OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 20, 2014, 05:14:55 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Nicene Creed - "And I believe in..."  (Read 1780 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Nephi
Monster Tamer
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-Chalcedonian Byzantine
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,682



« on: May 11, 2014, 12:31:38 AM »

Hey all, why is it that some traditions (I assume) vary regarding this point of the liturgical recitation of the creed?

For example, at my home Antiochian parish, it goes like this:

Quote
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;
And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-begotten, Begotten of the Father before all ages, Light of Light, True God of True God, Begotten, not made, of one essence with the Father, by Whom all things were made:
Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and was made man;
And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried;
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures;
And ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of the Father;
And He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, Whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and Giver of Life, Who proceedeth from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke by the Prophets;
And I believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins.
I look for the Resurrection of the dead,
And the Life of the age to come. Amen.

But at the OCA parish I attend it goes like this:

Quote
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of light;
true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by Whom all things were made;
Who for us men and for our salvation came down from Heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man.
And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried.
And the third day He arose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father;
and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; Whose Kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father; Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; Who spoke by the prophets.
In one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins.
I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

The original Greek doesn't seem to have the "And I believe in,' so what's the reason for it having been added? Is it an English-only addition?

And yes, I know it's a small and insignificant thing, but I'm curious nonetheless. Smiley
Logged
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,639


WWW
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2014, 12:43:47 AM »

Those "And I believe" statements may have been added for individual emphasis for they surely don't exist in Greek.
Logged
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: I'm Greek and proud of it, damn it!
Posts: 6,239



« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2014, 07:25:52 AM »

Greek is a very economical language.  The word for I believe is only found at the very beginning of the creed and the rest of the "verbs" in English are actually participles in Greek. 
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
DeniseDenise
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,570


« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2014, 11:24:27 AM »

and thus the English version, that mirrors that sentence structure (because the 'and in' refers to 'I believe' each time) is also fine.
Logged
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,601



« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2014, 10:08:08 PM »

Antiochians never tire of introducing innovations and don't catechize at all, so they threw in some relatively easily remembered stock phrases so their parishioners could catch up with the written text after being distracted by hair falling all over place.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
isaelie
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 140



« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2014, 12:42:49 AM »

translation no doubt, bcos we all use the same creed. Im guessing the best source would be the greek
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,896


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2014, 01:16:39 AM »

Locked pending moderator team review
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,896


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2014, 02:31:18 AM »

Thread now unlocked after the mod team took control of the reason why I locked it.
Logged
Nephi
Monster Tamer
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-Chalcedonian Byzantine
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,682



« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2014, 03:28:34 AM »

Filioque tangent split off and may be found here.
Logged
Basil 320
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,081



« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2014, 07:12:21 AM »

And "I believe" in the Holy Spirit...

And "I believe" in One, Holy, Catholic...

For whatever reason, the additional "I believes" were in the early English language translations of the "Symbol of Faith." This translation's use was not limited to the AOCANA; it was the same in the GOANSA translation published in the 1950's and carried over into other translations until some time in the '80's, from what I've noticed. There is no theological reason for the inclusion of "I believe" at those points, as the original Creed begins with "I believe..." I would bet it was in all of the English language translations within each North American ecclesial jurisdiction until the 1970's (+/-).

My guess is that its source is of some "brilliance" by the translator to restate "I believe" for emphasis, or as a reminder that this is what we "believe." I notice a lot of the translators certainly have to know better when they use terms that are not direct translations, but the translator feels the words they use offer "better" meaning to the contemporary American English language speakers of the intent of the Greek words. (I completely disagree with this logic, and feel it is the source of many lousy translations.)

The important thing to note is that the additional "I believes" are not of the original Greek version of the Symbol of Faith and should not be included in an English language translation.

________________________________________________

Here's a few more ridiculously translated liturgical words that have become commonly used in the GOAA because of their use in the most commonly used English translation, which was published by Holy Cross Orthodox Press in the mid-1980's, that stick in my craw. The translators do not need a Greek illiterate like me to tell them their translations of these two words are absurd. "Afesin" as in "In one baptism for the remission (afesin) of sins;" the HC translation throughout the Liturgy uses "forgiveness" instead of the proper term, "remission." My guess is, some genius convinced his fellow translators that many contemporary folk do not understand "remission," but would be more likely to understand "forgiveness." The logic is nonsense, if that is the logic. At the end of the Liturgy the HC translation uses "depart," rather than the accurate "go forth," for "proelthomen." The Greek term means going forth, going forward, not leaving, or departing. More another time...
« Last Edit: May 15, 2014, 07:17:05 AM by Basil 320 » Logged

"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
zaphod
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 50


« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2014, 04:47:18 AM »

Ancient Greeks were comfortable with sentences that ramble on and on and on. In English, we're not comfortable with that. You find the same thing in the bible. Paul rambles on with sentences that go on forever, but most English translations break it up into several sentences.
Logged
ilyazhito
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 928



« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2014, 11:25:37 PM »

Even though ROCOR uses KJV diction for the creed, it still says, "And in the Holy Spirit...", "in one holy,...". What's the real reason to repeat, because neither the Greek nor the Slavonic repeat?
Logged
Basil 320
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,081



« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2014, 01:35:24 AM »

Even though ROCOR uses KJV diction for the creed, it still says, "And in the Holy Spirit...", "in one holy,...". What's the real reason to repeat, because neither the Greek nor the Slavonic repeat?

There is no reason. I think an early translator did it for some reason, maybe he felt it made the sentence more complete, and other early English language translators mimicked it without giving it any though; just my guess because there is no apparent logic to it.
Logged

"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
genesisone
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,519



« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2014, 07:19:58 PM »

Even though ROCOR uses KJV diction for the creed, it still says, "And in the Holy Spirit...", "in one holy,...". What's the real reason to repeat, because neither the Greek nor the Slavonic repeat?
Because most of us English speakers understand better when the translation uses ordinary English grammatical structures.
Logged
Gunnarr
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,781



« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2014, 12:37:43 AM »

Ancient Greeks were comfortable with sentences that ramble on and on and on. In English, we're not comfortable with that. You find the same thing in the bible. Paul rambles on with sentences that go on forever, but most English translations break it up into several sentences.

I noticing this with people who speak greek, when speaking english they have no breaks!
Logged

I am a demonic servant! Beware!
Chrismated
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Russian Orthodox
Posts: 68


« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2014, 02:35:02 PM »

One would think the Nicene Creed was the Bible. It's is a very well conceived Creed, and states the Orthodox Faith well. Some of the few WR Churches in ROCOR, use the version which is in the BCP (minus the filioque). It is very similar to the others posted on this forum. When I read either version, with it's "And I Believe in...'s", or lack of them, I get the same meaning for what is being said. To me it is kind of being nit-picky to say one is not as good or proper as the other. In this particular case, if it works for the worshiper and the Metropolitan, and your Bishop approves of it, then use it, of it doesn't, then don't. The one using the version that we don't, is he or she less reverent or less "holy" or less Orthodox because of it? I think not. 
Logged
Tags: The Creed 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.067 seconds with 42 queries.