Author Topic: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?  (Read 224821 times)

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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #990 on: September 28, 2014, 12:21:22 AM »
It's about how someone uses the Church to give an impression of some teaching that the Church condemns.  That's why both are abhorrent.  Yes, pederasty is much more abhorrent, but that doesn't mean you'd rather have a 1000 of one vs. the other.  You should say, I'd rather have neither, even if you're inclined to be more vocally against one due to its more damaging effects on the people.

I'm too lazy to search through this whole thing, but basically, what I read, his racism was used as a way of promoting Orthodoxy.  This was no mere political view.  He had views that no Orthodox Christian should flaunt as a valid point of view.
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Offline Punch

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #991 on: September 28, 2014, 12:23:02 AM »
Yes. If you want to be buddies with a white supremacist crackpot, that is what you would be.



So, you think that someone who does not like Blacks and Jews is worse than someone who abuses little boys?  I knew you were liberal, but dang . . .
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline Rambam

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #992 on: September 28, 2014, 12:29:19 AM »
You don't think Fr. Adam used his position as a spiritual leader to obtain access to little boys and women? How is that not profoundly damaging to the Church and not worthy of our public and vigorous scorn?

Heimbach's offense was general -- people might listen to him and get the wrong idea that the Church supports phyletism. That's bad, and I get it.

Fr. Adam violently touched specific people while posing as a cleric.* The lives of those people and their relationship with the Church will never be the same. Lord have mercy -- he touches the Body and Blood with those same hands!

Heimbach's offenses pale in comparison.

We need to be putting billboards up with the names of these sexual predators in our midst, showing that we don't stand for that. But the inclination has been to hush it up or, at least, ignore it.  

*EDIT: I want to modify this last statement. Fr. Adam is not posing as a cleric. He actually is one. Still. Right now. It took Fr. Peter Jon about 5 seconds to expel Heimbach, and about 5 more seconds to write a press release. The clock is still ticking on Fr. Adam. It's been ticking since 1983, when he landed his first conviction.


It's about how someone uses the Church to give an impression of some teaching that the Church condemns.  That's why both are abhorrent.  Yes, pederasty is much more abhorrent, but that doesn't mean you'd rather have a 1000 of one vs. the other.  You should say, I'd rather have neither, even if you're inclined to be more vocally against one due to its more damaging effects on the people.

I'm too lazy to search through this whole thing, but basically, what I read, his racism was used as a way of promoting Orthodoxy.  This was no mere political view.  He had views that no Orthodox Christian should flaunt as a valid point of view.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2014, 12:32:31 AM by Rambam »

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #993 on: September 28, 2014, 12:32:30 AM »
Fr. Adam was suspended and I'm guessing everyone is just expecting that he will be defrocked. There is no way that he will ever be back in a position of any kind of authority in a parish. The Church may move slow, but it will get it worked out.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #994 on: September 28, 2014, 12:37:11 AM »
It's about how someone uses the Church to give an impression of some teaching that the Church condemns. That's why both are abhorrent.  Yes, pederasty is much more abhorrent, but that doesn't mean you'd rather have a 1000 of one vs. the other.  You should say, I'd rather have neither, even if you're inclined to be more vocally against one due to its more damaging effects on the people.

I'm too lazy to search through this whole thing, but basically, what I read, his racism was used as a way of promoting Orthodoxy.  This was no mere political view.  He had views that no Orthodox Christian should flaunt as a valid point of view.

Rambam, if you learn to read in between the lines you'll know that:

1. You're deliberately or undeliberately misrepresenting my post
2. Your constantly moving away from the subject at hand that I'm trying to bring back in the last paragraph of my post

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Offline Nephi

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #995 on: September 28, 2014, 12:38:34 AM »
Fr. Adam was suspended and I'm guessing everyone is just expecting that he will be defrocked. There is no way that he will ever be back in a position of any kind of authority in a parish. The Church may move slow, but it will get it worked out.

It is my understanding that most such cases do result in defrocking, especially after the Catholic Church's scandals and what-not. And Fr. Adam's original offense in the 80's was not known to the GOA at his ordination:

Quote
Metropoulos does have a criminal past. He was convicted of a sex crime in Michigan in 1983.
The Greek Archdiocese said it conducted a criminal background check on Father Metropolouos only in the states of Maine and Massachusetts when he was ordained in 2000, so the Michigan conviction didn't show up. They have since switched to a national background check

Offline Rambam

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #996 on: September 28, 2014, 12:43:07 AM »
Hey, sure don't want this to end up getting personal.

My point of contention with your statement was not that I thought you said racism is worse than pederasty. It was that you said Heimbach got what he deserved because he was speaking on behalf of the Church.

I was just trying to say that Fr. Adam's representation on behalf of the Church is much more weighty than anything Heimbach could lay claim to. The reason Fr. Adam's violation is much more than Heimbach's is exactly because he is an official representative of the Church.

So, I sure thought I was talking about the last paragraph of your post.

Anyway, I've got to blow. Gotta get back to studying "How to Read Between the Lines" ... I've got a quiz on Monday.

It's about how someone uses the Church to give an impression of some teaching that the Church condemns. That's why both are abhorrent.  Yes, pederasty is much more abhorrent, but that doesn't mean you'd rather have a 1000 of one vs. the other.  You should say, I'd rather have neither, even if you're inclined to be more vocally against one due to its more damaging effects on the people.

I'm too lazy to search through this whole thing, but basically, what I read, his racism was used as a way of promoting Orthodoxy.  This was no mere political view.  He had views that no Orthodox Christian should flaunt as a valid point of view.

Rambam, if you learn to read in between the lines you'll know that:

1. You're deliberately or undeliberately misrepresenting my post
2. Your constantly moving away from the subject at hand that I'm trying to bring back in the last paragraph of my post


« Last Edit: September 28, 2014, 12:47:14 AM by Rambam »

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #997 on: September 28, 2014, 12:49:15 AM »
Hey, sure don't want this to end up getting personal.

My point of contention with your statement was not that I thought you said racism is worse than pederasty. It was that you said Heimbach got what he deserved because he was speaking on behalf of the Church.

I was just trying to say that Fr. Adam's representation on behalf of the Church is much more weighty than anything Heimbach could lay claim to. The reason Fr. Adam's violation is much more than Heimbach's is exactly because he is an official representative of the Church.

So, I sure thought I was talking about the last paragraph of your post.

It's about how someone uses the Church to give an impression of some teaching that the Church condemns. That's why both are abhorrent.  Yes, pederasty is much more abhorrent, but that doesn't mean you'd rather have a 1000 of one vs. the other.  You should say, I'd rather have neither, even if you're inclined to be more vocally against one due to its more damaging effects on the people.

I'm too lazy to search through this whole thing, but basically, what I read, his racism was used as a way of promoting Orthodoxy.  This was no mere political view.  He had views that no Orthodox Christian should flaunt as a valid point of view.

Rambam, if you learn to read in between the lines you'll know that:

1. You're deliberately or undeliberately misrepresenting my post
2. Your constantly moving away from the subject at hand that I'm trying to bring back in the last paragraph of my post



And Fr. Adam will get his and worse.  Unlike Heimbach, the Church was not aware of this all this time (at least I hope so).  If it was, then your arguments are justified. But as Nephi suggests, I think it might be a bit judgmental to jump to conclusions that the Church was slow in condemning pedarasty by those who best should represent the church, i.e. the clerics.
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #998 on: September 28, 2014, 01:27:38 PM »
So whatever happened to this dude? Did he run for the hills once he realized that the EO ecclesiastical structure in America is full of nosy shills who will bow down to pressure from OC.net and bloggers his ideology stands in opposition to the teachings of Orthodox Christianity?  Or did he recant?

Fixed that for you, my Roman Catholic friend.

OC.net had nothing to do with his ultimate censure. If anything, it was the seeming hoards of angry people in Orthodox Facebook groups. This thread, this entire site even, is remarkably tame in contrast to what you can find on there, especially when Heimbach had his moment of fame.

It has nothing to do with bowing to pressure from Facebook or anywhere else.  His teachings are antithetical to those of the Church.  He publically declared that the Church endorses his teachings.  This needed to be publically corrected.  Case closed.

An interesting story and apart from the comments on "Jewish commissars" seems devoid of overtly white nationalist talking points.

And some of this kind of rhetoric:

Quote
General Wenck exemplified the virtues and values of a European man and of a Christian, we must do our best to follow in his footsteps and to be willing to give it all for Faith, family, and folk.

We all know the "dog whistle" meaning of such language to segregationists and those who otherwise revere the Nazis, however unobjectionable it might be if taken simply at face value.  I'm sure that was his intention.  "See, 'white nationalism' and segregation are not all that bad.  They can be compatible with Orthodoxy”.  Sorry Matt, no sale.

Maybe someone can explain to me this situation ... why is a convicted sexual predator like Fr. Adam Metropolous is still a priest? At least as far as I can tell, there has been no Internet hew and cry about excommunicating or defrocking him or whatever, nor has there been a press release announcing his excommunication posted at the church site or the archdiocese site.

There’s no comparison, and it’s disingenuous to inject this into the conversation.  Now you’ve got people on here actually debating the merits of racism vs. pedophilia when that’s absolutely not the point.

I think it’s a forgone conclusion that Fr. Adam will be defrocked.  If you want to start and internet hue and cry about it, by all means, feel free, but don’t act as if those who were up in arms about Heimbach weren’t justified to do so.  I’m sure there would have been an internet hue and cry if Fr. Adam had – like Heimbach – tried to use the Church to legitimize his sickness and publically distorted Orthodox theology and history to make it out as if the Church supported what he was doing.  Then, a public clarification that Orthodoxy unequivocally rejected such – as it totally and unequivocally rejects Heimbach’s heterodox teaching – would be necessary.

On the other hand, Heimbach committed no crime. Just guilty of having some inconvenient political views. That's all it took to publicly run him out of the Church.

Wrong.  Heimbach  publically assigned his “inconvenient political views” – that is to say the heresy of ecclesiastical segregation – to the Orthodox Church.  That’s all it took to have the Church publically renounce that spiritual sickness in order to clarify its own views and publically call Matthew to repentance and reconciliation.

So why does Heimbach get an instant and public retribution by the Church and Fr. Adam gets brushed under the rug?

Is it just that the Antiochians hate racism a lot more than the Greeks hate pederasts? 

Heimbach merited an instant public retribution by the Church because he made a public declaration that the Church subscribed to and endorsed his sickness.  Injecting the Fr. Adam situation into the equation in no way invalidates this.

I'd take 1,000 Heimbachs before I took one Fr. Adam. I guess that makes me crazy.

It’s not a real choice that the Church has to make.  The Church doesn’t have to accept 1000 segregationist heretics in order to eject one pedophile.  It’s intellectually dishonest to assert otherwise.  Thank God the Church publically denounced Heimbach’s views and made it clear that there can never be room for such in Orthodoxy.

I didn't say that. Obviously.  What I said is Fr. Adam's pederasty is much worse than Heimbach's politics. But the Interwebs treated Heimbach much worse than they did Fr. Adam.

Perhaps because Heimbach used the internet as a platform to espouse his sickness and lie about the Church endorsing it.  You can be sure that if Fr. Adam had done the same, there would have been even more of an outcry.

Truth be told, the Internet treated Heimbach the same way Fr. Adam treats his parishioners.

To compare the innocent victims of pedophilia to a public figure who brought public scorn on himself like Heimbach is downright insulting to said victims.  You should be ashamed of yourself.

I'll never be great enough to just come up with a line like this. What's the point of living?

Indeed.

For me, this thread wasn't ever about racism, it was about the Church's reaction to an individual's political views.

It's not about the Church's reaction to an individual's political views and it never was.  Political views have nothing to do with it.  Publically declaring that the Orthodox Church subscribes to heresies it does not endorse and perverting Orthodox history and theology to support those heresies warrants a public response.  It's intellectually dishonest to pretend that Heimbach was just a guy in the pews who was singled out by his priest because of his politics and not a public figure making public statements which defamed the Church.

Fr. Adam violently touched specific people while posing as a cleric.* The lives of those people and their relationship with the Church will never be the same. Lord have mercy -- he touches the Body and Blood with those same hands!

And so for you to compare Heimbach to those poor children and some people who made public complaints about his public actions to a child molesting priest is disgusting.  I know you're prone to hyperbole, but I've lost a ton of respect for you here.  What you said - the statement William thinks is so awesome - is downright sick.  I honestly expected better from you.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Nephi

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #999 on: September 28, 2014, 01:31:04 PM »
OC.net had nothing to do with his ultimate censure. If anything, it was the seeming hoards of angry people in Orthodox Facebook groups. This thread, this entire site even, is remarkably tame in contrast to what you can find on there, especially when Heimbach had his moment of fame.

It has nothing to do with bowing to pressure from Facebook or anywhere else.  His teachings are antithetical to those of the Church.  He publically declared that the Church endorses his teachings.  This needed to be publically corrected.  Case closed.

I didn't mean bowing to pressure, but rather it was no doubt people from Facebook that brought it to his priest's attention the most.

Offline Rambam

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #1000 on: September 28, 2014, 01:58:53 PM »
I'll let you go ahead and work yourself in an tizzy over the bearded 22-year-old racist Internet also-ran. From now on, I think I'm going to save most of my faux Web outrage over the child abusers and sexual predators wearing vestments.







So whatever happened to this dude? Did he run for the hills once he realized that the EO ecclesiastical structure in America is full of nosy shills who will bow down to pressure from OC.net and bloggers his ideology stands in opposition to the teachings of Orthodox Christianity?  Or did he recant?

Fixed that for you, my Roman Catholic friend.

OC.net had nothing to do with his ultimate censure. If anything, it was the seeming hoards of angry people in Orthodox Facebook groups. This thread, this entire site even, is remarkably tame in contrast to what you can find on there, especially when Heimbach had his moment of fame.

It has nothing to do with bowing to pressure from Facebook or anywhere else.  His teachings are antithetical to those of the Church.  He publically declared that the Church endorses his teachings.  This needed to be publically corrected.  Case closed.

An interesting story and apart from the comments on "Jewish commissars" seems devoid of overtly white nationalist talking points.

And some of this kind of rhetoric:

Quote
General Wenck exemplified the virtues and values of a European man and of a Christian, we must do our best to follow in his footsteps and to be willing to give it all for Faith, family, and folk.

We all know the "dog whistle" meaning of such language to segregationists and those who otherwise revere the Nazis, however unobjectionable it might be if taken simply at face value.  I'm sure that was his intention.  "See, 'white nationalism' and segregation are not all that bad.  They can be compatible with Orthodoxy”.  Sorry Matt, no sale.

Maybe someone can explain to me this situation ... why is a convicted sexual predator like Fr. Adam Metropolous is still a priest? At least as far as I can tell, there has been no Internet hew and cry about excommunicating or defrocking him or whatever, nor has there been a press release announcing his excommunication posted at the church site or the archdiocese site.

There’s no comparison, and it’s disingenuous to inject this into the conversation.  Now you’ve got people on here actually debating the merits of racism vs. pedophilia when that’s absolutely not the point.

I think it’s a forgone conclusion that Fr. Adam will be defrocked.  If you want to start and internet hue and cry about it, by all means, feel free, but don’t act as if those who were up in arms about Heimbach weren’t justified to do so.  I’m sure there would have been an internet hue and cry if Fr. Adam had – like Heimbach – tried to use the Church to legitimize his sickness and publically distorted Orthodox theology and history to make it out as if the Church supported what he was doing.  Then, a public clarification that Orthodoxy unequivocally rejected such – as it totally and unequivocally rejects Heimbach’s heterodox teaching – would be necessary.

On the other hand, Heimbach committed no crime. Just guilty of having some inconvenient political views. That's all it took to publicly run him out of the Church.

Wrong.  Heimbach  publically assigned his “inconvenient political views” – that is to say the heresy of ecclesiastical segregation – to the Orthodox Church.  That’s all it took to have the Church publically renounce that spiritual sickness in order to clarify its own views and publically call Matthew to repentance and reconciliation.

So why does Heimbach get an instant and public retribution by the Church and Fr. Adam gets brushed under the rug?

Is it just that the Antiochians hate racism a lot more than the Greeks hate pederasts?  

Heimbach merited an instant public retribution by the Church because he made a public declaration that the Church subscribed to and endorsed his sickness.  Injecting the Fr. Adam situation into the equation in no way invalidates this.

I'd take 1,000 Heimbachs before I took one Fr. Adam. I guess that makes me crazy.

It’s not a real choice that the Church has to make.  The Church doesn’t have to accept 1000 segregationist heretics in order to eject one pedophile.  It’s intellectually dishonest to assert otherwise.  Thank God the Church publically denounced Heimbach’s views and made it clear that there can never be room for such in Orthodoxy.

I didn't say that. Obviously.  What I said is Fr. Adam's pederasty is much worse than Heimbach's politics. But the Interwebs treated Heimbach much worse than they did Fr. Adam.

Perhaps because Heimbach used the internet as a platform to espouse his sickness and lie about the Church endorsing it.  You can be sure that if Fr. Adam had done the same, there would have been even more of an outcry.

Truth be told, the Internet treated Heimbach the same way Fr. Adam treats his parishioners.

To compare the innocent victims of pedophilia to a public figure who brought public scorn on himself like Heimbach is downright insulting to said victims.  You should be ashamed of yourself.

I'll never be great enough to just come up with a line like this. What's the point of living?

Indeed.

For me, this thread wasn't ever about racism, it was about the Church's reaction to an individual's political views.

It's not about the Church's reaction to an individual's political views and it never was.  Political views have nothing to do with it.  Publically declaring that the Orthodox Church subscribes to heresies it does not endorse and perverting Orthodox history and theology to support those heresies warrants a public response.  It's intellectually dishonest to pretend that Heimbach was just a guy in the pews who was singled out by his priest because of his politics and not a public figure making public statements which defamed the Church.

Fr. Adam violently touched specific people while posing as a cleric.* The lives of those people and their relationship with the Church will never be the same. Lord have mercy -- he touches the Body and Blood with those same hands!

And so for you to compare Heimbach to those poor children and some people who made public complaints about his public actions to a child molesting priest is disgusting.  I know you're prone to hyperbole, but I've lost a ton of respect for you here.  What you said - the statement William thinks is so awesome - is downright sick.  I honestly expected better from you.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2014, 02:14:17 PM by Rambam »

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #1001 on: September 28, 2014, 03:16:53 PM »
I'll let you go ahead and work yourself in an tizzy over the bearded 22-year-old racist Internet also-ran.

A tizzy?  LOL!  Never had the time, Ramstein.  I've been happy with the way the Church has addressed the Heimbach case since the word go, so need for tizzification over here.

From now on, I think I'm going to save most of my faux Web outrage over the child abusers and sexual predators wearing vestments.

Which, again, has no bearing on the Heimbach discussion.

But no regrets about comparing Heimbach to the victims of such abuse or his web critics to pedophile priests, huh?  Okay.  At least we all know where we stand.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline William

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #1002 on: September 28, 2014, 07:17:38 PM »
The best part is, as far as I can recall, nobody was ever able to demonstrate that Heimbach's beliefs are actually heretical outside of Antiochian Americans' sensitive minds. Just unpopular.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2014, 07:29:45 PM by William »
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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #1003 on: September 28, 2014, 07:33:34 PM »
"Love one another, as I have loved you." (Jn. 13:34)

"For God so loved the world, that he gave His only Son, that whomsoever believes in Him shall not die, but have eternal life." (Jn. 3:16)

"There is now neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)


Heimbach is a white nationalist. He does not believe that all people are loved equally by God.

Therefore, he's against the teachings of the Church.

Anything else you needed?  ::)
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Offline William

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #1004 on: September 28, 2014, 07:51:38 PM »
Anything else you needed?  ::)

A chai latte would be nice.
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #1005 on: September 28, 2014, 08:29:28 PM »
The best part is, as far as I can recall, nobody was ever able to demonstrate that Heimbach's beliefs are actually heretical outside of Antiochian Americans' sensitive minds. Just unpopular.

Then you need to take some ginko biloba. Ecclesiastical racism may not be heretical to you - ROMAN CATHOLIC - but it is heretical to the Eastern Orthodox Church whether you like it or not.

http://www.incommunion.org/2004/12/11/the-heresy-of-racism/

Quote
The Heresy of Racism

Want to add a useful word to your vocabulary? The term phyletism from phili: race or tribe was coined at the Holy and Great pan-Orthodox pan-Orthodox Synod that met in Istanbul (formerly Constantinople) in 1872. The meeting was prompted by the creation of a separate bishopric by the Bulgarian community of Istanbul for parishes only open to Bulgarians. It was the first time in Church history that a separate diocese was established based on ethnic identity rather than principles of Orthodoxy and territory. Here is the Synod’s official condemnation of ecclesiastical racism, or “ethno-phyletism,” as well as its theological argumentation. It was issued on the 10th of August 1872.


We renounce, censure and condemn racism, that is racial discrimination, ethnic feuds, hatreds and dissensions within the Church of Christ, as contrary to the teaching of the Gospel and the holy canons of our blessed fathers which “support the holy Church and the entire Christian world, embellish it and lead it to divine godliness.”

A section of the report drawn up by the special commission of the pan-Orthodox Synod of Constantinople in 1872 reviewed the general principles which guided the Synod in its condemnation.

If the Orthodox Church declares this idea to be heretical, then it is heretical.  The Orthodox Church doesn't have to justify or prove the veracity of its assertion to the satisfaction of heterodox like you, or - frankly - to ostensibly Orthodox individuals who might disagree.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2014, 08:45:23 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline William

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #1006 on: September 28, 2014, 08:52:35 PM »
You're halfway there, my fellow non-Orthodox. Now you just need to demonstrate that Heimbach encouraged "racial discrimination, ethnic feuds, or hatreds and dissensions."
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #1007 on: September 28, 2014, 10:17:35 PM »
William is Roman Catholic now?  Missed that announcement.
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline biro

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #1008 on: September 28, 2014, 10:19:38 PM »
You're halfway there, my fellow non-Orthodox. Now you just need to demonstrate that Heimbach encouraged "racial discrimination, ethnic feuds, or hatreds and dissensions."

That's what white nationalism is.

Oh, and Antonious is Orthodox.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #1009 on: September 28, 2014, 10:36:18 PM »
I don't think William is a Catholic.  William's religion is time-wasting self-embarrassing anti-Christian hater.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2014, 10:37:39 PM by minasoliman »
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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #1010 on: September 28, 2014, 10:48:40 PM »
I don't think William is a Catholic.  William's religion is time-wasting self-embarrassing anti-Christian hater.

We have a winner.
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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #1011 on: September 29, 2014, 09:21:29 AM »
You're halfway there, my fellow non-Orthodox. Now you just need to demonstrate that Heimbach encouraged "racial discrimination, ethnic feuds, or hatreds and dissensions."

Actually Wilheim, I'm all the way there on all counts.

1. I'm Orthodox.
2. Heimbach called for segregated churches.  That's the very definition of phyletism.
3. I don't need to demonstrate a thing.  The Church made its ruling: excommunication.
4. Your opinion on the Church's ruling means exactly nothing.  No one has to prove a thing to you.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #1012 on: September 29, 2014, 11:06:22 AM »
Actually, nobody ever proved that Heimbach called for segregated churches. His biggest crime seems to have been using the word "white" positively. The overly active imaginations of ninnies like yourself filled in the rest.

Is there any particular reason why you're acting like a little baby about this issue now? I mean, you've already proven that you care immensely about proving your point and winning this important internet battle. Hence the 23 pages and the fact that you're replying to nearly everything, including a one-line post from me where I admire a clever analogy from Rambo.

Go ahead, prove me wrong. Prove you do not need to demonstrate anything; Don't post in this thread again. Everyone will be better off for it. I'm not sure why a heterodox Christian like yourself has been so active in defending an Orthodox archdiocese's actions, anyways.
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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #1013 on: September 29, 2014, 11:13:16 AM »
God bless!

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #1014 on: September 29, 2014, 11:23:20 AM »
William,

It seems to me this is the first time I noticed you're calling someone of the Oriental Orthodox Church "heterodox" based on his membership.  Anyone from the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, or Old Calendarist Orthodox, you are not allowed, under rules of this site, to call heterodox in the public forum.  Given that this is the first time that I am aware you are doing this, I'm going to give you a friendly warning on this.

God bless.

Mina
« Last Edit: September 29, 2014, 11:27:55 AM by minasoliman »
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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #1015 on: September 29, 2014, 11:43:51 AM »
William,

It seems to me this is the first time I noticed you're calling someone of the Oriental Orthodox Church "heterodox" based on his membership.  Anyone from the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, or Old Calendarist Orthodox, you are not allowed, under rules of this site, to call heterodox in the public forum.  Given that this is the first time that I am aware you are doing this, I'm going to give you a friendly warning on this.

God bless.

Mina


Thanks for the heads up, friendo. Can I ask you to clarify some of the rules for me? I'm a bit confused.

Is misidentifying someone's professed religion only against the rules if referring specifically to their active membership in an Oriental, Eastern or Old Calendarist church? For example, if someone called an initiated member of the Eastern Orthodox church who is not currently practicing a "Roman Catholic," and then another poster called them a "time-wasting self-embarrassing anti-Christian hater" instead of "Orthodox" or whatever they had recently identified themselves as in their profile's Faith tag, would these comments violate the rules? Or would misidentifying this poster's religion be okay because he or she is only marginally within one of the three protected groups you mentioned?
 Because you challenged my warning publicly (and it's been brought to my attention your ad hominem usage of ninny), you'll get 14 days.  The fact that you want me to explain your recent snarky behavior and anti-Christian comments (and you removed your self-description as "Orthodox" ever since you publicly told us you lost faith), you continually look for reasons to be invective, and I'm stating the obvious.

If you like to appeal this warning, do so privately.

Mina
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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #1016 on: September 29, 2014, 02:03:34 PM »
Actually, nobody ever proved that Heimbach called for segregated churches.

Actually, it was proven in the second post in this thread.  Schultz quoting Heimbach directly from his own website "Occidental Dissent":

Quote
As an Orthodox Christian I believe in the separation of races into ethnically based Church’s. That is why even in Orthodoxy there is for instance a Greek, Russian, Romanian, Serbian, etc Orthodox Church. Regional and racial identity is a fundamental principle of Christianity, must to the dismay of Leftists.

Despite the grammatical errors ("ethnically based Church's", et cetera) the meaning is clear.

So, read for comprehension...



His biggest crime seems to have been using the word "white" positively.

That's positively not the case.  See above.

The overly active imaginations of ninnies like yourself filled in the rest.

Reading is fundamental, Willie.  Or did the collective imagination of a million ninnies cause a clear and public declaration that the Orthodox Church supports "the separation of races into ethnically based Church’s" as "a fundamental principle" to materialize on Heimbach's blog?

Is there any particular reason why you're acting like a little baby about this issue now?

Acting like a baby?

1. Babies can't read.
2. Babies often live in imagination land where gummy bears chase soda pop princesses up the Big Rock Candy Mountain and crystal clear public declarations calling for segregated churches don't prove that someone is actually calling for segregated churches.
3. Babies throw fits and call names ("You're a ninnie and a big fat doo-doo head!") when they're publically and undeniably proven wrong.

Who the dirty diaper fits...

 

I mean, you've already proven that you care immensely about proving your point and winning this important internet battle.

What I've proven is that you're wrong and don't have a handle on even the most basic facts pertaining to the case.

Hence the 23 pages and the fact that you're replying to nearly everything, including a one-line post from me where I admire a clever analogy

Is that what's got you all cranky?  I think comparing a public figure who brought public criticism upon himself - a grown man - like Heimbach - with an innocent child abused by a pedophile - who did nothing to deserve something so horrible - is disgusting and insulting to the victims of childhood abuse.  I stand by that.  If you think the remark was clever or cute, I think that's disgusting too.  I have every right to say so.


from Rambo.



Go ahead, prove me wrong. Prove you do not need to demonstrate anything; Don't post in this thread again. Everyone will be better off for it.

Translation for the Friendo impaired: "I'm losing the argument because I don't have a handle on the basic facts and I'm making a public fool of myself.  Please don't reply again and force me to compound my shame".

I'm not sure why a heterodox Christian like yourself has been so active in defending an Orthodox archdiocese's actions, anyways.

Since you've demonstrated that you have problems reading and comprehending English, it doesn't surprise me that you can't make heads or tales of Greek, but μία φύσις τοῦ θεοῦ λόγου σεσαρκωμένη means St. Cyril and and Antonious Nikolas are Orthodox.  Unlike anyone who subscribes to the heresy of phyletism.

I'm a bit confused.

Evidently.

William:

Quote
Actually, nobody ever proved that Heimbach called for segregated churches.

Matthew Heimbach:

Quote
As an Orthodox Christian I believe in the separation of races into ethnically based Church’s. That is why even in Orthodoxy there is for instance a Greek, Russian, Romanian, Serbian, etc Orthodox Church. Regional and racial identity is a fundamental principle of Christianity, must to the dismay of Leftists.

Is misidentifying someone's professed religion only against the rules if referring specifically to their active membership in an Oriental, Eastern or Old Calendarist church? For example, if someone called an initiated member of the Eastern Orthodox church who is not currently practicing a "Roman Catholic," and then another poster called them a "time-wasting self-embarrassing anti-Christian hater" instead of "Orthodox" or whatever they had recently identified themselves as in their profile's Faith tag, would these comments violate the rules?

William, I barely take notice of anything at all you write on these boards, and the last time I did you were identifying as a Roman Catholic.  If that has changed in the interim, I'd have no way of knowing that since it didn't say so in your faith tag at all.  If you did indeed become an Orthodox Christian, it appears it must've been fairly recently, and in truth, if you support Heimbach's position and his endorsement of phyletism in any way, you haven't yet allowed Orthodoxy to fully permeate your soul.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline William

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #1017 on: September 29, 2014, 02:25:29 PM »
An ethnically-based church is not a segregated church. Your parish has an "ethnic" title; "Coptic." You have read your own presumptions into Heimbach's statement.

Anyway, thanks for replying. Victory tastes good.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2014, 02:26:03 PM by William »
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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #1018 on: September 29, 2014, 02:49:46 PM »
An ethnically-based church is not a segregated church. Your parish has an "ethnic" title; "Coptic." You have read your own presumptions into Heimbach's statement.

Anyway, thanks for replying. Victory tastes good.
Watch yourself. The more you crow now, the more crow you'll have to eat when it comes back to you. ;)
« Last Edit: September 29, 2014, 02:50:01 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline methodius

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #1019 on: September 29, 2014, 03:02:55 PM »
luvvit!


With or without feathers?
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #1020 on: September 29, 2014, 03:04:09 PM »
Again, you apparently can't read and you don't know what you're talking about.

An ethnically-based church is not a segregated church. Your parish has an "ethnic" title; "Coptic."

Which refers to our liturgical rite and language.  Heimbach was calling for something different.  Go back and watch the video of his debate with the black separatist.  Go back and read his blog.  He clearly and repeatedly says he wants whites in their own churches and blacks in their own churches.  He believes America should be divided up along racial lines and calls for the disintegration of the country into independent racially-based enclaves each with their separate racially-based ecclesiastical structures.  He says blacks should not be worshipping with whites, but rather...

Quote
I believe black Christians should be in their black Church’s, with black priests, having black kids, going to black Christian schools, etc.

He tries to used ethnically-based jurisdictions in the Orthodox Church - a canonical anomaly - to justify racially-based segregation in the United States.  It doesn't work.

You have read your own presumptions into Heimbach's statement.

No, I haven't.  It's clearly there and right in front of your face.

Quote
As an Orthodox Christian I believe in the separation of races into ethnically based Church’s. That is why even in Orthodoxy there is for instance a Greek, Russian, Romanian, Serbian, etc Orthodox Church. Regional and racial identity is a fundamental principle of Christianity, must to the dismay of Leftists.

Anyway, thanks for replying.

And thank you for consistently embarrassing yourself, all for our entertainment.

You might think you're defending Heimbach, but you're actually not, because you're misrepresenting and reinterpreting his views.

Victory tastes good.

That's just your pacifier.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline methodius

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #1021 on: September 29, 2014, 03:19:12 PM »
isn't he trying to revert to the way things were until the late '50's or early '60's?
White churches; black churches - well Protestant ones, anyway. And mostly geographically.
I recall the dislike when one reminded one's listener that "Jesus was a Jew."
Does anyone recall what the RC's did?

A nice Christian example of 'love your neighbour as yourself.' :(
kyrie eleison

Offline William

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #1022 on: September 29, 2014, 03:26:18 PM »
This Heimbach is almost as bad as those Arabs in Jerusalem who want a native hierarchy instead of Greeks.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #1023 on: September 29, 2014, 03:30:26 PM »
This Heimbach is almost as bad as those Arabs in Jerusalem who want a native hierarchy instead of Greeks.
Do you ever read what you write and think "This makes absolutely no sense and is unrelated to the topic that we are discussing"?

If you don't, perhaps it is time to start.
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Offline methodius

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #1024 on: September 29, 2014, 03:32:17 PM »
when you say 'native' do you mean Palestinian?
and whom do you mean by "Greeks?"
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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #1025 on: September 29, 2014, 03:32:51 PM »
William, are you a white nationalist?

If you are, and you think it's good, why not say it?

If not, why not admit it?

What are you afraid of?
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Offline William

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #1026 on: September 29, 2014, 03:34:30 PM »
William, are you a white nationalist?

If you are, and you think it's good, why not say it?

If not, why not admit it?

What are you afraid of?

Most types of bugs, especially big ones.
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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #1027 on: September 29, 2014, 03:35:05 PM »
William, are you a white nationalist?

If you are, and you think it's good, why not say it?

If not, why not admit it?

What are you afraid of?

What is he afraid of?  Whatever it is, there will probably be 23 pages of it.
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Offline methodius

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #1028 on: September 29, 2014, 03:42:05 PM »
well, fwiw at least 23 is a 'prime number' - divisible only by itself and 1.
There's probably some deep mystical theological significance to this;
wait - isn't that the way we make the 'Sign of the Cross'?
no that's 3 and 2, isn't it?
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #1029 on: September 29, 2014, 03:46:12 PM »
well, fwiw at least 23 is a 'prime number' - divisible only by itself and 1.
There's probably some deep mystical theological significance to this;
wait - isn't that the way we make the 'Sign of the Cross'?
no that's 3 and 2, isn't it?
That is what I've always said about William; he is full of deep mystical something-or-other.
God bless!

Offline wainscottbl

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #1030 on: September 29, 2014, 03:53:38 PM »
isn't he trying to revert to the way things were until the late '50's or early '60's?
White churches; black churches - well Protestant ones, anyway. And mostly geographically.
I recall the dislike when one reminded one's listener that "Jesus was a Jew."
Does anyone recall what the RC's did?

A nice Christian example of 'love your neighbour as yourself.' :(

This sort of bloody stupidity is found among all religions. I have not found it among Orthodox yet, but I am sure it is here. I found it in traditional Catholicism, though not universally. But I would say at least in 10%. I think it is because the West seems to be more reactionary, though. I have noticed now how out of touch with reality even some of my non "racialist"--that's what people who want equal segregation, etc. call themselves--trad Cat friends post. Again, I am sure such nonsense exists in Orthodoxy, but it's not as big. There is a waste of time on cultural issues, which while important, are not what matters in the end. And this leads to a sort of "racialism" among some. It is not good to marry other races for example the argument becomes. Nations should keep their "racial identity", an argument sometimes going far past reasonable desire to end mass immigration. And an excessive fear of Jews. Heck, I used to be that way! I was not against racial intermarriage--I was too in love with exotic women to think that--but did rant against the Jews and like Bro. Nathaniel. He has a lot of admirers among the trad RCs. In fact when I announced I was no longer listening to him because he was a "bad monk" who should shut up and go pray like he's supposed to more or less, an Eastern Catholic told me "he speaks the truth". Yeah, maybe to a degree, but it's not as simple as "the Joos". The West seems to be much more reactionary and I think some converts bring that with them. And then some people, even cradle, cultural Orthodox are  that way, too. One Orthodox vlogger gave a story of when he went to a Greek Orthodox church and they told him there is an American--i.e. Protestant--church down the road. He was baptised Orthodox and everything. And even worse he clearly had Arabic blood, so it was not like he looked like a WASP. So I am not trying to pin this on the West, but it does seem to overall be a Western sort of thing. They are very reactionary and get worked up about things that in the end are not important to Christianity because they are trying to live in their medieval Church or something. Or in the case of some their 1950s church where the blacks went one parish and the whites to another, though that is a bit wrong because there was a desire in the American Catholic Church to avoid segregation as harmful to a Catholic (i.e. universal) spirit. And since Orthodoxy is one, holy, CATHOLIC, and apostolic, to seek some segregation in some romantic view of the past is just asinine. Is this guy a convert? That could explain it. Bro Nathaniel is a convert, for example.
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Offline methodius

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #1031 on: September 29, 2014, 03:56:07 PM »
what's that you say about riding felines?
You do know the saying about tigers, anyway?
"The tricky thing is about getting off."

Oh yes, you did say you were armed.
well, just in case, I'll wish you (whatever the 2nd person of Kyrie Eleison is)
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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #1032 on: September 29, 2014, 04:00:47 PM »
I think it is because the West seems to be more reactionary, though.

This proves that you've never been anywhere else than the west.

People who are calling for laws mandating segregation are, in most cases, stupid. Segregation happens (almost) naturally. People like to be around their own; take Chinatowns and gated communities for example. And even if people would like to be around other races socio-economic issues would make integration unlikely. Affluent whites generally don't want to move to the ghetto because of bad housing, bad schools and crime. Blacks and Hispanics are often too poor to move to the white suburbs and gated communities.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2014, 04:04:23 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline William

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #1033 on: September 29, 2014, 04:05:16 PM »
This Heimbach is almost as bad as those Arabs in Jerusalem who want a native hierarchy instead of Greeks.

My mistake, it seems that Maimonides has already used this as well as many other examples to solidly refute those who would call for Heimbach's censure.

It seems I can't add anymore to what he's already proven. Oh well, getting AN to charge like a bull despite his purported "nothing to prove" was amusing.

William out.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #1034 on: September 29, 2014, 04:18:27 PM »
AN is not ethnically a Copt, but an active member of the Coptic Church.  I have not heard anyone in the Church teach that Copts should only pray with Copts, Greeks with Greeks, Antiochians with Antiochians, Blacks with Blacks, and whites with whites.  Hence the condemnation of Heimbach, and rightfully so.

We have non-Coptic priests in our church as well, who in using the Coptic rites are expressing the Orthodox faith.  The canonical problems in the U.S. are problems but in no way endorses a segregatory form of prayer among racial lines.  The fact that you use that as an argument lacks any sense whatsoever.
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