OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 20, 2014, 04:04:26 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Is the catholic holy water "holy"?  (Read 7326 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
parmenas
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 3


« on: April 08, 2005, 01:45:06 PM »

Hello,

For the average Christian from both sides (Catholic or Orthodox) matters of faith such as papal infilibility, Filioque e.t.c are always concepts that cannot be easily grapsed.

Therefore, a simple faithful would search for signs to make sure that he is in the true Church.

After the schism of 1054 there are several instnaces where, according to orthodox sources, God manifested through various sighns that Orthodoxy is the right faith and Church.

I think that in the Pedalion St Nikidemos mentions a miracle in Ukrain which pointed out that the catholic holy water was not efficacious.

As you know the Orthodox water is incorupt. 

Does anybody of you know whether incorupt "holy" water can be found among the Latins?
There is also the issue whether Latin priests add things to preseve it incorrupt, too.

I think that a comparison of holy waters from both sides might prove whether latins priests bear priesthood.

I would like your input.
Logged

NULL
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,411



« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2005, 02:17:12 PM »

How can water become "corrupt"?
Logged
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,420


« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2005, 02:31:08 PM »

parmenas,
It seemed to me that you are taking too much of a logical/scientific/rationalistic approach.  Church grace-filled items (e.g. holy water, relics, etc.) can't really be empirically or scientifically tested.  Just don't try.  It's a mystery.
Logged
shanmo9
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 63


OC.net


« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2005, 07:11:15 PM »

Does this mean that the Holy Water I have in my home be safe to use after a year? Forgive my ignorance.

John
Logged

Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me a sinner!
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2005, 09:03:18 PM »

How can water become "corrupt"?
It becomes stagnant, fetid and green with algae. There are some who say that this is why the Roman Catholics must add salt to their holy water to prevent this algal growth, whereas Orthodox Christian holy water remains incorrupt without salt, and they take this as "proof" of the validity of the Orthodox priesthood. I would say that if our faith depends on such a miracle, we are in a sorry state indeed, and worse, if we try to make our holy water an occassion for offending others. Physical corruption cannot be taken as "proof" that something is not holy- many ancient Orthodox Icons have cracked, lost their pigment or darkened over time to the point where their dypictions cannot be seen (such as the Wonder-working Icon of the Theotokos 'Mytyrdiotissa" ("Of The Myrtles") etc...should we take this as "proof" that they are not holy?

George (Australia)
« Last Edit: April 08, 2005, 09:12:57 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
cizinec
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 941


There ain't no way but the hard way.


« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2005, 10:57:08 PM »

Is non-alcoholic beer "beer"?  Well, it's my understanding that a particular yeast is used to make non-alcoholic beer and that the alcohol is removed using a centrifuge. 

So is it beer or isn't it?  I don't know, but I'm not drinking it, so why ask the question.
Logged

"Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery."
Friarmoo32
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 51


Christe Eleison!


« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2005, 02:10:55 PM »

Ok first of all, Catholics do not put salt in there water to prevent corruption.  Secondly, the Orthodox Church even says that the Roman Catholic Mass is valid and that the Body and Blood of Christ is on their altars (Apostolic Succession gives them this grace) so I cant see why water blest by a priest of the Roman Rite wouldnt be valid.  Just thought i'd add my two cents.
Logged
Ntinos
Σαλός
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 355


« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2005, 02:47:35 PM »

I have heard they use salt to maintain it. Might be wrong though.
Logged

lpap
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 228

I stopped participating in this forum.


WWW
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2005, 02:49:01 PM »

Secondly, the Orthodox Church even says that the Roman Catholic Mass is valid and that the Body and Blood of Christ is on their altars (Apostolic Succession gives them this grace)

Brother Friarmoo32,

I believe you are wrong on this. Who have told you this? No Orthodox is accepted the Holiness of Roman Catholic Mass and this is precisely the reason for us not to be in the same Church together during Mass.

Whether this is your opinion, I have to say that I respect It.

The original question, on the other hand, is a tricky one because by saying that "God manifested through various signs that Orthodoxy is the right faith and Church" it automatically rejects Roman Catholic Church. I think that's an insufficient pointless method to approach "the Truth".
Logged

Life is to live the life of others.
Friarmoo32
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 51


Christe Eleison!


« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2005, 02:54:21 PM »

I did mean say the Catholic Church in whole, I am sorry if I implied that.  I meant that the Orthodox Church views the Catholic Mass as valid (if celebrated correctly) because of Apostolic Succession.  My point was, if the Orthodox Church sees the Mass as valid, how could water blest by the same priest not be considered valid?  This is how every Orthodox priest has explained it to me on the Validity of the Mass.  What I'm saying is, the Mass (Divine Liturgy) is the body and blood of Christ, so if that's valid, simple water would be assumed as well wouldnt it?
Logged
lpap
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 228

I stopped participating in this forum.


WWW
« Reply #10 on: April 17, 2005, 03:07:51 PM »

I did mean say the Catholic Church in whole, I am sorry if I implied that. I meant that the Orthodox Church views the Catholic Mass as valid (if celebrated correctly) because of Apostolic Succession. My point was, if the Orthodox Church sees the Mass as valid, how could water blest by the same priest not be considered valid? This is how every Orthodox priest has explained it to me on the Validity of the Mass. What I'm saying is, the Mass (Divine Liturgy) is the body and blood of Christ, so if that's valid, simple water would be assumed as well wouldnt it?

The validity of Mass is regarded as such with regards to the faith of the clergy and the faithful that participate in it. Not by the Apostolic Succession. A priest and his congregation may have false faith and at the same time they may as well have true "Apostolic Succession".

So for Orthodox Church the "Apostolic Succession" is regarded in relation to true apostolic succession in faith and practice, not in just succession in place of someone else's position/office.

In this context I am afraid Orthodox Church has the position that Catholic Church has lost the "Apostolic Succession" by adding human conceptions to the Original Faith.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2005, 03:09:39 PM by lpap » Logged

Life is to live the life of others.
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2005, 04:40:37 PM »

Perhaps we should be considering the question, what makes 'Holy Water' holy?

Water is created by God, and hence is inherently good. Surely we are not saying it has a soul, and then taking even another step in saying that this soul can be that can be either righteouss or corrupt?...I believe the fifth Oecumenical council has a few anathemas addressing this issue.

Is it holy because algae does not grow in it? If that is all there is to it, what substance could compare with the holiness of Chlorine, sanctifying all it touches?

Does it become holy when the priest casts some magic spell on it? I fear our sacramental theology doesn't quite work that way.

Or perhaps it is holy because of the faith and disposistion of the one who is using it?...regardless of who utters the magic words and preforms the mysterious rites.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Friarmoo32
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 51


Christe Eleison!


« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2005, 01:23:24 AM »

greekischristian, that is an excellent point!  We must remember one thing, that God is all merciful, and that we can't really be like the West (well I guess that would include me huh?) and try to explain everything.  God didnt intend for everything to be explained, and this could be one of those things no? 
Logged
Michael
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 225


« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2005, 01:40:31 PM »

It is not only Roman Catholics who practise the addition of salt.  This is just a difference between eastern and western rites.  In the west, we add salt, in the east, they do not.  It has nothing to do with whether or not one is Roman Catholic.  Western rite Orthodox will also add salt, whereas, presumably, Eastern rite Catholics will not.  It is simply a difference of rite, and there is no need to seek for deeper meaning in these things.

As for the reason, the addition of salt is part of the rite of the blessing of Holy Water, and not a means of preventing it from "going off".  Incidentally, in the Roman Catholic Church, the addition of salt has been made optional since the 1960s/1970s (I forget which).

Traditionally, in the western rite, the blessing of holy water is in four sections.  First, an exorcism is pronounced over the salt.  Second, the salt is blessed.  Third, the water is blessed - near the end of the prayer of blessing over the water, the blessed salt is added.  Finally, the mixture of salt and water is blessed, and voila!   Holy Water. Smiley
Logged
lpap
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 228

I stopped participating in this forum.


WWW
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2005, 04:53:17 PM »

It is not only Roman Catholics who practise the addition of salt. This is just a difference between eastern and western rites. In the west, we add salt, in the east, they do not. It has nothing to do with whether or not one is Roman Catholic. Western rite Orthodox will also add salt, whereas, presumably, Eastern rite Catholics will not. It is simply a difference of rite, and there is no need to seek for deeper meaning in these things.

As for the reason, the addition of salt is part of the rite of the blessing of Holy Water, and not a means of preventing it from "going off". Incidentally, in the Roman Catholic Church, the addition of salt has been made optional since the 1960s/1970s (I forget which).

Traditionally, in the western rite, the blessing of holy water is in four sections. First, an exorcism is pronounced over the salt. Second, the salt is blessed. Third, the water is blessed - near the end of the prayer of blessing over the water, the blessed salt is added. Finally, the mixture of salt and water is blessed, and voila! Holy Water. Smiley

Quite a recipe you got there, my friend.
Logged

Life is to live the life of others.
Pravoslavbob
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,183


St. Sisoes the Great


« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2005, 04:58:29 PM »

I did mean say the Catholic Church in whole, I am sorry if I implied that. I meant that the Orthodox Church views the Catholic Mass as valid (if celebrated correctly) because of Apostolic Succession. My point was, if the Orthodox Church sees the Mass as valid, how could water blest by the same priest not be considered valid? This is how every Orthodox priest has explained it to me on the Validity of the Mass. What I'm saying is, the Mass (Divine Liturgy) is the body and blood of Christ, so if that's valid, simple water would be assumed as well wouldnt it?

"Validity" is a concept which is basically foreign to Orthodox ecclesiology.
Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
Michael
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 225


« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2005, 05:38:38 PM »



Quite a recipe you got there, my friend.

 Smiley

It's rather delightful actually, and it turns out that I omitted the exorcism of the water. The entire rite follows:

On all Sundays throughout the year, after prime and the chapter, the blessing of salt and water shall take place, at the step of the quire, by a priest, in the following manner.

I exorcise thee, O creature of salt, by the living + God, by the true + God, by the holy + God, by the God who commanded thee to be cast into the water by Elisha the prophet that the barrenness of the water might be healed, that thou mayest become exorcized for the salvation of them that believe, and that thou mayest be salvation of soul and body to all that take thee; and from that place where thou shalt have been sprinkled, let every delusion and wickedness, or craft of devilish cunning, when adjured, flee and depart. Through him who shall come to judge the quick and the dead and the world by fire. Amen.

Let us pray.

Almighty everlasting God, we humbly implore thy boundless loving-kindness that, of thy goodness, though wouldest deign to bl+ess and sanc+tify this creature of salt, which thou hast gien for the use of mankind; that it may be unto all who partake of it health of mind and body; that whatsoever shall have been touched or sprinkled with it may be freed from wickedness. Through our Lord Jesus Christ, thy Son, who liveth and reigneth with thee in the unity of the Holy Ghost, world without end. Amen.

Here follws the exorcism of the water.

I exorcize thee, O creature of water, in the name of God + the Father almighty, and in the name of Jesus + Christ his Son our Lord, and in the power of the Holy + Ghost; that thou mayest become water exorcized for putting to flight all power of the enemy; that thou mayest have power to root out and transplant the enemy himself with his apostate angels, by the power of the same Jesus Christ our Lord; who shall come to judge the quick and the dead and the world by fire. Amen.

Let us pray.

O God, who, for the salvation of mankind, has hidden one of they greatest Sacraments in the element of water, graciously hearken unto our invocations, and pour upon this element prepared for divers purifications the power of thy bles+sing, that this thy creature, serving in thy mysteries, may acquire the effectual power of divine grace for casting out devils, and for driving away diseases; and that on whatsoever in the houses or dwelling-places of the faithful this water shall have been sprinkled, it may be freed from all uncleanness, and may be delivered from hurt. Let no pestilential spirit, no corrupt air, linger there. Let all the insidious attacks of the lurking enemy be dissipated; and if there be aught which threatens the safety or the peace of the inhabitants, let it be driven away by the sprinkling of this water, so that, saved by the invocation of thy holy Name, they may be defended from all assaults. Through our Lord Jesus Christ thy Son, who liveth and reigneth with thee in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God, world without end. Amen.

Here shall the priest cast salt into the water in the form of a Cross, saying thus, without inflection:

Let this mixture of salt and water alike be made in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.

The Lord be with you
and with thy spirit.

Let us pray.

O God, the author of unconquered might and the king of unconquerable empire, who ever triumphest magnificently, who repressest the strength of adverse power, and overcomest the rage of the roaring adversary, and by the might subduest the onslaughts of iniquity; with fear and humility we entreat and beseech thee, O Lord, that thou wouldest deign to acept this creature of salt and water; graciously illumine it, and by thy love and by thy pity sanc+tify it; that whenever it shall have been sprinkled, unclean spirit may be parried, and dread of the venomous serpent may be driven far away; and may the presence of the Holy Ghost be vouchsafed to be with us, as we ask thy mercy in every place, through our Lord Jesus Christ thy Son. Amen.

And that's it. The asperges me, domine follows at this point, but what you have above is the blesing of water in the Sarum use, which is the rite adoopted by the western rite of ROCOR. I cannot see how there can be any doubt as to the efficacy of this rite. The intention is clear, and it suffers no diminution because of the absence of dipping a cross in the water.

Somebody commented earlier that, in the western rite, the priest says the words of blessing in the first person, as though he himself is performing the blessing, rather than God. This is clearly not true. He says the exorcism in the first person, but makes it clear that he only does so in the name of God and the power of the Spirit. As for the blessing itself, this is in the form of a prayer addressed to God, asking him to send his blessing on the salt, and then the water, and then the mixture.

These texts are readily available online and people would do well to look them up before making assumptions and accusations. Just a few thoughts.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2005, 04:50:25 AM by Michael » Logged
Friarmoo32
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 51


Christe Eleison!


« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2005, 09:53:34 PM »

That explains much of why I was surprised to hear someone say we add salt to water, because it doenst have to be done anymore since the 60's (probably after Vatican II).  And the prayers listed above, definetly seem like something you would find in the Old Roman Missals not something now adays, since we Romans have watered everything down. 
Logged
XeniainAmerica
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4


« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2005, 08:23:50 AM »


It becomes stagnant, fetid and green with algae. There are some who say that this is why the Roman Catholics must add salt to their holy water to prevent this algal growth, whereas Orthodox Christian holy water remains incorrupt without salt, and they take this as "proof" of the validity of the Orthodox priesthood. I would say that if our faith depends on such a miracle, we are in a sorry state indeed,

LOL... yeah those folks are right. Sea.. ahem.. salt water never turns green and has algae in it.. nope.. never. (sarcasm off)  Wink  Tongue

I agree with your accessment.  Grin
Logged
Augustine
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 565

pray for me, please


WWW
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2005, 07:27:47 PM »

Friarmoo32,

Many Roman Catholics assume that because of how their own church views Orthodox Sacraments (as being "valid"), that the Orthodox view is reciprocal.  This in large part has to do with assumptions that Orthodox Christianity is essentially "Popeless Catholicism".  This is not the case.

There are some "ecumenist" Orthodox who will say or imply things like this (that Roman Catholic sacraments are "valid"), but this is inaccurate.  Beside utilizing categories not proper to Orthodoxy, the basic idea involved is incorrect.

The simple answer is that the Orthodox Church doesn't normally recognize the baptisms of other denominations.  If the Orthodox Church does recognize them though (such as in the case of converts from Roman Catholicism entering the Orthodox Church), it is by economy - this means "leniency", or the "bending of the rules" to put it in layman's terms.  The understanding is, when this happens, that by anointing such a convert with the Holy Chrism and their repudiating their past errors and professing the Orthodox faith, the grace of baptism is being given to such a person; or put more diplomatically, "whatever was lacking" in their previous baptism is being supplied.

However, there are many places in the Orthodox world (even here in North America), where converts from Roman Catholic or confessional Protestant backgrounds (like Lutherans, Anglicans, etc.) are given full, canonical Baptism by immersion.

As should be apparent by now, Roman Catholic and Orthodox Christian concepts of "validity" are much different.

Logged
Victor
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 59


« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2005, 02:27:06 AM »

Augustine, what is the official Orthodox position on this? Because it seems that the many of the Orthodox I have spoke to (as you noted) seem to think they are valid. Some even went to the extent of calling those who say they are not valid as anti-Catholic. You got some official document I can read?

Would appreciate it.

~Victor
Logged
JoeS
(aka StMarkEofE)
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,122


Global Warming Enthusiast.


« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2005, 09:54:28 PM »

Does this mean that the Holy Water I have in my home be safe to use after a year? Forgive my ignorance.

John

I have mine since the beginning of the year and guesss what It is good to drink.  I have howerver kept it in the frig for that time.   I also have a container that has set at room temp for the last 6 months and has yet to faul in its content.

JoeS

Logged
Simayan
Site Supporter
High Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate - GOA
Posts: 816



« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2005, 03:58:08 PM »

Is it really necessary to deny the holiness of the Roman Catholics?

When I decided I wished to convert, I did it because I dont believe the Pope is any better than the other Patriarchs. However, in my eyes, he is still a Patriarch, an equal to all the others. Miracles occur all the time for Catholics, as well as for Orthodox.

Do you explain the tears of statues of Mary and various exorsisms as unholy? H\What about the crumbling of the 20 foot tall Virgin Mary at the Boston church the second its final mass came to an end?

I dont need the proof that no mold in a glass of Holy Water means its holy. If it is blessed by a priest, then it is Holy.

I pray this is just an internet Orthodoxy thing, becasue Im not going to sit around in a church where Catholic-bashing and pomp and circumstance is more important than God himself.
Logged

"He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death, nor mourning nor crying nor suffering, for the old order of things has passed away."
Armando
Dead among the living
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 187

I gave up dreaming a long time ago...


« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2005, 06:01:06 PM »

I have EO holy water in my room and it corrupted. It doesn't mean it's not HOLY...
Logged

Ten years have passed, the girl I loved
is now a woman, but I am still a child...
-Sad-ending fairytale, Miltos Paschalidis
Michael
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 225


« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2005, 12:12:06 PM »

Precisely, Armando.  There seems to be an unhealthy attitude to what it is to be "holy", which is leading some of the faithful into a superstitious approach to the Faith.  I am glad that you ahve avoided this.
Logged
bergschlawiner
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 235

Sarisan


« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2005, 07:48:16 AM »

Slightly off topic but related:  have heard several times that the water of the River Jordan is considered "holy" because of the Baptism of our Lord in it and probably other historical reasons?  Have also heard that spring water from natural sources at holy sites is also revered as "holy" water?  Since "holy water" is not a sacrament isn't there some '"validity" to any believer blessing water like a family blessing or a parent blessing a child or for that matter a pious farmer in the Old Country blessing his animals on certain days?
Logged
Silouan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 818

Bogurodzica dziewica zbaw nas


« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2005, 08:24:41 AM »

Sure holy water is a sacrament in the loose sense of the word, as the Orthodox Church never officialy settled on seven sacraments (and I would definetly argrue there are more than seven).  But there is distinction (at least in Greek practice) between Holy Water and miraculous water (for lack of a better term in English, as these are two seperate  terms in Greek).  Water blessed by a priest is holy water, while water from the well of St. Athanasios on the Holy Mountain (for one example) is miraculous water that hasn't been blessed by a priest but is still renowned for its miraculous origen or/and wonderworking properties. 
Logged
dantxny
OC.net Mineshaft gap
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Russian
Posts: 769



« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2005, 03:24:03 PM »

Just off topic real fast, which other mysteries would you define as being sacraments besides the normal seven.  I have long heard this touted, but no one has ever given me some examples.  Thanks
« Last Edit: August 21, 2005, 03:24:26 PM by dantxny » Logged

"If you give the average Frenchman a choice between a reforming president who would plug the country's huge deficit and a good cheese, he would probably opt for the cheese." - Stephen Clarke
I think the French may be on to something here.
Silouan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 818

Bogurodzica dziewica zbaw nas


« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2005, 04:22:08 PM »

Agiasmos (holy water), monastic tonsure, tonsure to the minor orders, etc.

The things isn't really to creat a list and say this is and that isn't, more simply to be open to reception of grace in all of the Church's differnt ways. 
Logged
dantxny
OC.net Mineshaft gap
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Russian
Posts: 769



« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2005, 05:47:06 PM »

Okay, I understand.  Thank you.
Logged

"If you give the average Frenchman a choice between a reforming president who would plug the country's huge deficit and a good cheese, he would probably opt for the cheese." - Stephen Clarke
I think the French may be on to something here.
Seraphim98
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 562



« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2012, 01:01:16 AM »

For what it is worth I've several containers of Orthodox Holy Water, some several years old. To my knowledge it's all still good. Perhaps I need to use it more frequently, or else stop getting so much at one time.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 01:02:02 AM by Seraphim98 » Logged
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,021



WWW
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2012, 01:05:57 AM »


If you've got too much, just water your plants with it.  That way you'll make room for this year's water.

I know folks who drink of it every morning.

I usually reserve it for an "as needed" basis.  If someone is really sick, etc.

I also give my godkids a drink of holy water as they leave for their first day of school.  My mother always did that for us, so, I have continued it with my godchildren.

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,408


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2012, 11:42:24 AM »

Prior to Theophany, we always watered the house plants with any water from the prior year. We used it as Liza describes as well!
Logged
moronikos
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: ...and they were first called Christians in Antioch
Posts: 150


I'm trying to think, but nothing happens!


WWW
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2012, 12:10:55 PM »

I just realized I have some Byzantine Catholic--"u-word"--holy water that has been in my office filing cabinet for over 10 years.  It still looks alright, but I probably wouldn't want to drink it.
Logged
HandmaidenofGod
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (Ecumenical Patriarch)
Posts: 3,397


O Holy St. Demetrius pray to God for us!


« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2012, 12:17:55 PM »

I just realized I have some Byzantine Catholic--"u-word"--holy water that has been in my office filing cabinet for over 10 years.  It still looks alright, but I probably wouldn't want to drink it.

Why can't you just leave it at "Byzantine Catholic" or "Eastern Rite Catholic"? Why do you even have to *hint* at the "u-word" when you know it's offensive?
Logged

"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,970


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2012, 05:13:31 PM »

I've never understood why it offensive. I had a Ukrainian Byzantine Catholic advisor who had no qualms about using the word to  describe herself.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
Andrew21091
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 1,269



« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2012, 12:27:07 AM »

In this context I am afraid Orthodox Church has the position that Catholic Church has lost the "Apostolic Succession" by adding human conceptions to the Original Faith.

That isn't the official teaching of the Orthodox Church. Orthodox hierarchs accept that the Roman Catholic Church has apostolic succession and have valid sacraments.

"13...On each side it is recognized that what Christ has entrusted to his Church - profession of apostolic faith, participation in the same sacraments, above all the one priesthood celebrating the one sacrifice of Christ, the apostolic succession of bishops - cannot be considered the exclusive property of one of our Churches.

14. It is in this perspective that the Catholic Churches and the Orthodox Churches recognize each other as Sister Churches, responsible together for maintaining the Church of God in fidelity to the divine purpose, most especially in what concerns unity."

This is from the Balamand declaration which representatives the majority of the Orthodox Churches. You may believe that the Catholic Church has lost its Apostolic Succession, but it isn't what our bishops believe.
Logged
Ionnis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 1,071



« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2012, 12:34:29 AM »

^ Doesn't mean anything.  Bishops and priests betray the faith all the time, the Balamand Agreement being but one example. 
Logged

"If you cannot find Christ in the beggar at the church door, you will not find Him in the chalice.”  -The Divine John Chrysostom

“Till we can become divine, we must be content to be human, lest in our hurry for change we sink to something lower.” -Anthony Trollope
William
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Posts: 4,315


« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2012, 01:17:47 AM »

In this context I am afraid Orthodox Church has the position that Catholic Church has lost the "Apostolic Succession" by adding human conceptions to the Original Faith.

That isn't the official teaching of the Orthodox Church. Orthodox hierarchs accept that the Roman Catholic Church has apostolic succession and have valid sacraments.

"13...On each side it is recognized that what Christ has entrusted to his Church - profession of apostolic faith, participation in the same sacraments, above all the one priesthood celebrating the one sacrifice of Christ, the apostolic succession of bishops - cannot be considered the exclusive property of one of our Churches.

14. It is in this perspective that the Catholic Churches and the Orthodox Churches recognize each other as Sister Churches, responsible together for maintaining the Church of God in fidelity to the divine purpose, most especially in what concerns unity."

This is from the Balamand declaration which representatives the majority of the Orthodox Churches. You may believe that the Catholic Church has lost its Apostolic Succession, but it isn't what our bishops believe.

Reminds me of Arminium.

Anyway, is it fine for me to keep a jar of the Holy Water in the fridge, or should it be kept in an icon corner?
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2012, 01:39:41 AM »

Anyway, is it fine for me to keep a jar of the Holy Water in the fridge, or should it be kept in an icon corner?

I keep mine in my icon corner.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2012, 01:51:30 AM »

In this context I am afraid Orthodox Church has the position that Catholic Church has lost the "Apostolic Succession" by adding human conceptions to the Original Faith.

That isn't the official teaching of the Orthodox Church. Orthodox hierarchs accept that the Roman Catholic Church has apostolic succession and have valid sacraments.

"13...On each side it is recognized that what Christ has entrusted to his Church - profession of apostolic faith, participation in the same sacraments, above all the one priesthood celebrating the one sacrifice of Christ, the apostolic succession of bishops - cannot be considered the exclusive property of one of our Churches.

14. It is in this perspective that the Catholic Churches and the Orthodox Churches recognize each other as Sister Churches, responsible together for maintaining the Church of God in fidelity to the divine purpose, most especially in what concerns unity."

This is from the Balamand declaration which representatives the majority of the Orthodox Churches. You may believe that the Catholic Church has lost its Apostolic Succession, but it isn't what our bishops believe.

I think that the Orthodox Churches did NOT ratify the Balamand Agreement. 

The sole Russian representative at Balamand was Father Nestor (Zhilyaev.)  The signature of one monk can no more bind the Russian Synod to such an Agreement than your own priest's signature can bind your Church to any Agreement with the Vatican.

PS:  Just a small reminder that it was a minority of Orthodox Churches at Balamand.  8 if I remember correctly.  Most of the Orthodox Churches were simply not there.
Logged
username!
Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,064



« Reply #41 on: January 14, 2012, 01:55:48 AM »

Isn't all water that is potable holy?  It is a treasured resource that many people in the world have extremely limited access to and even at that water that doesn't make them sick or die.  All water really should be treated as holy as we can not live without it.
Logged

Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #42 on: January 14, 2012, 03:21:37 AM »

"Holy" means "set apart". So what makes holy water holy, what is it set apart for, and how do we ask that it be made holy?
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #43 on: January 14, 2012, 03:29:05 AM »

There may well be differing traditions about Holy Water, but in the Russian and Serbian Churches there is quite a major difference between Theophany Water and regular Holy Water.

Theohany Water is considered to be "Agiasmo" - a "great holy thing."   It is one of the Holy Mysteries (Sacraments) of the Church.

Other Holy Water is simply blessed by a priest.

A reading of both Services will reveal much of the theology. 

Saint John Maximovitch has a small article on Theophany Water but I cannot find the entire thing, only an extract

 http://www.orthodoxphotos.com/readings/john/2/

Holy Water

On Theophany, the Day of the Lord's Baptism, every year a great miracle is performed. The Holy Spirit, coming down upon the water, changes its natural properties. It becomes incorrupt, not spoiling, remaining transparent and fresh for many years. This Holy Water receives the grace to heal illnesses, to drive away demons and every evil power, to preserve people and their dwellings from every danger, to sanctify various objects whether for church or home use. Therefore, Orthodox Christians with reverence drink Holy Water — a great Agiasma (holy thing), as the Greeks call it.

One should always have at home enough Theophany water to last the whole year, and make use of it at every need: in cases of illness, leaving on a journey, whenever one is upset, students prior to examinations, etc. People who drink a little Holy Water daily, before eating any kind of food, do well. It strengthens the powers of our soul—if it is done with prayer and reverence, and one does not merely expect a mechanical result from it.

Every priest should take care to bless a sufficient quantity of water for his church, so that it will be on hand for the course of the whole year for every need and to be given out to those who ask for it; and parishioners should provide themselves at Theophany with Holy Water for the whole year and even so that it can be kept for future years.
Logged
Andrew21091
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 1,269



« Reply #44 on: January 14, 2012, 11:47:47 AM »

^ Doesn't mean anything.  Bishops and priests betray the faith all the time, the Balamand Agreement being but one example. 

Then why should we even trust them in the first place? They were appointed shepherds over the flock of Christ. If they betray the faith, then maybe the gates of hades have prevailed. By this reasoning, then perhaps it would be better for us to reject bishops and the priesthood and become priestless Old Believers.
Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,408


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #45 on: January 14, 2012, 11:51:36 AM »

^ Doesn't mean anything.  Bishops and priests betray the faith all the time, the Balamand Agreement being but one example. 

Then why should we even trust them in the first place? They were appointed shepherds over the flock of Christ. If they betray the faith, then maybe the gates of hades have prevailed. By this reasoning, then perhaps it would be better for us to reject bishops and the priesthood and become priestless Old Believers.

and succumb to the ultimate siren call of the 'logic' of the dark one...Human vanity has no bounds if unchecked. Not a good idea.
Logged
Andrew21091
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 1,269



« Reply #46 on: January 14, 2012, 12:00:40 PM »

^ Doesn't mean anything.  Bishops and priests betray the faith all the time, the Balamand Agreement being but one example. 

Then why should we even trust them in the first place? They were appointed shepherds over the flock of Christ. If they betray the faith, then maybe the gates of hades have prevailed. By this reasoning, then perhaps it would be better for us to reject bishops and the priesthood and become priestless Old Believers.

and succumb to the ultimate siren call of the 'logic' of the dark one...Human vanity has no bounds if unchecked. Not a good idea.

I agree with you. I'm just puzzled by statements like those made by Ionnis. How are we supposed to trust anything that the Church has done if "Bishops and priests betray the faith all the time"? Why remain in communion with anyone when the Bishops are just going to fall into heresy and lead us all to the fires of hell?
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,648



« Reply #47 on: January 14, 2012, 12:08:54 PM »


If you've got too much, just water your plants with it.  That way you'll make room for this year's water.

I know folks who drink of it every morning.

I usually reserve it for an "as needed" basis.  If someone is really sick, etc.

I also give my godkids a drink of holy water as they leave for their first day of school.  My mother always did that for us, so, I have continued it with my godchildren.


My sons used to refer to drinking "good guy water." angel
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,648



« Reply #48 on: January 14, 2012, 12:11:40 PM »

In this context I am afraid Orthodox Church has the position that Catholic Church has lost the "Apostolic Succession" by adding human conceptions to the Original Faith.

That isn't the official teaching of the Orthodox Church. Orthodox hierarchs accept that the Roman Catholic Church has apostolic succession and have valid sacraments.

"13...On each side it is recognized that what Christ has entrusted to his Church - profession of apostolic faith, participation in the same sacraments, above all the one priesthood celebrating the one sacrifice of Christ, the apostolic succession of bishops - cannot be considered the exclusive property of one of our Churches.

14. It is in this perspective that the Catholic Churches and the Orthodox Churches recognize each other as Sister Churches, responsible together for maintaining the Church of God in fidelity to the divine purpose, most especially in what concerns unity."

This is from the Balamand declaration which representatives the majority of the Orthodox Churches. You may believe that the Catholic Church has lost its Apostolic Succession, but it isn't what our bishops believe.
The Balamand declaration isn't the official teaching of the Orthodox Church, nor FWIW, the official teaching of the Vatican.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Cognomen
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Phyletism Rules, OK
Posts: 1,968


Ungrateful Biped


« Reply #49 on: January 14, 2012, 12:34:02 PM »

In this context I am afraid Orthodox Church has the position that Catholic Church has lost the "Apostolic Succession" by adding human conceptions to the Original Faith.

That isn't the official teaching of the Orthodox Church. Orthodox hierarchs accept that the Roman Catholic Church has apostolic succession and have valid sacraments.

As others have pointed out, while some have put this forward, it is not the teaching of the Church.  Very odd that you present it as such, particularly the valid sacrament bit.

You think the Orthodox Church would deny its members access to valid sacraments and refuse to administer sacraments to those otherwise receiving them due to some thousand year old squabble?   
Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).
Ionnis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 1,071



« Reply #50 on: January 14, 2012, 01:47:41 PM »

^ Doesn't mean anything.  Bishops and priests betray the faith all the time, the Balamand Agreement being but one example. 

Then why should we even trust them in the first place? They were appointed shepherds over the flock of Christ. If they betray the faith, then maybe the gates of hades have prevailed. By this reasoning, then perhaps it would be better for us to reject bishops and the priesthood and become priestless Old Believers.

Andrew, you know the Balamand Agreement is controversial and not widely accepted.  You know that it isn't considered the universal Orthodox teaching, even by those who did sign it.  I was concerned that you were presenting it as the Orthodox teaching.  I encourage you to find the joint response by all twenty monasteries on the Holy Mountain. 

And I think it is naive to think that bishops and priests don't betray the Faith.  Many betrayed it during the Arian controversies.  So many did that we got the phrase, "Athanasius against the world."  It didn't mean hell prevailed.  No one called for a priestless Orthodoxy.  I just think we have to be discerning.  Just because a man is bishop or priest doesn't automatically mean that we blindly follow him.  I don't think all bishops and priests betray the Faith all the time, but the Faith is betrayed all the time.  I think that the Balamand Agreement is one of those instances and I know I'm not alone in feeling this way. 

I won't say anything further in this thread. 
Logged

"If you cannot find Christ in the beggar at the church door, you will not find Him in the chalice.”  -The Divine John Chrysostom

“Till we can become divine, we must be content to be human, lest in our hurry for change we sink to something lower.” -Anthony Trollope
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,408


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #51 on: January 14, 2012, 01:54:06 PM »

In this context I am afraid Orthodox Church has the position that Catholic Church has lost the "Apostolic Succession" by adding human conceptions to the Original Faith.

That isn't the official teaching of the Orthodox Church. Orthodox hierarchs accept that the Roman Catholic Church has apostolic succession and have valid sacraments.

As others have pointed out, while some have put this forward, it is not the teaching of the Church.  Very odd that you present it as such, particularly the valid sacrament bit.

You think the Orthodox Church would deny its members access to valid sacraments and refuse to administer sacraments to those otherwise receiving them due to some thousand year old squabble?   

Yes - there is a difference between the Fullness of Faith and Apostolic Succession.
Logged
Cognomen
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Phyletism Rules, OK
Posts: 1,968


Ungrateful Biped


« Reply #52 on: January 14, 2012, 03:36:15 PM »

I just think we have to be discerning.  Just because a man is bishop or priest doesn't automatically mean that we blindly follow him.  I don't think all bishops and priests betray the Faith all the time, but the Faith is betrayed all the time.  I think that the Balamand Agreement is one of those instances and I know I'm not alone in feeling this way.

Great post, and you are correct about not being alone on this.
Logged

North American Eastern Orthodox Parish Council Delegate for the Canonization of Saints Twin Towers and Pentagon, as well as the Propagation of the Doctrine of the Assumption of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 (NAEOPCDCSTTPPDAMAFM®).
William
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Posts: 4,315


« Reply #53 on: January 14, 2012, 05:02:21 PM »

Anyway, is it fine for me to keep a jar of the Holy Water in the fridge, or should it be kept in an icon corner?

I keep mine in my icon corner.

Is it sanitary to drink room temperature water that's been sitting for a while?
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #54 on: January 14, 2012, 07:22:49 PM »

^ Doesn't mean anything.  Bishops and priests betray the faith all the time, the Balamand Agreement being but one example. 

Then why should we even trust them in the first place? They were appointed shepherds over the flock of Christ. If they betray the faith, then maybe the gates of hades have prevailed. By this reasoning, then perhaps it would be better for us to reject bishops and the priesthood and become priestless Old Believers.

It should be stated very clearly -  OUR BISHOPS AND PRIESTS HAVE NOT BETRAYED US.

Ioannis, have you read up on Balamand?


1.  Eight of the Orthodox Churches did not participate

2.  Orthodox attendees were not of the highest ecumenical level - for example, Russia sent ONE representative, just a monk

3.  Balamand was met with complete disdain by the Churches.  No Synod ratified it.  It just dropped unto a black hole.

THERE  WAS  NO  BETRAYAL  OF  THE FAITH  BY OUR BISHOPS  AND  PRIESTS.



Logged
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #55 on: January 14, 2012, 08:45:00 PM »

I would consider Orthodox holy water to be holy, but then again I would consider Orthodox Sacraments to be graced as well. I would not partake of either because I would not want to offend the Orthodox.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #56 on: January 14, 2012, 09:44:13 PM »

I would consider Orthodox holy water to be holy, but then again I would consider Orthodox Sacraments to be graced as well. I would not partake of either because I would not want to offend the Orthodox.

Wyatt, enjoy the holy water!   We use it on cows and cars, on everything really.
Logged
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #57 on: January 14, 2012, 11:12:07 PM »

I would consider Orthodox holy water to be holy, but then again I would consider Orthodox Sacraments to be graced as well. I would not partake of either because I would not want to offend the Orthodox.

Wyatt, enjoy the holy water!   We use it on cows and cars, on everything really.
Good to know that I'm not beneath cows and cars in Orthodox eyes. Tongue
« Last Edit: January 14, 2012, 11:12:24 PM by Wyatt » Logged
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,580



« Reply #58 on: January 14, 2012, 11:20:14 PM »

I would consider Orthodox holy water to be holy, but then again I would consider Orthodox Sacraments to be graced as well. I would not partake of either because I would not want to offend the Orthodox.

Wyatt, enjoy the holy water!   We use it on cows and cars, on everything really.
Good to know that I'm not beneath cows and cars in Orthodox eyes. Tongue
Soup too, so I have been told, can be blessed with some holy water. Tongue
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
Ionnis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 1,071



« Reply #59 on: January 14, 2012, 11:31:41 PM »

^ Doesn't mean anything.  Bishops and priests betray the faith all the time, the Balamand Agreement being but one example. 

Then why should we even trust them in the first place? They were appointed shepherds over the flock of Christ. If they betray the faith, then maybe the gates of hades have prevailed. By this reasoning, then perhaps it would be better for us to reject bishops and the priesthood and become priestless Old Believers.

It should be stated very clearly -  OUR BISHOPS AND PRIESTS HAVE NOT BETRAYED US.

Ioannis, have you read up on Balamand?


1.  Eight of the Orthodox Churches did not participate

2.  Orthodox attendees were not of the highest ecumenical level - for example, Russia sent ONE representative, just a monk

3.  Balamand was met with complete disdain by the Churches.  No Synod ratified it.  It just dropped unto a black hole.

THERE  WAS  NO  BETRAYAL  OF  THE FAITH  BY OUR BISHOPS  AND  PRIESTS.





Thank you very much, Father!  My initial post seems to have been poorly worded because it didn't convey to others what I meant.  I apologize for that to all I scandalized.  I know that the Churches did not betray the Faith nor did the vast majority of the bishops and priests of the Church.  I am still a member of the Orthodox Church after all.  :-) I just get frustrated when a couple of bishops go off and do their own thing and then give a false impression.  My apologies. 
Logged

"If you cannot find Christ in the beggar at the church door, you will not find Him in the chalice.”  -The Divine John Chrysostom

“Till we can become divine, we must be content to be human, lest in our hurry for change we sink to something lower.” -Anthony Trollope
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #60 on: January 14, 2012, 11:43:10 PM »

^ Doesn't mean anything.  Bishops and priests betray the faith all the time, the Balamand Agreement being but one example.  

Then why should we even trust them in the first place? They were appointed shepherds over the flock of Christ. If they betray the faith, then maybe the gates of hades have prevailed. By this reasoning, then perhaps it would be better for us to reject bishops and the priesthood and become priestless Old Believers.

It should be stated very clearly -  OUR BISHOPS AND PRIESTS HAVE NOT BETRAYED US.

Ioannis, have you read up on Balamand?


1.  Eight of the Orthodox Churches did not participate

2.  Orthodox attendees were not of the highest ecumenical level - for example, Russia sent ONE representative, just a monk

3.  Balamand was met with complete disdain by the Churches.  No Synod ratified it.  It just dropped unto a black hole.

THERE  WAS  NO  BETRAYAL  OF  THE FAITH  BY OUR BISHOPS  AND  PRIESTS.





Thank you very much, Father!  My initial post seems to have been poorly worded because it didn't convey to others what I meant.  I apologize for that to all I scandalized.  I know that the Churches did not betray the Faith nor did the vast majority of the bishops and priests of the Church.  I am still a member of the Orthodox Church after all.  :-) I just get frustrated when a couple of bishops go off and do their own thing and then give a false impression.  My apologies.  

Not a problem!   There seems to be a quite widespread belief that the Orthodox Churches signed onto Balamand.  It's good to knock that idea on the head when it pops up..  laugh
« Last Edit: January 14, 2012, 11:43:55 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #61 on: January 15, 2012, 10:08:02 AM »

Anyway, is it fine for me to keep a jar of the Holy Water in the fridge, or should it be kept in an icon corner?
I keep mine in my icon corner.
Is it sanitary to drink room temperature water that's been sitting for a while?

I have a bottle with some from last year. I don't remember exactly when the last time it was that I took a sip from it, but it would have been after it sat for "a while" and I'm still alive. I'm not going to drink any right now just to scientifically prove anything, but I will tell you that it is still clear with nothing visible growing in it.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
Basil 320
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Online Online

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,043



« Reply #62 on: January 16, 2012, 03:18:26 AM »

Yes, Holy Water of the Roman Catholic Church is "holy."
Logged

"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #63 on: January 16, 2012, 01:40:09 PM »

Yes, Holy Water of the Roman Catholic Church is "holy."
Really? Explain.
Logged
Basil 320
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Online Online

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,043



« Reply #64 on: January 16, 2012, 06:44:38 PM »

While during the later part of the first millennium the Roman Catholic Church, which was founded within the Apostolic tradition of  the Undivided Christian Church--the "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church," has innovated teaching and practice, and has wrongly promulgated innovative "doctrine," unfounded in scriptures, and thus, does not share in the fullness of the Faith, it has not lost holiness, its ability to ask and secure God's blessing upon water, as practiced by the early church.  Admittedly, I cannot prove that this position is correct, but it is my opinion and is supported by the former bishop of the diocese in which I am subject.  Who among us would cast aside water blessed in today's Roman Catholic Church, as a meaningless substance, not possessing holiness?
Logged

"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,472


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #65 on: January 16, 2012, 07:22:32 PM »

While during the later part of the first millennium the Roman Catholic Church, which was founded within the Apostolic tradition of  the Undivided Christian Church--the "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church," has innovated teaching and practice, and has wrongly promulgated innovative "doctrine," unfounded in scriptures, and thus, does not share in the fullness of the Faith, it has not lost holiness, its ability to ask and secure God's blessing upon water, as practiced by the early church.  Admittedly, I cannot prove that this position is correct, but it is my opinion and is supported by the former bishop of the diocese in which I am subject.  Who among us would cast aside water blessed in today's Roman Catholic Church, as a meaningless substance, not possessing holiness?

stashko
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #66 on: January 17, 2012, 12:33:16 AM »

While during the later part of the first millennium the Roman Catholic Church, which was founded within the Apostolic tradition of  the Undivided Christian Church--the "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church," has innovated teaching and practice, and has wrongly promulgated innovative "doctrine," unfounded in scriptures, and thus, does not share in the fullness of the Faith, it has not lost holiness, its ability to ask and secure God's blessing upon water, as practiced by the early church.  Admittedly, I cannot prove that this position is correct, but it is my opinion and is supported by the former bishop of the diocese in which I am subject.  Who among us would cast aside water blessed in today's Roman Catholic Church, as a meaningless substance, not possessing holiness?
I am very impressed by this. I feel the same way about Eastern Orthodox Sacraments and holy water (that they are graced and holy), but have not heard of many Eastern Orthodox who feel the same way about our Church.  Smiley
Logged
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #67 on: January 17, 2012, 12:41:54 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
Is the catholic holy water "holy"

Does it burn when the sinner that I am  touches it? Seems to be yes..

 I suppose it must be Holy Water then Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
William
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Posts: 4,315


« Reply #68 on: January 17, 2012, 01:01:26 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name Does it burn when the sinner that I am  touches it? Seems to be yes..

 I suppose it must be Holy Water then Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie

One time my dad got a static shock when he touched the Holy Water as we were leaving the RC Cathedral. I lol'd.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
Basil 320
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Online Online

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,043



« Reply #69 on: January 17, 2012, 04:10:32 AM »

Re. Reply No. 66,  Wyatt,

The overwhelming majority of Eastern Orthodox Christians who I know, fellow parishioners mostly, and parishioners of local parishes, believe Orthodoxy has a unique tradition to which they are attracted, but they also think the services are too long, have little interest in the Divine Services of the church other than the Sunday Divine Liturgy, do not think the differences between the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church are substantive (very typically rolling their eyes when I explain the "innovations;"  they think the Orthodox Church governing structure is lacking, too loose, more authority should be granted to the primates as opposed to the local bishops), and wish there could be some sort of union between the churches wherein, the Orthodox could retain their Eastern liturgical tradition, but there would be union between the churches; (sort of like the Roman Catholic Byzantine Rite, I guess).  Many perceive that our differences are for theologians to argue about, that the common laity don't care about these disputes, and that, a union betwen the Orthodox and Catholics, and perhaps traditional Protestants, is vital to combat the real evil in the world, the Moslems.  I AM NOT MAKING ANY OF THESE ARGUMENTS AND DO NOT AGREE WITH THEM,  but this is my opinion of what an overwhelming majority of common laity I encounter in the Orthodox Churches in the United States hold.  They typically attend church perhaps once a month or so, and are not involved in parish ministries (like Bible Study), other than, perhaps, youth activities for their children.

One reason for much of these types of feelings I think, is that our differences are not really emphasized in sermons, (Orthodox teaching is emphasised, our life in Christ is emphasized, our path to salvation too, but not how our theology differs with Catholicism).  Differences are mentioned in catechism classes, but they are not emphasized and very few parishioners attend.  We had an assistant priest for a year or so, who would tend to stress our differences with Roman Catholics, and he became quite controversial.  Another reason I think for this, what I would call weak theology, is attributable to the significant amount of intermarriages in our families.  I recall after hearing one of these sermons from the assistant priest I referred to, a little girl cried and asked our presiding priest if her grandmother (who was Roman Catholic) was going to go the hell.

Another example of how I find peoples views such as I'm stating, is the experience of my parish's nameday, June 29th, the Feast Day of Sts. Peter and Paul.  Frequently, the former bishop of our diocese would be conducting a pastoral visitation on that day, as our parish is named for St. Paul the Apostle.  He was a co-chair of the dialogues between Orthodoxy and Catholicism in North America.  In his sermons on those days, he would typically note that a delegation of the Ecumenical Patriarchate was making a fraternal visit to His Holiness the Pope, at the Vatican on that day, the occasion of the Patronal Feast of the Church of Rome.  He would also point out the differences between the Church of Rome and the Orthodox Churches.  Our parishioners think he is a critic of Catholicism, while many in the Orthodox Church consider him a modernist who is too cosy with Roman Catholics.

Some of my experience too, in this regard, is feed back that I get from Orthodox who attend the church tours that I give during our festivals.  Explaining the symbolism of the church architecture, accoutrements, and iconography, explains our theology, and prompts feed back from those who have learned something in these tours.

Just some perspective of what we have to deal with in some of our parishes.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 04:21:33 AM by Basil 320 » Logged

"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #70 on: January 17, 2012, 04:46:02 AM »

While during the later part of the first millennium the Roman Catholic Church, which was founded within the Apostolic tradition of  the Undivided Christian Church--the "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church," has innovated teaching and practice, and has wrongly promulgated innovative "doctrine," unfounded in scriptures, and thus, does not share in the fullness of the Faith, it has not lost holiness, its ability to ask and secure God's blessing upon water, as practiced by the early church.  Admittedly, I cannot prove that this position is correct, but it is my opinion and is supported by the former bishop of the diocese in which I am subject.  Who among us would cast aside water blessed in today's Roman Catholic Church, as a meaningless substance, not possessing holiness?

stashko

 Wink
Logged

LBK
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,715


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #71 on: January 17, 2012, 08:04:40 AM »

While during the later part of the first millennium the Roman Catholic Church, which was founded within the Apostolic tradition of  the Undivided Christian Church--the "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church," has innovated teaching and practice, and has wrongly promulgated innovative "doctrine," unfounded in scriptures, and thus, does not share in the fullness of the Faith, it has not lost holiness, its ability to ask and secure God's blessing upon water, as practiced by the early church.  Admittedly, I cannot prove that this position is correct, but it is my opinion and is supported by the former bishop of the diocese in which I am subject.  Who among us would cast aside water blessed in today's Roman Catholic Church, as a meaningless substance, not possessing holiness?

stashko

 Wink

... don't forget pasadi97 ....
Logged
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox. With some feta, please.
Posts: 6,729



« Reply #72 on: January 17, 2012, 08:15:52 AM »

Who among us would cast aside water blessed in today's Roman Catholic Church, as a meaningless substance, not possessing holiness?

o/

Though I don't believe anything in this World is meaningless and without holines.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 08:18:16 AM by Alpo » Logged

TheMathematician
Banished and Disgraced
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Serbian
Posts: 1,464


Formerly known as Montalo


« Reply #73 on: January 17, 2012, 09:20:35 AM »

While during the later part of the first millennium the Roman Catholic Church, which was founded within the Apostolic tradition of  the Undivided Christian Church--the "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church," has innovated teaching and practice, and has wrongly promulgated innovative "doctrine," unfounded in scriptures, and thus, does not share in the fullness of the Faith, it has not lost holiness, its ability to ask and secure God's blessing upon water, as practiced by the early church.  Admittedly, I cannot prove that this position is correct, but it is my opinion and is supported by the former bishop of the diocese in which I am subject.  Who among us would cast aside water blessed in today's Roman Catholic Church, as a meaningless substance, not possessing holiness?

stashko

 Wink

... don't forget pasadi97 ....
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,39056.msg629862.html#msg629862

Ok. It is simple. On one bottle you put normal water. On one bottle you put Holy water from eastern orthodox Church. On one bottle you put Holy water from Roman Catholic Church. On one bottle you put nothing from protestant Church.

Then you wait 40 days. Then you try drinking and smelling and check to see if you see a difference. If you do that, discharging of Holy Water has to be done properly. I hope some guys exit uncommon sense denial process. I mean you can go and see yearly miracles with your eyes.
the link is a link to the OP that i hav quoted
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 09:21:03 AM by TheMathematician » Logged

SCREW BON JOVI!
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,408


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #74 on: January 17, 2012, 10:57:05 AM »

While during the later part of the first millennium the Roman Catholic Church, which was founded within the Apostolic tradition of  the Undivided Christian Church--the "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church," has innovated teaching and practice, and has wrongly promulgated innovative "doctrine," unfounded in scriptures, and thus, does not share in the fullness of the Faith, it has not lost holiness, its ability to ask and secure God's blessing upon water, as practiced by the early church.  Admittedly, I cannot prove that this position is correct, but it is my opinion and is supported by the former bishop of the diocese in which I am subject.  Who among us would cast aside water blessed in today's Roman Catholic Church, as a meaningless substance, not possessing holiness?

Thank you for your beautiful and reassuring words as they accurately express what I have been taught, and what I believe to be, the proper expression of our differences with Rome.
Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,408


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #75 on: January 17, 2012, 11:20:09 AM »

Re. Reply No. 66,  Wyatt,

The overwhelming majority of Eastern Orthodox Christians who I know, fellow parishioners mostly, and parishioners of local parishes, believe Orthodoxy has a unique tradition to which they are attracted, but they also think the services are too long, have little interest in the Divine Services of the church other than the Sunday Divine Liturgy, do not think the differences between the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church are substantive (very typically rolling their eyes when I explain the "innovations;"  they think the Orthodox Church governing structure is lacking, too loose, more authority should be granted to the primates as opposed to the local bishops), and wish there could be some sort of union between the churches wherein, the Orthodox could retain their Eastern liturgical tradition, but there would be union between the churches; (sort of like the Roman Catholic Byzantine Rite, I guess).  Many perceive that our differences are for theologians to argue about, that the common laity don't care about these disputes, and that, a union betwen the Orthodox and Catholics, and perhaps traditional Protestants, is vital to combat the real evil in the world, the Moslems.  I AM NOT MAKING ANY OF THESE ARGUMENTS AND DO NOT AGREE WITH THEM,  but this is my opinion of what an overwhelming majority of common laity I encounter in the Orthodox Churches in the United States hold.  They typically attend church perhaps once a month or so, and are not involved in parish ministries (like Bible Study), other than, perhaps, youth activities for their children.

One reason for much of these types of feelings I think, is that our differences are not really emphasized in sermons, (Orthodox teaching is emphasised, our life in Christ is emphasized, our path to salvation too, but not how our theology differs with Catholicism).  Differences are mentioned in catechism classes, but they are not emphasized and very few parishioners attend.  We had an assistant priest for a year or so, who would tend to stress our differences with Roman Catholics, and he became quite controversial.  Another reason I think for this, what I would call weak theology, is attributable to the significant amount of intermarriages in our families.  I recall after hearing one of these sermons from the assistant priest I referred to, a little girl cried and asked our presiding priest if her grandmother (who was Roman Catholic) was going to go the hell.

Another example of how I find peoples views such as I'm stating, is the experience of my parish's nameday, June 29th, the Feast Day of Sts. Peter and Paul.  Frequently, the former bishop of our diocese would be conducting a pastoral visitation on that day, as our parish is named for St. Paul the Apostle.  He was a co-chair of the dialogues between Orthodoxy and Catholicism in North America.  In his sermons on those days, he would typically note that a delegation of the Ecumenical Patriarchate was making a fraternal visit to His Holiness the Pope, at the Vatican on that day, the occasion of the Patronal Feast of the Church of Rome.  He would also point out the differences between the Church of Rome and the Orthodox Churches.  Our parishioners think he is a critic of Catholicism, while many in the Orthodox Church consider him a modernist who is too cosy with Roman Catholics.

Some of my experience too, in this regard, is feed back that I get from Orthodox who attend the church tours that I give during our festivals.  Explaining the symbolism of the church architecture, accoutrements, and iconography, explains our theology, and prompts feed back from those who have learned something in these tours.

Just some perspective of what we have to deal with in some of our parishes.

That is a great 'boots on the ground' analysis of the local parish and how these matters relate there.

The truth of the matter is that for the Orthodox, our relationship with Rome is complex. As Basil noted, regardless of what point of view you take - you are caught between the Devil and deep blue sea. A fair critique of Catholicism, distinguishing it from Orthodoxy from the pulpit and the pastor faces 'weird' questions from mixed marriage couples and their children - such as 'is Gramma going to hell'. Then there are those who will criticize you if you take a position any less extreme than some of our posters here online.

I think that most recognize that Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism dating from the first millennium still share a large amount of common history, practice, eccelsiology (but for 'he whose name shall not be mentioned'), theology and doctrine (I know - the IC, purgatory etc... but we lived as one for a long time with those concepts without breaking communion, for example the Augustinian concepts of 'original sin' and the  nature of man).   Because of this reality, many of us and probably most of our leaders want Catholics to 'like' us and, more importantly, respect us for what we are. (What 'like us' actually means varies considerably among us. )

As to the fruits of 'ecumenism' and dialogue between us, I don't think they have brought 'reunion' any closer but I do believe that as to 'liking' and respecting each other, such efforts have borne fruit and been worthwhile.

So the answer to the OP's question is yes.


Logged
SakranMM
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 327

Most Holy Theotokos, save us!


« Reply #76 on: January 17, 2012, 02:02:09 PM »

Holy water isn't "magic."  Don't turn it into a magic act.  It can go corrupt; it doesn't mean it's not holy. 

"Holy" means set apart, sanctified for God.  When we recognize something as holy, we are simply restoring it to its true purpose - as a means of communing with God; we bless water because it is a basic element of creation, and we can use it to sanctify our homes, ourselves, etc...; in other words, to reclaim a part of the fallen world for God.

Don't overdo the analysis of the holy water.

Fr. Michael
Logged

"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us..."
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #77 on: January 17, 2012, 06:43:21 PM »

While during the later part of the first millennium the Roman Catholic Church, which was founded within the Apostolic tradition of  the Undivided Christian Church--the "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church," has innovated teaching and practice, and has wrongly promulgated innovative "doctrine," unfounded in scriptures, and thus, does not share in the fullness of the Faith, it has not lost holiness, its ability to ask and secure God's blessing upon water, as practiced by the early church.  Admittedly, I cannot prove that this position is correct, but it is my opinion and is supported by the former bishop of the diocese in which I am subject.  Who among us would cast aside water blessed in today's Roman Catholic Church, as a meaningless substance, not possessing holiness?

stashko

 Wink

... don't forget pasadi97 ....


Could never forget him, and his words of wisdom, to the blind... police
Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #78 on: January 17, 2012, 07:05:49 PM »

Holy water isn't "magic."  Don't turn it into a magic act.  It can go corrupt; it doesn't mean it's not holy.  

"Holy" means set apart, sanctified for God.  When we recognize something as holy, we are simply restoring it to its true purpose - as a means of communing with God; we bless water because it is a basic element of creation, and we can use it to sanctify our homes, ourselves, etc...; in other words, to reclaim a part of the fallen world for God.

Don't overdo the analysis of the holy water.

Fr. Michael

When seeing a patient in a psychiatric unit for the first time, I will pray with them and ask them to kiss the precious cross and to drink some holy water, all the while attentive to their behaviour in order to see if there may be anything demon-related in their problems.  I honestly would not be comfortable using Catholic holy water.  In fact I would not use it.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 07:06:48 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,123



« Reply #79 on: January 17, 2012, 08:54:12 PM »

While during the later part of the first millennium the Roman Catholic Church, which was founded within the Apostolic tradition of  the Undivided Christian Church--the "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church," has innovated teaching and practice, and has wrongly promulgated innovative "doctrine," unfounded in scriptures, and thus, does not share in the fullness of the Faith, it has not lost holiness, its ability to ask and secure God's blessing upon water, as practiced by the early church.  Admittedly, I cannot prove that this position is correct, but it is my opinion and is supported by the former bishop of the diocese in which I am subject.  Who among us would cast aside water blessed in today's Roman Catholic Church, as a meaningless substance, not possessing holiness?

Hi Basil. Great post. I'm curious whether you would say the same about Anglican holy water as well?
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Cavaradossi
法網恢恢,疏而不漏
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Chalcedonian Automaton Serial No. 5Aj4bx9
Jurisdiction: Chalcedonian Automaton Factory 5
Posts: 1,580



« Reply #80 on: January 17, 2012, 09:53:15 PM »

Holy water isn't "magic."  Don't turn it into a magic act.  It can go corrupt; it doesn't mean it's not holy.  

"Holy" means set apart, sanctified for God.  When we recognize something as holy, we are simply restoring it to its true purpose - as a means of communing with God; we bless water because it is a basic element of creation, and we can use it to sanctify our homes, ourselves, etc...; in other words, to reclaim a part of the fallen world for God.

Don't overdo the analysis of the holy water.

Fr. Michael

When seeing a patient in a psychiatric unit for the first time, I will pray with them and ask them to kiss the precious cross and to drink some holy water, all the while attentive to their behaviour in order to see if there may be anything demon-related in their problems.  I honestly would not be comfortable using Catholic holy water.  In fact I would not use it.

I don't necessarily see anything at odds between these two statements.
Logged

Be comforted, and have faith, O Israel, for your God is infinitely simple and one, composed of no parts.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #81 on: January 17, 2012, 10:39:42 PM »

Holy water isn't "magic."  Don't turn it into a magic act.  It can go corrupt; it doesn't mean it's not holy.  

"Holy" means set apart, sanctified for God.  When we recognize something as holy, we are simply restoring it to its true purpose - as a means of communing with God; we bless water because it is a basic element of creation, and we can use it to sanctify our homes, ourselves, etc...; in other words, to reclaim a part of the fallen world for God.

Don't overdo the analysis of the holy water.

Fr. Michael

When seeing a patient in a psychiatric unit for the first time, I will pray with them and ask them to kiss the precious cross and to drink some holy water, all the while attentive to their behaviour in order to see if there may be anything demon-related in their problems.  I honestly would not be comfortable using Catholic holy water.  In fact I would not use it.

I don't necessarily see anything at odds between these two statements.

My apologies.  I did not intend to say there was anything at odds.  I just hung my post on Sakran's post.
Logged
Basil 320
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Online Online

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,043



« Reply #82 on: January 18, 2012, 01:05:00 AM »

Reply No. 79, Peter J,

I would have formerly said the same thing about the Anglican Church, or for that matter, any of the traditional Protestant churches, who profess the Holy Trinity, "one in essence and undivided," but I'm very uncomfortable with the confessions who now ordain women and openly practicing homosexuals.  I don't want to say they have no grace or holiness, but I am uncomfortable with the vile behavior that these churches are now openly accepting among their clergy, even hierarchy.  I'm sorry, I don't mean to be judgemental, but these changes seem too bizarre to me and too inconsistent with the traditions and practices of the Early Church.  I'm sorry but I am scandalized to see these types, women and openly practicing homosexuals, wearing clerical vestments; it looks to me like a layman making fun of clergy by dressing for Halloween as a clergyman.  I don't mean to alter the discussion in this topic, just responding to a poster's inquiry to me.
Logged

"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
SakranMM
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 327

Most Holy Theotokos, save us!


« Reply #83 on: January 18, 2012, 08:17:22 AM »

Oh, all is well.  I wasn't implying that I would use Catholic holy water.  I won't; I am an Orthodox priest, and I use water blessed according to our Orthodox rites.  My point was that we should not reduce holy things to an analysis of senses/science on one hand, or reduce it to superstition or magic on the other.
Logged

"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us..."
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,123



« Reply #84 on: January 18, 2012, 12:54:00 PM »

Thanks for the clarification Basil.

Reply No. 79, Peter J,

I would have formerly said the same thing about the Anglican Church, or for that matter, any of the traditional Protestant churches, who profess the Holy Trinity, "one in essence and undivided," but I'm very uncomfortable with the confessions who now ordain women and openly practicing homosexuals.  I don't want to say they have no grace or holiness, but I am uncomfortable with the vile behavior that these churches are now openly accepting among their clergy, even hierarchy.  I'm sorry, I don't mean to be judgemental, but these changes seem too bizarre to me and too inconsistent with the traditions and practices of the Early Church.  I'm sorry but I am scandalized to see these types, women and openly practicing homosexuals, wearing clerical vestments; it looks to me like a layman making fun of clergy by dressing for Halloween as a clergyman.  I don't mean to alter the discussion in this topic, just responding to a poster's inquiry to me.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,123



« Reply #85 on: January 18, 2012, 12:54:43 PM »

I've never understood why it offensive. I had a Ukrainian Byzantine Catholic advisor who had no qualms about using the word to  describe herself.

About how long ago was this?
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #86 on: January 18, 2012, 03:59:24 PM »

I've never understood why it offensive. I had a Ukrainian Byzantine Catholic advisor who had no qualms about using the word to  describe herself.

About how long ago was this?

At the 2000 Meeting in Baltimore of the Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue Between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church the word "uniate" was used by both Catholic and Orthodox delegates.  I have not found the minutes of the Meeting but below is a report from ENS.

The Meeting by the way ended in bitter acrimony. A walkout by Cardinal Kasper and the Catholic delegates took place.  No Joint Statement was issued.

Ecumenical News International
Daily News Service / 03 February 2000

Uniate issue again disturbs Orthodox-Catholic relations

By Jonathan Luxmoore in Warsaw and Edmund Doogue in Geneva

3 February (ENI)--A long-standing conflict between the Orthodox Church and
Eastern Catholic churches - also referred to as Greek-Catholic churches or
"Uniates" - is threatening to heighten ecumenical tensions as the Vatican and
the Orthodox prepare to resurrect bilateral talks.

For more go to
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Orthodoxia/message/179
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 04:04:13 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,472


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #87 on: January 18, 2012, 04:07:59 PM »

I've never understood why it offensive. I had a Ukrainian Byzantine Catholic advisor who had no qualms about using the word to  describe herself.

I know a lot of African-Americans who use a certain word to describe themselves.  I also know a lot of African-Americans who balk at anyone using the same word.

If someone finds a label used to identify them offensive and an alternative is just as easy to use and is just as descriptive, the only reason to use the former is pride.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 04:08:29 PM by Schultz » Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #88 on: January 18, 2012, 04:39:13 PM »

If someone finds a label used to identify them offensive and an alternative is just as easy to use and is just as descriptive, the only reason to use the former is pride.

The term "uniate" was invented by the "Orthodox in union with Rome"  to describe themselves.  They wore it with pride.  In Europe the term is still used.  It is not so offensive there as it is now seen in the US.   Look at the writings of the Polish Professor Waclaw Hryniewicz, a Catholic theologian and director of the Ecumenical Institute at the Catholic University of Lublin
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 04:40:21 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,408


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #89 on: January 18, 2012, 04:46:56 PM »

If someone finds a label used to identify them offensive and an alternative is just as easy to use and is just as descriptive, the only reason to use the former is pride.

The term "uniate" was invented by the "Orthodox in union with Rome"  to describe themselves.  They wore it with pride.  In Europe the term is still used.  It is not so offensive there as it is now seen in the US.   Look at the writings of the Polish Professor Waclaw Hryniewicz, a Catholic theologian and director of the Ecumenical Institute at the Catholic University of Lublin

Like I've said before, I never sensed, growing up where and when I did that the 'U' word was offensive. The Orthodox and the Greek Catholics used it to refer to the Greek Catholics. Don't hear it so much nowadays so perhaps it just sounds offensive today. However, in deference to board policies, I abide by the rule - although I have 'slipped' from time to time when my fingers type faster than my brain!
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #90 on: January 18, 2012, 05:13:06 PM »

If someone finds a label used to identify them offensive and an alternative is just as easy to use and is just as descriptive, the only reason to use the former is pride.

The term "uniate" was invented by the "Orthodox in union with Rome"  to describe themselves.  They wore it with pride.  In Europe the term is still used.  It is not so offensive there as it is now seen in the US.   Look at the writings of the Polish Professor Waclaw Hryniewicz, a Catholic theologian and director of the Ecumenical Institute at the Catholic University of Lublin

Like I've said before, I never sensed, growing up where and when I did that the 'U' word was offensive. The Orthodox and the Greek Catholics used it to refer to the Greek Catholics. Don't hear it so much nowadays so perhaps it just sounds offensive today. However, in deference to board policies, I abide by the rule - although I have 'slipped' from time to time when my fingers type faster than my brain!

Board policies are wise because most members are American and there seems greater sensitivity there to some words.
Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,909


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #91 on: January 18, 2012, 05:40:21 PM »

I've never understood why it offensive. I had a Ukrainian Byzantine Catholic advisor who had no qualms about using the word to  describe herself.

The word itself is neutral.  It is the way it is used that makes it offensive.  Most Orthodox that insist on using it mean it as code for traitor/scum.  Vatican is a neutral word as well but from Isa's keyboard it becomes offensive.  Schismatic and dissident are neutral in themselves as well  but if I use them an alternative name for Orthodox they become offensive. 
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #92 on: January 18, 2012, 08:50:41 PM »

I've never understood why it offensive. I had a Ukrainian Byzantine Catholic advisor who had no qualms about using the word to  describe herself.

What I find offensive is "Orthodox in communion with Rome." It gnaws at my innards because it is 1) so obviously false and 2) an attempt to hijack our heritage.

Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,123



« Reply #93 on: January 18, 2012, 08:51:16 PM »

Schismatic and dissident are neutral in themselves

I don't think I can agree with you there. As Sir Thomas More said in A Man For All Seasons, about the word heretic, "It's not a likable word. It's not a likable thing."
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Tags: Holy Water blessed water cheval mort cheval ressuscité 
Pages: 1 2 3 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.276 seconds with 122 queries.