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Author Topic: Women and the Epistle  (Read 1673 times) Average Rating: 0
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isaelie
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« on: May 12, 2014, 08:29:51 PM »

I found a thread on this, but it got off-topic.

Women doing the Epistle, what do you think? Quite frankly, I get annoyed very much when this is the case. I've seen it done in slavonic churches. But when done in a byzantine style, i get distressed. Keep in mind that there always are very capable men who are able to do it, and are standing right there. Common practise here in australia in antioch church's. I run out of the church when this happens. I am not kidding. The men of the choir give it to women to do more than half the time, as if they have to satisfy some equality constraint.

I pray for the ordination of a reader, so I can stop running out of the church. But God is gracious, and who are we to dispute who he has chosen as his clergy, or their decisions.

Anything of this sort happen to you?
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« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2014, 08:43:05 PM »

Women doing the Epistle, what do you think? Quite frankly, I get annoyed very much when this is the case.

Why do you get annoyed?

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« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2014, 08:48:30 PM »

Because there are men there to do it, women dont know how to do it properly, they dress very inappropiately, they are reading from the Bible but you get the feeling they are putting on a show contest, they give the choir master a dirty look if they do not get the reading, they do not wear head covering, they want the microphone to be right on their lips so the street outside can hear them, its not proper chanting because they add their emotion into it and their own agenda, respect for the men that are there

EDIT: Respect for God and the Liturgy, realising the difference between men and women, if men and women are the same, why are the priests men? Why was Jesus a God-Man?
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« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2014, 09:03:26 PM »

I belong to a small mission with one priest and no deacon.  One of the families at our mission has 2 daughters who have been doing the chanting for the past five years.  One of them usually reads the Epistle.  She dresses modestly, wears a headcovering, and reads just fine.  They are they same words no matter which gender reads them.
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« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2014, 09:15:20 PM »

Why was Jesus a God-Man?

I don't think this line of reasoning will take you where you want it to.
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« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2014, 09:26:02 PM »

I found a thread on this, but it got off-topic.

Women doing the Epistle, what do you think?

I am with you.  I don't run out of such a church, I just don't attend it in the first place.  There is never a Liturgy where there is not at least one man there - the priest.  From what I have seen, the churches that allow women to read have been boiling the frog with other innovations, too, such as shortening the liturgy, revising the calendar, cutting the canon out of Matins, allowing priests to remarry and the like.  And they are good at making excuses for all of it, just as the Psalmist says. 
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« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2014, 09:37:47 PM »

Because there are men there to do it

If the men are not tonsured readers, they are just as undesirable.

Quote
women dont know how to do it properly

That can be fixed fairly easily.  Even men had to be taught how to read. 

Quote
they dress very inappropiately

This, too, can be addressed fairly easily. 

Quote
they are reading from the Bible but you get the feeling they are putting on a show contest

I've seen men do this too.  In both cases, this can and ought to be addressed by training, both before taking up this task and continual education.

Quote
they give the choir master a dirty look if they do not get the reading

Also not limited to women.

Quote
they do not wear head covering

If your priest allows them to commune without wearing a head covering, then this is a losing battle to fight. 

Quote
they want the microphone to be right on their lips so the street outside can hear them

I know a priest that does this, to the point that it looks indecent.  This, too, is a matter of training. 

And, honestly, I wouldn't mind if the Scriptures were audible from the street.  At least it gives the smokers loitering outside something to think about. 

Quote
its not proper chanting because they add their emotion into it and their own agenda

Not limited to women and can be addressed by training. 

Quote
respect for the men that are there

Liturgical service is not about respecting men.

Quote
Respect for God and the Liturgy

This point needs elabouration.

Quote
realising the difference between men and women

This has little to do with it, IMO. 

Quote
if men and women are the same, why are the priests men? Why was Jesus a God-Man?

Priesthood and "reading" are two rather different things, so male priesthood really shouldn't enter too seriously into this discussion. 

And asking why Jesus became incarnate as a man isn't going to help us understand the office of reader, even if it is otherwise useful.     
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« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2014, 09:40:43 PM »

I am sorry i was on the train, i will add more to what i wanted to say.
Epistles were written by bishops

Ideal order of the church is that a reader should do epistle, and as u know a reader must be a man

12 apostle were men

If you know that head covering is an Orthodox pious tradition on account of the angels, why you O woman should neglect it? And then after you're negligence consider yourself worthy to read the the epistle? No thanks.

Humility is first, I think a beautiful soul is one who is humble, God forgive me for everything, sorry i cant read ur replies anytime soon
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« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2014, 09:44:23 PM »

A tonsured reader is obviously the most desirable but otherwise I don't see it being a distraction to the liturgy.  At our parish, we have women read the epistle during October or during other services that have several readings.  It's not as though the women are in the sanctuary parading around and the like.

I will agree that being respectfully dressed is important, but it's important for both sexes.  I don't think it's appropriate for a man or a woman to come to Divine Liturgy dressed in a football jersey and NFL mini logos on their face; I did see this once and that person was not allowed to commune.  Common sense should always prevail.
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« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2014, 10:40:27 AM »

Does this bother other people?  Have you all adressed the issue with the priest?
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« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2014, 10:47:48 AM »

Every so often, we have the teens in the parish do the epistle reading. Some of them are girls.  I never gave it a second thought. I figure what is being read is more important than who is reading it.
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« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2014, 12:19:10 PM »

My impression is that, if necessary, e.g. if there's literally no one else who can do it, a woman can carry out the functions of a reader, which I suppose would include reading the Epistle. But in this instance, is there really no man who can be made a reader, or is this just about tokenism and being politically correct and inclusive?
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« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2014, 01:22:17 PM »

Every so often, we have the teens in the parish do the epistle reading. Some of them are girls.  I never gave it a second thought. I figure what is being read is more important than who is reading it.

True, but the problem I have is that too many people (both men and women) who want to read the epistle have no business reading the epistle for a variety of reasons including, but not limited to: 1)  They don't speak clearly 2) They don't speak loud enough 3)  They try to be dramatic in the reading (thus having people focus on the reader rather than the message) 4) changing the text as they read (e.g. instead of saying "brothers" or "brethren" one reader likes to say "Brothers and sisters.")  5)  cannot intone/chant the prokeimenon because they do not understand the Byzantine tonal system, etc.  

IMHO, the epistle should be read by only  tonsured readers, but I know that will never fly in my parish, though I do know some parishes who limit reading the epistle to those people.
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« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2014, 02:04:55 PM »

Does this bother other people?  Have you all adressed the issue with the priest?

It certainly bothered me when I visited my original GOA parish of record. Thus far in 12 years I've not seen this with the Rusyns.
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« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2014, 02:16:49 PM »

Every so often, we have the teens in the parish do the epistle reading. Some of them are girls.  I never gave it a second thought. I figure what is being read is more important than who is reading it.

True, but the problem I have is that too many people (both men and women) who want to read the epistle have no business reading the epistle for a variety of reasons including, but not limited to: 1)  They don't speak clearly 2) They don't speak loud enough 3)  They try to be dramatic in the reading (thus having people focus on the reader rather than the message) 4) changing the text as they read (e.g. instead of saying "brothers" or "brethren" one reader likes to say "Brothers and sisters.")  5)  cannot intone/chant the prokeimenon because they do not understand the Byzantine tonal system, etc.  

IMHO, the epistle should be read by only  tonsured readers, but I know that will never fly in my parish, though I do know some parishes who limit reading the epistle to those people.
Those certainly can be problems, and I do enjoy the tonsured readers when they do the readings better, but with education, the others can do a good job of it as well.  I see nothing wrong with trying to involve as many people as possible providing it is not causing a disturbance or a distraction.  If it is causing those, then those disturbances should be addressed, but I don't see a benefit the throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
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« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2014, 04:15:44 PM »

Although I'm rather a liturgical conservative, I don't see any problem in women doing some readings under the condition they're prepared for it. Especially it may be necessary in small parishes/missions or even in normal parishes, but e.g during weekdays or some special occasions. Reading is not a priesthood, so it's not reserved only for men. Women usually make much more than half people being at a service so it's very nice if they can just something do and serve in some way.
What's more, e.g. on Pascha actually everybody can read the Gospel in his/her native language and it happennes quite often.

And what's your opinion isaelie reading/chanting other prayers (e.g the Hours) by women then?


Sometimes I chant the Old Testament at the Presanctified Liturgies, once I've also chanted the epistle, it was at a baptism service - two Serbs were baptised and I was asked by my priest to prepare the reading (Serbian text and Serbian chanting style of epistle) as he knew that I've attended Church Slavonic lessons (at which we don't only study the language, but also how to chant and read various liturgical texts) and sometimes had read some prayers and the OT readings.
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« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2014, 04:22:12 PM »

The issue is not about women reading the epistle. The issue is about laymen reading the epistle. Women can't be ordained as readers but IMO any non-ordained shouldn't be reading it.
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« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2014, 04:36:50 PM »

Every so often, we have the teens in the parish do the epistle reading. Some of them are girls.  I never gave it a second thought. I figure what is being read is more important than who is reading it.

True, but the problem I have is that too many people (both men and women) who want to read the epistle have no business reading the epistle for a variety of reasons including, but not limited to: 1)  They don't speak clearly 2) They don't speak loud enough 3)  They try to be dramatic in the reading (thus having people focus on the reader rather than the message) 4) changing the text as they read (e.g. instead of saying "brothers" or "brethren" one reader likes to say "Brothers and sisters.")  5)  cannot intone/chant the prokeimenon because they do not understand the Byzantine tonal system, etc.  

IMHO, the epistle should be read by only  tonsured readers, but I know that will never fly in my parish, though I do know some parishes who limit reading the epistle to those people.
Those certainly can be problems, and I do enjoy the tonsured readers when they do the readings better, but with education, the others can do a good job of it as well.  I see nothing wrong with trying to involve as many people as possible providing it is not causing a disturbance or a distraction.  If it is causing those, then those disturbances should be addressed, but I don't see a benefit the throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

The problem is that education on how to "properly" read the epistle has been given but no one wants to take advantage of it because they think the way they do it is just fine.  And it's not just limited to the epistle; choir members and chanters often will not take advantage of things like the SMI offered by the AANA (though geography is an issue) or even lessons/advice from experienced choristers and chanters.  Too many people (and I suppose that goes for me too) are just set in their way of "doing" Liturgy whether it's good or not.  But, whenever the Scriptures are proclaimed to the people, great care should be given to ensure that what is proclaimed is done with the greatest pastoral care for the people who hear it.

The issue is not about women reading the epistle. The issue is about laymen reading the epistle. Women can't be ordained as readers but IMO any non-ordained shouldn't be reading it.

I concur with this, but I know in my parish, it will be a losing battle.  People will claim that it's a power grab.
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« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2014, 07:17:59 PM »

The issue is not about women reading the epistle. The issue is about laymen reading the epistle. Women can't be ordained as readers but IMO any non-ordained shouldn't be reading it.

It is desirable, but not essential, that someone be a tonsured reader to read the Epistle.

There are many epistle readers the world over who are not tonsured, but read the Epistle week in, week out, with the full approval of their hierarchy. In my 50 years in the church, across several jurisdictions and ethnicities, perhaps two or three of the epistle readers were tonsured.
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« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2014, 07:23:22 PM »

The issue is not about women reading the epistle. The issue is about laymen reading the epistle. Women can't be ordained as readers but IMO any non-ordained shouldn't be reading it.

this sounds nice and conciliatory, but it doesn't really reflect traditional belief or practice. Even lay men have certain roles or privileges that lay women do not have from what I've seen.
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« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2014, 07:27:50 PM »

The issue is not about women reading the epistle. The issue is about laymen reading the epistle. Women can't be ordained as readers but IMO any non-ordained shouldn't be reading it.

It is desirable, but not essential, that someone be a tonsured reader to read the Epistle.

There are many epistle readers the world over who are not tonsured, but read the Epistle week in, week out, with the full approval of their hierarchy. In my 50 years in the church, across several jurisdictions and ethnicities, perhaps two or three of the epistle readers were tonsured.

A tolerated abuse is still an abuse. 
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« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2014, 07:28:23 PM »

Even lay men have certain roles or privileges that lay women do not have from what I've seen.

Such as?
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« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2014, 07:29:32 PM »

Even lay men have certain roles or privileges that lay women do not have from what I've seen.

Such as?

The babies enter the altar during churching.
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« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2014, 07:35:50 PM »

The babies enter the altar during churching.

I'm not sure that's the best, precedent-setting example, but I will concede that such a practice exists. 

Did you have anything else in mind?  I'm particularly interested in "certain roles", but "privileges" will also work.   
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« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2014, 07:48:48 PM »

Here is a question:

During the history of Byzantium there were several female monarchs.   Empress Irene comes to mind.

During the Royal Hours, did she enter the altar with a gift?
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« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2014, 07:55:49 PM »

The babies enter the altar during churching.

I'm not sure that's the best, precedent-setting example, but I will concede that such a practice exists. 

Did you have anything else in mind?  I'm particularly interested in "certain roles", but "privileges" will also work.   

They can be altar servers. They are blessed much more frequently to enter the altar than women for various things, such as telling the priest that all the koliva got eaten. I was also thinking of the belief that the husband is the spiritual head of the household, and I assume that would mean that he would lead prayers in the home.
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« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2014, 08:03:16 PM »

The issue is not about women reading the epistle. The issue is about laymen reading the epistle. Women can't be ordained as readers but IMO any non-ordained shouldn't be reading it.

It is desirable, but not essential, that someone be a tonsured reader to read the Epistle.

There are many epistle readers the world over who are not tonsured, but read the Epistle week in, week out, with the full approval of their hierarchy. In my 50 years in the church, across several jurisdictions and ethnicities, perhaps two or three of the epistle readers were tonsured.

A tolerated abuse is still an abuse. 

+1
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« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2014, 08:58:36 PM »

The issue is not about women reading the epistle. The issue is about laymen reading the epistle. Women can't be ordained as readers but IMO any non-ordained shouldn't be reading it.

It is desirable, but not essential, that someone be a tonsured reader to read the Epistle.

There are many epistle readers the world over who are not tonsured, but read the Epistle week in, week out, with the full approval of their hierarchy. In my 50 years in the church, across several jurisdictions and ethnicities, perhaps two or three of the epistle readers were tonsured.

A tolerated abuse is still an abuse. 

+1

+2  I rank that saying up there with "Silence implies consent".
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« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2014, 09:54:15 PM »

I have just posted a new thread in the Faith section. This thread about the epistle concerns only 1 problem I have encountered. I have addressed my entire dilemma in the new thread, please post your responses, as I would like to hear them.
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« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2014, 10:42:35 PM »

The issue is not about women reading the epistle. The issue is about laymen reading the epistle. Women can't be ordained as readers but IMO any non-ordained shouldn't be reading it.

It is desirable, but not essential, that someone be a tonsured reader to read the Epistle.

There are many epistle readers the world over who are not tonsured, but read the Epistle week in, week out, with the full approval of their hierarchy. In my 50 years in the church, across several jurisdictions and ethnicities, perhaps two or three of the epistle readers were tonsured.

Amen.
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« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2014, 10:55:11 PM »

The issue is not about women reading the epistle. The issue is about laymen reading the epistle. Women can't be ordained as readers but IMO any non-ordained shouldn't be reading it.

It is desirable, but not essential, that someone be a tonsured reader to read the Epistle.

There are many epistle readers the world over who are not tonsured, but read the Epistle week in, week out, with the full approval of their hierarchy. In my 50 years in the church, across several jurisdictions and ethnicities, perhaps two or three of the epistle readers were tonsured.

A tolerated abuse is still an abuse. 

+1

+2  I rank that saying up there with "Silence implies consent".

+3
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« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2014, 11:43:32 PM »

how depressed a person becomes when they struggle to find Orthodoxy!

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« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2014, 12:49:30 AM »

Every so often, we have the teens in the parish do the epistle reading. Some of them are girls.  I never gave it a second thought. I figure what is being read is more important than who is reading it.
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« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2014, 12:51:36 AM »

how depressed a person becomes when they struggle to find Orthodoxy!

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find it?   Are you not already Orthodox?
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« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2014, 06:14:04 AM »

what i mean by find it, is what Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov meant when he said he used to despair because he couldnt find any orthodox monks who practised orthodox ascetism correctly
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« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2014, 07:14:42 AM »

And to end it all off, i want to quote this:
"We know where the Church is but we cannot be sure where it is not; and so we must refrain from passing judgment on non-Orthodox Christians."

I dont anticipate logging back in until a looong time, maybe never. Not that anyone has offended me or anything. But i really have work to tend to.
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« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2014, 08:06:24 AM »

my last post, i promise. Let's forget the bad, and think about the jewel which is orthodoxy.

this is antiochian. this is canonical. this is orthodox.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6K-u6UYSjpY

Taking down of Jesus from the Cross -

Glory to the Father, and the Son, and the Holy
Spirit both now and ever and unto ages of
ages. Amen

Thou who art clothed with light as a garment,
when Joseph together with Nicodemus took
Thee down from the Tree and he gazed
upon Thee dead, naked and unburied, and
in grief and mourning he lamented:
Woe is me, my sweetest Jesus! A short while
ago, the sun beheld Thee hanging on the
Cross and it shrouded itself in darkness. The
earth quaked in fear. The veil of the temple
was torn. Now I see Thee willingly submitting
to death for my sake. How shall I bury Thee,
O my God? How can I wrap Thee with
windings sheets? How can I touch Thy most
pure body with my hands? What songs shall
I hymn thy departure, O compassionate one?
I magnify Thy Passion. I glorify Thy Burial
and Thy Holy Resurrection, crying:
O Lord, Glory to Thee!
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« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2014, 10:20:24 AM »

Before people start going all around in circles with the 'this is never acceptable anywhere ever ever' nonsense....might want to keep in mind that there are indeed places where having young women read the epistle is a tradition.

see below for just -two- of the many links I could have given you.

http://www.serborth.org/02182014.html

http://www.easterndiocese.org/news_140326_1.html
His Grace Bishop Dr.MITROPHAN said it was good to see teachers at the Deanery meetings. His Grace encouraged involving the boys as altar servers and girls to read the Epistle. His Grace said to teach and to live what is taught.

and frankly...I will vote that you all are nuts and overreaching then I will him....any darn day of the week.


Because honestly....you all tell prospective converts that you cannot make Orthodoxy into what -you personally- want...

and then you spend quite a large percentage of your time arguing and doing just that.....find someplace that agrees with you and break away....


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« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2014, 10:22:06 AM »

Oh snap!  The girl with naturally curly hair told ya'll!  Kiss
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« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2014, 10:31:23 AM »

Before people start going all around in circles with the 'this is never acceptable anywhere ever ever' nonsense....might want to keep in mind that there are indeed places where having young women read the epistle is a tradition.

see below for just -two- of the many links I could have given you.

http://www.serborth.org/02182014.html

http://www.easterndiocese.org/news_140326_1.html
His Grace Bishop Dr.MITROPHAN said it was good to see teachers at the Deanery meetings. His Grace encouraged involving the boys as altar servers and girls to read the Epistle. His Grace said to teach and to live what is taught.

and frankly...I will vote that you all are nuts and overreaching then I will him....any darn day of the week.


Because honestly....you all tell prospective converts that you cannot make Orthodoxy into what -you personally- want...

and then you spend quite a large percentage of your time arguing and doing just that.....find someplace that agrees with you and break away....

Now, why'd you go and ruin it for all the Serbian Orthodox folk? Angry Grin
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« Reply #40 on: May 14, 2014, 10:32:06 AM »

Before people start going all around in circles with the 'this is never acceptable anywhere ever ever' nonsense....might want to keep in mind that there are indeed places where having young women read the epistle is a tradition.

see below for just -two- of the many links I could have given you.

http://www.serborth.org/02182014.html

http://www.easterndiocese.org/news_140326_1.html
His Grace Bishop Dr.MITROPHAN said it was good to see teachers at the Deanery meetings. His Grace encouraged involving the boys as altar servers and girls to read the Epistle. His Grace said to teach and to live what is taught.

and frankly...I will vote that you all are nuts and overreaching then I will him....any darn day of the week.


Because honestly....you all tell prospective converts that you cannot make Orthodoxy into what -you personally- want...

and then you spend quite a large percentage of your time arguing and doing just that.....find someplace that agrees with you and break away....




Don't despair.  Regardless of subject matter, the internet is full of false bravado posted by folks  who would never make eye contact with you in real life, let alone say what they post. Orthodoxy is no exception.

True and serious conversations are rare online and when they occur, they more often than not are problematic and perhaps, dare I say it, not well grounded.  Many " talk the talk" but like St. Paul says , they appear to be lacking love in their hearts, hence they are but a clanging gong.... Perhaps that is harsh, but if not, one might easily fail to grasp the true richness and cultural diversity of the Orthodox Faith if one were to solely judge it from the angry, judgmental, rigid, legalistic box many sincere posters try to wrap it in.

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« Reply #41 on: May 14, 2014, 10:38:06 AM »

Oh I am not despairing.

Just slightly sad that it seems that the forest is lost for the trees. 

At least here. And yes it's the internet. BUT, unless everyone here is just pretending, people are still Orthodox Christians.

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« Reply #42 on: May 14, 2014, 11:10:39 AM »

It's not about saying that women have no role in the church, but having the right understanding of what that role is. From my experience in traditionalist Orthodox churches, that role includes all sorts of stuff, such as baking prosphora, artos and fanouropita and cooking koliva, preparing flowers and decorations, cleaning the church and vestments, cooking agape meals, teaching Sunday school and Greek school to the children and much else. This is all necessary work and the church would not be able to function without them. Sure, these are humble and background roles: the women don't get to stand up in front of everyone and read the epistle and otherwise advertise their presence, and I can certainly see why some women would think they "deserve" more than the traditional roles. But then that gets us to the nub of the problem, which is pride, which is the antithesis of what Orthodoxy is about.

I also get the impression at the traditional churches I've been to that both men and women are content with the roles assigned to them. What makes it work is love we show each other and the respect we give to each of our duties, however humble or exalted.

EDIT: I absolutely forgot the Philoptochos! Women play a disproportionate role in almsgiving, one of the three pillars of Orthodox praxis alongside prayer and fasting.
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« Reply #43 on: May 14, 2014, 11:13:29 AM »

It's not about saying that women have no role in the church, but having the right understanding of what that role is. From my experience in traditionalist Orthodox churches, that role includes all sorts of stuff, such as baking prosphora, artos and fanouropita and cooking koliva, preparing flowers and decorations, cleaning the church and vestments, cooking agape meals, teaching Sunday school and Greek school to the children and much else. This is all necessary work and the church would not be able to function without them. Sure, these are humble and background roles: the women don't get to stand up in front of everyone and read the epistle and otherwise advertise their presence, and I can certainly see why some women would think they "deserve" more than the traditional roles. But then that gets us to the nub of the problem, which is pride, which is the antithesis of what Orthodoxy is about.

I also get the impression at the traditional churches I've been to that both men and women are content with the roles assigned to them. What makes it work is love we show each other and the respect we give to each of our duties, however humble or exalted.

I am leaving your whole quote...but honestly the part in orange is PURE speculation on your part.  Unless as has been suggested of others, you are also a mind reader and can thus understand the motivation of others........


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« Reply #44 on: May 14, 2014, 11:17:41 AM »

It's not about saying that women have no role in the church, but having the right understanding of what that role is. From my experience in traditionalist Orthodox churches, that role includes all sorts of stuff, such as baking prosphora, artos and fanouropita and cooking koliva, preparing flowers and decorations, cleaning the church and vestments, cooking agape meals, teaching Sunday school and Greek school to the children and much else. This is all necessary work and the church would not be able to function without them. Sure, these are humble and background roles: the women don't get to stand up in front of everyone and read the epistle and otherwise advertise their presence, and I can certainly see why some women would think they "deserve" more than the traditional roles. But then that gets us to the nub of the problem, which is pride, which is the antithesis of what Orthodoxy is about.

I also get the impression at the traditional churches I've been to that both men and women are content with the roles assigned to them. What makes it work is love we show each other and the respect we give to each of our duties, however humble or exalted.

I am leaving your whole quote...but honestly the part in orange is PURE speculation on your part.  Unless as has been suggested of others, you are also a mind reader and can thus understand the motivation of others........




Only you know the answer, but I honestly believe this is the underlying motivation for all the talk of "inclusiveness" and the apportioning of male roles in the church to females without necessity. If it weren't for pride, we would be content to accept the roles given to us by tradition as it's been handed down to us.
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