Author Topic: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?  (Read 7483 times)

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Offline Ai

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What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« on: January 28, 2015, 05:55:01 PM »
 My only trouble is dealing with other Christians who don't understand Orthodoxy AT ALL. I have a friend who is now attending a non-denominational church and is telling me that Orthodoxy is just man-made religion and that God can only be found in non-denominational churches. The first thing I learned is that the we know where the Holy Spirit is but we do not know where the Holy Spirit is not. Has anyone ever seen the video I love Jesus but I hate religion? (It's on youtube in case nobody has seen it). This is exactly the type of people Im dealing with. It gets tiring hearing this over and over again. From everything that I have been learning about, nothing my friend says is even true.

 ???
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Offline biro

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2015, 06:21:04 PM »
Non-denominational churches are man-made.

Give them a booklet? Ask them to Vespers? Show them some photos from a liturgy?

Hope it helps. :)
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2015, 08:09:37 PM »
Also, ask them where were the non-denominational churches in 1600? 1200? 800?

If they bring up names like George Whitefield or Jonathan Edwards, remind them that those guys did belong to denominations.

Non-denominationalism (and ecumenism, which is very closely related) both originated on the American frontier in the mid-19th century. This partly occurred as a result of small towns having 2 or 3 people each in several different denominations, so instead of having a separate church for each one, they would have one community church that de-emphasized doctrine in favor of pietism and emotionalism.
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Offline mike

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2015, 08:12:12 PM »
Don't argue about religion with him.
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Offline sakura95

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2015, 08:25:23 PM »
Remind your friend that the non denominationalists are literally still independent denominations whether they like it or not. Also, there isn't such a thing as "I love Jesus and hate religion" amongst the Early Christians. But some form of it certainly existed amongst the Gnostics.
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Offline eddybear

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2015, 08:27:08 PM »
Your friend has probably been taught a lot of lies about Orthodoxy (and Catholicism at a guess). It will potentially take a long time for him to unlearn them, and he/she may not be ready to start that process yet. Pray for him/her, answer questions politely, allow him/her to disagree with you without taking offence, and show by your life what your faith means to you.

Offline Peacemaker

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2015, 09:16:41 PM »
Ask them to "come and see." People come and go and sometimes there comes a point in your life when you need to make a choice. Either stay around them and continue to show the love of Christ by how you act (not preach at them) or you turn and walk away. You aren't going to get anywhere by telling them why they are wrong and why you are right. "Preaching at people" doesn't help you or them. If you can live with looking pass the ignorance and keep showing them love through your actions, than more power to you.

Sadly all my friends ended up walking away from me because they said the bible is modern and "adapts with the times." They thought I was stuck in some "old and outdated" way of worship with my "weird prayers" and crossing myself. I was dubbed a bad influence, so they left. It was hard at first, but I have so many wonderful Orthodox friends now! I am very grateful for all God has given me - for as unworthy as I am.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 09:18:46 PM by Peacemaker »

Offline Tommelomsky

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2015, 09:25:40 PM »
Come and see for yourself.
Many priests, bishops and others have said so.

Looking back like, hmm..three and half years ago..I was so curious about Orthodoxy. Found a clip on youtube and was like:
nice, but nah..catholisism is it, this is wrong.

Five months later: totally breathtaken. Then I said: Orthodoxy is it! Yes, it is!
A have been so ever since.

So yes, do invite him/her/them to a vespers, a divine liturgy or just give them a guided tour in your parish.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 09:26:56 PM by Tommelomsky »
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Offline WPM

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2015, 10:57:53 PM »
I've contemplated going back to the priest/instructor class on Sunday morning before the liturgy.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2015, 11:02:56 PM »
I would tell him based on what precedent, except his personal interpretation of the Bible, where he gets his ideas from.
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Offline JamesR

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2015, 11:21:30 PM »
The best is to just ignore them and not bother speaking of religion at all. I've been in your boat for a long time and I've tried everything, but the truth of the matter is that nothing is going to change the mind of these Protestants. It's not worth it. Those who are truly interested will come to you.

Offline Peacemaker

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2015, 11:49:20 PM »
The best is to just ignore them and not bother speaking of religion at all. I've been in your boat for a long time and I've tried everything, but the truth of the matter is that nothing is going to change the mind of these Protestants. It's not worth it. Those who are truly interested will come to you.

Don't judge other peoples situations because you weren't successful. There are countless combinations of situations. To say it isn't worth doing..... what do you mean! How is not saving a life not worth it? Live a Christ pleasing life and people will be drawn to it. St. Seraphim of Sarov wasn't joking when he said thousands around you will be saved. You can lovely invite them. A large number of people don't go to Church because they were never invited.

Sometimes JamesR I worry about you and the well being of those around you  :-\

Offline Pravoslavac

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2015, 08:28:44 AM »
My only trouble is dealing with other Christians who don't understand Orthodoxy AT ALL. I have a friend who is now attending a non-denominational church and is telling me that Orthodoxy is just man-made religion and that God can only be found in non-denominational churches. The first thing I learned is that the we know where the Holy Spirit is but we do not know where the Holy Spirit is not. Has anyone ever seen the video I love Jesus but I hate religion? (It's on youtube in case nobody has seen it). This is exactly the type of people Im dealing with. It gets tiring hearing this over and over again. From everything that I have been learning about, nothing my friend says is even true.

 ???

Throw anathema at them and stay away from heretics. :D
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Offline LBK

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2015, 08:33:51 AM »
My only trouble is dealing with other Christians who don't understand Orthodoxy AT ALL. I have a friend who is now attending a non-denominational church and is telling me that Orthodoxy is just man-made religion and that God can only be found in non-denominational churches. The first thing I learned is that the we know where the Holy Spirit is but we do not know where the Holy Spirit is not. Has anyone ever seen the video I love Jesus but I hate religion? (It's on youtube in case nobody has seen it). This is exactly the type of people Im dealing with. It gets tiring hearing this over and over again. From everything that I have been learning about, nothing my friend says is even true.

 ???

Throw anathema at them and stay away from heretics. :D

Ai is not a bishop. Only bishops can throw anathemas.  :P
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Offline Pravoslavac

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2015, 08:40:37 AM »
My only trouble is dealing with other Christians who don't understand Orthodoxy AT ALL. I have a friend who is now attending a non-denominational church and is telling me that Orthodoxy is just man-made religion and that God can only be found in non-denominational churches. The first thing I learned is that the we know where the Holy Spirit is but we do not know where the Holy Spirit is not. Has anyone ever seen the video I love Jesus but I hate religion? (It's on youtube in case nobody has seen it). This is exactly the type of people Im dealing with. It gets tiring hearing this over and over again. From everything that I have been learning about, nothing my friend says is even true.

 ???

Throw anathema at them and stay away from heretics. :D

Ai is not a bishop. Only bishops can throw anathemas.  :P

You are wrong, i throw them all the time. ;D
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2015, 08:54:42 AM »
My only trouble is dealing with other Christians who don't understand Orthodoxy AT ALL. I have a friend who is now attending a non-denominational church and is telling me that Orthodoxy is just man-made religion and that God can only be found in non-denominational churches. The first thing I learned is that the we know where the Holy Spirit is but we do not know where the Holy Spirit is not. Has anyone ever seen the video I love Jesus but I hate religion? (It's on youtube in case nobody has seen it). This is exactly the type of people Im dealing with. It gets tiring hearing this over and over again. From everything that I have been learning about, nothing my friend says is even true.

 ???

Throw anathema at them and stay away from heretics. :D

Ai is not a bishop. Only bishops can throw anathemas.  :P

You are wrong, i throw them all the time. ;D

No, PS, those are called hissy-fits. :o
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2015, 08:58:50 AM »
Al- you seem young to me, but at my age all seem that.
Tell your friend that there are those that met Jesus and they too had issues with Him.
Then drop it.  One does not come to God via reason and argument or even explanation.
Just go about your business, no need to rub a scab, however you live your way in Orthodoxy as best you can, no talking about it (especially The Holy Spirit),
and he will see, come around and ask, then simply invite him to Vespers.
Not much more can be done.
Best of luck and prayers.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 09:00:24 AM by LenInSebastopol »
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2015, 01:05:31 PM »
You could try saying, "Oh really?" and ask them to tell you what they know about Orthodoxy and how they know it. Listen with an indulgent smile and occasionally laugh out loud.  :angel:
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Offline Arachne

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2015, 01:10:30 PM »
You could try saying, "Oh really?" and ask them to tell you what they know about Orthodoxy and how they know it. Listen with an indulgent smile and occasionally laugh out loud.  :angel:

This. Do master the indulgent smile. Nothing winds them up like such a subtle display of superiority. :angel:
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2015, 02:29:35 PM »
My only trouble is dealing with other Christians who don't understand Orthodoxy AT ALL. I have a friend who is now attending a non-denominational church and is telling me that Orthodoxy is just man-made religion and that God can only be found in non-denominational churches. The first thing I learned is that the we know where the Holy Spirit is but we do not know where the Holy Spirit is not. Has anyone ever seen the video I love Jesus but I hate religion? (It's on youtube in case nobody has seen it). This is exactly the type of people Im dealing with. It gets tiring hearing this over and over again. From everything that I have been learning about, nothing my friend says is even true.

 ???

Don't argue with him; don't bait him; don't correct him, etc.  Just let it be.  Your friend is not going to be persuaded and history since it seems that his type of Christianity is rooted in emotions and what "feels right."  Once he sees that you are not going to play his game, maybe he will stop trying to goad you.
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Offline Ai

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2015, 03:22:19 PM »
Thank you all so much for your advice! It is greatly appreciated. I spoke to the priest about it and he said it's best to continue living one's life because one knows where salvation is but we don't know where it isn't.

Lord have mercy
Lord have mercy.
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Offline underzealousconvert94

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2015, 12:53:05 AM »
If you want to maintain your friendship, you may have to "agree to disagree" and move on.  There are some people who just wont understand no matter what you say.
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2015, 04:01:58 AM »
At this point I'm comfortable enough with my sexuality...I mean Orthodoxy...that I try to correct misconceptions. If someone is insulting the Church, I get very combative, especially if someone is bad mouthing the Virgin Mary or calling us idolaters.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 04:02:12 AM by Alveus Lacuna »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2015, 05:13:52 AM »
Is ecumenism really a new invention St. Paul said if you are married to a non believer do not leave him if he wants to leave because you are orthodox let him leave for the unbeliever is sanctified by the believer
That seems to mean either non Christians who are good can be saved making an exception to john 3:16 or else non orthodox who are Christian can be saved
Are there non early church fathers who were ecumenical and not heretics if not why does the Eastern Orthodox have an ecumenical patriach

If only orthodox can be saved Christianity seems not to care about morality at all if it helps people separate

But maybe I must also repent of ecumenism and not fear separating from the world in this
« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 05:14:27 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2015, 05:28:55 AM »
Unless sanctified means believing in Christ which it probably means but my dad said otherwise once but now I made him apologise but this is only for those who were already married before one found Christ if not then both have to believe
« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 05:50:07 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mabsoota

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2015, 03:29:03 PM »
Your friend has probably been taught a lot of lies about Orthodoxy (and Catholicism at a guess). It will potentially take a long time for him to unlearn them, and he/she may not be ready to start that process yet. Pray for him/her, answer questions politely, allow him/her to disagree with you without taking offence, and show by your life what your faith means to you.

this is like what i would say, only better.
 :)

Offline SehnsuchtSojourner

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2015, 05:50:12 PM »
Pray. Share with them the experiences you've had. Avoid fruitless arguments. If your friends are just looking for a good fight, they can have one, but that doesn't lead anyone to salvation. If they misunderstand a teaching, express the Church's teaching and if they reject what you say as somehow *not* what the Church teaches, continue to share as you are able, but do not make it a point of contention (as an example, my father says that the Church effectively teaches that he, as non-Orthodox, will "miss the rapture;" I've explained why that claim is baseless for a variety of reasons, but he maintains that that's what the Church says, and I still love him in the midst of it). Share love as much as you are able. Who knows? Maybe they'll come and see sometime soon :)

Offline Gunnarr

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2015, 04:47:03 AM »
Is ecumenism really a new invention St. Paul said if you are married to a non believer do not leave him if he wants to leave because you are orthodox let him leave for the unbeliever is sanctified by the believer
That seems to mean either non Christians who are good can be saved making an exception to john 3:16 or else non orthodox who are Christian can be saved
Are there non early church fathers who were ecumenical and not heretics if not why does the Eastern Orthodox have an ecumenical patriach

If only orthodox can be saved Christianity seems not to care about morality at all if it helps people separate

But maybe I must also repent of ecumenism and not fear separating from the world in this

At the same time, the Apostle Paul also said:

"A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself."

Which fits the method of, when a heretic in the Church does not repent of their heresy and will not abandon it, you remove them entirely, unless they ever wish to repent again!
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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2015, 04:57:13 AM »
My only trouble is dealing with other Christians who don't understand Orthodoxy AT ALL. I have a friend who is now attending a non-denominational church and is telling me that Orthodoxy is just man-made religion and that God can only be found in non-denominational churches. The first thing I learned is that the we know where the Holy Spirit is but we do not know where the Holy Spirit is not. Has anyone ever seen the video I love Jesus but I hate religion? (It's on youtube in case nobody has seen it). This is exactly the type of people Im dealing with. It gets tiring hearing this over and over again. From everything that I have been learning about, nothing my friend says is even true.

 ???

Throw anathema at them and stay away from heretics. :D

Ai is not a bishop. Only bishops can throw anathemas.  :P

You are wrong, i throw them all the time. ;D

No, PS, those are called hissy-fits. :o

Ok that whole conversation was pretty funny!

Now it brings up though, could laity technically say "Anathema" to something? I would think, they would speak that they personally say "anathema" to that thing (that is, they personally will not have anything to do with it). Another example: Before the Church decided on Arius, would an average laity or even clergy have the right to speak, "I say anathema to Arius!" (I am thinking theoretically) before the council found a decision? If they are speaking in saying anathema "personally" rather than "for the Church", or is such a distiction not applicable.

Basically, would it be canon breaking if someone said , "I say anathema to Toll Houses!"?   Maybe it is simply an act of jumping the gun in speech... ok I am done posting tonight I apologize to everyone for my nonsense!

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Offline Trevorthodox

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2015, 02:34:30 PM »
Thank you for this question.  I have similar difficulties with non-denominationals.

They think their improvised informal worship represents early house churches. They think all ceremony and rituals are abolished. They think the action of God is to do something new, something different emotional every Sunday.  Many have no sense of church history and no church wisdom to draw upon.

It's little surprise then they find Orthodox Christianity difficult to conceive. 

I've gotten into arguments I regret - often because they are dismissive of my faith or ignorant. This leads to frustration and conflict.

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2015, 03:13:07 PM »
“The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.”
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Offline Peacemaker

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2015, 03:48:09 PM »
The simplest answer, pray for them.

Offline Eruvande

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2015, 04:23:01 PM »
I am slowly (too slowly!) learning that there really is a time to let it be. With my husband it's a slightly different kettle of fish as he expresses interest in what I'm learning, but I have protestant friends who really just want to have the last word in an argument, and I am becoming adept at taking a deep breath and just letting them have the last word.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2015, 09:44:52 PM »
I find it best if someone is really eager to try to talk me out of Orthodox is to just ask them a lot of questions. Mostly stuff like how do you know your doctrine is right instead of all the other denominations, how do you know what books should be in the Bible, etc. and then drill down with more questions on the answers that they give. I find that if I just keep a very innocent look on my face as I ask all those questions, eventually they will realize their answers are not satisfying me and will drop it.  Socratic questioning works wonders.  :P
« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 09:45:28 PM by TheTrisagion »
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2015, 08:31:42 AM »
I am slowly (too slowly!) learning that there really is a time to let it be. With my husband it's a slightly different kettle of fish as he expresses interest in what I'm learning, but I have protestant friends who really just want to have the last word in an argument, and I am becoming adept at taking a deep breath and just letting them have the last word.

You, dear Lady, are truly becoming Orthodox in your practices!
Deep breath is great especially while they sputter on  ;D
Your Protesting friends are simply sharing their doubts and troubles, if you listen carefully, and if you do respond (I don't recommend it, but being only human I too do so) it's best to use some of what you hear in Divine Liturgy, something you read from the bazlillions of books the Orthodox love, or the Wisdom of God (via Orthodoxy) that has been revealed to you. Have fun, pray, and you go, girl!
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Offline Eruvande

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2015, 03:23:34 PM »
I am slowly (too slowly!) learning that there really is a time to let it be. With my husband it's a slightly different kettle of fish as he expresses interest in what I'm learning, but I have protestant friends who really just want to have the last word in an argument, and I am becoming adept at taking a deep breath and just letting them have the last word.

You, dear Lady, are truly becoming Orthodox in your practices!
Deep breath is great especially while they sputter on  ;D
Your Protesting friends are simply sharing their doubts and troubles, if you listen carefully, and if you do respond (I don't recommend it, but being only human I too do so) it's best to use some of what you hear in Divine Liturgy, something you read from the bazlillions of books the Orthodox love, or the Wisdom of God (via Orthodoxy) that has been revealed to you. Have fun, pray, and you go, girl!


Goodness, thank you for the encouragement. You have no idea how much it has lifted my spirits :)
Clumsily walking a narrow path and getting most of it wrong, but I'm still walking...

Offline Trevorthodox

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2015, 11:17:01 AM »
So I'm not getting on with my non-denominational friend and we sometimes get to arguing and fall out. I went home and made a list of the main things Orthodox Christians believe in one column and what Non-denominationals believe in the next parallel column. I included such things as leadership, churchmanship, etcetera - and it became clear that Orthodoxy and non-denominationals are very far apart indeed! Many things considered important to Orthodox aren't thought important at all to non-deniminationals. This really helps me understand why he doesn't understand me at all... and why I get so frustrated with non-denominationals' 'silly ignorance!'

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #37 on: February 19, 2015, 11:31:52 AM »
You will never argue someone into Orthodoxy. I have tried that and failed many times. It is far better to live your life in a manner that people wish to know what is different about you.
God bless!

Offline Trevorthodox

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #38 on: February 19, 2015, 12:52:14 PM »
I do so hate getting into arguments but just talking about any aspect of my faith at all seems provocation enough for some protestants to start protesting and then it's difficult not to try to defend. :(

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #39 on: February 19, 2015, 12:56:56 PM »
The best thing I have personally found with someone like that is just to keep asking questions. Don't argue, just ask. Ask about the things that made you question evangelicalism yourself. Don't try to defend, just inquire.
God bless!

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2015, 01:03:41 PM »
I do so hate getting into arguments but just talking about any aspect of my faith at all seems provocation enough for some protestants to start protesting and then it's difficult not to try to defend. :(

Have you tried fasting and prayer first? Worked for me. Of course one may think one may be to weak to argue, but the prayer and resultant insight cover that well. Then your answers to your friends may edify them. Or not! ;)
Let us know.
God is The Creator of All Free Beings

Offline CharalambisMakarios

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2015, 12:08:54 PM »
"Preach the Gospel at all times. When necessary, use words."-St. Francis (I know he's not an Orthodox saint, but I think it applies to what people have been saying about witnessing with your life. Life witness is less work on you and allows you to just love your friends (difficult as it is to always live out the full manifestation of that)).

I can say that I can relate to all of this. Everything from explaining Orthodoxy to my friends, my parents, my siblings, all the way to trying to explain the doctrine of theosis to a Pentecostal pastor. The thing I've found is that it is best (if not always easy) to just answer as best you can, let them process it and continue to be in fellowship with them (assuming goodwill exists between the two of you. If not, I would still advise seeking goodwill, but that's a separate issue).

Offline pasadi97

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Re: What to do when people misunderstand Orthodoxy?
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2015, 02:57:17 PM »
My only trouble is dealing with other Christians who don't understand Orthodoxy AT ALL. I have a friend who is now attending a non-denominational church and is telling me that Orthodoxy is just man-made religion and that God can only be found in non-denominational churches. The first thing I learned is that the we know where the Holy Spirit is but we do not know where the Holy Spirit is not. Has anyone ever seen the video I love Jesus but I hate religion? (It's on youtube in case nobody has seen it). This is exactly the type of people Im dealing with. It gets tiring hearing this over and over again. From everything that I have been learning about, nothing my friend says is even true.

 ???

Well ask him where is human founder of Orthodox Church and you can show to him the unninterrupted lineage from Church in the Bible at the Acts of Apostles.
Ask him the lineage of his Church, he may find a founder there.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2015, 02:58:15 PM by pasadi97 »
God the Father is great. God the Father is good.