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Author Topic: Union now!  (Read 6348 times) Average Rating: 0
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Ntinos
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« on: April 08, 2005, 10:45:21 AM »

Has anyone been watching Pope John Paul's funeral today? Very atmospheric scene, with all the leaders of every nation present, even long time opponents. But there was something different in this funeral: This is the first time Orthodox representantives visit a Pope's funeral ever since the schizm. Not only that, but it was not just a bishop or two: it was almost all Patriarchs & Archbishops of autocephalous Orthodox Churches (except for Patriarch Alexy, but that's another case, since he sent a representative).
Not to mention everybody was mentioning the Pope's attempts to bring the two Churches closer...

So what is going on? Are we headed soon for a Church merge with the Roman Catholics? Or was it just for the typicals?
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« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2005, 11:07:57 AM »

Has anyone been watching Pope John Paul's funeral today? Very atmospheric scene, with all the leaders of every nation present, even long time opponents. But there was something different in this funeral: This is the first time Orthodox representantives visit a Pope's funeral ever since the schizm. Not only that, but it was not just a bishop or two: it was almost all Patriarchs & Archbishops of autocephalous Orthodox Churches (except for Patriarch Alexy, but that's another case, since he sent a representative).
Not to mention everybody was mentioning the Pope's attempts to bring the two Churches closer...

So what is going on? Are we headed soon for a Church merge with the Roman Catholics? Or was it just for the typicals?

Let's not get ahead of ourselves now.  Baby steps...baby steps...(especially with EO-RC relations).  If we think Orthodox time moves slowly, this is something that should move even slower.  Proceed with EXTREME caution.
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« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2005, 11:37:02 AM »

Let's not get ahead of ourselves now. Baby steps...baby steps...(especially with EO-RC relations). If we think Orthodox time moves slowly, this is something that should move even slower. Proceed with EXTREME caution.

EXACTLY...but not only with Orthodox-Latin relations, with all changes in all spheres of Church Life...(this has been one of my main points in many issues we've discussed)
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« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2005, 12:01:53 PM »



EXACTLY...but not only with Orthodox-Latin relations, with all changes in all spheres of Church Life...(this has been one of my main points in many issues we've discussed)

Well, in this case (within our own household), we already were relatively united and then an accident in history caused a train wreck.  Unfortunately, instead of putting the train back on the tracks, self political posturing has gotten in the way and we have taken many steps backwards more than necessary.  But where we disagree is putting the train back on the tracks.
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« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2005, 12:05:09 PM »

We as Orthodox need to be concerned about unity with ourselves.  That is what we should be concentrating on.
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« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2005, 12:07:15 PM »

We as Orthodox need to be concerned about unity with ourselves. That is what we should be concentrating on.

Exactly!  But not according to some here.
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« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2005, 01:44:55 PM »

The only way for "union" with the RCs is through an ecumenical council and I can't see that happening with Orthodoxy remaining intact.  That's been tried before.  Rome did what Rome does best.

Rome can come back to Orthodoxy and the Seven Councils and renounce its claims of absolute jursdiction or they can stay in schism.  That's all there is to it.  It's their choice.
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« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2005, 01:54:49 PM »

Amin.

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« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2005, 02:00:42 PM »

I remember a good old elder in Agion Oros mentioning that the Churches will be united, but this will be after the bad shepherds are away.
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« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2005, 04:11:29 AM »

Not all churches where there , they true orthodox where not there and they will never go their,
They don't belive in corporation with antichrist !!

Please can someone read the 45 and 65 apostolic canon and you will understand why no true orthodox can go the Popes funeral
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« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2005, 09:05:55 AM »

Not all churches where there , they true orthodox where not there and they will never go their,
They don't belive in corporation with antichrist !!

Please can someone read the 45 and 65 apostolic canon and you will understand why no true orthodox can go the Popes funeral

Quote from: The Rudder
45. Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon that merely joins in prayer with heretics be suspended, but if he has permitted them to perform any service as Clergymen, let him be deposed (sc.from of-fice).

Interpretation.
The present Canon prescribes that any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon that shall only join in prayer, and not co-officiate in divine services, with any heretics is to be suspended, or temporarily deprived of the right to celebrate the sacraments (called “mysteries” in the Orthodox Church). For anyone that prays in company with excommunicants (as heretics are) must himself be excommunicated along with them, according to the tenth Canon of the same Apostles. But if he went so far as to allow those heretics to perform any service in church as Clergymen, he is to be deposed from office altogether. For any Clergyman that officiates at services in company with others who have been deposed (as have heretics, according to the second and fourth Canons of the Third Ecumenical Council) is him-self ipso facto deposed along with them, according to the eleventh Canon of the Apostles. It be-hooves us to hate and shun heretics, but never to join them in prayer or to allow them to perform any ecclesiastical function, either as Clergymen or as Priests.

Concord.
Apostolical Canon LXV says that if anyone enters a congregation of heretics in order to pray, in case he is a Clergyman he is to be deposed, but in case he is a Layman he is to be suspended. The Synod of Laodicea in its sixth Canon forbids heretics from entering the church; and in its thirty-second it says: “One must not accept blessings from heretics, which are flummeries, and not bless-ings.” Neither must one pray in conjunction with heretics or schismatics, according to its thirty-third Canon. Its thirty-fourth Canon anathematizes those who leave the martyrs of Christ out of considera-tion and go to the pseudomartyrs of heretics. The ninth Canon of Timothy forbids heretics to be pre-sent at the time of divine services, unless they promise to repent and to abandon the heresy. More-¼over, the ninth Canon of the Synod of Laodicea excommunicates Christians that go to the cemeteries or martyriums of heretics in order to pray or for the sake of healing their sick. But neither ought any Christian to celebrate any feast together with heretics, nor to accept any gifts they may send him on their holidays, according to the thirty-seventh Canon of the same Synod of Laodicea.

and........

Quote from: The Rudder
65. If any Clergyman, or Layman, enter a synagogue of Jews, or of heretics, to pray, let him be both deposed and excommunicated.
   (Ap. cc. VII, XLV, LXXI; c. XI of the Oth; c. I of Antioch; cc. VI, XXXII, XXXIII, XXXVII, XXXVIII of Laodicea.).

Interpretation.
The present Canon reckons it a great sin for a Christian to enter a synagogue of Jews or of heretics in order to pray. “For what portion hath a believer with an infidel?” (II Cor. 6:15), according to the divine Apostle. For if the Jews themselves are violating the Law by going into their synagogues and offering sacrifices, in view of the fact that the offering of sacrifices anywhere outside of Jerusalem is forbidden, according to the Law (as is attested by divine St. Justin in his dialogue with Tryphon, and by Sozomenus in his Ecclesiastical History, Book 5, ch. 21, and by St. Chrysostom in his second discourse against the Jews), how much more is not that Christian violating the law who prays along with the crucifiers of Christ? Moreover, it is also to be emphasized that any church of heretics, or any religious meeting of theirs, ought not to be honored or attended, but rather ought to be despised and rejected, on the ground that they believe things contrary to the beliefs of Orthodox Christians. Hence it is that the present Canon ordains that if any clergyman or layman enters the synagogue of the Jews or that of heretics for the sake of prayer, the clergyman shall be deposed from office and at the same time be excom-¼municated on the ground that he has committed a great sin, but as for the layman he is to be excommunicated only, since, inasmuch as he is a lay-¼man, he has sinned to a less degree than has the clergyman, in so doing, and because as a layman he is not liable to deposition and cannot therefore be deposed. Or, to speak more correctly, as others interpret the matter, the cler-gyman that enters a synagogue of Jews or heretics to pray shall be deposed from office, while any layman that does the same thing shall be excommunicated. Read also the interpretation of Ap. c. VII and that of Ap. c. XLV.

Who says they were there to pray?  They went to the funeral of the Patriarch of Rome to represent Orthodoxy, but it doesnt mean they went there to pray.  And a layman condemning a bishop to excommunication is funny, at best - I hope that is not what you are doing (I don't want to read too much into the intent of your post).
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« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2005, 09:59:18 AM »

Union is NOT about the unification of people in one place at a specific time doing the same thing alltogether.

Union IS the ONE Christ being offered in One Eucharist.

Does the Vatican receive communion from the same cup along with Orthodoxy ?

I think not.
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« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2005, 10:17:31 AM »

antichrist? 

Wow, Ian Paisley would be proud.
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« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2005, 04:26:22 PM »

RE Cleavland !

 You reed the apostolical law by your self,  It sais clearly not even pray toghether !!

But Patriarch bartholemew does pray very often with eritics , if you follow some of Barthelomews liturgys you will se latins , monofysits in his liturgy praying togheter.

The same with Archibishop Christodoulos of Athens , he brought the Pope to Greece, where the praid togehter, IN Rome the even hade krypyyo-liturgy , that means that as an orthodox I can't follow them though they are excumunicated by the apostolic law.
I would actually love to follow, but it is not possible.
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« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2005, 06:09:40 PM »

Yahoooo! Justionios you have reached your verdict !!!

Yoy are right that the apostolic law says under which specific conditions someone should be excumunicated but this is not a personal decision.

There must be made a decision from a synod. Or else there is no difference from protestand groups that each one has its own verdict for everyone else.

Be ware of incompetent judgements.
 
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« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2005, 06:34:19 PM »

And a layman condemning a bishop to excommunication is funny, at best - I hope that is not what you are doing (I don't want to read too much into the intent of your post).

It's not that outrageous.  I know it is a little different, but the point is the same.  Read the story of the reaction of the Faithful to their hierarchs upon returning from the Council of Trent.  They were certainly rebuked, humbled and it made them to repent.
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« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2005, 07:26:05 PM »

lpap, I agree with you.  Determining who is to be excommunicated or a heretic is the job of the Church--it is not an individual's place to do this.  Applying the canons is not the job of a layperson either--those are for the priests and bishops.  Personally, I think most laypeople would be better off staying away from them.  Unfortunately, the people that often seem to get so into them start thinking they know better than priests and bishops how things should be handled.  If you want to do that, the Orthodox Church probably isn't the best place to be in since we are supposed to be obedient to the priests and bishops--we are not the final authority.
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« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2005, 06:19:52 AM »

So Please tell me what is my choice ? Can I choose to not follow the law and still be on the right path ?
I wan't to save my soul not my face ! Apostel Pavlos who was full of love said that we are not even alloud to say Hi to the false teacher, Please tell does someone of us have more love than apostel Pavlos ??

Jesus said the hunted me and the they will hunt you. ( +Ñ+£+ù+¥ +ò+ö+Ö+ƒ+P+æ+¥ +ò+Ö+£+æ+ú +ò+Ö+ö+ƒ+P+ƒ+ú+ù+¥ )
And so have it been , For 2 thousands years we have been hunted, last time was at the Espigmene where Bartholemew send the police to take the monastary.
 The ones on the monastary where with god, could their hunter be with god too ?
How about his follower that didn't react? Can they be with god when supporting an hunterer ? If they didn't new about it , yes they can be with god ( I hope), but if they new about the hunting they are as quilty as the ones that have hunted Christians for the last 2 thousand years.

In the Byzantine empior we had patrirch that burned Icons, The Icon burners had almost distinquesed all true orthodox , but after I while the small group that's was left got the evlogi and help the empire become orthodox again.

This time we have the ecuminical movments , The ecumenical movments is showing love to everybody, everybody exept to the ones that follow the law.
The ones that choose the difficult way the way of the law they are called fanatics.
 And Yes maybe we are fanatics, but rather fanatic with my love to god ,than to treacher and betray god so that I can be loved with the people around me.

I wonder what would you chooce if you lived in the yeras of icon-machi , would you have choose to follow the patriarch or would you follow the gods-law ??
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« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2005, 07:23:01 AM »

RE Cleavland !

 You reed the apostolical law by your self,  It sais clearly not even pray toghether !!

But Patriarch bartholemew does pray very often with eritics , if you follow some of Barthelomews liturgys you will se latins , monofysits in his liturgy praying togheter.

The same with Archibishop Christodoulos of Athens , he brought the Pope to Greece, where the praid togehter, IN Rome the even hade krypyyo-liturgy , that means that as an orthodox I can't follow them though they are excumunicated by the apostolic law.
I would actually love to follow, but it is not possible.

We have to accept that fact that Church Politics do require sacrifice from Patriarch Bartholomew and Archbishop Christodoulos (and the other Patriarchs as well). If the Ecumenical Patriarch were to just blast the heretics away just because they are heretics there would be no hope of a future union with them.

Who wasn't there? Only the MP wasn't there, and he was replaced by Metropolitan Kyrillos, no? It wasn't like he didn't want the Russian Church to be represented.
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« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2005, 07:35:55 AM »

[Who wasn't there? Only the MP wasn't there, and he was replaced by Metropolitan Kyrillos, no? ]

The information you are receiving from wherever is not correct. Not only that but it is insulting to anyone whois under the authority of the MP! So, for the last time -

THE ONLY EASTERN ORTHODOX PATRIARCH THAT WAS PRESENT WAS THE EP! Can you show me where the  Patriarchs Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia, etc.,  or the others were standing? Representatives from the various Orthodox Churches (including the OCA & RUSSIA) were present, BUT NOT THEIR HIGHEST RANKING AUTHORITY (Patriarchs) no matter what you read elsewhere on papal Catholic sites!

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« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2005, 07:44:01 AM »

Okey, okey, no need to get upset. I'm not observing topics all day.
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« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2005, 02:23:30 PM »

So Please tell me what is my choice ? Can I choose to not follow the law and still be on the right path ?
I wan't to save my soul not my face ! Apostel Pavlos who was full of love said that we are not even alloud to say Hi to the false teacher, Please tell does someone of us have more love than apostel Pavlos ??

Those who believe they can do right by separating themselves from the Church, which is the Body of Christ, and form the Hierarchs Christ has put over us fools himself. What you advocate is Schism, a crime no less evil, and perphas far more so, than heresy or apostasy, for where the Heretics and Apostates deny Christ, the Schismatics seek to destroy the His Body; in the words of St. John Chrysostom:

Quote
Therefore I assert and protest, that to make a schism in the Church is no less an evil than to fall into heresy. Tell me, suppose a subject of some king, though he did not join himself to another king, nor give himself to any other, yet should take and keep hold of his king's royal purple, and should tear it all from its clasp, and rend it into many shreds; would he suffer less punishment than those who join. themselves to the service of another? And what, if withal he were to seize the king himself by the throat and slay him, and tear his body limb from limb, what punishment could he undergo, that should be equal to his deserts? Now if in doing this toward a king, his fellow-servant, he would be committing an act too great for any punishment to reach; of what hell shall not he be worthy who slays Christ, and plucks Him limb from limb? of that one which is threatened? No, I think not, but of another far more dreadful.


And so have it been , For 2 thousands years we have been hunted, last time was at the Espigmene where Bartholemew send the police to take the monastary.
 The ones on the monastary where with god, could their hunter be with god too ?
How about his follower that didn't react? Can they be with god when supporting an hunterer ? If they didn't new about it , yes they can be with god ( I hope), but if they new about the hunting they are as quilty as the ones that have hunted Christians for the last 2 thousand years.

Those people who defied the Patriarch and created a Schism in the Church are not of God...see the above quote of Chrysostom, and see how more radical a punishment he would suggest.

This time we have the ecuminical movments , The ecumenical movments is showing love to everybody, everybody exept to the ones that follow the law.
The ones that choose the difficult way the way of the law they are called fanatics.
 And Yes maybe we are fanatics, but rather fanatic with my love to god ,than to treacher and betray god so that I can be loved with the people around me.

The only law we are under is the Law of Christ which is Grace. You have a very Jewish notion of law, which is fundamentally opposed to Christian thought, there is no absolute law that we follow, the fullness of our faith cannot be bound in any book, though as a Canonist I love the Canons dearly. If you take our Canonical tradition outside the context of the Church it no longer serves righteousness but sin. You have taken the Law out of the Context of the Church, and thus your applications of it are applications unto iniquity, for without the Spirit of God which guides the Church you do not have the Loving, Merciful, and Compassionate spirit of the Law.
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« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2005, 03:10:53 PM »

Please greekischristian can you answer my question ,

 How would you react if you lived in the years of icono-machi ? Whould you support and show love to the many who burned icons and didn't follow rules ?  Would you call the few that follow the rule for schismatic ?  How do you know who lefts the body of christ and who don't.  I want to be in the body of christ most of all.  But how can I accept that someone who don't follow rules and are hunting the ones that disagree with him. Than it so not a church of christ.  The church of christ has rules therefor Ortho (rigt) doxa .
 If you don't follow rules it is Hetero (diffrent)-doxa

Then again !  You comfuse me I actually thougt that all orthodox have same ideas as me, do you really think that Bartholemew had right when he tried to take the Esfigmene monastery with violence ?  From when does we Christians get the right to punish the ones that don't follow us ? It is Gos jobb to punish not our.

Actually I'm shocked , Who and What are you ? Please tell me what's the diffrence between the latins and orthodoxy if both or killing and punish the ones that does't follow them ? Maybe Stalin did right too when he killed 60 million orthodox who tried to dived his contry.

 For 80 years the New-callenderist have put the old-callenderist in yale took their churches and many thnings more, We have had two big hunting periods in the last 80 years ,The first hunting stopped after that o big cross signed in the sky. Sorry but I have lost my mind maybe I missunderstand you , but I cant wrigt any more, I cant understand how orthodox people can say such I thing as to punish the ones that lefts them.
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« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2005, 03:16:14 PM »

Greekischristian can you please tell me more about the sanit you wright about, I have heared his name many times so I belive it is a big saint, but does he really mean that we are aloud to punish other people ? Actually I am very confused, and I don't think you have made this upp that's why I am so cunfused, I thought that we where the only religion who didn't punish diffrent thinking.

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« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2005, 03:50:33 PM »

How would you react if you lived in the years of icono-machi ? Whould you support and show love to the many who burned icons and didn't follow rules ? Would you call the few that follow the rule for schismatic ? How do you know who lefts the body of christ and who don't. I want to be in the body of christ most of all. But how can I accept that someone who don't follow rules and are hunting the ones that disagree with him. Than it so not a church of christ. The church of christ has rules therefor Ortho (rigt) doxa .
 If you don't follow rules it is Hetero (diffrent)-doxa

The Rules? The Church is not defined as those who follow a certain set of Rules...the Church is where the Bishop is, who the Bishops are is decided by the Synods of the Church. It is not for the laity or for a few rogue Bishops to condemn their Synod, nor is it for them to define the Dogmas of the Church; and now I dont even see what dogmatic issue these rogue bishops would even use to pretend to condemn the Holy Synods. What great dogmatic heresy are you accusing his All-Holiness of? All of the complaints you have put forward this far are simply administrative and disciplinary in nature, not dogmatic. And you forget that the Canons (which are NOT Rules) are for those Synods to decree and implement, not the laity; offer your canonical opinion if you wish, there is nothing wrong with that, but remain inside the Church and acknowledge that Authority lies with the Synod, and submit yourself to that Authority on all these administrative and disciplinary matters.

Then again ! You comfuse me I actually thougt that all orthodox have same ideas as me, do you really think that Bartholemew had right when he tried to take the Esfigmene monastery with violence ? From when does we Christians get the right to punish the ones that don't follow us ? It is Gos jobb to punish not our.

Actually it was the State of Greece that tried to evict the Schismatics, since they were no longer allowed to stay there legally after their rebellion against the Oecumenical Throne. And this is hardly the first time in the history of the Church that the State has dealt with Heretics or Schismatics. It goes back to the Arian Controversy when St. Constantine exiled the leaders of the Arians beyond the boundaries of the Empire after the Great and Holy Synod of Nicea.

Greekischristian can you please tell me more about the sanit you wright about, I have heared his name many times so I belive it is a big saint, but does he really mean that we are aloud to punish other people ? Actually I am very confused, and I don't think you have made this upp that's why I am so cunfused, I thought that we where the only religion who didn't punish diffrent thinking.

St. John Chryosotom? One of the greatest fathers of the Church, he was Patriarch of Constantinople at the turn of the fifth century, probably the greatest orator in the history of the Church. As far as his advocation of punishing peoples? Sometimes, but not in the above quote...in the above quote he is refering to the Eternal Punishment that those who commit Schism will receive in Heaven. The quote comes from St. John Chrysostom's 11th Homily on the Epistle to the Ephesians.
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« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2005, 05:06:08 PM »

Because I don't understand everything, what exactly do you mean

And you forget that the Canons (which are NOT Rules) are for those Synods to decree and implement, not the laity; offer your canonical opinion if you wish, there is nothing wrong with that, but remain inside the Church and acknowledge that Authority lies with the Synod, and submit yourself to that Authority on all these administrative and disciplinary matters.

What exactly or canons ? Why do they canons say that if someone pray with heterodox he will be excumunicated if it is not the case ??
 How will I recive the canons ? Are they jused pointless words or do they have a strict meaning ? You have really confused me , I have always thougt that a canon is a strict law. where exactly can I find out more of how to read canons.



Quote
Actually it was the State of Greece that tried to evict the Schismatics, since they were no longer allowed to stay there legally after their rebellion against the Oecumenical Throne.

But I actually knew that from court in Greece they said that greek contry don't want to interact on Mount Athous though it is under EP.
You are now telling me something else , maybe both of us are confused at the last question. Acording to greek authorities it is Bartholemew behind, but I hope that you are right,and I will try to look at the court papers.

Then there is a law wich says don't follow the herretics, how can I know who is herretic and whom not ?
It becomes even more difficult when you are saying that there is no canons nor law's to follow.
What's actually the diffrence between an heretic and a orthodox.

And about the esfigmene munks they have not hurt anyone, they don't even take the money from the EU but they are letting the EP take them , then they have Euxaristy from Russians, and if you don't accept the ROCA you don't accept Jerusalem and Serbian Patriarch. So they are not schimatic, they only thing they want is to follow the canons and the rules of our church father in combination with strong love to god, why can't the be left to dot it in peace ?
 Why do they have to be hunted ? And we can't say that Gud doen't suppurt them because the cross that light the night of Attica should be enough for everone to understand that this peoples intention is nothning else but than to serve god.

Don't miss judge my I am actually intressted in saving my soul, I went in to this church because I say what strong love and faith that everybody had in this church , and I was blended by their love to god.
I mean how can you combine loving God and meanwhile taking salary for serving him. Shouldn't god pay for his preachers ? Heaven't Christ worned us about the precher with salary, don't you lose the euxaristi if you take money to do a mystirium or is it jused a myth that i have been told ?

I actually can't see any harm that this people the old-calendrist of Grecee are creating, I only see very strong love and faith. Maybe we are schismatic but then we are schismatic for our love to god, because what ever we do we do it to honour god.

Maybe everything is jused a big illusion to decive us, I actually don't now that much .

With Christ love , and may Christ ligth over all of us


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« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2005, 06:26:20 PM »

What exactly or canons ? Why do they canons say that if someone pray with heterodox he will be excumunicated if it is not the case ??
 How will I recive the canons ? Are they jused pointless words or do they have a strict meaning ? You have really confused me , I have always thougt that a canon is a strict law. where exactly can I find out more of how to read canons.

The Holy Canons are the temporal manifestation of Eternal Truths. The particulars they teach are bound to the time, culture, and society in which they were promulgated but the underlying truths are timeless principles. As to what to read to find out more about the Canons, I would recommend my Professor of Canon Law, Dr. Lewis Patsavos', book Spiritual Dimensions of the Holy Canons...he also has a good essay online that is a brief introduction to the Canonical Tradition of the Orthodox Church:

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7071.asp

But I actually knew that from court in Greece they said that greek contry don't want to interact on Mount Athous though it is under EP.
You are now telling me something else , maybe both of us are confused at the last question. Acording to greek authorities it is Bartholemew behind, but I hope that you are right,and I will try to look at the court papers.

Technically speaking Mt. Athos is governed by a Ruling Council of the Monasteries, which is, of course, subject to the Oecumenical Throne. As to who pushed the issue of removing the schismatic monastics, I am not certain; however, it is a law that only monasteries in communion with the Oecumenical Throne are allowed on Mt. Athos, and the State of Greece is bound to enforce that law; if the monks wanted to stay on Mt. Athos they should have re-entered into communion with Constantinople.

Then there is a law wich says don't follow the herretics, how can I know who is herretic and whom not ?
It becomes even more difficult when you are saying that there is no canons nor law's to follow.
What's actually the diffrence between an heretic and a orthodox.

No one ever said it was easy, fortunately we have the Church to guide us.

And about the esfigmene munks they have not hurt anyone, they don't even take the money from the EU but they are letting the EP take them , then they have Euxaristy from Russians, and if you don't accept the ROCA you don't accept Jerusalem and Serbian Patriarch. So they are not schimatic, they only thing they want is to follow the canons and the rules of our church father in combination with strong love to god, why can't the be left to dot it in peace ?
 Why do they have to be hunted ?  And we can't say that Gud doen't suppurt them because the cross that light the night of Attica should be enough for everone to understand that this peoples intention is nothning else but than to serve god.

They are Schismatics because the Monastery is within the (completely undisputed) jurisdiction of the Oecumenical Throne, and they refuse to Commemorate the Patriarch, thus since they are under his omophorion and broke communion with him, they are Schismatics.

Don't miss judge my I am actually intressted in saving my soul, I  went in to this church because I say what strong love and faith that everybody had in this church , and I was blended by their love to god.
I mean how can you combine loving God and meanwhile taking salary for serving him.  Shouldn't god pay for his preachers ? Heaven't Christ worned us about the precher with salary, don't you lose the euxaristi if you take money to do a mystirium or is it jused a myth that i have been told ?

I don't know what you're trying to get at, but even St. Paul said that he had the right to be financially supported for his ministry, eventhough he choose to support himself. A Priest being paid for his service to the community is not Simony.

I actually can't see any harm that this people the old-calendrist of Grecee are creating, I only see very strong love and faith.  Maybe we are schismatic but then we are schismatic for our love to god, because what ever we do we do it to honour god.

Schism is inherently harmful, it creates a division in the Body of Christ and is a Blasphemy against the Unifying Nature of the Eucharist. God is not honoured by division in His Church and amongst the Faithful.
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« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2005, 06:31:13 PM »

Greekchristian, a clearly didn't understand where you stand in the esfigmene quistion ? Should they be hunted or not ? I hope that you understand that if you answer is Yes I can't continue speaking with you , It's very easy because I don't see any comon between me and the the ones that want me and my people away from this world.

About the law of mount athos it has been changed in 1920's , Before it said Ereticos patriarxhs den mnimonevete = Heritical Patriarch can't be followed.

 So it is all a big soap, I wonder whre evrything will end , but I knew one thing that unti 1920's no one where aloud to throuw out munks and take their monasterys, even if they where heretics. It is funny that at the same time that the changed the law we had an  patriarch ellected in an orthodox way. Please read more about it and draw your conclusions.

 Maybe we are stuped people following old ruls, But please let us be in peace , why hunting us ? Have we ever harmed you ? The only things we do is to exist, and as I said until 1920's you where not aloud to throw anyone out, so why can't you return to the old law.

And actually I will prefer to follow the word's of saint then the word of Dr. Lewis Patsavos'.

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« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2005, 07:19:11 PM »

>"Should they be hunted or not ? I hope that you understand that if you answer is Yes I can't continue speaking with you"

Brother Justionios,

I think that in the past there was the violence you are suggesting.

Once an unjust hand reached out but it was to hit, to kill, to destroy.

Since then you are afraid of any hand that reach out for you.

Believe me that to "live with Christ" is to "live with others".
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« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2005, 07:25:55 PM »

Okey, okey, no need to get upset. I'm not observing topics all day.

Ntinos, Othodoc's point is mainly to just please be precise in your language to avoid confusion and possible scandal.  That's all. 
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« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2005, 08:21:03 PM »

Greekchristian, a clearly didn't understand where you stand in the esfigmene quistion ? Should they be hunted or not ? I hope that you understand that if you answer is Yes  I can't continue speaking with you , It's very easy because I don't see any comon between me and the the ones that want me and my people away from this world.

Of course they should be evicted (not shot, or imprisoned, vel cetera), they have entered into schism, and have cut themselves off from the Body of Christ; they are no longer part of us. Mt. Athos is for the Orthodox, not the heterodox that these monastics, by entering into schism, have become...they had no right to break communion with their Patriarch.

And actually I will prefer to follow the word's of saint then the word of Dr. Lewis Patsavos'.

If you want to read the traditional sources, and your Patristic Greek is good enough, feel free to read Balsamon, Zonaras, and Aristenos...but if you dont understand the History of the Canonical Tradition of the Church and how the Church has used and applied her Canonical Tradition, it's not going to do you any good; most the conclusions you come to will be inaccurate.
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« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2005, 05:27:36 AM »

Justionios,

the problem with Esphigmenou is that the monks there want to have their cake and eat it too. They know full well that their monastery is under the jurisdiction of the EP, the monastery is not theirs as monks have no possessions themselves. So when they refused to commemorate the EP, they knew full well that the possible consequences of their act would be their eviction from the monastery. It seems they are willing to be martyrs only to the extent where they don't have to give up their creature comforts. The martyr saints of the church accepted the full consequences of their confession of Christ, including torture and death. These monks aren't willing to accept all the consequences of the stand they have taken, despite them being far less severe than those faced by the saints. There are also many saints of the church who were at one time or another exiled by the church at the time, patriarchs included among them. None of these locked themselves in the building and refused to go.

So, although I agree with the concerns of the monks at Esphigmenou and believe the EP has handled the situation attrociously, I don't believe the monks are being honest in their approach. Besides, there are plenty of Old Calendar monasteries in Greece who would be willing to accept them so it is not like they are going to face extreme hardship if they leave Mount Athos.

John
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« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2005, 01:22:04 PM »

the problem with Esphigmenou is that the monks there want to have their cake and eat it too. They know full well that their monastery is under the jurisdiction of the EP, the monastery is not theirs as monks have no possessions themselves. So when they refused to commemorate the EP, they knew full well that the possible consequences of their act would be their eviction from the monastery. It seems they are willing to be martyrs only to the extent where they don't have to give up their creature comforts. The martyr saints of the church accepted the full consequences of their confession of Christ, including torture and death. These monks aren't willing to accept all the consequences of the stand they have taken, despite them being far less severe than those faced by the saints. There are also many saints of the church who were at one time or another exiled by the church at the time, patriarchs included among them. None of these locked themselves in the building and refused to go.

So, although I agree with the concerns of the monks at Esphigmenou and believe the EP has handled the situation attrociously, I don't believe the monks are being honest in their approach. Besides, there are plenty of Old Calendar monasteries in Greece who would be willing to accept them so it is not like they are going to face extreme hardship if they leave Mount Athos.

John

How do you mean want to both eat and to eat the cake ? Bartholemew is easting their peace of the cake , the don't recive any money fron EU.

Yes every one of them is preapered to die , last time we had one death, this time maybe we will have more deaths, I also hope that this time we will have more puplic people who goes there.

And the old law allows this munks to stay in protest , it is the new law that forbids them. It's funny that the law was changed at the same time as the Callender was changed.

And Yes , there has been munks that have closed them selvs in in the mount athos monastarys, In the 1200 Under Patrirarch B+ò+Ü+Ü+¬ , it was the ZWGRAFITE MUNKS AND I think that it was BATOPPEDION tou who clossed them selvs in a monastery. The munks didn't accept the patriarch because he had it god with latins. Anf therofre we did what Batholemew want to do on the esfigmene munks.
 Please read their story , and draw parralels to today happenings.

Please see the situation from their said to understand the situation. The beggining of their reaction was when Patriarch Athinagoras took away the Anathema of the latins,
 They felt that it is their duty to reacht , meanwhiles the are in a a very diffucult situation.
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« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2005, 01:26:38 PM »

Patriarch Varthalomeos was not the one to lift the anathema, Pat Athenagoras did...you you now suggesting he re-impose it?
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« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2005, 01:46:19 PM »

RE: Elisha
Please don't miss jused me , I don't hate anyone, and I don't want them bad, I actually want the very best for even for Greekorthodox, and I really hope the best for him. And I want to live many people but they don't want to live with me, they don't accept me, reed the belliow line,

Of course they should be evicted (not shot, or imprisoned, vel cetera), they have entered into schism, and have cut themselves off from the Body of Christ; they are no longer part of us. Mt. Athos is for the Orthodox, not the heterodox that these monastics, by entering into schism, have become...they had no right to break communion with their Patriarch.

They are saying that it is free to throow out, take the land and houses from anybody that don't agree with them, who can i ever live with them when the see me almost as the source of evelness ?

Please tell me Elisha what's the diffrence between living under Bartholemew and Sadam ? They have both change the laws so if you don't agree with them you get punished.

Meanwile the are leting Prince Charles and many other protestants and latins to move unobothered in Mount Athos , but we can't. Or the not heteridox ?
 Don't you see that something is wrong.
 I don't mean that Protestants are not welcome, because alla the world should be wellcomed, I mean that the ones that follows the o rulles of our old fathers are not wellecomed.
 And again what's the diffrence betwen a Sadam and Bartholemew, the both change law, and the both punish their opponenets.


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« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2005, 01:53:02 PM »

Justionios,
The whole point is obedience.  The monks are under obedience to the EP.  They must respect his decision whether is be the right decision or not.  They can try to appeal, send a good argument and hopefully convince him otherwise, but in the end, they must obey or suffer the consequences.  That is what the monastic life is about - obedience.  Talking about the non-Orthodox (e.g. Prince Charles, etc.) is a complete non-sequitur to this discussion.
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« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2005, 02:02:54 PM »

Elisha ,
That's exactlly the point they don't want to obey Bartholemew, exactly as the wont't obey Sadam.

 That's the point , If someone don't obey he becomes schismatic, but you or not aloud to punich him.
That's why we have a free religion.
You can't tell me that orthodoxy sais obey the patriarch however he is ? It is up tou you.
 Maybe if you put some thought on it you will understand that in orthodoxy we can't force someone to obey.
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« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2005, 02:13:08 PM »

Elisha ,
That's exactlly the point they don't want to obey Bartholemew, exactly as the wont't obey Sadam.

 That's the point , If someone don't obey he becomes schismatic, but you or not aloud to punich him.
That's why we have a free religion.
You can't tell me that orthodoxy sais obey the patriarch however he is ? It is up tou you.
 Maybe if you put some thought on it you will understand that in orthodoxy we can't force someone to obey.

I dont think you understand how Mt. Athos works, Mt. Athos is a Theocracy, it is not a Democracy. There is no freedom of Religion on Mt. Athos, it is an Orthodox Theocratic State, ruled by a Monastic Council, and Orthodoxy (in Communion with the Oecumenical Patriarchate) is the only legitimate and legal Religion. With that said, the heterodox are allowed to visit Mt. Athos under certain conditions; however, they are not allowed to become monks on Mt. Athos or live there without becoming Orthodox and coming under Obedience to the Oecumenical Patriarch. If you become a Schismatic, you have to leave, that's how the law there works...let me say it again, there is NO Freedom of Religion; and if you reject the Orthodox Faith, you can be punished (mind you, eviction is a very minor 'punishment' compared to how Schismatics and Heretics were treated in times past during the Empire).
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« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2005, 02:16:28 PM »

That's why we have a free religion. 
You can't tell me that orthodoxy sais obey the patriarch however he is ?  It is up tou you.
Maybe if you put some thought on it you will understand that in orthodoxy we can't force someone to obey. 

Okay, there are two different levels on which you are either incorrect or leaving yourself open to misinterpretation.

1. "That's why we have a free religion" - um, not exactly.  We are obedient to Christ, and within the religion (if we wish to be in the Faith) we must be obedient to Christ.

2. "You can't tell me that orthodoxy sais obey the patriarch however he is ?  It is up tou you." - In the context of this discussion, you are completely incorrect.  Monks in a monestary who are Great Schema monks have taken vows of utter obedience to their Abbot, and their Abbot to the bishop.  They are bound as monks to obey their hierarch; it is the foundation of monastic life.  The only case would be if he told them to do something that is morally incorrect, they could object.  But if their hierarch is doing things elsewhere and they do not agree with him, they can voice their opinion, but it is not their choice to cease commemorating him.  Without obedience in monastic life - and this means obedience even unto death to one's Abbot and hierarch - then monastic life would not posess the grace that it does.
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« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2005, 02:20:32 PM »

Elisha ,
That's exactlly the point they don't want to obey Bartholemew, exactly as the wont't obey Sadam.

 That's the point , If someone don't obey he becomes schismatic, but you or not aloud to punich him.
That's why we have a free religion.
You can't tell me that orthodoxy sais obey the patriarch however he is ? It is up tou you.
 Maybe if you put some thought on it you will understand that in orthodoxy we can't force someone to obey.

His All-H Bartholomew <> Sadam. Not even close. Yet you forget - Mt. Athos is literally a theocracy. The EP DOES have a right to evict them and we should respect that evicting action IF a group is in disobedience. What those monks probably should've done was to appeal to the EP to hopefully make him change his mind, and if that fails, maybe obey in the short term while trying to find another monastery and get a canonical transfer in the meantime.
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« Reply #40 on: April 11, 2005, 02:37:46 PM »

Until today I have always longed for rebourn new Rome were a Orthodox Patriarch should be the King. But you have splached my dreams in thousands of peaces. It can't be like you are seing, A Patriarch can't be aloud to punsh his opponents, something most be wrong !
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« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2005, 02:52:36 PM »

Until today I have always longed for rebourn new Rome were a Orthodox Patriarch should be the King.  But you have splached my dreams in thousands of peaces. It can't be like you are seing, A Patriarch can't be aloud to punsh his opponents, something most be wrong !

Justin,
How long have you been Orthodox?  The situation is not how you are seeing it.  They are not his 'opponents'.  They are monks under his authority that have disobeyed.  If they have disobeyed, then they should be evicted.  If you are a grown adult and you disobey your dad, he has every right (and probably should) kick you out of his house.
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« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2005, 03:28:58 PM »

For Christians above all men are forbidden to correct the stumblings of sinners by force ... It is necessary to make a man better not by force but by persuasion. We neither have authority granted us by law to restrain sinners, nor, if it were, should we know how to use it, since God gives the crown to those who are kept from evil, not by force, but by choice. - St. John Chrysostom

icxn

 For a small while I thought that you maybe (verry maybe) had right and I looked it up ! The words above speaks for them selvs, you can't be orthodox and punish the ones that diisobey you. And you can not compare a parrent hitting its children with emporer confiscating land.
I have put wait on everything that you have said and I have investigate it, but have you done the same ?
Have you ever asked your selfs if it is Bartholemew that has wrong and the Esfigmenites that are right ?

And truley you have helped me get the answer of why there exist now Byzzantium, You neo-orthodox show no merchy , but the Turks does.

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« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2005, 03:38:29 PM »

I addressed this in the other thread you started.
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« Reply #44 on: April 12, 2005, 06:00:37 PM »

Well as far as it concerns Esfigmenou im against any move by the Patriarchate removing them from the Monastery.
Some years ago police tried to resolve the situation with force but it failed , im not sure who mediated that time. But there is a point here by Justionios its sad  we lock ourselves hunting those monks they are Orthodoxs after all and i wouldnt want to see any orthodox regardless of their believs or their deprecation about the Patriarchate getting harmed-.

Sometimes things can look strange . In these special matter im really sad seeing Orthodox people showing more love to others then their own.

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