OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 18, 2014, 05:53:43 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Contraception  (Read 1972 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Anastasia1
My warrior name is Beyoncé Pad Thai
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Occasionally traveling, Armenian.
Posts: 1,186



« on: May 07, 2014, 06:39:24 PM »

Is contraception something that necessarily results in objectification?
Logged

Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. (2 Cor 2:6)
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,419


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2014, 11:52:50 PM »

It does carry that risk.
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,615



« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2014, 12:10:15 AM »

It does carry that risk.
So does procreation.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,885


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2014, 01:57:35 AM »

What about foot washing?
Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"You are philosophical innovators. As for me, I follow the Fathers." -Every heresiarch ever
Gebre Menfes Kidus
"SERVANT of The HOLY SPIRIT"
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Ethiopian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Tewahedo / Non-Chalcedonian
Posts: 8,286


"Lord Have Mercy on Me a Sinner!"


WWW
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2014, 02:07:10 AM »

Here's something I wrote about the subject of birth control:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,52495.0.html


Selam

Logged

"If we are unwilling to accept any truth that we have not first discovered and declared ourselves, we demonstrate that we are interested not in the truth so much as in being right." ~ Thomas Merton ~
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,615



« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2014, 07:38:17 AM »

What about foot washing?
It has no contraceptive effect.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,817



« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2014, 07:59:08 AM »

What about foot washing?
It has no contraceptive effect.

Actually for some it might be the contraceptive that has the highest success rate. So I have experienced.

Though I think he was making a comment regarding objectification and not contraception...
Logged

Yes, yes, youth is wasted on the young. And so is accumulated experience wasted on the old, the positives of modernism wasted on moderns, the beauty of Christianity wasted on Christians, the utility of scholarship wasted on scholars, and on and on.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,419


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2014, 08:02:16 AM »

It does carry that risk.
So does procreation.
Objectifying a spouse and hating one's kids isn't the same thing Tongue
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 08:02:55 AM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,615



« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2014, 08:07:51 AM »

It does carry that risk.
So does procreation.
Objectifying a spouse and hating one's kids isn't the same thing Tongue
Neither is marrying just to have a mechanism to have children, (And plenty of that goes on)-or is it intending objectification different from it resulting in objectification?
And children can be objectified as well. And using contraception doesn't necessarily involve hating your kids.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 08:11:42 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Orest
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 976


« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2014, 08:52:39 AM »

Here's something I wrote about the subject of birth control:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,52495.0.html


Selam


You wrote it & it is your personal opinion NOT the statement of the Orthodox Church.
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,191


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2014, 09:00:27 AM »

Do OO clergy allow their flock to use contraception?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,615



« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2014, 09:02:27 AM »

Do OO clergy allow their flock to use contraception?
Yes (at least the Copts).  I remember a Western journalist confronting a monk running a family clinic that dispensed contraceptives, on the problem of a minority not procreating.  The monk smiled and laughed, before saying he was worried about quality, not quantity.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 09:04:40 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,419


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2014, 10:10:10 AM »

It does carry that risk.
So does procreation.
Objectifying a spouse and hating one's kids isn't the same thing Tongue
Neither is marrying just to have a mechanism to have children, (And plenty of that goes on)-or is it intending objectification different from it resulting in objectification?
And children can be objectified as well. And using contraception doesn't necessarily involve hating your kids.
it was a bad joke Isa Tongue
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,615



« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2014, 10:12:57 AM »

It does carry that risk.
So does procreation.
Objectifying a spouse and hating one's kids isn't the same thing Tongue
Neither is marrying just to have a mechanism to have children, (And plenty of that goes on)-or is it intending objectification different from it resulting in objectification?
And children can be objectified as well. And using contraception doesn't necessarily involve hating your kids.
it was a bad joke Isa Tongue
and I gave good commentary.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Alveus Lacuna
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,883



« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2014, 11:00:16 AM »

Do OO clergy allow their flock to use contraception?

Some do, as others noted specifically some Copts. Many are opposed, and again I voice as an Orthodox Christian my opposition to artificial birth control. There are many traditional Orthodox who oppose this anti-culture of death.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 11:01:57 AM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,615



« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2014, 11:02:31 AM »

Do OO clergy allow their flock to use contraception?

Some do, as others noted specifically some Copts. Many are opposed, and again I voice as an Orthodox Christian my opposition to artificial birth control. There are many traditional Orthodox who oppose this culture of death.
Not all of them oppose contraception, nor adopt the artificial category of "Artificial Birth Control."
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,419


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2014, 11:09:30 AM »

It does carry that risk.
So does procreation.
Objectifying a spouse and hating one's kids isn't the same thing Tongue
Neither is marrying just to have a mechanism to have children, (And plenty of that goes on)-or is it intending objectification different from it resulting in objectification?
And children can be objectified as well. And using contraception doesn't necessarily involve hating your kids.
it was a bad joke Isa Tongue
and I gave good commentary.
commentary to my bad joke?  Just don't take it seriously lol
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Alveus Lacuna
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,883



« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2014, 11:10:21 AM »

Not all of them oppose contraception, nor adopt the artificial category of "Artificial Birth Control."

I said "many", you said "all". I just want Papist to know that not all Orthodox have totally sold out on this issue, although even I admit there tends to be more nuance to the Orthodox dealing with this.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,615



« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2014, 11:14:24 AM »

Not all of them oppose contraception, nor adopt the artificial category of "Artificial Birth Control."

I said "many", you said "all". I just want Papist to know that not all Orthodox have totally sold out on this issue, although even I admit there tends to be more nuance to the Orthodox dealing with this.
define "sold out."
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Alveus Lacuna
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,883



« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2014, 11:52:21 AM »

define "sold out."

I know your opinions on this, and I don't agree. But it's abstract for you, personal for me. So we don't need to go further.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,615



« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2014, 11:55:30 AM »

define "sold out."

I know your opinions on this, and I don't agree. But it's abstract for you, personal for me. So we don't need to go further.
It is utterly abstract for the Vatican.  and not totally abstract for me-I have two teenage sons.

if you are going to use terms like "sold out," you are have to go further into defining what you mean.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Alveus Lacuna
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,883



« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2014, 12:00:03 PM »

if you are going to use terms like "sold out," you are have to go further into defining what you mean.

Nope. It's an internet forum. I'm only obligated to be as involved as I want to be.

The vague and unqualified patristic concensus is that abortion and contraception are wrong. Two lungs of the same dead culture.
Logged
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,927


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #22 on: May 08, 2014, 12:06:49 PM »

Is contraception something that necessarily results in objectification?

I suppose it depends upon whether or not you believe the sole purpose of sex inside of the bonds of Holy Matrimony is procreation.  I don't believe that it is, and thankfully, neither does my Church.  Here are some contemporary Coptic commentaries on this issue:

http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=23&catid=52
http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=1355&catid=567
http://lacopts.org/articles/family-planning/
Logged

“Nothing is better than to realize one’s weakness and ignorance and nothing is worse than not to be aware of them.” - St. Peter of Damascus
Alveus Lacuna
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,883



« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2014, 12:33:52 PM »

Quote from: Antonious Nikolas link=topic=58193.msg1118387#msg1118387 date=1399565209http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=23&catid=52
[url

Overpopulation? Yeah, the world is just overrun with Copts.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,615



« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2014, 12:54:48 PM »

if you are going to use terms like "sold out," you are have to go further into defining what you mean.

Nope. It's an internet forum. I'm only obligated to be as involved as I want to be.
No one said otherwise.  Your posts will be judged accordingly.
The vague and unqualified patristic concensus is that abortion and contraception are wrong. Two lungs of the same dead culture.
Your two sentences, given the Vatican's HV, contradict each other.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,927


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2014, 03:23:55 PM »

Overpopulation? Yeah, the world is just overrun with Copts.

You're funny. Do you think that's what the hierarchy had in mind?  Copts as a percentage of the global population?  Or perhaps it was a pastoral concern for individual families - such as poor Sai'di farmers or Zabbaleen - who couldn't afford another mouth to feed?

Again, sex within marriage is not exclusively linked to procreation and sex that is not tied to procreation is not an evil thing.  It serves other functions blessed and sanctioned by the Church.
Logged

“Nothing is better than to realize one’s weakness and ignorance and nothing is worse than not to be aware of them.” - St. Peter of Damascus
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,419


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2014, 04:04:47 PM »

Is contraception something that necessarily results in objectification?

I suppose it depends upon whether or not you believe the sole purpose of sex inside of the bonds of Holy Matrimony is procreation.  I don't believe that it is, and thankfully, neither does my Church.  Here are some contemporary Coptic commentaries on this issue:

http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=23&catid=52
http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=1355&catid=567
http://lacopts.org/articles/family-planning/

I think we need to stress though that just because the church allows contraception doesn't mean it should be a regular encouragement of use.

Speaking seriously to Isa's previous mention of marriage carrying a risk of objectification, I agree.  However the difference is this.  If one marries merely because that person is hot and probably going to lead to a great sex life, that marriage is at a high risk of failure.  We know marriage is more than just sex. We also know that marriage is more than just children.  I believe we should interpret the Coptic stance as, it's not wrong to use contraceptive, but a couple should also practice some ascetism as well in their lives.  That is why even after marriage, although for good reasons a couple may have married, contraceptives can still hold that risk of objectification, and then it becomes a bit problematic in spiritual lives.
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Stavro
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,161



« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2014, 04:30:31 PM »

Quote
I remember a Western journalist confronting a monk running a family clinic that dispensed contraceptives, on the problem of a minority not procreating.

Where is this family clinic?
Logged

In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. (Isaiah 19:19)

" God forbid I should see the face of Judah or listen to his blasphemy" (Gerontius, Archmanidrite of the monastery of St. Melania)
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,927


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2014, 05:22:38 PM »

I think we need to stress though that just because the church allows contraception doesn't mean it should be a regular encouragement of use.

Speaking seriously to Isa's previous mention of marriage carrying a risk of objectification, I agree.  However the difference is this.  If one marries merely because that person is hot and probably going to lead to a great sex life, that marriage is at a high risk of failure.  We know marriage is more than just sex. We also know that marriage is more than just children.  I believe we should interpret the Coptic stance as, it's not wrong to use contraceptive, but a couple should also practice some ascetism as well in their lives.  That is why even after marriage, although for good reasons a couple may have married, contraceptives can still hold that risk of objectification, and then it becomes a bit problematic in spiritual lives.

I can agree with this, but it is possible to desire intimacy - physical, spiritual, emotional, et cetera - with one's spouse without objectifying her or him.  The idea that sex is somehow a necessary evil tolerated because it leads to the conception of children is - to my understanding at least - a Western neurosis.  I don't believe that a couple that has fertility issues, for example, and cannot conceive children, should be living together strictly as brother and sister.  I agree very much, however, that Orthodox couples should practice some asceticism together, especially during the fasting periods the Church ordains for our lives.
Logged

“Nothing is better than to realize one’s weakness and ignorance and nothing is worse than not to be aware of them.” - St. Peter of Damascus
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,419


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2014, 07:19:45 PM »

I think we need to stress though that just because the church allows contraception doesn't mean it should be a regular encouragement of use.

Speaking seriously to Isa's previous mention of marriage carrying a risk of objectification, I agree.  However the difference is this.  If one marries merely because that person is hot and probably going to lead to a great sex life, that marriage is at a high risk of failure.  We know marriage is more than just sex. We also know that marriage is more than just children.  I believe we should interpret the Coptic stance as, it's not wrong to use contraceptive, but a couple should also practice some ascetism as well in their lives.  That is why even after marriage, although for good reasons a couple may have married, contraceptives can still hold that risk of objectification, and then it becomes a bit problematic in spiritual lives.

I can agree with this, but it is possible to desire intimacy - physical, spiritual, emotional, et cetera - with one's spouse without objectifying her or him.  The idea that sex is somehow a necessary evil tolerated because it leads to the conception of children is - to my understanding at least - a Western neurosis.  I don't believe that a couple that has fertility issues, for example, and cannot conceive children, should be living together strictly as brother and sister.  I agree very much, however, that Orthodox couples should practice some asceticism together, especially during the fasting periods the Church ordains for our lives.

While it may be true that there was a Western issue of seeing sex as an evil due to propagation of Original Sin, I will have to say that it is possible a more nuanced Roman Catholic approach and some EOs I hear would probably be that sex, while not evil, came as a result of the Fall, and thus needed to be used in a regulated manner, like food, ideally.

We do also have to mention briefly that there is still a remnant of that "Western neurosis" when people still practice the 40/80 rule of churching, where the reason for the 80 days is because a woman gave birth to a woman who will give birth to more babies "in sin", and thus the "double" time for churching.  So we need to clean house on that first and clarify our practices.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 07:20:26 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,927


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2014, 08:08:40 PM »

While it may be true that there was a Western issue of seeing sex as an evil due to propagation of Original Sin, I will have to say that it is possible a more nuanced Roman Catholic approach and some EOs I hear would probably be that sex, while not evil, came as a result of the Fall, and thus needed to be used in a regulated manner, like food, ideally.

Sure, everything in moderation.

My perception of sex within marriage - as formed by my previous and current fathers of confession, as well as an older OCA priest I really, really respect - runs pretty much as follows: everything within the marriage - including sex - should be sacramental and holy.  I don't feel "bad" or "dirty" if I have a natural desire for my wife like some self-flagellating, cilice-wearing weirdo.

I agree with Fr. Josiah Trenham that while sex did not exist before the Fall, it can be good if used according to God's design, which does not necessarily mean strictly for procreation.

Quote
sexual relations are good only when used according to God's design. God has designed sexual relations for three basic reasons: to avoid fornication, to unite the husband and wife as a powerful adhesive, and to bring forth children to be raised to worship God and for the upbuilding of the Church...Sexual relations in marriage provide a safe and calm harbor to tame and redirect these unruly passions and desires. Sexual relations are also designed to serve as marital glue. "For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and the two shall become one flesh." The physical union of intercourse is designed to strengthen the marital bond by both enacting a very real physical unity and by producing a child, who is a creation not from only husband or wife alone, buy from both the husband and wife together.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/frjosiah_sexualrelations.aspx

I also like what this article from the Antiochian Church has to say about "Blessed Sexual Love" and hedonistic practices cheapening and undermining "the holiness and sanctity of sex".

http://www.antiochian.org/node/17964

I don't think some people are willing to acknowledge that there is such a thing as the holy, sanctified and blessed sex within marriage the article describes.

We do also have to mention briefly that there is still a remnant of that "Western neurosis" when people still practice the 40/80 rule of churching, where the reason for the 80 days is because a woman gave birth to a woman who will give birth to more babies "in sin", and thus the "double" time for churching.  So we need to clean house on that first and clarify our practices.

I agree.  But I was always taught that the doubling of the time was for a different reason:

http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=7&catid=45
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 08:10:14 PM by Antonious Nikolas » Logged

“Nothing is better than to realize one’s weakness and ignorance and nothing is worse than not to be aware of them.” - St. Peter of Damascus
WPM
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,353



« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2014, 08:14:18 PM »

Is contraception something that necessarily results in objectification?

As a couple you use contraceptive when you don't want a pregnancy.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 08:14:30 PM by WPM » Logged
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,419


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2014, 10:08:33 PM »

While it may be true that there was a Western issue of seeing sex as an evil due to propagation of Original Sin, I will have to say that it is possible a more nuanced Roman Catholic approach and some EOs I hear would probably be that sex, while not evil, came as a result of the Fall, and thus needed to be used in a regulated manner, like food, ideally.

Sure, everything in moderation.

My perception of sex within marriage - as formed by my previous and current fathers of confession, as well as an older OCA priest I really, really respect - runs pretty much as follows: everything within the marriage - including sex - should be sacramental and holy.  I don't feel "bad" or "dirty" if I have a natural desire for my wife like some self-flagellating, cilice-wearing weirdo.

I agree with Fr. Josiah Trenham that while sex did not exist before the Fall, it can be good if used according to God's design, which does not necessarily mean strictly for procreation.

Quote
sexual relations are good only when used according to God's design. God has designed sexual relations for three basic reasons: to avoid fornication, to unite the husband and wife as a powerful adhesive, and to bring forth children to be raised to worship God and for the upbuilding of the Church...Sexual relations in marriage provide a safe and calm harbor to tame and redirect these unruly passions and desires. Sexual relations are also designed to serve as marital glue. "For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and the two shall become one flesh." The physical union of intercourse is designed to strengthen the marital bond by both enacting a very real physical unity and by producing a child, who is a creation not from only husband or wife alone, buy from both the husband and wife together.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/frjosiah_sexualrelations.aspx

I also like what this article from the Antiochian Church has to say about "Blessed Sexual Love" and hedonistic practices cheapening and undermining "the holiness and sanctity of sex".

http://www.antiochian.org/node/17964

I don't think some people are willing to acknowledge that there is such a thing as the holy, sanctified and blessed sex within marriage the article describes.

We do also have to mention briefly that there is still a remnant of that "Western neurosis" when people still practice the 40/80 rule of churching, where the reason for the 80 days is because a woman gave birth to a woman who will give birth to more babies "in sin", and thus the "double" time for churching.  So we need to clean house on that first and clarify our practices.

I agree.  But I was always taught that the doubling of the time was for a different reason:

http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=7&catid=45

Interesting!  I have recently learned of this reason by a blog by a Coptic blogger, Donna Rizk:

http://learnpraylove.com/churching-of-women-and-baptism-4080-days/

After some search, it seems to be that the quoted email she received is actually verbatim from a Protestant commentary on Leviticus!   Undecided

In any case, I recently listened to a podcast with Fr. Josiah, and he seemed to be adamantly against contraception.  He also rebuked any couple who, when getting married, are holding off any plan to have children because "they're not ready".  It seems to me he believes getting children should happen immediately (if possible).  Another interesting tidbit of Fr. Josiah is that he believes eventually in the marriage, a couple should be able to get to a point at their old age where they practice celibacy.

That is not to contradict anything you quoted from Fr. Josiah, but he does hold some other interesting views.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 10:11:20 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-Chalcedonian Chalcedonian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,374



« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2014, 10:16:44 PM »

I honestly have a really hard time believing that sex came about entirely after the Fall.
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 17,072


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2014, 10:19:33 PM »

I honestly have a really hard time believing that sex came about entirely after the Fall.

You're not the only one. 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Anastasia1
My warrior name is Beyoncé Pad Thai
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Occasionally traveling, Armenian.
Posts: 1,186



« Reply #35 on: May 08, 2014, 10:27:36 PM »

There is a discussion elsewhere online where Catholics are arguing that contraception leads to objectification. I wish their was a way to explain easily that they are wrong and have them understand it.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 10:33:52 PM by Anastasia1 » Logged

Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. (2 Cor 2:6)
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-Chalcedonian Chalcedonian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,374



« Reply #36 on: May 08, 2014, 10:28:11 PM »

I honestly have a really hard time believing that sex came about entirely after the Fall.

You're not the only one. 

Kiss

I actually thought I was. Every time I've heard or seen it brought up by Orthodox (EO, I suppose), it was always consistent in saying that sex didn't exist before the Fall and likewise won't exist after the Resurrection. The notion strikes me as a bit Manichean, to which many EO seem inclined to lean toward anyway on these, and other, topics. The somewhat recent episode on Ancient Faith Today talked about this stuff, and I just found it unsatisfying.
Logged
Alveus Lacuna
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,883



« Reply #37 on: May 08, 2014, 10:34:45 PM »

I actually thought I was. Every time I've heard or seen it brought up by Orthodox (EO, I suppose), it was always consistent in saying that sex didn't exist before the Fall and likewise won't exist after the Resurrection. The notion strikes me as a bit Manichean, to which many EO seem inclined to lean toward anyway on these, and other, topics. The somewhat recent episode on Ancient Faith Today talked about this stuff, and I just found it unsatisfying.

I love the saints and I trust them. They're pretty consistent on this stuff as I understand it.
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,817



« Reply #38 on: May 08, 2014, 10:41:05 PM »

Every time I've heard or seen it brought up by Orthodox (EO, I suppose), it was always consistent in saying that sex didn't exist before the Fall and likewise won't exist after the Resurrection.

Commenting on the prelapsarian part, in most discussions I have observed it is only a handful of Fathers who are actually quoted as saying this (St. John of Damascus, St. John Chrysostom, etc.)  I wonder if this is representative of the general thought on the topic or not. I'd be fine with that if that was the general consensus, I'm curious though.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 10:41:33 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

Yes, yes, youth is wasted on the young. And so is accumulated experience wasted on the old, the positives of modernism wasted on moderns, the beauty of Christianity wasted on Christians, the utility of scholarship wasted on scholars, and on and on.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 11,419


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #39 on: May 08, 2014, 10:42:28 PM »

I honestly have a really hard time believing that sex came about entirely after the Fall.

You're not the only one. 

Kiss

I actually thought I was. Every time I've heard or seen it brought up by Orthodox (EO, I suppose), it was always consistent in saying that sex didn't exist before the Fall and likewise won't exist after the Resurrection. The notion strikes me as a bit Manichean, to which many EO seem inclined to lean toward anyway on these, and other, topics. The somewhat recent episode on Ancient Faith Today talked about this stuff, and I just found it unsatisfying.

I don't disagree with you.  There's a danger in Fr. Josiah's thinking, but I sympathize with him because he is pretty much trying to feel consistent with whatever Patristic testimony he did his research from.  The problem is that as you speculate further based on the present understanding of the biological and physiological functions of the human being, you could end up saying in the Kingdom, after the General Resurrection, all of our flesh may never really be needed.  Fr. Josiah mentioned we'll probably rise from the dead without reproductive organs, gastrointestinal organs, or eyelashes (I distinctly remember these particular systems he said, and maybe sweat glands too he also mentioned).  I find it troubling if you take this speculation to a certain extreme.  One of the callers into the program even mentioned that we don't need our eyes in the general resurrection, and so that too will be done away with.

Where does one draw the line?  Beats me!  In heaven we probably don't need our bones, our nerves, our muscles, or our skin, because they only filled a physical purpose in our fallen nature Tongue ...  or maybe the absurdity in all of this does need reevaluation of thinking, and I hope Fr. Josiah would be a bit more informed as to the strange implications of his views.
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,615



« Reply #40 on: May 08, 2014, 10:45:46 PM »

There is a discussion elsewhere online where Catholics are arguing that contraception leads to objectification. I wish their was a way to explain easily that they are wrong and have them understand it.
Plenty of one night stands with strangers end in preganancy-is it more personal and committed because they didn't use birth control?  Or does it not change the objectification a jot?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,615



« Reply #41 on: May 08, 2014, 10:49:34 PM »

While it may be true that there was a Western issue of seeing sex as an evil due to propagation of Original Sin, I will have to say that it is possible a more nuanced Roman Catholic approach and some EOs I hear would probably be that sex, while not evil, came as a result of the Fall, and thus needed to be used in a regulated manner, like food, ideally.

Sure, everything in moderation.

My perception of sex within marriage - as formed by my previous and current fathers of confession, as well as an older OCA priest I really, really respect - runs pretty much as follows: everything within the marriage - including sex - should be sacramental and holy.  I don't feel "bad" or "dirty" if I have a natural desire for my wife like some self-flagellating, cilice-wearing weirdo.

I agree with Fr. Josiah Trenham that while sex did not exist before the Fall, it can be good if used according to God's design, which does not necessarily mean strictly for procreation.

Quote
sexual relations are good only when used according to God's design. God has designed sexual relations for three basic reasons: to avoid fornication, to unite the husband and wife as a powerful adhesive, and to bring forth children to be raised to worship God and for the upbuilding of the Church...Sexual relations in marriage provide a safe and calm harbor to tame and redirect these unruly passions and desires. Sexual relations are also designed to serve as marital glue. "For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and the two shall become one flesh." The physical union of intercourse is designed to strengthen the marital bond by both enacting a very real physical unity and by producing a child, who is a creation not from only husband or wife alone, buy from both the husband and wife together.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/frjosiah_sexualrelations.aspx

I also like what this article from the Antiochian Church has to say about "Blessed Sexual Love" and hedonistic practices cheapening and undermining "the holiness and sanctity of sex".

http://www.antiochian.org/node/17964

I don't think some people are willing to acknowledge that there is such a thing as the holy, sanctified and blessed sex within marriage the article describes.

We do also have to mention briefly that there is still a remnant of that "Western neurosis" when people still practice the 40/80 rule of churching, where the reason for the 80 days is because a woman gave birth to a woman who will give birth to more babies "in sin", and thus the "double" time for churching.  So we need to clean house on that first and clarify our practices.

I agree.  But I was always taught that the doubling of the time was for a different reason:

http://www.suscopts.org/q&a/index.php?qid=7&catid=45

Interesting!  I have recently learned of this reason by a blog by a Coptic blogger, Donna Rizk:

http://learnpraylove.com/churching-of-women-and-baptism-4080-days/

After some search, it seems to be that the quoted email she received is actually verbatim from a Protestant commentary on Leviticus!   Undecided

In any case, I recently listened to a podcast with Fr. Josiah, and he seemed to be adamantly against contraception.  He also rebuked any couple who, when getting married, are holding off any plan to have children because "they're not ready".  It seems to me he believes getting children should happen immediately (if possible).  Another interesting tidbit of Fr. Josiah is that he believes eventually in the marriage, a couple should be able to get to a point at their old age where they practice celibacy.

That is not to contradict anything you quoted from Fr. Josiah, but he does hold some other interesting views.
Some other interesting ideas of Fr. Josiah:
1) ideally homosexuals should enter the monastery.
2) viagra increases libido. I've only seen it claimed that it helps you be able to do something with the libido you have (trials on women to raise there libido with viagra were miserable failures IIRC).
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,615



« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2014, 10:52:55 PM »

I honestly have a really hard time believing that sex came about entirely after the Fall.

You're not the only one. 

Kiss

I actually thought I was. Every time I've heard or seen it brought up by Orthodox (EO, I suppose), it was always consistent in saying that sex didn't exist before the Fall and likewise won't exist after the Resurrection. The notion strikes me as a bit Manichean, to which many EO seem inclined to lean toward anyway on these, and other, topics. The somewhat recent episode on Ancient Faith Today talked about this stuff, and I just found it unsatisfying.

I don't disagree with you.  There's a danger in Fr. Josiah's thinking, but I sympathize with him because he is pretty much trying to feel consistent with whatever Patristic testimony he did his research from.  The problem is that as you speculate further based on the present understanding of the biological and physiological functions of the human being, you could end up saying in the Kingdom, after the General Resurrection, all of our flesh may never really be needed.  Fr. Josiah mentioned we'll probably rise from the dead without reproductive organs, gastrointestinal organs, or eyelashes (I distinctly remember these particular systems he said, and maybe sweat glands too he also mentioned).  I find it troubling if you take this speculation to a certain extreme.  One of the callers into the program even mentioned that we don't need our eyes in the general resurrection, and so that too will be done away with.

Where does one draw the line?  Beats me!  In heaven we probably don't need our bones, our nerves, our muscles, or our skin, because they only filled a physical purpose in our fallen nature Tongue ...  or maybe the absurdity in all of this does need reevaluation of thinking, and I hope Fr. Josiah would be a bit more informed as to the strange implications of his views.
Adam said "bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh," and God made them "male and female," so they had male and female parts in paradise.

What are you listening to from Fr. Josiah?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Nephi
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-Chalcedonian Chalcedonian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,374



« Reply #43 on: May 08, 2014, 10:55:30 PM »

I don't disagree with you.  There's a danger in Fr. Josiah's thinking, but I sympathize with him because he is pretty much trying to feel consistent with whatever Patristic testimony he did his research from.  The problem is that as you speculate further based on the present understanding of the biological and physiological functions of the human being, you could end up saying in the Kingdom, after the General Resurrection, all of our flesh may never really be needed.  Fr. Josiah mentioned we'll probably rise from the dead without reproductive organs, gastrointestinal organs, or eyelashes (I distinctly remember these particular systems he said, and maybe sweat glands too he also mentioned).  I find it troubling if you take this speculation to a certain extreme.  One of the callers into the program even mentioned that we don't need our eyes in the general resurrection, and so that too will be done away with.

Where does one draw the line?  Beats me!  In heaven we probably don't need our bones, our nerves, our muscles, or our skin, because they only filled a physical purpose in our fallen nature Tongue ...  or maybe the absurdity in all of this does need reevaluation of thinking, and I hope Fr. Josiah would be a bit more informed as to the strange implications of his views.

I hadn't even put a whole lot of thought into those implications, but they certainly do open up a whole can of worms. It does end up seeming like our prelapsarian or even post-resurrection flesh is inconsequential at best or a burden at worst. I tend to be inclined to think that God created us as flesh-spirit beings for us to actually be flesh-spirit beings, not merely spirit beings with flesh facade. I remember one comment in that AFT episode was that pre-fall reproduction was possibly done hypostatically. All of this sounds way too dualistic to me, with its constant emphasis of the spiritual over and against the physical in every aspect.

You know, I wonder: should we even draw icons of Christ (or Mary and the saints) without eyes/hair/etc.? I mean, we are depicting the spiritual reality and not merely a fleshly one. Wink
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 10:55:51 PM by Nephi » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,615



« Reply #44 on: May 08, 2014, 10:58:10 PM »

Quote
I remember a Western journalist confronting a monk running a family clinic that dispensed contraceptives, on the problem of a minority not procreating.

Where is this family clinic?

of course.  The monk talked about how the patients were religious, and to secular arguments on the issue they turned a deaf ear.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.174 seconds with 71 queries.