Author Topic: Girls make higher grades than boys in all school subjects, analysis finds  (Read 2297 times)

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Offline Cyrillic

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In a Sociology class I took, the instructor had the males answer questions about things about "girl culture", things that most women know, and they failed miserably.  Then, the females had to answer questions about items from "boy culture", and we didn't fare very well.  You can't just say boys/men have broader interests, you might not just be paying attention to what is really going on in the life of women.

I was talking about literature, history, philosophy, poetry, politics and the likes. Not things exclusively associated with men. Then again, it was just an observation I made. Don't have any statistics to support my claim.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 05:44:48 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline vamrat

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I distrust these studies.  There are so many forms of intelligence that may not be measured on any one test.  I don't think you can say women are smarter, or men are smarter.   The situations change, and different people will be smarter with each different life challenge.  

 Same thing with those "studies" that say one type of dog is the smartest.  Those  tests are for responding to a human, not for independent thinking, so some breeds don't shine in the test.  I can say my Great Pyrenees was the smartest dog I ever came across, it was like she was playing mental chess with me and working any situation in a very clever way to get what she wanted. But, she would never have wasted energy on things that didn't matter to her, like some canine test.

Boys are not being served well in today's education system, just as girls were not served well in decades past where they were told they were inherently not good at math or in leadership positions.  At some point we need to see that boys need a different education structure to excel, just as girls do, without being pigeonholed by these people that do the studies.

There are certainly all sorts of psychometric traits besides intelligence, but there is such a thing as general intelligence. This is not disputed in the field of psychometrics. So these studies matter. Since we are so concerned with things like disparate impact, we have to consider the possibility that some groups of people are inherently more or less capable at certain fields or professions.

In an ideal world, we wouldn't care so much, but we do.

I think an aptitude test would be a better metric.  Intelligence without the ability to apply it to tasks is typically useless.
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Offline vamrat

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From my limited but recent experience I can say that girls get higher notes because they put a lot more effort into learning the prescribed material, but boys tend to be smarter and more knowledgeable overall because they have broader interests and learn a lot of extracurricular stuff.

Obesity is higher among people with lower incomes. Blame supply and demand for the kind of food that corporations sell cheap on the market.

LOL. Not true. Often the poor areas have a lot of shops, especially Indian or Pakistani ones, which sell good and healthy food for close to nothing. Poor Indian immigrants tend to eat much healthier than their native counterparts. It's the culture of the lower classes, not the income, which causes obesity. You shouldn't fall for the "poor people are always victims of corporate conspiracies" theory that is peddled around by politicians dependent upon social programs and the lower-class vote for their jobs.

The first point is close to what Scamandrius was saying, and I think he is 100% correct.  Things that require independent initiative and risk taking seem to be favoured by men.

For your second point, US vs Europe.  For most poor people in the US, McDonalds is their ethnic food source.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline Cyrillic

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For your second point, US vs Europe.  For most poor people in the US, McDonalds is their ethnic food source.

Possibly. But it does show that poor people won't start eating healthy food all of a sudden when there's an increase of supply. Changing the lower class culture is the only solution, but it might very well be an impossible one.

*One of the reasons why the poor eat unhealthy is the lack of family cohesion. Eating meals with the family usually means that children will get healthy food, or, lacking that, regular meals. Poor people often eat irregular and solitary, usually grabbing a bar of chocolate or a bag of crisps because that's easy. As a consequence, lots of prisoners in the UK suffer from severe malnutrion when they arrive in jail. This is one of the reasons why the disintegration of the family in the middle- to upper classes is so dangerous.

Anyway, this is all pretty off topic.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 05:58:09 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline Adela

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I distrust these studies.  There are so many forms of intelligence that may not be measured on any one test.  I don't think you can say women are smarter, or men are smarter.   The situations change, and different people will be smarter with each different life challenge.  

 Same thing with those "studies" that say one type of dog is the smartest.  Those  tests are for responding to a human, not for independent thinking, so some breeds don't shine in the test.  I can say my Great Pyrenees was the smartest dog I ever came across, it was like she was playing mental chess with me and working any situation in a very clever way to get what she wanted. But, she would never have wasted energy on things that didn't matter to her, like some canine test.

Boys are not being served well in today's education system, just as girls were not served well in decades past where they were told they were inherently not good at math or in leadership positions.  At some point we need to see that boys need a different education structure to excel, just as girls do, without being pigeonholed by these people that do the studies.

There are certainly all sorts of psychometric traits besides intelligence, but there is such a thing as general intelligence. This is not disputed in the field of psychometrics. So these studies matter. Since we are so concerned with things like disparate impact, we have to consider the possibility that some groups of people are inherently more or less capable at certain fields or professions.

In an ideal world, we wouldn't care so much, but we do.

Then why are so many young women going into engineering now, and excelling? This goes against the official studies that were done as recently as the 1950's.    I have an engineering degree, and have seen this trend firsthand.     The official scientific studies used to show that there was a racial component to intelligence.  But we now know that is not the case.     Just because someone does a study, it really doesn't mean that much to me.   My whole point is there is often an agenda behind studies and research, and often current research has been turned around with later research.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Does this article also scrutinize how obesity affects intelligence?

If people are sick, then they probably cannot think straight.

I was reading an article yesterday that said about 74% of the American people (including children) are obese.
This obesity rate is surely dumbing down our future generation.

People who allow themselves to become obese are probably less intelligent on average than those who remain fit, that's probably true.


You and others most surely did say just that Maria.....unless you are just unaware that dumb and stupid are synonyms.

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Offline Jonathan Gress

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I distrust these studies.  There are so many forms of intelligence that may not be measured on any one test.  I don't think you can say women are smarter, or men are smarter.   The situations change, and different people will be smarter with each different life challenge.  

 Same thing with those "studies" that say one type of dog is the smartest.  Those  tests are for responding to a human, not for independent thinking, so some breeds don't shine in the test.  I can say my Great Pyrenees was the smartest dog I ever came across, it was like she was playing mental chess with me and working any situation in a very clever way to get what she wanted. But, she would never have wasted energy on things that didn't matter to her, like some canine test.

Boys are not being served well in today's education system, just as girls were not served well in decades past where they were told they were inherently not good at math or in leadership positions.  At some point we need to see that boys need a different education structure to excel, just as girls do, without being pigeonholed by these people that do the studies.

There are certainly all sorts of psychometric traits besides intelligence, but there is such a thing as general intelligence. This is not disputed in the field of psychometrics. So these studies matter. Since we are so concerned with things like disparate impact, we have to consider the possibility that some groups of people are inherently more or less capable at certain fields or professions.

In an ideal world, we wouldn't care so much, but we do.

Then why are so many young women going into engineering now, and excelling? This goes against the official studies that were done as recently as the 1950's.    I have an engineering degree, and have seen this trend firsthand.     The official scientific studies used to show that there was a racial component to intelligence.  But we now know that is not the case.     Just because someone does a study, it really doesn't mean that much to me.   My whole point is there is often an agenda behind studies and research, and often current research has been turned around with later research.

Women are excelling compared with men, or simply compared with their earlier performance? The latter I could easily attribute to changing social expectations, but I wouldn't extrapolate from this that all differences in performance necessarily have a social explanation.

The racial differences in intelligence are not disputed. What is not certain is whether or to what extent the causes are biological or social.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence#Genetic_arguments

If I had to predict the answer, it would be "something in between". Our minds are the products of the interaction between biology and our socio-cultural environment, and humanity varies both biologically and culturally. We have to be open to both hypotheses if we want to be scientific about it.

And yes, individual studies don't mean much by themselves. You have to look at the consensus, and the consensus is not certain about the relationship between race and intelligence. It doesn't support the certainty of the racists, but neither does it support the certainty of PC blank slaters.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 06:18:59 PM by Jonathan Gress »

Offline DeniseDenise

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LOL. Not true. Often the poor areas have a lot of shops, especially Indian or Pakistani ones, which sell good and healthy food for close to nothing. Poor Indian immigrants tend to eat much healthier than their native counterparts. It's the culture of the lower classes, not the income, which causes obesity. You shouldn't fall for the "poor people are always victims of corporate conspiracies" theory that is peddled around by politicians dependent upon social programs and the lower-class vote for their jobs.

While this may be true where you are, it is certainly not true for the millions of American kids whose meal of the day is provided by the school. Yes, I said meal.

Ghettos also often have one store, not options and certainly not ones with the best produce and products because those can't be made cheap enough to be a good investment by the store.
Many stores don't want the liability of being broken into or their employees shot, so they just close.

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Jonathan Gress

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LOL. Not true. Often the poor areas have a lot of shops, especially Indian or Pakistani ones, which sell good and healthy food for close to nothing. Poor Indian immigrants tend to eat much healthier than their native counterparts. It's the culture of the lower classes, not the income, which causes obesity. You shouldn't fall for the "poor people are always victims of corporate conspiracies" theory that is peddled around by politicians dependent upon social programs and the lower-class vote for their jobs.

While this may be true where you are, it is certainly not true for the millions of American kids whose meal of the day is provided by the school. Yes, I said meal.

Ghettos also often have one store, not options and certainly not ones with the best produce and products because those can't be made cheap enough to be a good investment by the store.
Many stores don't want the liability of being broken into or their employees shot, so they just close.



I think you inadvertently supported Cyrillic's argument that the bad diet of the poor is due to their overall dysfunctional culture. He used the example of Indian/Pakistani communities to argue that poverty alone is not a sufficient explanation.

Offline DeniseDenise

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And that's fine. I was only refuting his use of 'not true. Often the poor live...'

Since that is not the case in america
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Offline Jetavan

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The racial differences in intelligence are not disputed. What is not certain is whether or to what extent the causes are biological or social.
....
And even if they are "biological" doesn't mean that they are "immutable".
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 06:34:09 PM by Jetavan »
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LOL. Not true. Often the poor areas have a lot of shops, especially Indian or Pakistani ones, which sell good and healthy food for close to nothing. Poor Indian immigrants tend to eat much healthier than their native counterparts. It's the culture of the lower classes, not the income, which causes obesity. You shouldn't fall for the "poor people are always victims of corporate conspiracies" theory that is peddled around by politicians dependent upon social programs and the lower-class vote for their jobs.

There isn't an Indian or Pakistani (or Chinese, or...) store within 50 miles of here. Of course if there were I still wouldn't have a car to get to it. And I don't fall for the poor people theories, I am the poor person living the reality.

Offline Jetavan

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LOL. Not true. Often the poor areas have a lot of shops, especially Indian or Pakistani ones, which sell good and healthy food for close to nothing. Poor Indian immigrants tend to eat much healthier than their native counterparts. It's the culture of the lower classes, not the income, which causes obesity. You shouldn't fall for the "poor people are always victims of corporate conspiracies" theory that is peddled around by politicians dependent upon social programs and the lower-class vote for their jobs.

There isn't an Indian or Pakistani (or Chinese, or...) store within 50 miles of here. Of course if there were I still wouldn't have a car to get to it. And I don't fall for the poor people theories, I am the poor person living the reality.
Isn't Cyrillic in the Netherlands?
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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I've heard studies that also seem to indicate literacy plays a major role in future academic success. Also, that lower income families have less access to books, so as a result they don't achieve highly academically.

These studies were done by Dr. Stephen Krashen, Professor Emeritus out of the University of Southern California.

Perhaps, girls reading more also contributes something to their academic success, since men don't like to read.

I remember hearing boys complain about how they 'hated' reading, which shocked me to my core.
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Offline Adela

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I distrust these studies.  There are so many forms of intelligence that may not be measured on any one test.  I don't think you can say women are smarter, or men are smarter.   The situations change, and different people will be smarter with each different life challenge.  

 Same thing with those "studies" that say one type of dog is the smartest.  Those  tests are for responding to a human, not for independent thinking, so some breeds don't shine in the test.  I can say my Great Pyrenees was the smartest dog I ever came across, it was like she was playing mental chess with me and working any situation in a very clever way to get what she wanted. But, she would never have wasted energy on things that didn't matter to her, like some canine test.

Boys are not being served well in today's education system, just as girls were not served well in decades past where they were told they were inherently not good at math or in leadership positions.  At some point we need to see that boys need a different education structure to excel, just as girls do, without being pigeonholed by these people that do the studies.

There are certainly all sorts of psychometric traits besides intelligence, but there is such a thing as general intelligence. This is not disputed in the field of psychometrics. So these studies matter. Since we are so concerned with things like disparate impact, we have to consider the possibility that some groups of people are inherently more or less capable at certain fields or professions.

In an ideal world, we wouldn't care so much, but we do.

Then why are so many young women going into engineering now, and excelling? This goes against the official studies that were done as recently as the 1950's.    I have an engineering degree, and have seen this trend firsthand.     The official scientific studies used to show that there was a racial component to intelligence.  But we now know that is not the case.     Just because someone does a study, it really doesn't mean that much to me.   My whole point is there is often an agenda behind studies and research, and often current research has been turned around with later research.

Women are excelling compared with men, or simply compared with their earlier performance? The latter I could easily attribute to changing social expectations, but I wouldn't extrapolate from this that all differences in performance necessarily have a social explanation.

The racial differences in intelligence are not disputed. What is not certain is whether or to what extent the causes are biological or social.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence#Genetic_arguments

If I had to predict the answer, it would be "something in between". Our minds are the products of the interaction between biology and our socio-cultural environment, and humanity varies both biologically and culturally. We have to be open to both hypotheses if we want to be scientific about it.

And yes, individual studies don't mean much by themselves. You have to look at the consensus, and the consensus is not certain about the relationship between race and intelligence. It doesn't support the certainty of the racists, but neither does it support the certainty of PC blank slaters.

If you say the racial element of intelligence is true and not disputable, but you don't know why, then what is the point of this "knowledge"?  You can hurt individuals by misapplying this "knowledge".

From my experience, I see quite a few women and African Americans in engineering, medicine, pharmacy, veterinary medicine, etc, to say that these studies are useless.  

Offline Maria

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I've heard studies that also seem to indicate literacy plays a major role in future academic success. Also, that lower income families have less access to books, so as a result they don't achieve highly academically.

These studies were done by Dr. Stephen Krashen, Professor Emeritus out of the University of Southern California.

Perhaps, girls reading more also contributes something to their academic success, since men don't like to read.

I remember hearing boys complain about how they 'hated' reading, which shocked me to my core.

Yes, Dr. Krashen is well known for his advocacy of reading programs and work with the ESL population.

Reading requires that boys sit still. If given a choice, they might prefer to watch a three hour movie rather than read a book that may take them 12 hours or more. They would prefer to use their time to better advantage: working in the machine shop, whittling wood, building a model airplane, etc. Hey, do boys even do these activities today?

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Offline Adela

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In a Sociology class I took, the instructor had the males answer questions about things about "girl culture", things that most women know, and they failed miserably.  Then, the females had to answer questions about items from "boy culture", and we didn't fare very well.  You can't just say boys/men have broader interests, you might not just be paying attention to what is really going on in the life of women.

I was talking about literature, history, philosophy, poetry, politics and the likes. Not things exclusively associated with men. Then again, it was just an observation I made. Don't have any statistics to support my claim.

What kind of women are you hanging out with?  ;)

Offline Mor Ephrem

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In a Sociology class I took, the instructor had the males answer questions about things about "girl culture", things that most women know, and they failed miserably.  Then, the females had to answer questions about items from "boy culture", and we didn't fare very well.  You can't just say boys/men have broader interests, you might not just be paying attention to what is really going on in the life of women.

I was talking about literature, history, philosophy, poetry, politics and the likes. Not things exclusively associated with men. Then again, it was just an observation I made. Don't have any statistics to support my claim.

What kind of women are you hanging out with?  ;)

Not the pie-baking kind.  :'(
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In a Sociology class I took, the instructor had the males answer questions about things about "girl culture", things that most women know, and they failed miserably.  Then, the females had to answer questions about items from "boy culture", and we didn't fare very well.  You can't just say boys/men have broader interests, you might not just be paying attention to what is really going on in the life of women.

I was talking about literature, history, philosophy, poetry, politics and the likes. Not things exclusively associated with men. Then again, it was just an observation I made. Don't have any statistics to support my claim.

What kind of women are you hanging out with?  ;)

Not the pie-baking kind.  :'(

Hey, men bake better pies and make better tailored garments than women.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Arachne

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For your second point, US vs Europe.  For most poor people in the US, McDonalds is their ethnic food source.

We certainly have no concept of food deserts over here, not even in sprawling metropolitan areas.
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Offline Cyrillic

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Not the pie-baking kind.  :'(

Oh well, no need to worry. There are still some 3 billion women left on the earth and I suppose that at least some of them are able to bake pies.

Edit: 8000th post. Booyaah!
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 10:04:32 AM by Cyrillic »