put raw dough out where the car is, until Saturday and then bake it.

I kept thinking, wouldn't the yeast just keep eating? Is it warm enough out there?

*smacks herself upside the head*
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« Reply #74 on: May 16, 2014, 05:37:27 AM »

Mor;
I've always had an uneasy feeling about this,
We're a Mission of an OCA parish and both the priests are to my way of thinking, just a little too lax in some things - like this, for instance.

BTW: the dough, unsealed and unbaked, is now in the garbage.
I'll start again Saturday  but I'll have to bake it Saturday night.
Thanks for the 'heads up.'

I admit the first three times I read it, I saw 'garage' and wondered why one would put raw dough out where the car is, until Saturday and then bake it.

I kept thinking, wouldn't the yeast just keep eating? Is it warm enough out there?

*smacks herself upside the head*

The very best place to let yeast dough rise is in the car, parked outside, on a mild to warm day. The warmth inside is even and gentle, perfect for proving.
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« Reply #75 on: May 16, 2014, 05:42:26 AM »

I suspect if you left it there from Thursday  to Saturday you might have a very doughy car interior!
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« Reply #76 on: May 16, 2014, 05:49:07 AM »

I suspect if you left it there from Thursday  to Saturday you might have a very doughy car interior!

Indeed!  Shocked Unless it was midwinter, I suppose ...
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« Reply #77 on: May 16, 2014, 07:41:04 AM »

Not a problem!
Nice to have someone who knows what's what; instead of pious "maybe this, maybe that"
There is no such rule in the Orthodox Church and you just wasted bread. Because one parish does something a certain way does not make it a rule for everyone else.
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« Reply #78 on: May 16, 2014, 08:33:06 AM »

        and I have to take issue with the 'baking prosphora' remark.
 I have some dough rising right now ready to be  baked for Sunday's Divine Liturgy.

So early?  How long do you let it rise??
3 days. Haven't you ever read Scripture?  Wink
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« Reply #79 on: May 16, 2014, 08:50:30 AM »

Maybe he should have put it in the garage.  Grin
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« Reply #80 on: May 16, 2014, 09:21:03 AM »

yes, well if the Condo building I am part owner of had a condost heap - or is it compost head?-
then that would be the ideal place for it. Nature' balance would be restored; the nice wiggly worms would turn into - well- compost of course and get a free drink to boot.
But we don't; so I can't and neither can they.
Snfff

Now as to 'place' of rising. I have absolutely no intention of buying a nassty air-polluting car complete with all the appertaining expenses: Provincial licence plates, insurance, a driver's licence &c.     ......... simply to have a nice warm place to let my bread rise. (Mine and God'S for that matter)

Electric oven  -- has a little 15wt bulb in the back which you can leave on by flipping a switch on the back panel. This enables you to "see through the glass,darkly" ICor 13, v?
(darkly? for my oven? = not-at-all)

Anyway, turn it on before you start measuring and mixing - and then, when the dough is ready
so is the oven, about 30-35 * - just right.
 And why make unnecessary work for yourself?
The dough has finished its 'mixing' stage when it starts pulling aside from the bowl.
Take it out with your immaculately clean hands, put on a board or plate, dump the excess flour and paste into a small container for future use (kneading)   do NOT oil the sides &c of the bowl,
dough back in, cover with cling film - well, a damp towel is traditional - but not, I think "Traditional."
(chokes on coffee)
Set the kitchen timer for 45 min. you're looking for the dough to have doubled in volume.

Next installment after replacing coffee all over pajamas.
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« Reply #81 on: May 16, 2014, 10:04:23 AM »

how to swear on a keyboard \!@#$%?&*()_+

my !@#$ pop-up blocker didn't;
 the 'Who flung dung' ad for some Chinese movie neatly!!! erased all I had typed.
(Oh well, I needed to change out of those pj's anyway....)
but what a waste of lovely coffee.
Maybe I should use the little yellow pictures at the top.

Where's my prayer-robe? use it while the kettle boils again.

next installment shortly - I hope.
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« Reply #82 on: May 16, 2014, 10:09:49 AM »

Not a problem!
Nice to have someone who knows what's what; instead of pious "maybe this, maybe that"
There is no such rule in the Orthodox Church and you just wasted bread. Because one parish does something a certain way does not make it a rule for everyone else.

Gotta agree with that.
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« Reply #83 on: May 16, 2014, 11:56:26 AM »

Not a problem!
Nice to have someone who knows what's what; instead of pious "maybe this, maybe that"
There is no such rule in the Orthodox Church and you just wasted bread. Because one parish does something a certain way does not make it a rule for everyone else.

Gotta agree with that.

Except mine was not a parish practice, but a canon.  If the EO don't have any such strictures, that is another matter.   
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« Reply #84 on: May 16, 2014, 11:58:25 AM »

Not a problem!
Nice to have someone who knows what's what; instead of pious "maybe this, maybe that"
There is no such rule in the Orthodox Church and you just wasted bread. Because one parish does something a certain way does not make it a rule for everyone else.

Gotta agree with that.

Except mine was not a parish practice, but a canon.  If the EO don't have any such strictures, that is another matter.   
Yet another cautionary tale on why we should view those OO with suspicion.  Tongue
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« Reply #85 on: May 16, 2014, 12:05:36 PM »


Except mine was not a parish practice, but a canon.  If the EO don't have any such strictures, that is another matter.   
Yet another cautionary tale on why we should view those OO with suspicion.  Tongue

Come on, we all know that the Holy Spirit is not powerful enough to change bread made any other way into the Body of Christ.

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« Reply #86 on: May 16, 2014, 01:14:58 PM »

 police
WHAAAT?

maybe we should start building a bonfire somewhere...!!!
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« Reply #87 on: May 16, 2014, 04:03:10 PM »

I suspect if you left it there from Thursday  to Saturday you might have a very doughy car interior!

Or bread that is full of new car aroma!
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« Reply #88 on: May 16, 2014, 04:11:08 PM »

Not a problem!
Nice to have someone who knows what's what; instead of pious "maybe this, maybe that"
There is no such rule in the Orthodox Church and you just wasted bread. Because one parish does something a certain way does not make it a rule for everyone else.

Gotta agree with that.

Except mine was not a parish practice, but a canon.  If the EO don't have any such strictures, that is another matter.    

When I was attending the local Antiochian Orthodox Church, sometimes we were given moldy bread by the altar boys, so I think that freshly baked altar bread is best. Some churches do have a huge freezer where they store extra loaves of bread. Then the altar boys would zap it in the microwave just before the Divine Liturgy, but it would end up tough in texture and very crumbly.

The Antiochians also had women reading the Epistle and even giving homilies. Some were good, but I preferred that readers would read the Epistle and that priests would deliver the homilies.
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« Reply #89 on: May 16, 2014, 04:29:48 PM »

Deacons can give homilies, too. It is one of their functions, both to read the Gospel and to preach it.
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