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Author Topic: vestments of priest put on laymen...  (Read 1614 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2014, 03:17:48 PM »

based on the picture....that isnt the elderly one....Wink
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« Reply #46 on: May 09, 2014, 03:40:26 PM »

Met Jona was serving at our Church ( Rocor).. I was tasked with his hand washing while he stood in the Royal Doors and I am just outside. I dose his hands ...but then he flicks the water into my face..

So I am like    WTF... If you don't like me just tell me ...etc. ( not out loud  Smiley

He later explained that after a Bishop washes his hands the water is now sanctified so he was giving me a blessing with Holy Water.... Learn something new ever day.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 03:41:21 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2014, 05:21:09 PM »

Are you talking about Demetrios Trakatellis? He is the only Greek Orthodox Bishop in Astoria that I know of and he belongs to the EP. Anyway, to get back to the theme of the original post, folding vestments on the back of another person is odd. Was there no table that he could have used. I have occasionally seen vestments folded on the chairs at the high place and on the Bishop's Throne, if he was not using it. Deacons and servers would use ledges or tables to fold their vestments, and when a bishop is vested, the vestments are on a table or tray and are folded. When he unvests, vestments are also folded on a table in reverse order.

No, not the GOA Archbishop.  Bp. Demetrios has only been a bishop for about two years for the Greeks, and was recently elected to replace Met. Pavlos S. of Astoria, NY.  They are in communion with Abp. Demetrios T. indirectly.

There were plenty of tables.  Like I said, it looked like a hero worship type of thing, as the people flock to Bp. Demetrios as if he is the last of the elders in Orthodoxy.  Ofcourse, there must be some kind of blessing, otherwise I don't see any justification for it, unless someone can come forward with examples from holy fathers and saints doing the same?


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« Reply #48 on: May 09, 2014, 05:50:36 PM »

Well, I've seen something maybe a bit similar, but with "usual" priest, in Moldova.
Right after Liturgy the priest came out from the iconostasis and started putting out his vestments and laying them down on on the faithful that had gathered before him. After that he read some prayers and took the vestments. We were said it's a rite for people that are ill (probably not only physically, but also spiritually). I think it has something to do with this bleeding woman from the Gospel, who caught Christ's robe and was healed.

Here is the picture of what I've been witness:




I've heard something similar is done in Pochayaveska Lavra (or anotehr famous Ukrainian Orthodox monastery), but mabye really only with a bishop, I don't remember.

Yes, this is it.  Thank you so much for sharing.  I knew there must have been some good reason for this, as everyone is sick to some extent.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 05:51:35 PM by Cyrus » Logged
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« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2014, 01:54:40 AM »

This doesn't seem all that different.

It is. 

Why? I haven't seen that around here but I can imagine it being done. I like that kind of folk piety.

I make no judgement on "this kind" of folk piety, though I like folk piety in general.  But it seems to me that it's one thing to touch/kiss the fringe of a priest's vestments and quite another for him to take them off (even while he still half-wears some) and lay them on the backs of bowing individuals while prayers and blessings are offered.  Among other things, the latter involves the priest doing things with vestments which probably ought not be done.     

That, plus the only time that I have seen the kissing of a priest's vestments has been during the Great Entrance procession in an Antiochian church. I was told that it may be due to a misunderstanding that the gifts had already been consecrated. Or, it can be due to the fact that the Great Entrance represents the entry of the Lord into Jerusalem and the priest/bishop is treated as an icon of Christ.

The Antiochian custom of touching the Priest's vestments during the Great Entrance, comes from the woman who was healed by touching the hem of the robe of Christ.

Fr. John W. Morris.
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« Reply #50 on: May 10, 2014, 02:04:14 AM »

This doesn't seem all that different.

It is.  

Why? I haven't seen that around here but I can imagine it being done. I like that kind of folk piety.

I make no judgement on "this kind" of folk piety, though I like folk piety in general.  But it seems to me that it's one thing to touch/kiss the fringe of a priest's vestments and quite another for him to take them off (even while he still half-wears some) and lay them on the backs of bowing individuals while prayers and blessings are offered.  Among other things, the latter involves the priest doing things with vestments which probably ought not be done.      

That, plus the only time that I have seen the kissing of a priest's vestments has been during the Great Entrance procession in an Antiochian church. I was told that it may be due to a misunderstanding that the gifts had already been consecrated. Or, it can be due to the fact that the Great Entrance represents the entry of the Lord into Jerusalem and the priest/bishop is treated as an icon of Christ.

The Antiochian custom of touching the Priest's vestments during the Great Entrance, comes from the woman who was healed by touching the hem of the robe of Christ.

Fr. John W. Morris.

It is not only an Antiochian custom, it is also seen in Greek churches. The Russian version is reaching out and touching the strips of ribbon trailing from the four corners of the plashchanitsa (epitaphion) during its solemn procession from the altar to the nave during Vespers of Great Friday; the priest's vestments are sometimes also touched during this procession, as can also happen during the bringing out of the Cross during the eves of the two feasts of the Cross, during Great Lent and on September 14.

The most likely reason why Russians do not touch the vestments at the Great Entrance is because this procession is conducted from the northern deacon's door, onto the solea, and through the Royal Doors, not down the northern aisle and up the central aisle.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 02:06:30 AM by LBK » Logged
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« Reply #51 on: May 15, 2014, 10:19:53 PM »

fish n chips  police
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« Reply #52 on: May 31, 2014, 04:37:43 AM »

Reminds me of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_bishop

Quote
Boy bishop was a name given to a custom very widespread in the Middle Ages, whereby a boy was chosen, for example among cathedral choristers, to parody the real bishop, commonly on the feast of Holy Innocents. This custom was linked with others, such as that of the Feast of Fools and the Feast of Asses.
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« Reply #53 on: June 02, 2014, 01:48:41 PM »

This doesn't seem all that different.

It is.  

Why? I haven't seen that around here but I can imagine it being done. I like that kind of folk piety.

I make no judgement on "this kind" of folk piety, though I like folk piety in general.  But it seems to me that it's one thing to touch/kiss the fringe of a priest's vestments and quite another for him to take them off (even while he still half-wears some) and lay them on the backs of bowing individuals while prayers and blessings are offered.  Among other things, the latter involves the priest doing things with vestments which probably ought not be done.      

That, plus the only time that I have seen the kissing of a priest's vestments has been during the Great Entrance procession in an Antiochian church. I was told that it may be due to a misunderstanding that the gifts had already been consecrated. Or, it can be due to the fact that the Great Entrance represents the entry of the Lord into Jerusalem and the priest/bishop is treated as an icon of Christ.

The Antiochian custom of touching the Priest's vestments during the Great Entrance, comes from the woman who was healed by touching the hem of the robe of Christ.

Fr. John W. Morris.

It is not only an Antiochian custom, it is also seen in Greek churches. The Russian version is reaching out and touching the strips of ribbon trailing from the four corners of the plashchanitsa (epitaphion) during its solemn procession from the altar to the nave during Vespers of Great Friday; the priest's vestments are sometimes also touched during this procession, as can also happen during the bringing out of the Cross during the eves of the two feasts of the Cross, during Great Lent and on September 14.

The most likely reason why Russians do not touch the vestments at the Great Entrance is because this procession is conducted from the northern deacon's door, onto the solea, and through the Royal Doors, not down the northern aisle and up the central aisle.

Excellent point!
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« Reply #54 on: June 02, 2014, 06:56:42 PM »

Reminds me of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_bishop

Quote
Boy bishop was a name given to a custom very widespread in the Middle Ages, whereby a boy was chosen, for example among cathedral choristers, to parody the real bishop, commonly on the feast of Holy Innocents. This custom was linked with others, such as that of the Feast of Fools and the Feast of Asses.

Ah, what we have lost.
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« Reply #55 on: June 02, 2014, 07:07:51 PM »

Reminds me of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_bishop

Quote
Boy bishop was a name given to a custom very widespread in the Middle Ages, whereby a boy was chosen, for example among cathedral choristers, to parody the real bishop, commonly on the feast of Holy Innocents. This custom was linked with others, such as that of the Feast of Fools and the Feast of Asses.

Ah, what we have lost.

Boy bishops? St. Athanasius leads us astray yet again!
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« Reply #56 on: June 02, 2014, 07:12:02 PM »

Please, explain the meaning behind the priest/bishop de-vesting as described above.   

I've never heard of such a custom (folding vestments on the backs of bowing faithful at the end of Liturgy).  It is certainly not in any liturgical books or part of any formal rite.  The closest thing I can think of is an Indian custom which I doubt is at play here.  Maybe what you witnessed is some bizarre village custom; such things exist.

 

Folding vestments on the floor and prostrating on them? I saw that when I visited.
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« Reply #57 on: June 02, 2014, 07:17:07 PM »

Folding vestments on the floor and prostrating on them? I saw that when I visited.

That's not the Indian custom I had in mind.  What you describe is most likely a combination of a) the usual way of folding one's tonia (I'm using your word Tongue) and b) someone's personal piety. 
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« Reply #58 on: June 02, 2014, 07:24:48 PM »

Folding vestments on the floor and prostrating on them? I saw that when I visited.

That's not the Indian custom I had in mind.  What you describe is most likely a combination of a) the usual way of folding one's tonia (I'm using your word Tongue) and b) someone's personal piety. 

a) thank you
b) guess they're very pious
The Achen(now we're even) and the acolytes (no one had uroros(I'm ahead) on so I don't know if there were other ranks present) all folded their vestments like so.
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« Reply #59 on: June 02, 2014, 07:29:31 PM »

The Achen(now we're even) and the acolytes (no one had uroros(I'm ahead) on so I don't know if there were other ranks present) all folded their vestments like so.

If there were other ranks present, they would've worn their appropriate vestments.  We don't regard vestments as "optional", as contemporary Coptic practice seems to regard them. 
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« Reply #60 on: June 02, 2014, 07:30:38 PM »


If there were other ranks present, they would've worn their appropriate vestments.  We don't regard vestments as "optional", as contemporary Coptic practice seems to regard them

*Single manly tear*
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« Reply #61 on: June 02, 2014, 07:46:06 PM »

Would it be too wrong to call the custom something like Byzantine strip-tease? 
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« Reply #62 on: June 02, 2014, 07:52:29 PM »

Would it be too wrong to call the custom something like Byzantine strip-tease? 

I'm surprised you even bothered to ask about wrongness.  Tongue
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« Reply #63 on: June 03, 2014, 09:22:47 AM »

It's only striptease if the parishioners drop a few more dollars into the offering basket afterwards.  Or pay off their candle debts.
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« Reply #64 on: June 03, 2014, 09:28:47 AM »

It's only striptease if the parishioners drop a few more dollars into the offering basket afterwards.  Or pay off their candle debts.
Your supposed to pay that off?  Ohh boy...
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« Reply #65 on: June 03, 2014, 09:46:28 AM »

It's only striptease if the parishioners drop a few more dollars into the offering basket afterwards.  Or pay off their candle debts.
Your supposed to pay that off?  Ohh boy...

Yeah, I know your kind....pretending to put money in the box and taking 5 candles.
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« Reply #66 on: June 03, 2014, 10:55:51 AM »

it was Metropolitan Elect Demetrios, who is Met. Pavlos' successor in Astoria, NY. 

The only time I saw this before was with the same Bp. Demetrius after a service in a HOCNA parish when he was still with them.  I'm not sure of the origin or history of the practice, but I thought it showed a great deal of reverence on the part of the faithful for their bishop. 
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