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Author Topic: The holy water !  (Read 2802 times) Average Rating: 0
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Justionios
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« on: April 08, 2005, 11:14:31 AM »

 Their is alot of talk of that many orthodox churches arre not true orthodox.

I actually don't now what is true are not and hope god will show me the way to him.

 I have heard that the true orthodox preasts can with only their hand make holy water,

The semi-orthodox need a cross.

The latins uses salt, (YES! It's true I have called to one of their churches and they said it to me)

Any way , I have heared that true orthodox are blessed so theis hand's are blessed as crosses, but the orthodoxes that are orthodox but not good orthodox don't have the blessing and therfore they need a cross to do the job.

What have you heread about it ? What is true and what id false ? Is it possible to test a priest with the holly water method ?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2005, 11:17:45 AM by Justionios » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2005, 03:52:31 PM »

The Orthodox priest needs a cross to make Holy Water. Which Churches have you heard of that they are not Orthodox?
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« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2005, 04:55:17 PM »

Hello Justionios (or is it nikos),

I have to say that I am socked by your post. I believe that you may be new to the faith so you are eager to understand everything at once.

You are asking whether the material cross has some magical power that can be used by someone to practice blessing over the water in order to transform it to Holy Water ?

My brother watch out these teachings. They claim that the Priest as a person is using a material tool to bless Holy Water, regardless if this tools is a cross or his hand. Cross is not a tool having mysterious powers by Itself . Only by the reference to a person that presents his christian faith through the Cross can the power of Cross be manifested. And this power originates from the use of Cross by Christ so that death be defeated. In Orthodox Church there is an Eastertide hymn that says "Christ has risen from the land of death, having stepped over death by death itself". This is the real power of Cross.

You have suggested that a phoney priest may use a Cross to make Holy Water. This is not true. It can not be done by using tools.

The water is transformed into Holy Water by the Holy Ghost. Priests just pray to the Holy Gost along with the congregation for the comming of the Holy Ghost in the scene at the specific time and place in order for them to be blessed by Him. The water is transformed (not "made") into Holy Water in order for the bodies of the faithfulls to receive blessing along with their souls forasmuch as man is whole only if he is apprehended as being that has body and soul undivided.

A Orthodox priest says: "This water is blessed by the Holy Ghost", "You are married as man and wife (by His Spirit)", "this thing/person is blessed by the Holy Ghost". Everything in Orthodox Church is blessed, sanctified,consecrated, hold sacred by His Grace and Holiness and Sanctity: the Holy Ghost. The priest is a member of the congregation and in behalf of them and with them asks for His Presence to be among them. Everything is actually and literally performed in the Church by Holy Ghost. (Catholic priests are saying: "I bless this water", "I marry you man and wife", "I bless this thing/person" falsy professing that they as humans in the power of being the successors of Christ are sending the Holy Ghost according to their own blessed wishes)

Finaly, you are asking for a proof that will winnow a real priest from a pseud-priest. There is only one test: a true priest is providing the peace that has in his heart to others, to everybody not just to christians. So a true priest is giving peace to your own heart too. You shall feel it inside you. Please my brother do not search for outwardly signs because what you are looking for can only be found inside yourself.

"The Reign of God" is inside you. The truth rests there.

Lord Christ said : Matthew 23
1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples,
2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses;
3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.
4 They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.
5 But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments.
6 They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men.
8 But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
10 Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.
11 But the greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted".

« Last Edit: April 08, 2005, 05:33:22 PM by lpap » Logged

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Justionios
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« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2005, 03:28:17 AM »

It's always so confiusing when comming to religion,
Ipap is saying that priest do not use cross, but Dino is saying that the use,
I think that that protestants give similars answers as Ipap, and they have theoretical right on some things as to that the cross doesn't do the job but it is the holy spitit, meanwhiles I have called to their churches and their holy water has the same properties as drinking water.

But than again Dino say that all orthodox priest use the cross, The intresting is that with this cross in combination with some specific retuals the water gets advanced propertis and becames holy water.

But I now that Dino is wrong because there is orthodox priest that can use their hand , it is enough to turn their hand in the trinity-sign. So all orthodox priests doesn't use a cross.

The question remigns whay can some orthodox priest use their hand to make  make holy water ?
Are the tricking and we should be afraid of them or are they the true orthodox as many of their followers proclaim ??
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« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2005, 06:39:58 AM »

Justionios,
What you have heard about Orthodox priests blessing Holy Water without the Cross is false.
An Orthodox priest does not have a "choice" about whether he will use the Cross or not to sanctify Holy Water.
There are two rites for sanctifying Holy Water in the "Euchologion"- the service book used by priests . The two rites are: "The Greater Sanctification of Water" (which takes place on the Feast of Theophany) and the "Lesser Sanctification of Water". Both rites require the priest performing them to immerse (literally 'baptise") the Cross in the water three times.
It is the Roman Catholic rite for blessing holy water which does not require the a Cross to be immersed in the water.
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Justionios
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« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2005, 06:50:32 AM »

RE : Ozgeorge Can you please tell me more about it  ? Because I actually now priest's that can bless water with only their hand, The water gets the same propertys as Holy water. Can you please tell me where I can find out more about it , so I can compare and maybe get a more clear picture of it.
Of course I think that some of the priest uses a cross but they can use their hand, it would be the same result if they don't have lose their blessednes.

In Christ ,
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« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2005, 07:46:14 AM »

Justionos,
The "Euchologion" is the liturgical book that contains the services and prayers used for all the sacraments and other rituals (except Holy Orders and the Holy Eucharist). It is also called the "Book of Needs" or "Sacramentarion" and it is one of the most essential liturgical books in the Church. When Orthodoxy came to Russia, it was translated into Slavonic where it was known as the "Trebnyk". The first known translations into Slavonic were made in the 9th century. The complete edition of the Euchologion includes the ritual for the blessing of a church, its furnishings, and appointments; the Greater and Lesser Sanctifications of Water, the ritual for the blessing of holy objects; and blessings and prayers for specific needs. The shorter version contains the rituals for the administering of sacraments (baptism, marriage, anointing with oil, penance), the offices for the dead, and certain blessings used during the year.
It is this book, the Euchologion (or Trebnyk) which contains the rituals an Orthodox Priest must use to perform the rituals of the Church. He cannot simply "make it up as he goes along."
I notice you said that the priest can simply "turn his hand in the trinity sign"...do you mean in the same way that we cross ourselves with the three fingers? It is customary only for laymen to make the sign of the cross like this over people and objects. My mother (who has fallen asleep in the Lord) would make the sign of the cross with her hand like this over the loaf of prosforo she made before putting it in the oven, and this is also how our parents, grandparents and Godparents would give us their blessing. Some Orthodox make the sin of the Cross over their food and drink before eating and drinking (in our Greek tradition, the father or mother only makes the sign of the Cross over the bread with the knife before cutting it). An Orthodox priest only hold his hand like this when making the sign of the cross over himself, when blessing other people and objects, he holds the fingers of his hand in the form of the Greek letters "IC XC" ("Jesus Christ").
There is no reason why a priest can't simply make the sign of the cross over water- but this does not make it "Holy Water" as the Church knows it. In the Same way, the priest cannot simply cause bread and wine to change into the Body and Blood of Christ by making the sign of the Cross over it, or marry a man and a woman by making the sign of the Cross over them.
The properties of Holy Water are invisible, I don't see how you can know that the water a priest blesses by hand has the same properties as Holy Water.
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« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2005, 08:28:38 AM »

Justionios,

You have missed the point.

I did not said that the priest does not use a cross. I have said that the there is a substance and there is a form. Unfortunately you are being trapped by the form.

The Holy Water is not a magical water. What makes it Holy is the faith of people to God (And because human have flesh and bodies nature/material things are being blessed for the benefit of material man).

You keep asking about material super power in Holy Cross. There is not such a thing. On the Cross there is a Man that is God. That is the point you are missing. That is why the Cross is powerful; it carries the human body of Christ.

Some priests are blessing the water by pointing and "drawing" and imaginable Cross with their hands. There is no difference between doing a blessing with this immaterial cross and in doing a blessing using a material cross. Also in either ways the priest is using his hands.

ozgeorge has absolutely right in his post. Let me add that the form of rite does not produce the outcome. Having said that, let me also persist that an Orthodox priest will follow the form to the smallest detail because by that he is following a blessed tradition, he has no other option.

Brother Justionios let me attract your attention to a fact that may help you understand the difference of form and substance.

In some places in eastern Europe there are Roman Catholic churches that look exactly the same as the orthodox churches in the way that their priests are dressed and in the ways that they perform the rites and in the ways their icons and buildings are looking. And I mean exactly to the smallest detail. They perform the blessing of the holly water exactly in the same way that Orthodox Church does, although they are subjects to Vatican authority and they preach Roman Catholic christianity. In this case there is no way that you can tell apart who the orthodox priest is and who the catholic priest is just by looking the form of their doings. (This is exactly what the Vatican is aiming at by disguising it's churches so that it can deceive orthodox Christians). You can tell the difference between the true Orthodox Church priest and the fake "orthodox" Roman Catholic Church priest by examining the substance of their faith.

So the answer to your quest is that the true orthodox priest is the one that stands for the true Orthodox faith regardless of any other external attributes.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2005, 08:33:16 AM by lpap » Logged

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Justionios
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« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2005, 04:13:07 PM »

Thank you for your replay's I hopy god will bless you so you can help even more people in their inquiris,

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« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2005, 08:06:12 AM »


But than again Dino say that all orthodox priest use the cross, The intresting is that with this cross in combination with some specific retuals the water gets advanced propertis and becames holy water.

But I now that Dino is wrong because there is orthodox priest that can use their hand , it is enough to turn their hand in the trinity-sign. So all orthodox priests doesn't use a cross.


I was referring to the fact that the priests immerse the Cross in the waters in the day of Theophania, when all the waters are blessed.

We must take into consideration that there are springs in monasteries that are blessed to 'produce' holy water instead of just water, without having a priest to bless the waters every day.
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« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2005, 11:13:01 AM »

>"We must take into consideration that there are springs in monasteries that are blessed to 'produce' holy water instead of just water, without having a priest to bless the waters every day."

Brother Ntinos,

I thing that you are mistaken. There are no fountains of Holy Water. What you are reffering to are fountains or wells that their water is called "agiasma" from Greek Fathers. The Holy Water is call "agiasmos" from Greek Fathers. There is a huge difference bettwen the two.

The "agiasma" is water that springs from a spot that a miracle has taken place in the past. So the "agiasma" is a sign for this miracle. It is not Holy Water. The "agiasma" water is though regard with reverence.

Holy Water or "agiasmos" absolutely needs to be blessed from a priest.

And something else: in Theophania-day not only water but the whole nature is blessed. Of course in the Church the priest is blessing the Holy Water and he sprays everyone and everybody with It so that the blessing to be manifested in a bodily way.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2005, 11:18:01 AM by lpap » Logged

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