OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 23, 2014, 03:25:21 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: vestments of priest put on laymen...  (Read 2176 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
DeniseDenise
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,387


« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2014, 03:17:48 PM »

based on the picture....that isnt the elderly one....Wink
Logged
Marc1152
Toumarches
************
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Rocor
Posts: 13,092


Probiotic .. Antibiotic


« Reply #46 on: May 09, 2014, 03:40:26 PM »

Met Jona was serving at our Church ( Rocor).. I was tasked with his hand washing while he stood in the Royal Doors and I am just outside. I dose his hands ...but then he flicks the water into my face..

So I am like    WTF... If you don't like me just tell me ...etc. ( not out loud  Smiley

He later explained that after a Bishop washes his hands the water is now sanctified so he was giving me a blessing with Holy Water.... Learn something new ever day.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 03:41:21 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
IXOYE
Site Supporter
High Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 712



« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2014, 05:21:09 PM »

Are you talking about Demetrios Trakatellis? He is the only Greek Orthodox Bishop in Astoria that I know of and he belongs to the EP. Anyway, to get back to the theme of the original post, folding vestments on the back of another person is odd. Was there no table that he could have used. I have occasionally seen vestments folded on the chairs at the high place and on the Bishop's Throne, if he was not using it. Deacons and servers would use ledges or tables to fold their vestments, and when a bishop is vested, the vestments are on a table or tray and are folded. When he unvests, vestments are also folded on a table in reverse order.

No, not the GOA Archbishop.  Bp. Demetrios has only been a bishop for about two years for the Greeks, and was recently elected to replace Met. Pavlos S. of Astoria, NY.  They are in communion with Abp. Demetrios T. indirectly.

There were plenty of tables.  Like I said, it looked like a hero worship type of thing, as the people flock to Bp. Demetrios as if he is the last of the elders in Orthodoxy.  Ofcourse, there must be some kind of blessing, otherwise I don't see any justification for it, unless someone can come forward with examples from holy fathers and saints doing the same?


I’m sending you a P.M., Cyrus.
Logged
Cyrus
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Christian
Posts: 40


« Reply #48 on: May 09, 2014, 05:50:36 PM »

Well, I've seen something maybe a bit similar, but with "usual" priest, in Moldova.
Right after Liturgy the priest came out from the iconostasis and started putting out his vestments and laying them down on on the faithful that had gathered before him. After that he read some prayers and took the vestments. We were said it's a rite for people that are ill (probably not only physically, but also spiritually). I think it has something to do with this bleeding woman from the Gospel, who caught Christ's robe and was healed.

Here is the picture of what I've been witness:




I've heard something similar is done in Pochayaveska Lavra (or anotehr famous Ukrainian Orthodox monastery), but mabye really only with a bishop, I don't remember.

Yes, this is it.  Thank you so much for sharing.  I knew there must have been some good reason for this, as everyone is sick to some extent.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 05:51:35 PM by Cyrus » Logged
frjohnmorris
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 1,177


« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2014, 01:54:40 AM »

This doesn't seem all that different.

It is. 

Why? I haven't seen that around here but I can imagine it being done. I like that kind of folk piety.

I make no judgement on "this kind" of folk piety, though I like folk piety in general.  But it seems to me that it's one thing to touch/kiss the fringe of a priest's vestments and quite another for him to take them off (even while he still half-wears some) and lay them on the backs of bowing individuals while prayers and blessings are offered.  Among other things, the latter involves the priest doing things with vestments which probably ought not be done.     

That, plus the only time that I have seen the kissing of a priest's vestments has been during the Great Entrance procession in an Antiochian church. I was told that it may be due to a misunderstanding that the gifts had already been consecrated. Or, it can be due to the fact that the Great Entrance represents the entry of the Lord into Jerusalem and the priest/bishop is treated as an icon of Christ.

The Antiochian custom of touching the Priest's vestments during the Great Entrance, comes from the woman who was healed by touching the hem of the robe of Christ.

Fr. John W. Morris.
Logged
LBK
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,168


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #50 on: May 10, 2014, 02:04:14 AM »

This doesn't seem all that different.

It is.  

Why? I haven't seen that around here but I can imagine it being done. I like that kind of folk piety.

I make no judgement on "this kind" of folk piety, though I like folk piety in general.  But it seems to me that it's one thing to touch/kiss the fringe of a priest's vestments and quite another for him to take them off (even while he still half-wears some) and lay them on the backs of bowing individuals while prayers and blessings are offered.  Among other things, the latter involves the priest doing things with vestments which probably ought not be done.      

That, plus the only time that I have seen the kissing of a priest's vestments has been during the Great Entrance procession in an Antiochian church. I was told that it may be due to a misunderstanding that the gifts had already been consecrated. Or, it can be due to the fact that the Great Entrance represents the entry of the Lord into Jerusalem and the priest/bishop is treated as an icon of Christ.

The Antiochian custom of touching the Priest's vestments during the Great Entrance, comes from the woman who was healed by touching the hem of the robe of Christ.

Fr. John W. Morris.

It is not only an Antiochian custom, it is also seen in Greek churches. The Russian version is reaching out and touching the strips of ribbon trailing from the four corners of the plashchanitsa (epitaphion) during its solemn procession from the altar to the nave during Vespers of Great Friday; the priest's vestments are sometimes also touched during this procession, as can also happen during the bringing out of the Cross during the eves of the two feasts of the Cross, during Great Lent and on September 14.

The most likely reason why Russians do not touch the vestments at the Great Entrance is because this procession is conducted from the northern deacon's door, onto the solea, and through the Royal Doors, not down the northern aisle and up the central aisle.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 02:06:30 AM by LBK » Logged
isaelie
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 140



« Reply #51 on: May 15, 2014, 10:19:53 PM »

fish n chips  police
Logged
Gunnarr
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,753



« Reply #52 on: May 31, 2014, 04:37:43 AM »

Reminds me of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_bishop

Quote
Boy bishop was a name given to a custom very widespread in the Middle Ages, whereby a boy was chosen, for example among cathedral choristers, to parody the real bishop, commonly on the feast of Holy Innocents. This custom was linked with others, such as that of the Feast of Fools and the Feast of Asses.
Logged

I am a demonic servant! Beware!
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,882



« Reply #53 on: June 02, 2014, 01:48:41 PM »

This doesn't seem all that different.

It is.  

Why? I haven't seen that around here but I can imagine it being done. I like that kind of folk piety.

I make no judgement on "this kind" of folk piety, though I like folk piety in general.  But it seems to me that it's one thing to touch/kiss the fringe of a priest's vestments and quite another for him to take them off (even while he still half-wears some) and lay them on the backs of bowing individuals while prayers and blessings are offered.  Among other things, the latter involves the priest doing things with vestments which probably ought not be done.      

That, plus the only time that I have seen the kissing of a priest's vestments has been during the Great Entrance procession in an Antiochian church. I was told that it may be due to a misunderstanding that the gifts had already been consecrated. Or, it can be due to the fact that the Great Entrance represents the entry of the Lord into Jerusalem and the priest/bishop is treated as an icon of Christ.

The Antiochian custom of touching the Priest's vestments during the Great Entrance, comes from the woman who was healed by touching the hem of the robe of Christ.

Fr. John W. Morris.

It is not only an Antiochian custom, it is also seen in Greek churches. The Russian version is reaching out and touching the strips of ribbon trailing from the four corners of the plashchanitsa (epitaphion) during its solemn procession from the altar to the nave during Vespers of Great Friday; the priest's vestments are sometimes also touched during this procession, as can also happen during the bringing out of the Cross during the eves of the two feasts of the Cross, during Great Lent and on September 14.

The most likely reason why Russians do not touch the vestments at the Great Entrance is because this procession is conducted from the northern deacon's door, onto the solea, and through the Royal Doors, not down the northern aisle and up the central aisle.

Excellent point!
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Porter ODoran
Erst Amish Appalachian
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catechumen
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese
Posts: 2,000


Lord have mercy. Lord have mercy. Lord have mercy.


« Reply #54 on: June 02, 2014, 06:56:42 PM »

Reminds me of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_bishop

Quote
Boy bishop was a name given to a custom very widespread in the Middle Ages, whereby a boy was chosen, for example among cathedral choristers, to parody the real bishop, commonly on the feast of Holy Innocents. This custom was linked with others, such as that of the Feast of Fools and the Feast of Asses.

Ah, what we have lost.
Logged

In love did God create the world; in love does he guide it ...; in love is he going wondrously to transform it. --Abba Isaac

Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity. --Climacus
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 30,095


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #55 on: June 02, 2014, 07:07:51 PM »

Reminds me of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_bishop

Quote
Boy bishop was a name given to a custom very widespread in the Middle Ages, whereby a boy was chosen, for example among cathedral choristers, to parody the real bishop, commonly on the feast of Holy Innocents. This custom was linked with others, such as that of the Feast of Fools and the Feast of Asses.

Ah, what we have lost.

Boy bishops? St. Athanasius leads us astray yet again!
Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
CopticDeacon
Αναγνώστης(Reader) in the God-loving Diocese of New York and New England
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 531


St Nicholas, the Puncher of Heretics, Pray for us!


« Reply #56 on: June 02, 2014, 07:12:02 PM »

Please, explain the meaning behind the priest/bishop de-vesting as described above.   

I've never heard of such a custom (folding vestments on the backs of bowing faithful at the end of Liturgy).  It is certainly not in any liturgical books or part of any formal rite.  The closest thing I can think of is an Indian custom which I doubt is at play here.  Maybe what you witnessed is some bizarre village custom; such things exist.

 

Folding vestments on the floor and prostrating on them? I saw that when I visited.
Logged

"I see the heavens opened up, and the Son of Man seated at the right hand of God"
-St. Stephen the Archdeacon and Protomartyr
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 17,790


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #57 on: June 02, 2014, 07:17:07 PM »

Folding vestments on the floor and prostrating on them? I saw that when I visited.

That's not the Indian custom I had in mind.  What you describe is most likely a combination of a) the usual way of folding one's tonia (I'm using your word Tongue) and b) someone's personal piety. 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
CopticDeacon
Αναγνώστης(Reader) in the God-loving Diocese of New York and New England
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 531


St Nicholas, the Puncher of Heretics, Pray for us!


« Reply #58 on: June 02, 2014, 07:24:48 PM »

Folding vestments on the floor and prostrating on them? I saw that when I visited.

That's not the Indian custom I had in mind.  What you describe is most likely a combination of a) the usual way of folding one's tonia (I'm using your word Tongue) and b) someone's personal piety. 

a) thank you
b) guess they're very pious
The Achen(now we're even) and the acolytes (no one had uroros(I'm ahead) on so I don't know if there were other ranks present) all folded their vestments like so.
Logged

"I see the heavens opened up, and the Son of Man seated at the right hand of God"
-St. Stephen the Archdeacon and Protomartyr
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 17,790


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #59 on: June 02, 2014, 07:29:31 PM »

The Achen(now we're even) and the acolytes (no one had uroros(I'm ahead) on so I don't know if there were other ranks present) all folded their vestments like so.

If there were other ranks present, they would've worn their appropriate vestments.  We don't regard vestments as "optional", as contemporary Coptic practice seems to regard them. 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
CopticDeacon
Αναγνώστης(Reader) in the God-loving Diocese of New York and New England
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 531


St Nicholas, the Puncher of Heretics, Pray for us!


« Reply #60 on: June 02, 2014, 07:30:38 PM »


If there were other ranks present, they would've worn their appropriate vestments.  We don't regard vestments as "optional", as contemporary Coptic practice seems to regard them

*Single manly tear*
Logged

"I see the heavens opened up, and the Son of Man seated at the right hand of God"
-St. Stephen the Archdeacon and Protomartyr
augustin717
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: The other ROC
Posts: 5,635



« Reply #61 on: June 02, 2014, 07:46:06 PM »

Would it be too wrong to call the custom something like Byzantine strip-tease? 
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 17,790


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #62 on: June 02, 2014, 07:52:29 PM »

Would it be too wrong to call the custom something like Byzantine strip-tease? 

I'm surprised you even bothered to ask about wrongness.  Tongue
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
hecma925
Non-clairvoyant
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 6,352


Pray for me, a sinner.


WWW
« Reply #63 on: June 03, 2014, 09:22:47 AM »

It's only striptease if the parishioners drop a few more dollars into the offering basket afterwards.  Or pay off their candle debts.
Logged

TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 8,713



« Reply #64 on: June 03, 2014, 09:28:47 AM »

It's only striptease if the parishioners drop a few more dollars into the offering basket afterwards.  Or pay off their candle debts.
Your supposed to pay that off?  Ohh boy...
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
hecma925
Non-clairvoyant
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 6,352


Pray for me, a sinner.


WWW
« Reply #65 on: June 03, 2014, 09:46:28 AM »

It's only striptease if the parishioners drop a few more dollars into the offering basket afterwards.  Or pay off their candle debts.
Your supposed to pay that off?  Ohh boy...

Yeah, I know your kind....pretending to put money in the box and taking 5 candles.
Logged

jah777
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 1,934


« Reply #66 on: June 03, 2014, 10:55:51 AM »

it was Metropolitan Elect Demetrios, who is Met. Pavlos' successor in Astoria, NY. 

The only time I saw this before was with the same Bp. Demetrius after a service in a HOCNA parish when he was still with them.  I'm not sure of the origin or history of the practice, but I thought it showed a great deal of reverence on the part of the faithful for their bishop. 
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 17,790


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #67 on: October 14, 2014, 02:11:26 PM »







Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
Minnesotan
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Raised evangelical, inquiring into Orthodoxy
Jurisdiction: Interested in becoming Antiochian
Posts: 274


From the Land of 10,000 Lakes


« Reply #68 on: October 14, 2014, 03:54:46 PM »

It's only striptease if the parishioners drop a few more dollars into the offering basket afterwards.  Or pay off their candle debts.
Your supposed to pay that off?  Ohh boy...

Yeah, I know your kind....pretending to put money in the box and taking 5 candles.

No, 4 candles.
Logged
IXOYE
Site Supporter
High Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 712



« Reply #69 on: October 14, 2014, 05:41:35 PM »









Tossing vestments?

Logged
IXOYE
Site Supporter
High Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 712



« Reply #70 on: October 14, 2014, 05:44:39 PM »

What is the meaning - symbolism?

From the previous description I expected maybe a few people, but this seems to be the whole parish and he is tossing them.

Logged
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,237


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #71 on: October 14, 2014, 05:56:38 PM »

Very interesting discussion.

People placed their garments on the ground to pave the way for Christ's Entrance into Jerusalem.

The Bishop (representing Christ) is tossing his blessed vestments onto the faithful.
This is a blessing.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
IXOYE
Site Supporter
High Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 712



« Reply #72 on: October 14, 2014, 06:00:57 PM »

Very interesting discussion.

People placed their garments on the ground to pave the way for Christ's Entrance into Jerusalem.

The Bishop (representing Christ) is tossing his blessed vestments onto the faithful.
This is a blessing.


Bishops make pastoral visits a lot.  I have never seen photos like the above when a bishop makes his visit.  I would expect other bishops to do this sometimes as well.

Logged
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,237


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #73 on: October 14, 2014, 06:14:25 PM »

Very interesting discussion.

People placed their garments on the ground to pave the way for Christ's Entrance into Jerusalem.

The Bishop (representing Christ) is tossing his blessed vestments onto the faithful.
This is a blessing.


Bishops make pastoral visits a lot.  I have never seen photos like the above when a bishop makes his visit.  I would expect other bishops to do this sometimes as well.



I have never seen any bishop toss his vestments on the faithful. It could be a bit risky with one of the smaller vestments landing on the ground. Most likely this is why older bishops have not done this.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #74 on: October 15, 2014, 10:17:20 AM »

it was Metropolitan Elect Demetrios, who is Met. Pavlos' successor in Astoria, NY. 

HOTCA?

For purposes of clarification, there is no such jurisdiction as "HOTCA." That is a legal name of a non-profit corporation dating back to the 1970s. The website URL reflects that, for various reasons that would bore you, but suffice it to say, we would prefer to have goc.org (which points to us, but is registered anonymously, and we can't get in contact with the owner) or some other URL. For now, we keep hotca.org, but the jurisdiction is simply the Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians of America, an autonomous Eparchial Synod whose primate, Metropolitan Demetrius (Kyriakou) is a member of the Holy Synod of the Church of the GOC of Greece.
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #75 on: October 15, 2014, 10:21:12 AM »

it was Metropolitan Elect Demetrios, who is Met. Pavlos' successor in Astoria, NY. 

I do not believe that they are a canonical Orthodox jurisdiction.

The dubiousness of the "canonical" adjective aside, it's irrelevant to the discussion. Unlike say vagantes who make stuff up all the time, the practices of Old Calendarists are identical to official Orthodoxy, except where the latter has deviated from earlier practice.

Oftentimes, practices in Old Calendarist jurisdictions reflect pious customs of a particular region of the Old world, however, owing to the smaller, more insular nature of Old Calendarist parishes and communities, and the way such practices continue on in the New World by the immigrants. But it's certainly not the case that because we are separate from you, we are creating our own stuff (like vagantes do).
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #76 on: October 15, 2014, 10:27:54 AM »

OK. There is some confusion here.

Archbishop Demetrios (Traketellis) is head of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

Metropolitan Demetrius (Kiriacou) is Metropolitan of America for the Old Calendarist Greeks not affiliated with what some of us call 'canonical' Orthodoxy and members of that group call 'world' Orthodoxy.

Which one are we talking about. The first Bishop is elderly, the other Bishop is about forty years old.

We are NOT talking about the Archbishop of the GOA.

the only affiliation is that the jurisdiction of Bp. Demetrios does give communion to the faithful of Abp. Demetrios of the GOA

No, we do not give communion to New Calendarists, although the founder of St. Markella's, Metropolitan Petros of Astoria, did. This practice was phased out as the division between the Old and New Calendar Churches became more pronounced, Ecumenism increased, and the general level of knowledge of the Greek people in Astoria increased to the point that Metropolitan Petros's approach no longer bore the fruit it used to, in terms of bringing people into the Old Calendar Church. The practices of Metropolitan Petros are described in my book, Metropolitan Petros of Astoria: A Microcosm of the Old Calendar Movement in America (available for the low price of 7.99 print/4.99 eBook, please consider purchasing to help me support my family!!), and I address the charge that his successor, Metropolitan Pavlos, willy-nilly continued the practice (which is not true) in a response I made to the troublemaking soi-disant Archbishop Gregory of Colorado:

Quote
In part as a result of the interview, the GOC Synod made certain demands of Fr. Pavlos, should he be ordained a bishop, such as that he stop communing New Calendarists at St. Markella’s Cathedral and reiterate his Orthodox confession of faith, which he did. He made several good faith efforts to stop the communing of New Calendarists at St. Markella’s, such as promulgating a 2002 Encyclical[12] which forbade the practice.

There were some serious pastoral concerns, however, which mitigated a vocal and public approach at St. Markella’s. The preferred approach at the cathedral was to address these concerns in private. There were also some people who continued to slip through the cracks here and there, but what is clear is that these were exceptions in some cases and mistakes in others (such as when people misrepresented themselves, and were not properly investigated by the clergy beforehand).[13] Metropolitan Pavlos retired in 2013, at any rate, and his successor Metropolitan Demetrius has made it clear that any vestigial exceptions to policy occurring at the cathedral should and must cease. At his enthronement in May 2014, a clear message was read before Holy Communion that to approach, one must be a member of the Holy Synod of Archbishop Kallinikos, or one of our sister Churches.
Source: "A Response to Some Distortions by Archbishop Gregory Concerning the GOC."

I hope this clears things up.

Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 14,045


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #77 on: October 15, 2014, 10:35:05 AM »

For what it's worth, I have never seen this happen at my parish.
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
Regnare
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA catechumen
Posts: 325



« Reply #78 on: October 15, 2014, 12:00:14 PM »

Unlike say vagantes who make stuff up all the time, the practices of Old Calendarists are identical to official Orthodoxy, except where the latter has deviated from earlier practice.
Is there anywhere I could find a list of these differences?
Logged

"I give praise to your holy Nature, Lord, for you have made my nature a sanctuary for your hiddenness and a tabernacle for your holy mysteries, a place where you can dwell, and a holy temple for your Divinity." --Venerable St. Isaac of Nineveh
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,595


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #79 on: October 15, 2014, 02:57:22 PM »

Unlike say vagantes who make stuff up all the time, the practices of Old Calendarists are identical to official Orthodoxy, except where the latter has deviated from earlier practice.
Is there anywhere I could find a list of these differences?

You would no doubt get a different list with very different explanations, depending on the source. The problem with the "deviating from earlier sources" argument, as I view it, is just when does one arbitrarily determine what epoch was most "authentic."  Should we pick say 1014 AD and remove modern icon screens? Who determines what is a "deviation" and under what individual authority? It's a very slippery slope.
Logged
Regnare
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA catechumen
Posts: 325



« Reply #80 on: October 15, 2014, 03:31:13 PM »

You would no doubt get a different list with very different explanations, depending on the source. The problem with the "deviating from earlier sources" argument, as I view it, is just when does one arbitrarily determine what epoch was most "authentic."  Should we pick say 1014 AD and remove modern icon screens? Who determines what is a "deviation" and under what individual authority? It's a very slippery slope.
Well, he didn't say "more authentic", he just said "earlier". Old Calendarists have never claimed to revive anything ancient, to my knowledge; they claim only to be the authentic successors of the Church of Greece before its imposition of the New Calendar in the 1920s. So all I'd expect to hear would be differences between Greek Orthodox practice at the beginning of the 20th century and Greek Orthodox practice now. For example: Greek Old Calendarists still use only the single orarion for regular deacons (link), but they also use the same Violakis Typicon as their New Calendar counterparts, since that was put into place decades before the calendar schism, and therefore use only Vespers and Matins, not the full Vigil and Little Hours.
Logged

"I give praise to your holy Nature, Lord, for you have made my nature a sanctuary for your hiddenness and a tabernacle for your holy mysteries, a place where you can dwell, and a holy temple for your Divinity." --Venerable St. Isaac of Nineveh
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,595


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #81 on: October 15, 2014, 03:36:16 PM »

You would no doubt get a different list with very different explanations, depending on the source. The problem with the "deviating from earlier sources" argument, as I view it, is just when does one arbitrarily determine what epoch was most "authentic."  Should we pick say 1014 AD and remove modern icon screens? Who determines what is a "deviation" and under what individual authority? It's a very slippery slope.
Well, he didn't say "more authentic", he just said "earlier". Old Calendarists have never claimed to revive anything ancient, to my knowledge; they claim only to be the authentic successors of the Church of Greece before its imposition of the New Calendar in the 1920s. So all I'd expect to hear would be differences between Greek Orthodox practice at the beginning of the 20th century and Greek Orthodox practice now. For example: Greek Old Calendarists still use only the single orarion for regular deacons (link), but they also use the same Violakis Typicon as their New Calendar counterparts, since that was put into place decades before the calendar schism, and therefore use only Vespers and Matins, not the full Vigil and Little Hours.

I repeat my earlier point, which is what makes one period more 'authentic' than another and just who - outside of the consensus of the Church through its duly enthroned hierarchs - is entitled to make such 'decisions.' We are getting close to an argument here which is prohibited by the rules of the forum and I don't desire to cross that line.
Logged
Regnare
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA catechumen
Posts: 325



« Reply #82 on: October 15, 2014, 04:29:21 PM »

I understand your point, podkarpatska. All I'm saying is, the liturgical differences between Greek parishes on either side of the calendar schism provide a way of looking at when certain liturgical changes happened, and what liturgy looked like at the beginning of the 20th century. I have no more interest in rejecting present (New Calendar) practice in favour of theirs than I have in rejecting the New Rite in favour of the Russian Old Rite, and I don't think Anastasios does either; he was just trying to distinguish the particular practices of his church from the novelties of "vagante churches".
Logged

"I give praise to your holy Nature, Lord, for you have made my nature a sanctuary for your hiddenness and a tabernacle for your holy mysteries, a place where you can dwell, and a holy temple for your Divinity." --Venerable St. Isaac of Nineveh
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,595


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #83 on: October 15, 2014, 04:44:33 PM »

I understand your point, podkarpatska. All I'm saying is, the liturgical differences between Greek parishes on either side of the calendar schism provide a way of looking at when certain liturgical changes happened, and what liturgy looked like at the beginning of the 20th century. I have no more interest in rejecting present (New Calendar) practice in favour of theirs than I have in rejecting the New Rite in favour of the Russian Old Rite, and I don't think Anastasios does either; he was just trying to distinguish the particular practices of his church from the novelties of "vagante churches".

I understand that about Anastasios, but I felt it necessary to point out that there is a danger in so-called 'restorationism' which is a fad among some in what you and I would consider to be canonical Orthodoxy.
Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,487


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #84 on: October 15, 2014, 07:52:08 PM »

Unlike say vagantes who make stuff up all the time, the practices of Old Calendarists are identical to official Orthodoxy, except where the latter has deviated from earlier practice.
Is there anywhere I could find a list of these differences?

You would no doubt get a different list with very different explanations, depending on the source. The problem with the "deviating from earlier sources" argument, as I view it, is just when does one arbitrarily determine what epoch was most "authentic."  Should we pick say 1014 AD and remove modern icon screens? Who determines what is a "deviation" and under what individual authority? It's a very slippery slope.

I'm talking about really obvious things like all the experimentation that happened at St. Vladimir's in the 1960s and 1970s, or what happens at New Skete. Stuff that is not part of the consensus of the Church, stuff that a committee sat down and made up--sometimes with good intentions, but sometimes deliberately to introduce change in what they considered to be "later accretions." Stuff like choirs with people wearing Protestant robes playing on organs. Stuff that is not part of the received Tradition.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 07:54:24 PM by Anastasios » Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Tags: clerical vestments vestments 
Pages: « 1 2  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.15 seconds with 66 queries.