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Author Topic: vestments of priest put on laymen...  (Read 2475 times) Average Rating: 0
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Cyrus
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« on: May 06, 2014, 06:31:10 PM »

Christ is Risen!

I had seen once after the Divine Liturgy, the priest come out to the faithful in his vestments, then having the people come before him and bow, so that he could put all his vestments on their backs and heads, basically using them as a table top to fold his vestments.   Does anyone know where this tradition comes from?

Thank you.

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« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2014, 12:33:43 AM »

Um..................never saw this or heard this before.  Are you making this up?
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« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2014, 01:17:06 AM »

Maybe it was a one time thing, but in most cases you have to be a bishop to be vested and to have human hangers Wink.
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« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2014, 06:27:13 AM »

exactly, this priest is a bishop  Wink    so where does this "human hanger" tradition originate?

Thank you.
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« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2014, 08:57:20 AM »

"Where do I put this mantiya....ach, my hat....I need a, um, a....SUBDEACON.  You, there!  Hold this!"
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« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2014, 11:26:27 AM »

"Where do I put this mantiya....ach, my hat....I need a, um, a....SUBDEACON.  You, there!  Hold this!"

Laymen, doing waist prostrations, sign of the cross, stand in front of bishop bowing from the waist, while bishop takes his own vestments off, laying them over the heads and backs of the faithful, until he is all done, then he neatly folds his vestments (using their backs as a table top), then the faithful rise, kiss vestments, bishops hand.

Just reminded us of some type of hero worship.

P.S. this was a bishop serving as a priest, no mantiya.
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« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2014, 11:35:17 AM »

If a hero is worshiped in that situation, it would be the Lord. Clerical liturgical garb, like almost everything else, are iconic in nature. Here is the meaning of one of the items and the prayer at its vesting.

"2.  EPITRACHELION:  The Epitrachelion (stole: meaning "on the neck") signifies the outpouring of Grace from Above on the Priest.  It also symbolizes the Cross carried by our Lord upon His shoulders. A church service cannot be celebrated without it. It denotes the balance, weight and responsibility that priests have for all our souls. The tassels that hang at the lower part of the Stole represent our souls that hang on the Spiritual Fathers neck.
 
   "Blessed is God, Who pours His grace on His Priests, like the balm on the head, that     ran down the beard, even Aaron's beard, down to the skirts of his garment."    (Psalm 133, Verse 2)"

http://www.stgeorgegreenville.org/OurFaith/Divine%20Liturgy/Divine%20Liturgy-Vesting.html


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« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2014, 12:25:17 PM »

If a hero is worshiped in that situation, it would be the Lord. Clerical liturgical garb, like almost everything else, are iconic in nature. Here is the meaning of one of the items and the prayer at its vesting.

"2.  EPITRACHELION:  The Epitrachelion (stole: meaning "on the neck") signifies the outpouring of Grace from Above on the Priest.  It also symbolizes the Cross carried by our Lord upon His shoulders. A church service cannot be celebrated without it. It denotes the balance, weight and responsibility that priests have for all our souls. The tassels that hang at the lower part of the Stole represent our souls that hang on the Spiritual Fathers neck.
 
   "Blessed is God, Who pours His grace on His Priests, like the balm on the head, that     ran down the beard, even Aaron's beard, down to the skirts of his garment."    (Psalm 133, Verse 2)"

http://www.stgeorgegreenville.org/OurFaith/Divine%20Liturgy/Divine%20Liturgy-Vesting.html




I understand the vesting prayers, but what took place no one here has been able to explain in the same manner.  Please, explain the meaning behind the priest/bishop de-vesting as described above.   

Thank you in advance
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« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2014, 12:31:25 PM »

Cant explain, never seen it anywhere I've been.
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« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2014, 12:32:46 PM »

Please, explain the meaning behind the priest/bishop de-vesting as described above.   

I've never heard of such a custom (folding vestments on the backs of bowing faithful at the end of Liturgy).  It is certainly not in any liturgical books or part of any formal rite.  The closest thing I can think of is an Indian custom which I doubt is at play here.  Maybe what you witnessed is some bizarre village custom; such things exist.

 
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« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2014, 12:34:00 PM »

If a hero is worshiped in that situation, it would be the Lord. Clerical liturgical garb, like almost everything else, are iconic in nature. Here is the meaning of one of the items and the prayer at its vesting.

"2.  EPITRACHELION:  The Epitrachelion (stole: meaning "on the neck") signifies the outpouring of Grace from Above on the Priest.  It also symbolizes the Cross carried by our Lord upon His shoulders. A church service cannot be celebrated without it. It denotes the balance, weight and responsibility that priests have for all our souls. The tassels that hang at the lower part of the Stole represent our souls that hang on the Spiritual Fathers neck.
 
   "Blessed is God, Who pours His grace on His Priests, like the balm on the head, that     ran down the beard, even Aaron's beard, down to the skirts of his garment."    (Psalm 133, Verse 2)"

http://www.stgeorgegreenville.org/OurFaith/Divine%20Liturgy/Divine%20Liturgy-Vesting.html




I understand the vesting prayers, but what took place no one here has been able to explain in the same manner.  Please, explain the meaning behind the priest/bishop de-vesting as described above.   

Thank you in advance

I cannot explain it as I have not seen this. I simply do not think that it is  common practice amongst canonical Orthodox, but I may be wrong. Could tell us the name of the Church where you saw this happen?
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« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2014, 03:08:03 PM »

it was Metropolitan Elect Demetrios, who is Met. Pavlos' successor in Astoria, NY. 
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« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2014, 03:10:32 PM »

it was Metropolitan Elect Demetrios, who is Met. Pavlos' successor in Astoria, NY. 

HOTCA?
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« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2014, 03:50:24 PM »

it was Metropolitan Elect Demetrios, who is Met. Pavlos' successor in Astoria, NY. 

Smiley

I've attended Liturgy there on a number of occasions, and I never saw such a thing there. 

Is it possible the vestments were relics? 
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« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2014, 04:07:47 PM »

It took place on a visit to California...
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« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2014, 04:48:24 PM »

Clerical liturgical garb, like almost everything else, are iconic in nature.
http://www.stgeorgegreenville.org/OurFaith/Divine%20Liturgy/Divine%20Liturgy-Vesting.html

I think that it's fair to say this to some degree, but I would hesitate to affirm this in an absolute way.  It would seem that some iconic interpretations concerning vestments have become more popular over time.  But this is what I would say that they oftentimes are: (allegorical) interpretations.  I think it's pretty clear that some (not all) clerical garb comes from clothing worn by Roman officials.  By the way, I think that the site that you linked to (Saint George Orthodox Cathedral) is way off base when it affirms that "(the) Liturgical vestments come from the days of the first priests in the old testament".  (Not that you are yourself defending this POV in your post.) There is no connection whatsoever between the levitical priesthood and Christian clergy.
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« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2014, 04:52:23 PM »

By the way, I think that the site that you linked to (Saint George Orthodox Cathedral) is way off base when it affirms that "(the) Liturgical vestments come from the days of the first priests in the old testament".  (Not that you are yourself defending this POV in your post.) There is no connection whatsoever between the levitical priesthood and Christian clergy.

What exactly do you mean by this?  "No connection whatsoever"? 
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« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2014, 05:11:35 PM »

By the way, I think that the site that you linked to (Saint George Orthodox Cathedral) is way off base when it affirms that "(the) Liturgical vestments come from the days of the first priests in the old testament".  (Not that you are yourself defending this POV in your post.) There is no connection whatsoever between the levitical priesthood and Christian clergy.

What exactly do you mean by this?  "No connection whatsoever"? 

Yeah, this just confuses me because our clergy are directly related to the entirety of Temple priesthood.
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« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2014, 05:12:40 PM »

By the way, I think that the site that you linked to (Saint George Orthodox Cathedral) is way off base when it affirms that "(the) Liturgical vestments come from the days of the first priests in the old testament".  (Not that you are yourself defending this POV in your post.) There is no connection whatsoever between the levitical priesthood and Christian clergy.

What exactly do you mean by this?  "No connection whatsoever"? 

Yeah, this just confuses me because our clergy are directly related to the entirety of Temple priesthood.

To be fair to Bob, I would also ask you what exactly you meant by that.  "Directly related to the entirety of the Temple priesthood"? 

Tongue
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« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2014, 05:27:33 PM »

What exactly do you mean by this?  "No connection whatsoever"? 

Yeah, this just confuses me because our clergy are directly related to the entirety of Temple priesthood.

To be fair to Bob, I would also ask you what exactly you meant by that.  "Directly related to the entirety of the Temple priesthood"? 

Tongue

I can't think of a way to articulate my point very well, but I have things like this in mind where there's a clear connection between the two:

Quote
It is You, Lord, Who have also called me, Your humble, sinful and unworthy servant, caught up in many sins, and wallowing in the pleasures of life, to the holy and exceedingly lofty degree of the priesthood, and to enter within the innermost veil, into the holy of holies, where the holy Angels desire to penetrate and hear the voice of the Lord God announcing glad tidings, and to behold with their own eyes the presence of the sacred Oblation, and to enjoy the divine and sacred Liturgy.

You, Lord, deemed me worthy to minister Your heavenly Mysteries, and offer You gifts and sacrifices for our sins, and the ignorances of people; and to mediate for Your reason-endowed sheep, so that, through Your great and ineffable love for mankind, You may blot out their transgressions.

From the Holy Unction service.
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« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2014, 05:34:17 PM »

I can't think of a way to articulate my point very well, but I have things like this in mind where there's a clear connection between the two:

Quote
It is You, Lord, Who have also called me, Your humble, sinful and unworthy servant, caught up in many sins, and wallowing in the pleasures of life, to the holy and exceedingly lofty degree of the priesthood, and to enter within the innermost veil, into the holy of holies, where the holy Angels desire to penetrate and hear the voice of the Lord God announcing glad tidings, and to behold with their own eyes the presence of the sacred Oblation, and to enjoy the divine and sacred Liturgy.

You, Lord, deemed me worthy to minister Your heavenly Mysteries, and offer You gifts and sacrifices for our sins, and the ignorances of people; and to mediate for Your reason-endowed sheep, so that, through Your great and ineffable love for mankind, You may blot out their transgressions.

From the Holy Unction service.

Right.  I believe that there is clearly some link made in the liturgical tradition of the Church (and in the NT) between the Christian priesthood and the Old Testament priesthood, enough of a link to reject the idea that there's no connection whatsoever between the two.  But I also think its limitations are such that we cannot say the Christian priesthood is directly related "to the entirety" of the OT priesthood.  The closest thing we have to animal sacrifice, after all, is roasting lamb on a spit. 
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« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2014, 05:48:41 PM »

Right.  I believe that there is clearly some link made in the liturgical tradition of the Church (and in the NT) between the Christian priesthood and the Old Testament priesthood, enough of a link to reject the idea that there's no connection whatsoever between the two.  But I also think its limitations are such that we cannot say the Christian priesthood is directly related "to the entirety" of the OT priesthood.  The closest thing we have to animal sacrifice, after all, is roasting lamb on a spit. 

Oh, you're right, I should've been more clear to begin with. Things like animal sacrifice didn't even cross my mind.
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« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2014, 06:07:59 PM »

Saw the epitrachelion used today by the new priest at confession. 
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« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2014, 07:34:34 PM »

By the way, I think that the site that you linked to (Saint George Orthodox Cathedral) is way off base when it affirms that "(the) Liturgical vestments come from the days of the first priests in the old testament".  (Not that you are yourself defending this POV in your post.) There is no connection whatsoever between the levitical priesthood and Christian clergy.

What exactly do you mean by this?  "No connection whatsoever"?  

Well, I mean exactly what I say.  Perhaps I have overstated things a little bit to make a point.

Yeah, this just confuses me because our clergy are directly related to the entirety of Temple priesthood.

Sorry, but IMHO this is an erroneous POV concerning the nature of Christian priesthood.  Although the Church is indeed the true Israel, and though we have indeed inherited (and sometimes transformed) much from the Jewish tradition in terms of our scriptures and (early) liturgical practice, IMHO there can be no denying that priesthood is simply not the same now that the old covenant has been supplanted by the new covenant.  The veil of the temple was torn in two.  The glorious death, resurrection, and ascension of our Lord, together with the giving of the Spirit and inauguration of the Kingdom have turned the whole world upside down!  Paul considered everything he inherited from Hebrew tradition to be garbage(!) compared to the new life in Christ.  (Philippians 3:4-11)  Every baptised Christian believer is in fact a priest, which flows from the only true priesthood: that of Christ.  Bishops and their delegates (presbyters) function as the president of each local Church or assembly.  It is certainly true that there  are sacerdotal elements that come into play in their function, and that only bishops or their duly appointed delegates my preside at liturgy.  But it is the entire assembly that participates in the offering and consecration of the Eucharist, not just the president of the assembly.   Although the clergy are called to a special role in the Church, they are also all still laos in the early Christian sense, just like the rest of us.  I am not saying that the Church is not hierarchical, or that we should not respect and love and pray for our bishops and priests....this is our duty, and they need our support!  But I think it is dangerous to set them apart completely, this can lead to clericalism.

I have no trouble at all with us calling prebyters priests: sure, they are members of a ministerial priesthood, just like bishops.  I get that.  But the fact remains that they are drawn from the laos and remain such while also being clergy, and we the members of the people of God are true priests if we are in Christ, and we are in no way related to the levitical priesthood.  Unless you want to say that the levitical priesthood is a tupos of the Christian priesthood to come, I suppose.  

It is You, Lord, Who have also called me, Your humble, sinful and unworthy servant, caught up in many sins, and wallowing in the pleasures of life, to the holy and exceedingly lofty degree of the priesthood, and to enter within the innermost veil, into the holy of holies, where the holy Angels desire to penetrate and hear the voice of the Lord God announcing glad tidings, and to behold with their own eyes the presence of the sacred Oblation, and to enjoy the divine and sacred Liturgy.

You, Lord, deemed me worthy to minister Your heavenly Mysteries, and offer You gifts and sacrifices for our sins, and the ignorances of people; and to mediate for Your reason-endowed sheep, so that, through Your great and ineffable love for mankind, You may blot out their transgressions.

This appears to me to be an  allegorical way of talking about the priesthood that is in some ways most unfortunate.  (It is from the prayer to be read by the fifth priest at the service of holy annointing).    

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« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2014, 07:53:27 PM »

Well, I mean exactly what I say.  Perhaps I have overstated things a little bit to make a point.

IMO, a bit too much.  But I still like you.  Wink

Quote
It is You, Lord, Who have also called me, Your humble, sinful and unworthy servant, caught up in many sins, and wallowing in the pleasures of life, to the holy and exceedingly lofty degree of the priesthood, and to enter within the innermost veil, into the holy of holies, where the holy Angels desire to penetrate and hear the voice of the Lord God announcing glad tidings, and to behold with their own eyes the presence of the sacred Oblation, and to enjoy the divine and sacred Liturgy.

You, Lord, deemed me worthy to minister Your heavenly Mysteries, and offer You gifts and sacrifices for our sins, and the ignorances of people; and to mediate for Your reason-endowed sheep, so that, through Your great and ineffable love for mankind, You may blot out their transgressions.

This appears to me to be an  allegorical way of talking about the priesthood that is in some ways most unfortunate.  (It is from the prayer to be read by the fifth priest at the service of holy annointing).    

Why "most unfortunate"? 
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« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2014, 07:54:40 PM »

Well, I mean exactly what I say.  Perhaps I have overstated things a little bit to make a point.

Yeah, this just confuses me because our clergy are directly related to the entirety of Temple priesthood.

Sorry, but IMHO this is an erroneous POV concerning the nature of Christian priesthood.  Although the Church is indeed the true Israel, and though we have indeed inherited (and sometimes transformed) much from the Jewish tradition in terms of our scriptures and (early) liturgical practice, IMHO there can be no denying that priesthood is simply not the same now that the old covenant has been supplanted by the new covenant.  The veil of the temple was torn in two.  The glorious death, resurrection, and ascension of our Lord, together with the giving of the Spirit and inauguration of the Kingdom have turned the whole world upside down!  Paul considered everything he inherited from Hebrew tradition to be garbage(!) compared to the new life in Christ.  (Philippians 3:4-11)  Every baptised Christian believer is in fact a priest, which flows from the only true priesthood: that of Christ.  Bishops and their delegates (presbyters) function as the president of each local Church or assembly.  It is certainly true that there  are sacerdotal elements that come into play in their function, and that only bishops or their duly appointed delegates my preside at liturgy.  But it is the entire assembly that participates in the offering and consecration of the Eucharist, not just the president of the assembly.   Although the clergy are called to a special role in the Church, they are also all still laos in the early Christian sense, just like the rest of us.  I am not saying that the Church is not hierarchical, or that we should not respect and love and pray for our bishops and priests....this is our duty, and they need our support!  But I think it is dangerous to set them apart completely, this can lead to clericalism.

I have no trouble at all with us calling prebyters priests: sure, they are members of a ministerial priesthood, just like bishops.  I get that.  But the fact remains that they are drawn from the laos and remain such while also being clergy, and we the members of the people of God are true priests if we are in Christ, and we are in no way related to the levitical priesthood.  Unless you want to say that the levitical priesthood is a typos of the Christian priesthood to come, I suppose. 

It is You, Lord, Who have also called me, Your humble, sinful and unworthy servant, caught up in many sins, and wallowing in the pleasures of life, to the holy and exceedingly lofty degree of the priesthood, and to enter within the innermost veil, into the holy of holies, where the holy Angels desire to penetrate and hear the voice of the Lord God announcing glad tidings, and to behold with their own eyes the presence of the sacred Oblation, and to enjoy the divine and sacred Liturgy.

You, Lord, deemed me worthy to minister Your heavenly Mysteries, and offer You gifts and sacrifices for our sins, and the ignorances of people; and to mediate for Your reason-endowed sheep, so that, through Your great and ineffable love for mankind, You may blot out their transgressions.

This appears to me to be an  allegorical way of talking about the priesthood that is in some ways most unfortunate.  (It is from the prayer to be read by the fifth priest at the service of holy annointing).

I'm not at all interested in a debate on the subject, so I'll leave it at saying that I disagree with the sort of rupture between the Old and New Testaments that you appear to be suggesting, and that I very much take the view of Orthodox scholars like Fr. Silviu Bunta and (IIRC) Bishop Alexander of Toledo.
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« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2014, 10:50:58 AM »

I also folded up vestments for a priest and helped him unvest on occasion,  but it is usually Bishops who are unvested with the help of servers. For a bishop or a priest to fold vestments on someone's body is unusual, IMHO.
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« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2014, 01:33:28 PM »

Well, I've seen something maybe a bit similar, but with "usual" priest, in Moldova.
Right after Liturgy the priest came out from the iconostasis and started putting out his vestments and laying them down on on the faithful that had gathered before him. After that he read some prayers and took the vestments. We were said it's a rite for people that are ill (probably not only physically, but also spiritually). I think it has something to do with this bleeding woman from the Gospel, who caught Christ's robe and was healed.

Here is the picture of what I've been witness:




I've heard something similar is done in Pochayaveska Lavra (or anotehr famous Ukrainian Orthodox monastery), but mabye really only with a bishop, I don't remember.
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« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2014, 01:36:49 PM »

Again and again, just when you thought you've seen it all...
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« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2014, 02:11:00 PM »

I recall reading that in some countries it's a sort of pious customs to touch and kiss the vestments of a priest. This doesn't seem all that different.
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« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2014, 02:23:16 PM »

This doesn't seem all that different.

It is. 
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« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2014, 02:36:53 PM »

This doesn't seem all that different.

It is. 

Why? I haven't seen that around here but I can imagine it being done. I like that kind of folk piety.
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« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2014, 02:37:17 PM »

it was Metropolitan Elect Demetrios, who is Met. Pavlos' successor in Astoria, NY. 

I do not believe that they are a canonical Orthodox jurisdiction.
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« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2014, 02:44:33 PM »

This doesn't seem all that different.

It is. 

Why? I haven't seen that around here but I can imagine it being done. I like that kind of folk piety.

I make no judgement on "this kind" of folk piety, though I like folk piety in general.  But it seems to me that it's one thing to touch/kiss the fringe of a priest's vestments and quite another for him to take them off (even while he still half-wears some) and lay them on the backs of bowing individuals while prayers and blessings are offered.  Among other things, the latter involves the priest doing things with vestments which probably ought not be done.     
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« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2014, 03:30:33 PM »

This doesn't seem all that different.

It is. 

Why? I haven't seen that around here but I can imagine it being done. I like that kind of folk piety.

I make no judgement on "this kind" of folk piety, though I like folk piety in general.  But it seems to me that it's one thing to touch/kiss the fringe of a priest's vestments and quite another for him to take them off (even while he still half-wears some) and lay them on the backs of bowing individuals while prayers and blessings are offered.  Among other things, the latter involves the priest doing things with vestments which probably ought not be done.     

That, plus the only time that I have seen the kissing of a priest's vestments has been during the Great Entrance procession in an Antiochian church. I was told that it may be due to a misunderstanding that the gifts had already been consecrated. Or, it can be due to the fact that the Great Entrance represents the entry of the Lord into Jerusalem and the priest/bishop is treated as an icon of Christ.
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« Reply #35 on: May 08, 2014, 04:32:07 PM »

it was Metropolitan Elect Demetrios, who is Met. Pavlos' successor in Astoria, NY. 

I do not believe that they are a canonical Orthodox jurisdiction.

You're correct; they're not.
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« Reply #36 on: May 08, 2014, 05:24:29 PM »

This doesn't seem all that different.

It is. 

Why? I haven't seen that around here but I can imagine it being done. I like that kind of folk piety.

I make no judgement on "this kind" of folk piety, though I like folk piety in general.  But it seems to me that it's one thing to touch/kiss the fringe of a priest's vestments and quite another for him to take them off (even while he still half-wears some) and lay them on the backs of bowing individuals while prayers and blessings are offered.  Among other things, the latter involves the priest doing things with vestments which probably ought not be done.     

That, plus the only time that I have seen the kissing of a priest's vestments has been during the Great Entrance procession in an Antiochian church. I was told that it may be due to a misunderstanding that the gifts had already been consecrated. Or, it can be due to the fact that the Great Entrance represents the entry of the Lord into Jerusalem and the priest/bishop is treated as an icon of Christ.

Considering how the mob turned on Christ following Palm Sunday, that seems, well, odd to me.
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« Reply #37 on: May 08, 2014, 05:52:45 PM »

That, plus the only time that I have seen the kissing of a priest's vestments has been during the Great Entrance procession in an Antiochian church. I was told that it may be due to a misunderstanding that the gifts had already been consecrated. Or, it can be due to the fact that the Great Entrance represents the entry of the Lord into Jerusalem and the priest/bishop is treated as an icon of Christ.

Considering how the mob turned on Christ following Palm Sunday, that seems, well, odd to me.

Not really.  The crowds welcomed Christ into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday as God's anointed.  They only clamoured for his death and rejoiced in his murder on Good Friday.  In the same way, the Great Entrance represents Palm Sunday, and the parish council meeting/general assembly is Good Friday.  With what harmony and beauty have our holy fathers ordained and ornamented our Divine Liturgy!   
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« Reply #38 on: May 08, 2014, 06:12:30 PM »

That, plus the only time that I have seen the kissing of a priest's vestments has been during the Great Entrance procession in an Antiochian church. I was told that it may be due to a misunderstanding that the gifts had already been consecrated. Or, it can be due to the fact that the Great Entrance represents the entry of the Lord into Jerusalem and the priest/bishop is treated as an icon of Christ.

Considering how the mob turned on Christ following Palm Sunday, that seems, well, odd to me.

Not really.  The crowds welcomed Christ into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday as God's anointed.  They only clamoured for his death and rejoiced in his murder on Good Friday.  In the same way, the Great Entrance represents Palm Sunday, and the parish council meeting/general assembly is Good Friday.  With what harmony and beauty have our holy fathers ordained and ornamented our Divine Liturgy!   

I never thought of the annual meeting as Good Friday, but then again the prayers of the priests I know when it comes to such matters do echo elements of Matthew 26......
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« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2014, 11:21:16 AM »

it was Metropolitan Elect Demetrios, who is Met. Pavlos' successor in Astoria, NY. 

I do not believe that they are a canonical Orthodox jurisdiction.

Thank you Carl.

why are they NOT considered canonical Orthodox?  Maybe that explains the situation regarding the de-vesting.

Thanks again.
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« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2014, 01:31:43 PM »

Are you talking about Archbishop Demetrios Trakatellis? He is the only Greek Orthodox Bishop in Astoria that I know of and he belongs to the EP. Anyway, to get back to the theme of the original post, folding vestments on the back of another person is odd. Was there no table that he could have used. I have occasionally seen vestments folded on the chairs at the high place and on the Bishop's Throne, if he was not using it. Deacons and servers would use ledges or tables to fold their vestments, and when a bishop is vested, the vestments are on a table or tray and are folded. When he unvests, vestments are also folded on a table in reverse order.

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« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2014, 02:22:19 PM »

Are you talking about Demetrios Trakatellis? He is the only Greek Orthodox Bishop in Astoria that I know of and he belongs to the EP. Anyway, to get back to the theme of the original post, folding vestments on the back of another person is odd. Was there no table that he could have used. I have occasionally seen vestments folded on the chairs at the high place and on the Bishop's Throne, if he was not using it. Deacons and servers would use ledges or tables to fold their vestments, and when a bishop is vested, the vestments are on a table or tray and are folded. When he unvests, vestments are also folded on a table in reverse order.

No, not the GOA Archbishop.  Bp. Demetrios has only been a bishop for about two years for the Greeks, and was recently elected to replace Met. Pavlos S. of Astoria, NY.  They are in communion with Abp. Demetrios T. indirectly.

There were plenty of tables.  Like I said, it looked like a hero worship type of thing, as the people flock to Bp. Demetrios as if he is the last of the elders in Orthodoxy.  Ofcourse, there must be some kind of blessing, otherwise I don't see any justification for it, unless someone can come forward with examples from holy fathers and saints doing the same?
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« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2014, 02:41:12 PM »

OK. There is some confusion here.

Archbishop Demetrios (Traketellis) is head of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

Metropolitan Demetrius (Kiriacou) is Metropolitan of America for the Old Calendarist Greeks not affiliated with what some of us call 'canonical' Orthodoxy and members of that group call 'world' Orthodoxy.

Which one are we talking about. The first Bishop is elderly, the other Bishop is about forty years old.
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« Reply #43 on: May 09, 2014, 02:46:25 PM »

OK. There is some confusion here.

Archbishop Demetrios (Traketellis) is head of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

Metropolitan Demetrius (Kiriacou) is Metropolitan of America for the Old Calendarist Greeks not affiliated with what some of us call 'canonical' Orthodoxy and members of that group call 'world' Orthodoxy.

Which one are we talking about. The first Bishop is elderly, the other Bishop is about forty years old.

We are NOT talking about the Archbishop of the GOA.

the only affiliation is that the jurisdiction of Bp. Demetrios does give communion to the faithful of Abp. Demetrios of the GOA
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« Reply #44 on: May 09, 2014, 03:13:22 PM »

OK. There is some confusion here.

Archbishop Demetrios (Traketellis) is head of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

Metropolitan Demetrius (Kiriacou) is Metropolitan of America for the Old Calendarist Greeks not affiliated with what some of us call 'canonical' Orthodoxy and members of that group call 'world' Orthodoxy.

Which one are we talking about. The first Bishop is elderly, the other Bishop is about forty years old.

We are NOT talking about the Archbishop of the GOA.

the only affiliation is that the jurisdiction of Bp. Demetrios does give communion to the faithful of Abp. Demetrios of the GOA

Perhaps Jonathan Gress might comment upon this communion issue? or non-issue - whatever it is...
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« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2014, 03:17:48 PM »

based on the picture....that isnt the elderly one....Wink
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« Reply #46 on: May 09, 2014, 03:40:26 PM »

Met Jona was serving at our Church ( Rocor).. I was tasked with his hand washing while he stood in the Royal Doors and I am just outside. I dose his hands ...but then he flicks the water into my face..

So I am like    WTF... If you don't like me just tell me ...etc. ( not out loud  Smiley

He later explained that after a Bishop washes his hands the water is now sanctified so he was giving me a blessing with Holy Water.... Learn something new ever day.
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« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2014, 05:21:09 PM »

Are you talking about Demetrios Trakatellis? He is the only Greek Orthodox Bishop in Astoria that I know of and he belongs to the EP. Anyway, to get back to the theme of the original post, folding vestments on the back of another person is odd. Was there no table that he could have used. I have occasionally seen vestments folded on the chairs at the high place and on the Bishop's Throne, if he was not using it. Deacons and servers would use ledges or tables to fold their vestments, and when a bishop is vested, the vestments are on a table or tray and are folded. When he unvests, vestments are also folded on a table in reverse order.

No, not the GOA Archbishop.  Bp. Demetrios has only been a bishop for about two years for the Greeks, and was recently elected to replace Met. Pavlos S. of Astoria, NY.  They are in communion with Abp. Demetrios T. indirectly.

There were plenty of tables.  Like I said, it looked like a hero worship type of thing, as the people flock to Bp. Demetrios as if he is the last of the elders in Orthodoxy.  Ofcourse, there must be some kind of blessing, otherwise I don't see any justification for it, unless someone can come forward with examples from holy fathers and saints doing the same?


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« Reply #48 on: May 09, 2014, 05:50:36 PM »

Well, I've seen something maybe a bit similar, but with "usual" priest, in Moldova.
Right after Liturgy the priest came out from the iconostasis and started putting out his vestments and laying them down on on the faithful that had gathered before him. After that he read some prayers and took the vestments. We were said it's a rite for people that are ill (probably not only physically, but also spiritually). I think it has something to do with this bleeding woman from the Gospel, who caught Christ's robe and was healed.

Here is the picture of what I've been witness:




I've heard something similar is done in Pochayaveska Lavra (or anotehr famous Ukrainian Orthodox monastery), but mabye really only with a bishop, I don't remember.

Yes, this is it.  Thank you so much for sharing.  I knew there must have been some good reason for this, as everyone is sick to some extent.
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« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2014, 01:54:40 AM »

This doesn't seem all that different.

It is. 

Why? I haven't seen that around here but I can imagine it being done. I like that kind of folk piety.

I make no judgement on "this kind" of folk piety, though I like folk piety in general.  But it seems to me that it's one thing to touch/kiss the fringe of a priest's vestments and quite another for him to take them off (even while he still half-wears some) and lay them on the backs of bowing individuals while prayers and blessings are offered.  Among other things, the latter involves the priest doing things with vestments which probably ought not be done.     

That, plus the only time that I have seen the kissing of a priest's vestments has been during the Great Entrance procession in an Antiochian church. I was told that it may be due to a misunderstanding that the gifts had already been consecrated. Or, it can be due to the fact that the Great Entrance represents the entry of the Lord into Jerusalem and the priest/bishop is treated as an icon of Christ.

The Antiochian custom of touching the Priest's vestments during the Great Entrance, comes from the woman who was healed by touching the hem of the robe of Christ.

Fr. John W. Morris.
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« Reply #50 on: May 10, 2014, 02:04:14 AM »

This doesn't seem all that different.

It is.  

Why? I haven't seen that around here but I can imagine it being done. I like that kind of folk piety.

I make no judgement on "this kind" of folk piety, though I like folk piety in general.  But it seems to me that it's one thing to touch/kiss the fringe of a priest's vestments and quite another for him to take them off (even while he still half-wears some) and lay them on the backs of bowing individuals while prayers and blessings are offered.  Among other things, the latter involves the priest doing things with vestments which probably ought not be done.      

That, plus the only time that I have seen the kissing of a priest's vestments has been during the Great Entrance procession in an Antiochian church. I was told that it may be due to a misunderstanding that the gifts had already been consecrated. Or, it can be due to the fact that the Great Entrance represents the entry of the Lord into Jerusalem and the priest/bishop is treated as an icon of Christ.

The Antiochian custom of touching the Priest's vestments during the Great Entrance, comes from the woman who was healed by touching the hem of the robe of Christ.

Fr. John W. Morris.

It is not only an Antiochian custom, it is also seen in Greek churches. The Russian version is reaching out and touching the strips of ribbon trailing from the four corners of the plashchanitsa (epitaphion) during its solemn procession from the altar to the nave during Vespers of Great Friday; the priest's vestments are sometimes also touched during this procession, as can also happen during the bringing out of the Cross during the eves of the two feasts of the Cross, during Great Lent and on September 14.

The most likely reason why Russians do not touch the vestments at the Great Entrance is because this procession is conducted from the northern deacon's door, onto the solea, and through the Royal Doors, not down the northern aisle and up the central aisle.
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« Reply #51 on: May 15, 2014, 10:19:53 PM »

fish n chips  police
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« Reply #52 on: May 31, 2014, 04:37:43 AM »

Reminds me of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_bishop

Quote
Boy bishop was a name given to a custom very widespread in the Middle Ages, whereby a boy was chosen, for example among cathedral choristers, to parody the real bishop, commonly on the feast of Holy Innocents. This custom was linked with others, such as that of the Feast of Fools and the Feast of Asses.
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« Reply #53 on: June 02, 2014, 01:48:41 PM »

This doesn't seem all that different.

It is.  

Why? I haven't seen that around here but I can imagine it being done. I like that kind of folk piety.

I make no judgement on "this kind" of folk piety, though I like folk piety in general.  But it seems to me that it's one thing to touch/kiss the fringe of a priest's vestments and quite another for him to take them off (even while he still half-wears some) and lay them on the backs of bowing individuals while prayers and blessings are offered.  Among other things, the latter involves the priest doing things with vestments which probably ought not be done.      

That, plus the only time that I have seen the kissing of a priest's vestments has been during the Great Entrance procession in an Antiochian church. I was told that it may be due to a misunderstanding that the gifts had already been consecrated. Or, it can be due to the fact that the Great Entrance represents the entry of the Lord into Jerusalem and the priest/bishop is treated as an icon of Christ.

The Antiochian custom of touching the Priest's vestments during the Great Entrance, comes from the woman who was healed by touching the hem of the robe of Christ.

Fr. John W. Morris.

It is not only an Antiochian custom, it is also seen in Greek churches. The Russian version is reaching out and touching the strips of ribbon trailing from the four corners of the plashchanitsa (epitaphion) during its solemn procession from the altar to the nave during Vespers of Great Friday; the priest's vestments are sometimes also touched during this procession, as can also happen during the bringing out of the Cross during the eves of the two feasts of the Cross, during Great Lent and on September 14.

The most likely reason why Russians do not touch the vestments at the Great Entrance is because this procession is conducted from the northern deacon's door, onto the solea, and through the Royal Doors, not down the northern aisle and up the central aisle.

Excellent point!
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« Reply #54 on: June 02, 2014, 06:56:42 PM »

Reminds me of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_bishop

Quote
Boy bishop was a name given to a custom very widespread in the Middle Ages, whereby a boy was chosen, for example among cathedral choristers, to parody the real bishop, commonly on the feast of Holy Innocents. This custom was linked with others, such as that of the Feast of Fools and the Feast of Asses.

Ah, what we have lost.
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« Reply #55 on: June 02, 2014, 07:07:51 PM »

Reminds me of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_bishop

Quote
Boy bishop was a name given to a custom very widespread in the Middle Ages, whereby a boy was chosen, for example among cathedral choristers, to parody the real bishop, commonly on the feast of Holy Innocents. This custom was linked with others, such as that of the Feast of Fools and the Feast of Asses.

Ah, what we have lost.

Boy bishops? St. Athanasius leads us astray yet again!
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« Reply #56 on: June 02, 2014, 07:12:02 PM »

Please, explain the meaning behind the priest/bishop de-vesting as described above.   

I've never heard of such a custom (folding vestments on the backs of bowing faithful at the end of Liturgy).  It is certainly not in any liturgical books or part of any formal rite.  The closest thing I can think of is an Indian custom which I doubt is at play here.  Maybe what you witnessed is some bizarre village custom; such things exist.

 

Folding vestments on the floor and prostrating on them? I saw that when I visited.
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« Reply #57 on: June 02, 2014, 07:17:07 PM »

Folding vestments on the floor and prostrating on them? I saw that when I visited.

That's not the Indian custom I had in mind.  What you describe is most likely a combination of a) the usual way of folding one's tonia (I'm using your word Tongue) and b) someone's personal piety. 
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« Reply #58 on: June 02, 2014, 07:24:48 PM »

Folding vestments on the floor and prostrating on them? I saw that when I visited.

That's not the Indian custom I had in mind.  What you describe is most likely a combination of a) the usual way of folding one's tonia (I'm using your word Tongue) and b) someone's personal piety. 

a) thank you
b) guess they're very pious
The Achen(now we're even) and the acolytes (no one had uroros(I'm ahead) on so I don't know if there were other ranks present) all folded their vestments like so.
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« Reply #59 on: June 02, 2014, 07:29:31 PM »

The Achen(now we're even) and the acolytes (no one had uroros(I'm ahead) on so I don't know if there were other ranks present) all folded their vestments like so.

If there were other ranks present, they would've worn their appropriate vestments.  We don't regard vestments as "optional", as contemporary Coptic practice seems to regard them. 
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« Reply #60 on: June 02, 2014, 07:30:38 PM »


If there were other ranks present, they would've worn their appropriate vestments.  We don't regard vestments as "optional", as contemporary Coptic practice seems to regard them

*Single manly tear*
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« Reply #61 on: June 02, 2014, 07:46:06 PM »

Would it be too wrong to call the custom something like Byzantine strip-tease? 
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« Reply #62 on: June 02, 2014, 07:52:29 PM »

Would it be too wrong to call the custom something like Byzantine strip-tease? 

I'm surprised you even bothered to ask about wrongness.  Tongue
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« Reply #63 on: June 03, 2014, 09:22:47 AM »

It's only striptease if the parishioners drop a few more dollars into the offering basket afterwards.  Or pay off their candle debts.
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« Reply #64 on: June 03, 2014, 09:28:47 AM »

It's only striptease if the parishioners drop a few more dollars into the offering basket afterwards.  Or pay off their candle debts.
Your supposed to pay that off?  Ohh boy...
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« Reply #65 on: June 03, 2014, 09:46:28 AM »

It's only striptease if the parishioners drop a few more dollars into the offering basket afterwards.  Or pay off their candle debts.
Your supposed to pay that off?  Ohh boy...

Yeah, I know your kind....pretending to put money in the box and taking 5 candles.
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« Reply #66 on: June 03, 2014, 10:55:51 AM »

it was Metropolitan Elect Demetrios, who is Met. Pavlos' successor in Astoria, NY. 

The only time I saw this before was with the same Bp. Demetrius after a service in a HOCNA parish when he was still with them.  I'm not sure of the origin or history of the practice, but I thought it showed a great deal of reverence on the part of the faithful for their bishop. 
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« Reply #67 on: October 14, 2014, 02:11:26 PM »







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« Reply #68 on: October 14, 2014, 03:54:46 PM »

It's only striptease if the parishioners drop a few more dollars into the offering basket afterwards.  Or pay off their candle debts.
Your supposed to pay that off?  Ohh boy...

Yeah, I know your kind....pretending to put money in the box and taking 5 candles.

No, 4 candles.
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« Reply #69 on: October 14, 2014, 05:41:35 PM »









Tossing vestments?

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« Reply #70 on: October 14, 2014, 05:44:39 PM »

What is the meaning - symbolism?

From the previous description I expected maybe a few people, but this seems to be the whole parish and he is tossing them.

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« Reply #71 on: October 14, 2014, 05:56:38 PM »

Very interesting discussion.

People placed their garments on the ground to pave the way for Christ's Entrance into Jerusalem.

The Bishop (representing Christ) is tossing his blessed vestments onto the faithful.
This is a blessing.
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« Reply #72 on: October 14, 2014, 06:00:57 PM »

Very interesting discussion.

People placed their garments on the ground to pave the way for Christ's Entrance into Jerusalem.

The Bishop (representing Christ) is tossing his blessed vestments onto the faithful.
This is a blessing.


Bishops make pastoral visits a lot.  I have never seen photos like the above when a bishop makes his visit.  I would expect other bishops to do this sometimes as well.

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« Reply #73 on: October 14, 2014, 06:14:25 PM »

Very interesting discussion.

People placed their garments on the ground to pave the way for Christ's Entrance into Jerusalem.

The Bishop (representing Christ) is tossing his blessed vestments onto the faithful.
This is a blessing.


Bishops make pastoral visits a lot.  I have never seen photos like the above when a bishop makes his visit.  I would expect other bishops to do this sometimes as well.



I have never seen any bishop toss his vestments on the faithful. It could be a bit risky with one of the smaller vestments landing on the ground. Most likely this is why older bishops have not done this.
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« Reply #74 on: October 15, 2014, 10:17:20 AM »

it was Metropolitan Elect Demetrios, who is Met. Pavlos' successor in Astoria, NY. 

HOTCA?

For purposes of clarification, there is no such jurisdiction as "HOTCA." That is a legal name of a non-profit corporation dating back to the 1970s. The website URL reflects that, for various reasons that would bore you, but suffice it to say, we would prefer to have goc.org (which points to us, but is registered anonymously, and we can't get in contact with the owner) or some other URL. For now, we keep hotca.org, but the jurisdiction is simply the Church of the Genuine Orthodox Christians of America, an autonomous Eparchial Synod whose primate, Metropolitan Demetrius (Kyriakou) is a member of the Holy Synod of the Church of the GOC of Greece.
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« Reply #75 on: October 15, 2014, 10:21:12 AM »

it was Metropolitan Elect Demetrios, who is Met. Pavlos' successor in Astoria, NY. 

I do not believe that they are a canonical Orthodox jurisdiction.

The dubiousness of the "canonical" adjective aside, it's irrelevant to the discussion. Unlike say vagantes who make stuff up all the time, the practices of Old Calendarists are identical to official Orthodoxy, except where the latter has deviated from earlier practice.

Oftentimes, practices in Old Calendarist jurisdictions reflect pious customs of a particular region of the Old world, however, owing to the smaller, more insular nature of Old Calendarist parishes and communities, and the way such practices continue on in the New World by the immigrants. But it's certainly not the case that because we are separate from you, we are creating our own stuff (like vagantes do).
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« Reply #76 on: October 15, 2014, 10:27:54 AM »

OK. There is some confusion here.

Archbishop Demetrios (Traketellis) is head of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

Metropolitan Demetrius (Kiriacou) is Metropolitan of America for the Old Calendarist Greeks not affiliated with what some of us call 'canonical' Orthodoxy and members of that group call 'world' Orthodoxy.

Which one are we talking about. The first Bishop is elderly, the other Bishop is about forty years old.

We are NOT talking about the Archbishop of the GOA.

the only affiliation is that the jurisdiction of Bp. Demetrios does give communion to the faithful of Abp. Demetrios of the GOA

No, we do not give communion to New Calendarists, although the founder of St. Markella's, Metropolitan Petros of Astoria, did. This practice was phased out as the division between the Old and New Calendar Churches became more pronounced, Ecumenism increased, and the general level of knowledge of the Greek people in Astoria increased to the point that Metropolitan Petros's approach no longer bore the fruit it used to, in terms of bringing people into the Old Calendar Church. The practices of Metropolitan Petros are described in my book, Metropolitan Petros of Astoria: A Microcosm of the Old Calendar Movement in America (available for the low price of 7.99 print/4.99 eBook, please consider purchasing to help me support my family!!), and I address the charge that his successor, Metropolitan Pavlos, willy-nilly continued the practice (which is not true) in a response I made to the troublemaking soi-disant Archbishop Gregory of Colorado:

Quote
In part as a result of the interview, the GOC Synod made certain demands of Fr. Pavlos, should he be ordained a bishop, such as that he stop communing New Calendarists at St. Markella’s Cathedral and reiterate his Orthodox confession of faith, which he did. He made several good faith efforts to stop the communing of New Calendarists at St. Markella’s, such as promulgating a 2002 Encyclical[12] which forbade the practice.

There were some serious pastoral concerns, however, which mitigated a vocal and public approach at St. Markella’s. The preferred approach at the cathedral was to address these concerns in private. There were also some people who continued to slip through the cracks here and there, but what is clear is that these were exceptions in some cases and mistakes in others (such as when people misrepresented themselves, and were not properly investigated by the clergy beforehand).[13] Metropolitan Pavlos retired in 2013, at any rate, and his successor Metropolitan Demetrius has made it clear that any vestigial exceptions to policy occurring at the cathedral should and must cease. At his enthronement in May 2014, a clear message was read before Holy Communion that to approach, one must be a member of the Holy Synod of Archbishop Kallinikos, or one of our sister Churches.
Source: "A Response to Some Distortions by Archbishop Gregory Concerning the GOC."

I hope this clears things up.

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« Reply #77 on: October 15, 2014, 10:35:05 AM »

For what it's worth, I have never seen this happen at my parish.
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« Reply #78 on: October 15, 2014, 12:00:14 PM »

Unlike say vagantes who make stuff up all the time, the practices of Old Calendarists are identical to official Orthodoxy, except where the latter has deviated from earlier practice.
Is there anywhere I could find a list of these differences?
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« Reply #79 on: October 15, 2014, 02:57:22 PM »

Unlike say vagantes who make stuff up all the time, the practices of Old Calendarists are identical to official Orthodoxy, except where the latter has deviated from earlier practice.
Is there anywhere I could find a list of these differences?

You would no doubt get a different list with very different explanations, depending on the source. The problem with the "deviating from earlier sources" argument, as I view it, is just when does one arbitrarily determine what epoch was most "authentic."  Should we pick say 1014 AD and remove modern icon screens? Who determines what is a "deviation" and under what individual authority? It's a very slippery slope.
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« Reply #80 on: October 15, 2014, 03:31:13 PM »

You would no doubt get a different list with very different explanations, depending on the source. The problem with the "deviating from earlier sources" argument, as I view it, is just when does one arbitrarily determine what epoch was most "authentic."  Should we pick say 1014 AD and remove modern icon screens? Who determines what is a "deviation" and under what individual authority? It's a very slippery slope.
Well, he didn't say "more authentic", he just said "earlier". Old Calendarists have never claimed to revive anything ancient, to my knowledge; they claim only to be the authentic successors of the Church of Greece before its imposition of the New Calendar in the 1920s. So all I'd expect to hear would be differences between Greek Orthodox practice at the beginning of the 20th century and Greek Orthodox practice now. For example: Greek Old Calendarists still use only the single orarion for regular deacons (link), but they also use the same Violakis Typicon as their New Calendar counterparts, since that was put into place decades before the calendar schism, and therefore use only Vespers and Matins, not the full Vigil and Little Hours.
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« Reply #81 on: October 15, 2014, 03:36:16 PM »

You would no doubt get a different list with very different explanations, depending on the source. The problem with the "deviating from earlier sources" argument, as I view it, is just when does one arbitrarily determine what epoch was most "authentic."  Should we pick say 1014 AD and remove modern icon screens? Who determines what is a "deviation" and under what individual authority? It's a very slippery slope.
Well, he didn't say "more authentic", he just said "earlier". Old Calendarists have never claimed to revive anything ancient, to my knowledge; they claim only to be the authentic successors of the Church of Greece before its imposition of the New Calendar in the 1920s. So all I'd expect to hear would be differences between Greek Orthodox practice at the beginning of the 20th century and Greek Orthodox practice now. For example: Greek Old Calendarists still use only the single orarion for regular deacons (link), but they also use the same Violakis Typicon as their New Calendar counterparts, since that was put into place decades before the calendar schism, and therefore use only Vespers and Matins, not the full Vigil and Little Hours.

I repeat my earlier point, which is what makes one period more 'authentic' than another and just who - outside of the consensus of the Church through its duly enthroned hierarchs - is entitled to make such 'decisions.' We are getting close to an argument here which is prohibited by the rules of the forum and I don't desire to cross that line.
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« Reply #82 on: October 15, 2014, 04:29:21 PM »

I understand your point, podkarpatska. All I'm saying is, the liturgical differences between Greek parishes on either side of the calendar schism provide a way of looking at when certain liturgical changes happened, and what liturgy looked like at the beginning of the 20th century. I have no more interest in rejecting present (New Calendar) practice in favour of theirs than I have in rejecting the New Rite in favour of the Russian Old Rite, and I don't think Anastasios does either; he was just trying to distinguish the particular practices of his church from the novelties of "vagante churches".
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« Reply #83 on: October 15, 2014, 04:44:33 PM »

I understand your point, podkarpatska. All I'm saying is, the liturgical differences between Greek parishes on either side of the calendar schism provide a way of looking at when certain liturgical changes happened, and what liturgy looked like at the beginning of the 20th century. I have no more interest in rejecting present (New Calendar) practice in favour of theirs than I have in rejecting the New Rite in favour of the Russian Old Rite, and I don't think Anastasios does either; he was just trying to distinguish the particular practices of his church from the novelties of "vagante churches".

I understand that about Anastasios, but I felt it necessary to point out that there is a danger in so-called 'restorationism' which is a fad among some in what you and I would consider to be canonical Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #84 on: October 15, 2014, 07:52:08 PM »

Unlike say vagantes who make stuff up all the time, the practices of Old Calendarists are identical to official Orthodoxy, except where the latter has deviated from earlier practice.
Is there anywhere I could find a list of these differences?

You would no doubt get a different list with very different explanations, depending on the source. The problem with the "deviating from earlier sources" argument, as I view it, is just when does one arbitrarily determine what epoch was most "authentic."  Should we pick say 1014 AD and remove modern icon screens? Who determines what is a "deviation" and under what individual authority? It's a very slippery slope.

I'm talking about really obvious things like all the experimentation that happened at St. Vladimir's in the 1960s and 1970s, or what happens at New Skete. Stuff that is not part of the consensus of the Church, stuff that a committee sat down and made up--sometimes with good intentions, but sometimes deliberately to introduce change in what they considered to be "later accretions." Stuff like choirs with people wearing Protestant robes playing on organs. Stuff that is not part of the received Tradition.
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