Author Topic: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?  (Read 229712 times)

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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #630 on: May 17, 2014, 08:19:43 PM »
I love white people.  God was having a great day when he made white people.  It was only because of his faithfulness to King David that he sent his Son as a non-white.  Otherwise you know he wanted to be white.  Who doesn't?  White people are awesome.  I love white people.  Everyone else should love white people too.  

FALSE.  EVERYONE NOES THAT KING DAVID WAS NORSE. OTHERWISE, HOW WOULD JESUS LOOK LIKE THIS?



No one here on this forum or anywhere else KNOWS (not noes) exactly what Christ's physical features were.


The Roman Empire  was very a diverse entity at that point, yes there were parts that were more homogenous than others like Germania and some  of  the other isolated provinces, but Palestine was a crossroads for a variety of races and ethnicites, the Jews themselves had intermingled many times with the Gentiles throughout the centuries at that point, so no one can say for sure if some had a "Nordic" look or not. Remember, if you know your biblical history, Abraham the father of the Jews was not even from the Holy Land, he was an Iraqi or from that part of SW Asia in which many waves of them tribes migrated west past the Steppes into the heartland of Europe and perhaps northward from there, we're talking thousands of years ago, so who knows?

But one thing for sure, you can't with certainty  eliminate the possiblity that Jesus had lighter and fairer features, the bible even mentions in the O.T. about David having what we would consider "white" features and I have heard even from some ancient Hebrew commentaries about Moses striking physical features with piercing blue eyes and lighter hair.I think some of the ancient Hebrews did have some "nordic" type features and some others were very dark, I have no problem with that either way. but to say none were "white" is being ignorant of history and intellectually dishonest.

The iconographic record for Christ is overwhelmingly consistent: dark brown hair, dark  brown beard, and, in the main, dark eyes. Your attempt to "aryanize" Christ is sickening.  >:(
I'm not trying to "aryanize" nothing, I just said no one here  knows exactly what Christ looked like. I don't care what graphics your icons represent him as, no one knows for sure and scripture is basically silent on the matter.

I also said it doesn't really matter to me either way.

So don't get your panties in a twist. ;)
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #631 on: May 18, 2014, 03:46:08 PM »
I'm not trying to "aryanize" nothing, I just said no one here  knows exactly what Christ looked like. I don't care what graphics your icons represent him as, no one knows for sure and scripture is basically silent on the matter.

I don't think that the Orthodox iconographic tradition - which according to hagiography goes back to St. Luke, and is certainly a part of the organic heritage of the community Christ and His Apostles established - should be discarded so lightly.

I know this isn't your hang up, Charles, but it's always the guys who pathologically need Christ - in spite of all logic and common sense and the iconographic heritage of the Church -  to look like one of these guys



who turn to the "Well, no one knows for sure!" thing.

« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 04:05:19 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #632 on: May 18, 2014, 05:15:48 PM »
[ut it's always the guys who pathologically need Christ - in spite of all logic and common sense and the iconographic heritage of the Church -  to look like one of these guys

who turn to the "Well, no one knows for sure!" thing.



Who -doesn't- pathologically need Christ?????????
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #633 on: May 18, 2014, 05:44:46 PM »
Who -doesn't- pathologically need Christ?????????

Read it without the bits between the dashes (which function in this case like parentheses):

Quote
but it's always the guys who pathologically need Christ - in spite of all logic and common sense and the iconographic heritage of the Church -  to look like one of these guys who turn to the "Well, no one knows for sure!" thing.

In other words, there are some folks out there who need for Christ to look like them - or like the ideal "Nord" or "African" they've created in their minds - in order to be comfortable worshipping Him.  That's sick.  The reference here is to a pathological need to "racialize" Christ on their own terms in order to sync up with their own warped worldview instead of accepting Him as He is; not to a pathological need for Christ Himself.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #634 on: May 18, 2014, 05:52:08 PM »


I hate when they make him look like a golden haired girl with a beard.  Seriously, cover his mouth with your thumb and see if he doesn't suddenly turn into St Agnes of Rome or someone similar.
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #635 on: May 18, 2014, 05:52:47 PM »
Who -doesn't- pathologically need Christ?????????

Read it without the bits between the dashes (which function in this case like parentheses):

Quote
but it's always the guys who pathologically need Christ - in spite of all logic and common sense and the iconographic heritage of the Church -  to look like one of these guys who turn to the "Well, no one knows for sure!" thing.

In other words, there are some folks out there who need for Christ to look like them - or like the ideal "Nord" or "African" they've created in their minds - in order to be comfortable worshipping Him.  That's sick.  The reference here is to a pathological need to "racialize" Christ on their own terms in order to sync up with their own warped worldview instead of accepting Him as He is; not to a pathological need for Christ Himself.


Write clearer then.....seriously....why confuse things by making complicated sentences ...;)
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #636 on: May 18, 2014, 05:59:14 PM »
Write clearer then.....seriously....why confuse things by making complicated sentences ...;)

I got it in one.  :P
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #637 on: May 18, 2014, 06:01:39 PM »
I hate when they make him look like a golden haired girl with a beard.  Seriously, cover his mouth with your thumb and see if he doesn't suddenly turn into St Agnes of Rome or someone similar.

Yeesh!  That was creepy!  Like one of those Victorian topsy-turvy drawings.  But you're right!

Write clearer then.....seriously....why confuse things by making complicated sentences ...;)

Complicated for whom?  Mor got it in one!  ;)
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #638 on: May 18, 2014, 06:04:13 PM »
Maybe what he needs is more. @unusual@ symbols or,,,,,overuse,,,,,of them, along with some smiley confusion :):::) ):(:):)::))

 :P

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #639 on: May 18, 2014, 06:06:34 PM »
I hate when they make him look like a golden haired girl with a beard.  Seriously, cover his mouth with your thumb and see if he doesn't suddenly turn into St Agnes of Rome or someone similar.

Yeesh!  That was creepy!  Like one of those Victorian topsy-turvy drawings.  But you're right!

Write clearer then.....seriously....why confuse things by making complicated sentences ...;)

Complicated for whom?  Mor got it in one!  ;)

oh for pete's sake...

1. Mor is smarter than the average OC.netter....by a LOT, so using him as the yardstick of things..
2. Mor is not the only person reading.
3. There was a winking face.....which translates to 'joking'


All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #640 on: May 18, 2014, 06:15:25 PM »
2. Mor is not the only person reading.

This is becoming more and more doubtful day by day, wouldn't you say?  ;)
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #641 on: May 18, 2014, 06:48:39 PM »
Maybe what he needs is more. @unusual@ symbols or,,,,,overuse,,,,,of them, along with some smiley confusion :):::) ):(:):)::))

 :P


LOL!

oh for pete's sake...

A classic!

1. Mor is smarter than the average OC.netter....

We've all seen the t-shirts.



2. Mor is not the only person reading.

But I'd be surprised if he was the only one who got it.

3. There was a winking face.....which translates to 'joking'

As was there in my response!  It's all good, DeniseDenise!  ;D

(Another classic!)
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline LBK

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #642 on: May 18, 2014, 07:27:36 PM »


I hate when they make him look like a golden haired girl with a beard.  Seriously, cover his mouth with your thumb and see if he doesn't suddenly turn into St Agnes of Rome or someone similar.

SECONDED!!  :-*
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 07:38:30 PM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #643 on: May 18, 2014, 07:31:54 PM »
^
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #644 on: May 18, 2014, 08:35:35 PM »


I hate when they make him look like a golden haired girl with a beard.  Seriously, cover his mouth with your thumb and see if he doesn't suddenly turn into St Agnes of Rome or someone similar.
Yea, I agree..........that is one gay looking "aryan". ;D
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #645 on: May 18, 2014, 08:43:43 PM »
Quote
Mor is smarter than the average OC.netter....
Please don't inflate his ego any more than it already is.

And btw, I disagree. There are two kinds of smart in this world, I'll concede he's probably one helluva bookworm.

Quote
by a LOT,
Now you're just talking crazy.
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #646 on: May 18, 2014, 09:52:57 PM »
Quote
Mor is smarter than the average OC.netter....
Please don't inflate his ego any more than it already is.

And btw, I disagree. There are two kinds of smart in this world, I'll concede he's probably one helluva bookworm.

Quote
by a LOT,
Now you're just talking crazy.

If I've earned such a stinging rebuke from you, I'm probably better than even I thought.  :P
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline Nephi

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #647 on: May 18, 2014, 11:12:42 PM »


I hate when they make him look like a golden haired girl with a beard.  Seriously, cover his mouth with your thumb and see if he doesn't suddenly turn into St Agnes of Rome or someone similar.

Yeah, that's an issue I've always had with this sort of art. Instead of depicting men as masculine or something, it's just like they took a lady and added a beard. If they don't even bother adding the beard it creates all sorts of confusion, like the person to Christ's right in Da Vinci's Last Supper.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 11:13:02 PM by Nephi »

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #648 on: May 19, 2014, 08:17:26 AM »
Quote
Mor is smarter than the average OC.netter....
Please don't inflate his ego any more than it already is.

And btw, I disagree. There are two kinds of smart in this world, I'll concede he's probably one helluva bookworm.

Quote
by a LOT,
Now you're just talking crazy.

If I've earned such a stinging rebuke from you, I'm probably better than even I thought.   :P
Pride goeth before the fall.... ;)
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #649 on: May 19, 2014, 11:13:06 AM »
Quote
Mor is smarter than the average OC.netter....
Please don't inflate his ego any more than it already is.

And btw, I disagree. There are two kinds of smart in this world, I'll concede he's probably one helluva bookworm.

Quote
by a LOT,
Now you're just talking crazy.

If I've earned such a stinging rebuke from you, I'm probably better than even I thought.   :P
Pride goeth before the fall.... ;)

Reading Jewish literature, Charles?  I'm impressed! 
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #650 on: May 19, 2014, 12:30:15 PM »
Quote
Mor is smarter than the average OC.netter....
Please don't inflate his ego any more than it already is.

And btw, I disagree. There are two kinds of smart in this world, I'll concede he's probably one helluva bookworm.

Quote
by a LOT,
Now you're just talking crazy.

If I've earned such a stinging rebuke from you, I'm probably better than even I thought.   :P
Pride goeth before the fall.... ;)

Reading Jewish literature, Charles?  I'm impressed! 
BURN

 :laugh:
God bless!

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #651 on: May 19, 2014, 05:01:19 PM »
New postings from their website:

Quote
A popular misconception is that the project is a specifically pro-White and Orthodox Christian project. This is understandable, given the prominence of our White Advocates and Orthodox Christians. It’s not the case, though. We proudly support and are supported by Protestant kinists, Islamic Traditionalists, some folk religionists...
http://www.tradyouth.org/
OK, so "Trad Youth" does not refer specifically to Christian traditions? I guess that is a bit reassuring.


Quote
The worst option is to pretend like our lived experiences never happened, and that is exactly what the Antiochian Orthodox Church has asked Heimbach and Parrott to do.  Our raced experiences shape us, mould us, and guide us in everything that we do, and our political and religious activism is no exception.
How thoughtful... except Christianity says the opposite, that there is no longer Jew nor greek, but all are one in Jesus Christ. We are supposed to put our racial separations behind us in our spiritual lives.

« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 05:02:13 PM by rakovsky »
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #652 on: May 19, 2014, 05:22:32 PM »
Quote
Mor is smarter than the average OC.netter....
Please don't inflate his ego any more than it already is.

And btw, I disagree. There are two kinds of smart in this world, I'll concede he's probably one helluva bookworm.

Quote
by a LOT,
Now you're just talking crazy.

If I've earned such a stinging rebuke from you, I'm probably better than even I thought.   :P
Pride goeth before the fall.... ;)

Reading Jewish literature, Charles?  I'm impressed! 
That quote's in the Talmud?
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Rambam

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #653 on: May 19, 2014, 05:48:29 PM »
Quote
How thoughtful... except Christianity says the opposite, that there is no longer Jew nor greek, but all are one in Jesus Christ. We are supposed to put our racial separations behind us in our spiritual lives.

Haw. Haw. Well, that'll be a "fine-how-do-you-do" for all those Greek churches that host "Greek festivals" every fall.

It's just so confusing, I'm a bit woozy. Just when can a fellow celebrate his culture in the confines of the Orthodox church, and when can't he?

Oh well. It's 4:44 p.m., Monday, May 19th, and Matthew Heimbach is still excommunicated for being no more racist than the average Orthodox church.

For shame!


[/quote]

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #654 on: May 19, 2014, 05:54:03 PM »
Orthodox churches do not have "white festivals".
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Rambam

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #655 on: May 19, 2014, 06:03:23 PM »
You be right. But they do have Greek, Lebanese, Russian, etc. festivals.

Guess you're only allowed to be a racist if your particular 'race/culture' precedes the official name of a given Orthodox church.

 

Orthodox churches do not have "white festivals".

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #656 on: May 19, 2014, 06:06:16 PM »
Just when can a fellow celebrate his culture in the confines of the Orthodox church, and when can't he?

He can celebrate his culture when he knows what it is, not just what it's not. 
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline biro

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #657 on: May 19, 2014, 06:10:19 PM »
Guess you're only allowed to be a racist if your particular 'race/culture' precedes the official name of a given Orthodox church.

Or, unless you make stupid generalizations.
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist


Warning: stories have mature content.

Offline Rambam

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #658 on: May 19, 2014, 06:12:20 PM »
What do you mean? You're also allowed to be a racist if you make "stupid generalizations" ?

I don't get it.



Guess you're only allowed to be a racist if your particular 'race/culture' precedes the official name of a given Orthodox church.

Or, unless you make stupid generalizations.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 06:16:55 PM by Rambam »

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #659 on: May 19, 2014, 06:16:27 PM »
Guess you're only allowed to be a racist if your particular 'race/culture' precedes the official name of a given Orthodox church.

Or, unless you make stupid generalizations.
You mean like this? ;)


National Association for the Advancement of Colored People

http://www.naacp.org/
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #660 on: May 19, 2014, 06:25:17 PM »
Guess you're only allowed to be a racist if your particular 'race/culture' precedes the official name of a given Orthodox church.

Or, unless you make stupid generalizations.
You mean like this? ;)


National Association for the Advancement of Colored People

http://www.naacp.org/

How long did you wait to use that one?  And how good did it feel?  :)
I think you can say ~ In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and post with charitable and prayerful intentions.

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #661 on: May 19, 2014, 06:34:26 PM »
Guess you're only allowed to be a racist if your particular 'race/culture' precedes the official name of a given Orthodox church.

Or, unless you make stupid generalizations.
You mean like this? ;)


National Association for the Advancement of Colored People

http://www.naacp.org/

How long did you wait to use that one?  And how good did it feel?  :)
Since you have no answer, you tell me?

I wonder if the EO would "excommunicate" anyone belonging to or actively engaging in the rights and advancements of "colored persons"?

somehow, I don't think so.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 06:34:52 PM by Charles Martel »
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #662 on: May 19, 2014, 06:36:07 PM »
Haw. Haw. Well, that'll be a "fine-how-do-you-do" for all those Greek churches that host "Greek festivals" every fall.

It's just so confusing, I'm a bit woozy. Just when can a fellow celebrate his culture in the confines of the Orthodox church, and when can't he?

Oh well. It's 4:44 p.m., Monday, May 19th, and Matthew Heimbach is still excommunicated for being no more racist than the average Orthodox church.

For shame!


That's a load of crap and you know it.  There's an enormous difference between the concepts of "race" and "culture".  There's also an even greater difference between a festival where the message is "Come and spend some money and experience our culture with us" or maybe, more frequently in the 21st century, "Come and learn about Orthodoxy" (as it is in my parish) on the one hand and Heimbach's message of "'Racial' segregation is the way to go" on the other.

Heimbach's anti-Christ apartheid dreams are not as benign in nature as Orthodox ethnic festivals, and to act as if they are is ridiculous.

Just when can a fellow celebrate his culture in the confines of the Orthodox church, and when can't he?

He can celebrate his culture when he knows what it is, not just what it's not.  

+10

"White" is not a culture.


National Association for the Advancement of Colored People


When the ridiculous fantasies some on these boards entertain of "white guys" being an oppressed minority become reality, perhaps then a NAAWP will become necessary and appropriate.  But I wouldn't hold my breath.


I wonder if the EO would "excommunicate" anyone belonging to or actively engaging in the rights and advancements of "colored persons"?

somehow, I don't think so.

If they advocated for "racial" segregation a la the Nation of Islam, I'm absolutely sure they would.  In fact, I know an Ethiopian Orthodox priest who told a Rasta harboring black segregationist views that he could not be baptized into the Church until he recanted such in no uncertain terms.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 06:42:19 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #663 on: May 19, 2014, 06:37:31 PM »
Guess you're only allowed to be a racist if your particular 'race/culture' precedes the official name of a given Orthodox church.

Or, unless you make stupid generalizations.
You mean like this? ;)


National Association for the Advancement of Colored People

http://www.naacp.org/

How long did you wait to use that one?  And how good did it feel?  :)
Since you have no answer, you tell me?

I wonder if the EO would "excommunicate" anyone belonging to or actively engaging in the rights and advancements of "colored persons"?

somehow, I don't think so.
What about if they went marching around town beating people with Orthodox crosses while denouncing "Whitey"?
God bless!

Offline Rambam

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #664 on: May 19, 2014, 06:49:26 PM »
Quote
Heimbach's anti-Christ apartheid dreams are not as benign in nature as Orthodox ethnic festivals, and to act as if they are is ridiculous.

No. I don't think it is. The sorts of ethnocenterism we see in Orthodoxy just perpetuate the phyletism that Metropolitan Philip criticized the Church in the West for and which he denounced (which I linked too earlier).

Heimbach is a guy with a point of view, and that's it. When people in the Church do it, they do it on behalf of Christ. When we enter an age when our churches no longer host ethnic-celebration festivals, then we'd be talking. Until then, these festivals are all just one more dance step in the hall of "we focus on racial identity," which is right next door to Heimbach's hall of cultural superiority.

The difference -- and it's a big difference -- is that God resides in the Church's hall, and not in Heimbach's.  
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 06:50:05 PM by Rambam »

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #665 on: May 19, 2014, 06:53:02 PM »
Guess you're only allowed to be a racist if your particular 'race/culture' precedes the official name of a given Orthodox church.

Or, unless you make stupid generalizations.
You mean like this? ;)


National Association for the Advancement of Colored People

http://www.naacp.org/

How long did you wait to use that one?  And how good did it feel?  :)
Since you have no answer, you tell me?

I wonder if the EO would "excommunicate" anyone belonging to or actively engaging in the rights and advancements of "colored persons"?

somehow, I don't think so.
What about if they went marching around town beating people with Orthodox crosses while denouncing "Whitey"?
Well, what about it? would they still excommunicate them still?

Maybe in their minds they were defending themselves by some white agitators.

And I think you're slanting this Heimbach thing to your own liberal agenda.

I also heard that this priest or church that Heimbach converted into is very liberal and even open to "gay" marriage.

Is this true?
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #666 on: May 19, 2014, 07:01:08 PM »
No. I don't think it is. The sorts of ethnocenterism we see in Orthodoxy just perpetuate the phyletism that Metropolitan Philip criticized the Church in the West for and which he denounced (which I linked too earlier).

There's a huge difference between exclusionary ethnocentrism and the sort of inclusive ethnic festivals you've referenced above.  If the local Mexican community has a Cinco de Mayo festival where everyone can go and experience their food and music, that's cool.  If - in accord with Heimbach's views - La Raza hijacks the thing and posts a sign at the gate saying, "No Gringos Allowed" that's radically different.

Heimbach's a segregationist.  "Racial" segregation is anti-Christian.

Heimbach is a guy with a point of view, and that's it.

A point of view alien to Orthodox Christianity.


When people in the Church do it, they do it on behalf of Christ.

Heimbach purports the same.

When we enter an age when our churches no longer host ethnic-celebration festivals, then we'd be talking.

Bull.  When the Church starts hosting exclusionary racialist events, then you'll have a point.

Until then, these festivals are all just one more dance step in the hall of "we focus on racial identity," which is right next door to Heimbach's hall of cultural superiority.

The analogy doesn't hold as there's nothing exclusionary about the festivals.

The difference -- and it's a big difference -- is that God resides in the Church's hall, and not in Heimbach's.  

Here we agree.
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #667 on: May 19, 2014, 07:01:35 PM »

Maybe in their minds they were defending themselves by some white agitators.

And I think you're slanting this Heimbach thing to your own liberal agenda.

I also heard that this priest or church that Heimbach converted into is very liberal and even open to "gay" marriage.

Is this true?
No. Father Peter Jon Gillquist is NOT liberal and does not support "gay marriage", despite what his detractors at tradyouth.org might claim.
God bless!

Offline Rambam

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #668 on: May 19, 2014, 07:14:23 PM »
Quote
Heimbach purports the same.

I'll just grab a hold of this quote then be on my way -- I've got a date with a Wendy's double in a few minutes, which I don't want to miss.

When he "purports," he's almost always quoting Orthodox saints. In fact, I haven't seen him "purport" anything about the Church's position himself -- instead, he's awfully fond of memes of Kronstadt and Nickolas II featuring racialist/nationalist quotes of theirs.

All of us look on with horror at this guy, wondering "Where on earth did he come up with this stuff?"  He didn't need to go much farther than the Church's own fathers -- there's plenty there for him to hold on to. And he's confused when the Church says "That's not what we stand for!"

I'd be confused, too. I am confused.

Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #669 on: May 19, 2014, 07:39:39 PM »
I'll just grab a hold of this quote then be on my way

That's your usual style, Ram.  ;D

When he "purports," he's almost always quoting Orthodox saints. In fact, I haven't seen him "purport" anything about the Church's position himself -- instead, he's awfully fond of memes of Kronstadt and Nickolas II featuring racialist/nationalist quotes of theirs.

All of us look on with horror at this guy, wondering "Where on earth did he come up with this stuff?"  He didn't need to go much farther than the Church's own fathers -- there's plenty there for him to hold on to. And he's confused when the Church says "That's not what we stand for!"

He promotes a worldview that's incompatible with Orthodoxy.  Orthodoxy is not segregationist.  And if he cherry-picks quotes from individual saints (who were not perfect human beings this side of the grave) he's being just as disingenuous as those who cherry-pick the quotes of other saints to promote communism or pervert the hagiography of Ss. Sergius and Bacchus to promote a homosexual agenda.

it should be OK to be a racist and be Orthodox.

I am confused.

Clearly.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 07:49:13 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline LBK

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #670 on: May 19, 2014, 07:47:32 PM »
or pervert the hagiography of Ss. Sergius and Bacchus to promote a homosexual agenda.


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Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #671 on: May 19, 2014, 08:04:48 PM »
Heimbach has tons of issues that discredit him, like perverting the design of a cross and beating someone with it. His fallback position is that he likes "white" organizations at least in the same way there are organizations for other ethnic or racial groups, like an "Asian American" club. Do people disagree with him, and if so, why?

I find the idea of "white clubs" to be arrogant. Our general founding idea is to be a country for all races. America's system of government and society was not founded as a "White Society" in the sense that England is an "English society". It's not a founding principle.

When "white" immigrants came over, their communities were most closely drawn along national lines (Italians, Germans, Greeks), rather than as part of being "white". "Whiteness" historically in America as a dividing line has been used for the purpose of supremacy, such as in the repression of the Native Americans by "white" colonists and the enslavement of Black Americans.

Groups with difficulties immigrating have been more likely to focus around ethnic communities (eg. Italian clubs) than other groups who formed a larger group(eg. German clubs). Whites have not been strongly disadvantaged as a group (Affirmative Action and illegal immigration don't count), and so there is less natural impetus to form "white rights" groups.

I have overheard enough occasional uncaring racist attitudes from white people that we do not gain anything from forming open "white clubs". Instead of talking about how black people need to stay out of our neighborhoods, why don't we spend time thinking up ways to reform and make black communities prosper?

In terms of American culture, I have a hard time thinking of what we share as white people that we don't share with black people. Mayonnaise? It seems to be deepening a division between people in ways that don't have a basis in the reality of our culture or history except for intense supremacist aspects like slavery.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 08:06:16 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #672 on: May 19, 2014, 08:07:57 PM »
When he "purports," he's almost always quoting Orthodox saints. In fact, I haven't seen him "purport" anything about the Church's position himself -- instead, he's awfully fond of memes of Kronstadt and Nickolas II featuring racialist/nationalist quotes of theirs.
The Church fathers never trumpeted "white culture."

Why?
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Rambam

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #673 on: May 19, 2014, 08:28:19 PM »
it should be OK to be a racist and be Orthodox.

I am confused.

Quote
Clearly.

Why so touchy, A.N.? I'm not getting personal with you. And quoting out of context isn't your style -- what I clearly meant is that it should be OK to be a sinner and be Orthodox. My point -- which I guess I can state 10,000 times and still everyone will ignore it -- is that Heimbach isn't any more or less sinful than any one of us. When it comes to the specific problem of 'phyletism,' he isn't any more or less guilty than the Church itself. Though you want to blow off or ignore Metropolitan Philip's words all you want (http://www.antiochian.org/node/17070).

The Heimbach affair could have been an opportunity to look inside ourselves and inside the Church and ask some really hard questions -- like what Inga Leonova suggests (http://holyresurrection.areavoices.com/tag/bloomington/)

Nah, we will just blind ourselves to the things that attracted Heimbach to the Church in the first place. It is not an accident that he picked Orthodoxy.  His preference of the Orthodox Church may be the most damning indictment of all.



« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 08:29:57 PM by Rambam »

Offline rakovsky

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Re: Matthew Heimbach - the next Brother Nathanael?
« Reply #674 on: May 19, 2014, 08:29:20 PM »
Celebrating being a member of a dominant racial group, especially when there is no unique culture (ie. a nonexistent unique "white American" culture, as opposed to Greek culture) around it feels nauseating.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 08:31:39 PM by rakovsky »
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20