OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 23, 2014, 04:19:18 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: In the Name of the Trinity?  (Read 559 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Anna.T
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: One of the Orthodox Faithful - no longer a Catechumen!
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Posts: 910


Κύριε, ἐλέησον!


« on: May 04, 2014, 10:23:17 PM »

I have been wondering, why is it that we pray and baptize "in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit?"

In thinking about it, I know some churches baptize in Jesus' name, but most of them have Trinitarian baptism. Yet more churches teach prayer in Jesus' name. Clearly there have been some "changes" but they seem inconsistent.

I ask because I see in Scripture the instructions to do both in Jesus' name, but not in the Trinity. So I was wondering how it was we came to do this, when, and why?

Thanks very much.

Logged

Aγιος ὁ Θεός, Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός, Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος, ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς

Remembering our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,656


WWW
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2014, 10:48:30 PM »

I have been wondering, why is it that we pray and baptize "in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit?"

Matthew 28:19

In thinking about it, I know some churches baptize in Jesus' name, but most of them have Trinitarian baptism. Yet more churches teach prayer in Jesus' name. Clearly there have been some "changes" but they seem inconsistent.

I ask because I see in Scripture the instructions to do both in Jesus' name, but not in the Trinity. So I was wondering how it was we came to do this, when, and why?

Thanks very much.

Consider what the Protestants subtracted from the tradition - resulting in things being done only in Jesus' name.
Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 30,179


that is not the teaching of...


« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2014, 11:15:39 PM »

Both of course have Scriptural support, so I would imagine that the Trinitarian formula was eventually exclusively favored so as to combat and guard against heresies, not only what we think of as trinitarian heresy (4th century and later) but also forerunners of such heresies as seen in gnosticism and perhaps in limited ways even in some orthodox Christians, which to varying degrees distorts the idea of who Jesus and/or God is. We see the name of Jesus used in Acts, but apparently at some point early on this practice fell into disuse or was purposely abandoned. The 1st century work The Didache comes to mind in this regard, and I would imagine later writings from the 2nd century apologists (St. Justin an so forth) would also indicate this.
Logged
Anna.T
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: One of the Orthodox Faithful - no longer a Catechumen!
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Posts: 910


Κύριε, ἐλέησον!


« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2014, 11:24:41 PM »

I have been wondering, why is it that we pray and baptize "in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit?"

Matthew 28:19

In thinking about it, I know some churches baptize in Jesus' name, but most of them have Trinitarian baptism. Yet more churches teach prayer in Jesus' name. Clearly there have been some "changes" but they seem inconsistent.

I ask because I see in Scripture the instructions to do both in Jesus' name, but not in the Trinity. So I was wondering how it was we came to do this, when, and why?

Thanks very much.

Consider what the Protestants subtracted from the tradition - resulting in things being done only in Jesus' name.

Ah, that's a "duh" moment. I can't believe I forgot that Scripture. I couldn't bring it to mind for the past several days in wondering about this. Thank you. Smiley
Logged

Aγιος ὁ Θεός, Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός, Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος, ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς

Remembering our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God
Anna.T
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: One of the Orthodox Faithful - no longer a Catechumen!
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Posts: 910


Κύριε, ἐλέησον!


« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2014, 11:27:12 PM »

Both of course have Scriptural support, so I would imagine that the Trinitarian formula was eventually exclusively favored so as to combat and guard against heresies, not only what we think of as trinitarian heresy (4th century and later) but also forerunners of such heresies as seen in gnosticism and perhaps in limited ways even in some orthodox Christians, which to varying degrees distorts the idea of who Jesus and/or God is. We see the name of Jesus used in Acts, but apparently at some point early on this practice fell into disuse or was purposely abandoned. The 1st century work The Didache comes to mind in this regard, and I would imagine later writings from the 2nd century apologists (St. Justin an so forth) would also indicate this.

That makes sense, given all I've read about heresies developing right away and needing to correct them.

I do remember reading that in the Didache (regarding Baptism at least).

I suppose it's prayer that concerned me more, and I just asked about baptism at the same time since it seemed to be the same principle.

But given that if it IS the same principle, than we should have Scriptural reason as well as tradition behind the practice.

Thanks very much.
Logged

Aγιος ὁ Θεός, Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός, Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος, ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς

Remembering our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God
katherine 2001
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 889


Eastern Orthodox Church--Established in 33 A.D.


« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2014, 12:26:39 AM »

In the Great Commission at the end of Matthew's Gospel, Christ specifically instructs the apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
Logged
Cyrus
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Christian
Posts: 40


« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2014, 02:28:21 PM »

s
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 02:33:32 PM by Cyrus » Logged
Yurysprudentsiya
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA, although in my heart I will always remain a loving son of the UOC-USA
Posts: 2,213


God, the Great, the Only, Keep for Us Our Ukraine!


« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2014, 02:41:46 PM »

You got good answers here.  Jesus told us to.  And it eliminates the chance of heresy.

Most of those who use the Jesus name formula today are Oneness Pentecostals.  I think popular evangelist TD Jakes was one but he has disavowed that, I think.  They deny the Trinity and believe the heresy of Modalism.  This is why they use the Jesus name formula. 
Logged
Anna.T
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: One of the Orthodox Faithful - no longer a Catechumen!
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Posts: 910


Κύριε, ἐλέησον!


« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2014, 05:56:21 PM »

You got good answers here.  Jesus told us to.  And it eliminates the chance of heresy.

Most of those who use the Jesus name formula today are Oneness Pentecostals.  I think popular evangelist TD Jakes was one but he has disavowed that, I think.  They deny the Trinity and believe the heresy of Modalism.  This is why they use the Jesus name formula. 

Yes, some very good answers. Smiley

I shouldn't have mentioned Baptism. I'm mostly familiar with only Oneness Pentecostals baptizing in Jesus' name only as well - though I seem to remember the Baptist church where I had my daughter baptized when she was a child baptized her in Jesus' name only.

I've felt concerned about that.

I also question exactly how I was baptized. I hope Fr. M. will not mind if I want to be baptized, because I have a concern about that.

But "in Jesus' name" is widely used in prayer, among almost all the Protestant churches I have ever been in. That's the part that is a bit more of a problem to me.

Not that I have a problem not wanting to pray in the name of the Trinity, not at all, but often I finish my prayers and then "In Jesus' Name" just comes out automatically before "Amen".

Old habits, I suppose.
Logged

Aγιος ὁ Θεός, Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός, Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος, ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς

Remembering our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God
Theophilos78
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2014, 06:10:43 PM »

Yet the word used in the baptismal formula recorded by Matthew and the one recorded mostly by Luke in both the Gospel and Acts are not identical in Greek:

βαπτίζοντες αὐτοὺς εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ Πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ Υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ ῾Αγίου Πνεύματος (Matthew 28:20)

καὶ κηρυχθῆναι ἐπὶ τῷ ὀνόματι αὐτοῦ μετάνοιαν καὶ ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν (Luke 24:47)

καὶ βαπτισθήτω ἕκαστος ὑμῶν ἐπὶ τῷ ὀνόματι ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ (Acts 2:38)

one is εἰς whilst the other is ἐπὶ

Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
Yurysprudentsiya
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA, although in my heart I will always remain a loving son of the UOC-USA
Posts: 2,213


God, the Great, the Only, Keep for Us Our Ukraine!


« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2014, 06:12:55 PM »

I know that the mainline Protestants inherited their service books from the Reformation which hewed to classic Catholic practice - their formularies all require explicit Trinitarian baptism as per Christs command.  I guess evangelicals have departed from this in places although I don't know why they, of all people, would jettison an explicit scriptural command in words of red, no less.

You should talk it over with your priest.  And what he advises you should do.  There are lots of threads here about whether to receive converts by baptism from other Christian denominations.  And there is no plain answer.  The basic theology is that the non Orthodox baptism may have done something, some theologians say it did something imperfectly, others say we don't know what it did if anything.  But all agree that the Orthodox Church adds whatever is lacking to that baptism.  In Greek practice this meant receiving everyone by baptism.  In Russian practice it meant chrismating those who were baptized in other Trinitarian churches.  I think the latter is more in line with the text and meaning of the ancient canons myself, but there's a lot of disagreement on this.  To be Orthodox is to say that while I think one way is better, both are valid means of reception for converts.  And so part of becoming Orthodox is to submit to your priests guidance on how to receive these mysteries of initiation, because those instructions were probably imparted to him by his bishop, in whose name he acts, and who has responsibility for the souls of his flock before God.  

As far as prayer:  I'm sure God heard your prayers however you end them.  "God be merciful to me a sinner" is one of the most profound prayers we know.  Invocation of the Trinity is a gift given to is to know this about God and relate to Him in this way. It deepens our relationship with God and His Church.  Think of it as a treasure to have, not as a right or wrong.  And however you end the prayer, pray.  That's the most important.  
Logged
Jovan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Serbian Orthodox Diocese of Great Britain and Scandinavia
Posts: 515



« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2014, 06:21:01 PM »

What comes to my mind is that the Trinitarian formula brings a deeper sense and meaning to whatever we do. Be it in prayer, deeds, talks. Doing everything in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is inclusive of the entire gospel and all the God has revealed, which in the end include Jesus name as well.

Doing the same things through life in only Jesus name can be exclusive of what the gospel is really about. We see the revelation of the Trinity, love of God the Father. A constant work of the Holy Spirit in Jesus life.

Both "formulas" are mentioned in scripture because I think they target matters in different situations and from different perspectives. Matthew 28:19, the command has a very different vision and universality attached to a different topic, namely baptism.

While in acts 4: 12 we read concrete about salvation, and through which name that is given.

"And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

There is, as always, need for the One True Church to guide us into the balance of both formulas. Misuse of "In Jesus name" has as mentioned before, lead to heresies and people questioning his relation to the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Pray for me and forgive me, the sinner.
Logged

“Belatedly I loved thee, O Beauty so ancient and so new, belatedly I loved thee. For see, thou wast within and I was without, and I sought thee out there."
frjohnmorris
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 1,177


« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2014, 12:04:37 AM »

The rules of the Antiochian Archdiocese require that the Priest verify that the convert was Baptized "In the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." If not, the convert must be received through  Baptism. If they were Baptized in "Jesus' Name," they must be Baptized using the proper Trinitarian formula. The same is true of those "Baptized" in so called inclusive language such as "In the Name of the Creator, Redeemer and Sanctifier."
The Greek Orthodox Church in the United States receives converts Baptized with water "In the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" through Chrismation. All other canonical Orthodox jurisdictions in the US do the same except for ROCOR, which usually receives converts through Baptism. However, even ROCOR allows a Bishop to exercise economy and receive a convert by Chrismation.

Fr. John W. Morris.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2014, 12:06:36 AM by frjohnmorris » Logged
katherineofdixie
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,437



« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2014, 08:29:15 AM »


I also question exactly how I was baptized. I hope Fr. M. will not mind if I want to be baptized, because I have a concern about that.

But "in Jesus' name" is widely used in prayer, among almost all the Protestant churches I have ever been in. That's the part that is a bit more of a problem to me.

Not that I have a problem not wanting to pray in the name of the Trinity, not at all, but often I finish my prayers and then "In Jesus' Name" just comes out automatically before "Amen".

Old habits, I suppose.

When the time comes, you and your priest will discuss how you will be received into the Orthodox Church. But, forgive me, it will not be in accordance with your feelings, but the priest will do what he thinks is is appropriate, following the direction of your Bishop.

Logged

"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom
Anna.T
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: One of the Orthodox Faithful - no longer a Catechumen!
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Posts: 910


Κύριε, ἐλέησον!


« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2014, 09:48:43 AM »

Thanks everyone.

I appreciate all of the answers. And I have since reached peace and am fine with whatever Fr. M. believes is right according to his wisdom or whatever is handed down to him.

I guess it takes time to come around to the way of thinking.

I will simply tell him that I am not sure how I was baptized, but that I have been baptized, and give him the details, and let him decide.

I know a lady who was asking me about it a couple of days ago seemed to assume that I would be baptized, and we never talked about if I had been already. But then again, someone was received into the Church a few days ago, and it was by Chrismation. (And not exactly according to the form I have read - only a few on his face and also his hands.)

But whatever Fr. M. does, I am fine with it. Smiley
Logged

Aγιος ὁ Θεός, Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός, Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος, ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς

Remembering our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,925



« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2014, 10:28:09 AM »


But "in Jesus' name" is widely used in prayer, among almost all the Protestant churches I have ever been in. That's the part that is a bit more of a problem to me.

Not that I have a problem not wanting to pray in the name of the Trinity, not at all, but often I finish my prayers and then "In Jesus' Name" just comes out automatically before "Amen".

Old habits, I suppose.

When it comes to prayer, we pray to the Trinity as a whole, as well as to each Person, as in the following derived from the Trisagion Prayers (plus the Jesus Prayer): God the Father (Our Father who art in heaven...), God the Son (Jesus Christ the Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner), the Holy Spirit (O heavenly King, O Comforter, spirit of truth who art in all places and fillest all things...), and the Holy Trinity (All-holy Trinity, have mercy on us....). This small example of completeness and thoroughness is what makes us orthodox; there is no reason to think we are going to slight one of the Holy Trinity or one of the Lord's commandments--we do it all.
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Anna.T
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: One of the Orthodox Faithful - no longer a Catechumen!
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Posts: 910


Κύριε, ἐλέησον!


« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2014, 10:37:54 AM »


But "in Jesus' name" is widely used in prayer, among almost all the Protestant churches I have ever been in. That's the part that is a bit more of a problem to me.

Not that I have a problem not wanting to pray in the name of the Trinity, not at all, but often I finish my prayers and then "In Jesus' Name" just comes out automatically before "Amen".

Old habits, I suppose.

When it comes to prayer, we pray to the Trinity as a whole, as well as to each Person, as in the following derived from the Trisagion Prayers (plus the Jesus Prayer): God the Father (Our Father who art in heaven...), God the Son (Jesus Christ the Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner), the Holy Spirit (O heavenly King, O Comforter, spirit of truth who art in all places and fillest all things...), and the Holy Trinity (All-holy Trinity, have mercy on us....). This small example of completeness and thoroughness is what makes us orthodox; there is no reason to think we are going to slight one of the Holy Trinity or one of the Lord's commandments--we do it all.

Thank you. That is certainly something I noticed, and have thought about some.

It actually seems more complete to me.

I remember that I've always prayed TO the Father IN Jesus' name, I guess as I was taught. I remember that I was a little shocked one day to realize that it was probably the Holy Spirit that was all of my experience of God, since it is He that is with us and in us.

And coming to the Orthodox Church, it seemed odd to me to pray to each Person in the Trinity. But then again there are prayers (or more like odes? No, prayers?) to the Cross even, and angels, and the Theotokos, the Saints.

I believe it is the all-encompasssing nature of the love of God, and the growing sense of community-with-creation that is making these ideas easier for me. It's quite a change from where I come from.

It was a huge revelation to me that prayer is not the same thing as worship, because I did not wish to offend God.
Logged

Aγιος ὁ Θεός, Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός, Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος, ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς

Remembering our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God
recent convert
Orthodox Chrisitan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian (N.A.)
Posts: 1,922


« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2014, 10:50:41 AM »

In the book of Acts baptisms indicate that hardly anyone knew of the Holy Spirit , let alone received. For ex. in the lectionary reading for today (Friday 5/30, Acts 19:1-8), St. Paul asks the Ephesians if they had received the Holy Spirit in their baptism according to St. John the Baptist & they did not even know of the Holy Spirit. They had to be baptised in the name of Jesus to receive the Holy Spirit. Once the church commonly knew the Holy Spirit was God, I presumed it really then understood what the Lord said at the great commission & could proceed in confidence with the settled & understood name of the Trinity. Just my 2 cents.
Logged

Antiochian OC N.A.
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.079 seconds with 44 queries.