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Author Topic: Orthodox patriarchs at the funeral of John Paul II, Bishop of Rome  (Read 3576 times) Average Rating: 0
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rusty
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« on: April 09, 2005, 10:51:33 AM »

At the funeral service, in attendance there were both Eastern Rite Catholic patriarchs and Orthodox patriarchs and metropolitans.

From the TV and media coverage, I'm still not clear whether the patriarchs chanting by the coffin of his Holiness in Greek and in Arabic (at least I think it was Arabic) were or were not in communion with Rome.  As I was watching the recorded (rather than live) coverage, there was translation of some parts of the chants and the Pope was referred to as "Pope of Rome", so I'm thinking they were Orthodox.  It's just that one of the partriarchs had a censer that got me thinking that those chanting were in communion with Rome.

I'd appreciate information from anybody who knows whether or not they were in communion with Rome.  Thanks.
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« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2005, 11:38:58 AM »

Dear Rusty:

Based on our on-going discussions at another Forum on Byzantine Christianity (Catholic and Orthodox) on the same subject, it seems that all those who participated in the incantation of the Eastern litany/prayers were Eastern Catholic hierarchs, or at least a majority of them.

The Patriarch of the Coptic Catholics of Alexandria, HB Cardinal Ghattas, was the hierarch censing the coffin of Pope John Paul II.

But a large delegation of the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches were in attendance, led by EP Bartholomew I of Constantinople. See the list I posted below at the Orthodox-Catholic subforum.

Amado
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« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2005, 11:42:38 AM »

[At the funeral service, in attendance there were both Eastern Rite Catholic patriarchs and Orthodox patriarchs and metropolitans.]

The only Orthodox Patriarch I saw in attendance was the EP.  What other Orthodox Patriarchs were also there?

Orthodoc

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« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2005, 11:45:47 AM »

The clerics by the coffin were all Eastern Catholic. The prominent figure in the middle of the line who was reciting the Greek prayers was the Melchite patriarch. The Xristos Anesti was chanted in Greek and Arabic.

Orthodox patriarchs were present observing.

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« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2005, 12:29:20 PM »

[Orthodox patriarchs were present observing.]

Once again, I only saw one Patriarch.  The EP.  The rest were various Metropolitans but not Patriarchs.  It's inaccurate to state that all the Orthodox Patriarchs attendented except Alexi or there were more than one Orthodox Patriarch in attendance.

How many Orthodox Patriarchal funerals has a Pope ever attended?

Orthodoc.
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« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2005, 03:11:23 PM »

Looking at the list in the Catholic-Orthodox forum, it seems there were 3 Armenian patriarchs there.  I know I saw one of them on T.V. yesterday.  The Armenians have four patriarchs, and the ones I think were there were the Catholicos of Etchmiadzin (our supreme patriarch,) the Catholicos of Cilicia and the Armenian Patriarch of Istanbul.
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« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2005, 04:55:50 PM »

I watched the whole funeral live from 4 A.M to about 7 A.M. (EST) and I must say the most moving part was the Eastern Rite Catholics chanting and censing. The Litany of the Saints was quite beautiful as well. 
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« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2005, 06:04:39 PM »

I don't understand much Latin but I clearly heard the names of St. Basil the Great, St. John Chrysostom, and St. Gregory the Thelogian among the "Eastern" saints in the Litany chanted by the Roman Deacon.

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« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2005, 06:29:43 PM »

I don't understand much Latin but I clearly heard the names of St. Basil the Great, St. John Chrysostom, and St. Gregory the Thelogian among the "Eastern" saints in the Litany chanted by the Roman Deacon.

Amado

Me too.  I was surprised at how much I understood.  Is St. Gregory the Theologian from Nazaiazen?  I thought I heard Nazianzen.  It's nice how prayerful and beautiful Gregorian Chant can be when it is done well.
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« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2005, 06:46:32 PM »

Dear Elisha:

Yes, St. Gregory of Nazianzen is also known as "the Theologian," tutor to St. John Chrysostom!

Relics of both Saints were returned just recently by Pope John Paul II to Constanstantinople.

Amado
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« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2005, 07:45:41 PM »

Based on our on-going discussions at another Forum on Byzantine Christianity (Catholic and Orthodox) on the same subject, it seems that all those who participated in the incantation of the Eastern litany/prayers were Eastern Catholic hierarchs, or at least a majority of them.

It would be interesting to know which Orthodox hierarchs, if any, were participating in the incantation of the Eastern litany/prayers.

The reason why I thought, on one hand, that they might have been Orthodox was the chanter's reference to John Paul II as "Pope of Rome" rather than as "Pope".
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« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2005, 09:03:09 PM »

[It would be interesting to know which Orthodox hierarchs, if any, were participating in the incantation of the Eastern litany/prayers.]

None of those participating in the Panikhida (Eastern litany/prayers) were Orthodox. They all belonged to Eastern Rites within the papal Catholic Church.

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« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2005, 09:24:00 PM »

They were all Roman Catholics of the Eastern Rite.

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« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2005, 05:29:06 AM »

Looking at the list in the Catholic-Orthodox forum, it seems there were 3 Armenian patriarchs there. I know I saw one of them on T.V. yesterday. The Armenians have four patriarchs, and the ones I think were there were the Catholicos of Etchmiadzin (our supreme patriarch,) the Catholicos of Cilicia and the Armenian Patriarch of Istanbul.

Salpy,

According to the official list of attendees, the Supreme Catolicos of Holy Etchmiadzin was there, as well as the Catolicos of the Great House of Cilicia, and the Armenian Patriarchs of both Jerusalem and Constantinople.

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2005, 05:34:40 AM »

[Orthodox patriarchs were present observing.]

Once again, I only saw one Patriarch. The EP. The rest were various Metropolitans but not Patriarchs. It's inaccurate to state that all the Orthodox Patriarchs attendented except Alexi or there were more than one Orthodox Patriarch in attendance.

Orthodoc,

The EP was the only Eastern Orthodox Patriarch present.  The Armenian Patriarchs, the Ethiopian Patriarch, and the Assyrian Patriarchs were also present.

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2005, 06:41:05 AM »

"Furthermore, the chanting of 'Christ is Risen' provocatively during the recent funeral of the Pope by those who persist in the deceit of Uniatism was an unbearable mockery, especially during a worship service. For, if we do not live the rest of the hymn which states 'by death trampling upon death', then our singing of 'Christ is Risen' is in vain."
From the 2005 Easter Message of Archbishop Stylianos of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia. The emphasis is his, not mine.

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« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2005, 09:03:11 AM »

And how does the Arhbishop know how the Eastern Catholic hierachs are not living the rest of the hymn?  Quite presumptuous of man who should be worried about how his brother bishops in Greece are living it.
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« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2005, 09:07:46 AM »

And how does the Arhbishop know how the Eastern Catholic hierachs are not living the rest of the hymn? Quite presumptuous of man who should be worried about how his brother bishops in Greece are living it.
I think you are the one who is being presumptuous. If you read the context in the link, you will see he is addressing his own flock, and not accusing the Eastern Catholics of anything other than deceit.
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« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2005, 11:03:50 AM »

He took a cheap shot at Eastern Catholics mourning their Pope in their own tradition during his Pascha sermon, entirely inappropriate.
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« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2005, 11:23:00 AM »

I am no fan or defender of the Uniats. But, good heavens, I see nothing wrong with them singing "Christ is Risen" at the Pope's funeral. JPII was, after all, their supreme archbishop and pastor. For an Orthodox bishop to criticize this seems remarkably small and petty to me. I would expect better.
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« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2005, 11:55:24 AM »

I am no fan or defender of the Uniats. But, good heavens, I see nothing wrong with them singing "Christ is Risen" at the Pope's funeral. JPII was, after all, their supreme archbishop and pastor. For an Orthodox bishop to criticize this seems remarkably small and petty to me. I would expect better.

I second that all the way. But one has to take into consideration who this Greek Bishop is. He is the same Greek Bishop that took a hissy fit at the Orthodox-Catholic consultation held in Baltimore a few years back.

Apparently he took offense at the OCA being present and forbid the miraculous Sitka Icon to be present at the conference since it was under the protection of what he referred to as non canonical schmatics. He is hardly the Icon of Orthodox virtue and love. But he will have to answer for his actions some day.  One has to consider the source.

My initial reaction was that it was out of place. But as I listed to the RC narrator mistraslate both at the beginning and the end of the service. If I was an "Eastern Catholic not in union with Orthodoxy' would have been highly insulted! Why didn't they have someone representing their so called 'Eastern Rite' translating?

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« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2005, 11:59:34 AM »

Why didn't they have someone representing their so called 'Eastern Rite'  translating?

An EXCELLENT point! I noticed the completely wrong translation of it myself.
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« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2005, 09:38:54 AM »

My initial reaction was that it was out of place. But as I listed to the RC narrator mistraslate both at the beginning and the end of the service. If I was an "Eastern Catholic not in union with Orthodoxy' would have been highly insulted! Why didn't they have someone representing their so called 'Eastern Rite' translating?

Bob and Tikhon,

Christos Anesti!

Thank you both for the kind sentiments regarding the appropriateness of our Patriarchs and bishops chanting .

You both know, as well do I, that television networks (be they EWTN or any of the commercial ones) don't employ any particular logic or much common sense in selecting folks to narrate on occasions such as these.  (Quite honestly, if they had foregone the narrator altogether it would have been no loss.)  Just imagine, had the Funeral Service of His Eminence Iakovos, of blessed memory, been televised (and I wish it had been), what a mess they'd have made of that.  Let it be a skating competition and they bring in an expert, let it be an ecclesiastical celebration and they bring in whomever might be handy that can tell a patriarch from an imam.

I'd have bothered to be insulted, but there are more important things in life than letting them get under my skin - so, I instead shrugged it off. 

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2005, 09:47:47 AM »

I think you are the one who is being presumptuous. If you read the context in the link, you will see he is addressing his own flock, and not accusing the Eastern Catholics of anything other than deceit.

George,

Christos Anesti!

With all due respect, the swipe at Eastern Catholics aside, I found the Archbishop's Pascal Message to be an almost disjointed collection of thoughts that could best be described as a "rant".  In the last couple of days, I've had occasion to read the Paschal messages of several Orthodox hierarchs; Archbishop Stylianos' was the only one that I would have to describe as unedifying.

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2005, 09:52:17 AM »

The reason why I thought, on one hand, that they might have been Orthodox was the chanter's reference to John Paul II as "Pope of Rome" rather than as "Pope".

Rusty,

That is how the Pope is commemorated in the Diptychs during the Liturgies of most of our Churches,

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2005, 10:45:47 AM »

To those Orthodox who continue to carp about the "impropriety" of the presence of Orthodox hierarchs and/or of the chanting by Eastern CATHOLIC hierarchs of the Eastern prayers at the funeral Mass of the late Pope John Paul II, please consider these:

The funeral of our Pope would have gone on with or without the presence of the Orthodox hierarchs. Sincere invitations were sent probably to all Orthodox Churches (Oriental and Eastern ) for official representaitons (due to limited space). Many sent, and some did not send,  their delegations. Other religious confessions were there: Jews, Muslims, Protestants, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, etc., you name it.
 
Because of the presence of delegations of so many countries, which opted to send their reigning monarchs, Chiefs of State and/or heads of governments, top concern was the security of all.  Imagine, JP2's funeral drew the largest gathering of the world's leaders in modern times in a single confined space. It was a security nightmare which, thanks to NATO, with Italy and the U.S. taking the lead in providing the necessary personnel and materiel, was handled without a hitch but discreetly. A "dirty bomb" could have wiped out at least 80% of the current leadership of the world!

Frankly, this should be a non-issue for the Orthodox as the funeral was entirely a Catholic event (but which was uncannily perceived by almost all as an event of Christendom), unless we are willing to suggest that the Eastern Churches, regardless of affiliation, should have participated in the farewell ceremonies for one of their own as Christians?

Amado







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