Author Topic: Abstract version of the Trinity  (Read 7146 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Samuel Stuart Maynes

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Abstract version of the Trinity
« on: April 22, 2014, 05:08:39 PM »
If you are interested in some new ideas on religious pluralism and the Trinity, please check out my website at www.religiouspluralism.ca, and give me your thoughts on improving content and presentation.

My thesis is that an abstract version of the Trinity could be Christianity’s answer to the world need for a framework of pluralistic theology.

In a constructive worldview: east, west, and far-east religions present a threefold understanding of One God manifest primarily in Muslim and Hebrew intuition of the Deity Absolute, Christian and Krishnan Hindu conception of the Universal Absolute Supreme Being; and Shaivite Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist apprehension of the Destroyer (meaning also Consummator), Unconditioned Absolute, or Spirit of All That Is and is not. Together with their variations and combinations in other major religions, these religious ideas reflect and express our collective understanding of God, in an expanded concept of the Holy Trinity.

The Trinity Absolute is portrayed in the logic of world religions, as follows:   

1. Muslims and Jews may be said to worship only the first person of the Trinity, i.e. the existential Deity Absolute Creator, known as Allah or Yhwh, Abba or Father (as Jesus called him), Brahma, and other names; represented by Gabriel (Executive Archangel), Muhammad and Moses (mighty messenger prophets), and others.

2. Christians and Krishnan Hindus may be said to worship the first person through a second person, i.e. the experiential Universe or "Universal” Absolute Supreme Being (Allsoul or Supersoul), called Son/Christ or Vishnu/Krishna; represented by Michael (Supreme Archangel), Jesus (teacher and savior of souls), and others. The Allsoul is that gestalt of personal human consciousness, which we expect will be the "body of Christ" (Mahdi, Messiah, Kalki or Maitreya) in the second coming – personified in history by Muhammad, Jesus Christ, Buddha (9th incarnation of Vishnu), and others.

3. Shaivite Hindus, Buddhists, and Confucian-Taoists seem to venerate the synthesis of the first and second persons in a third person or appearance, ie. the Destiny Consummator of ultimate reality – unqualified Nirvana consciousness – associative Tao of All That Is – the absonite* Unconditioned Absolute Spirit “Synthesis of Source and Synthesis,”** who/which is logically expected to be Allah/Abba/Brahma glorified  in and by union with the Supreme Being – represented in religions by Gabriel, Michael, and other Archangels, Mahadevas, Spiritpersons, etc., who may be included within the mysterious Holy Ghost.

Other strains of religion seem to be psychological variations on the third person, or possibly combinations and permutations of the members of the Trinity – all just different personality perspectives on the Same God. Taken together, the world’s major religions give us at least two insights into the first person of this thrice-personal One God, two perceptions of the second person, and at least three glimpses of the third.

* The ever-mysterious Holy Ghost or Unconditioned Spirit is neither absolutely infinite, nor absolutely finite, but absonite; meaning neither existential nor experiential, but their ultimate consummation; neither fully ideal nor totally real, but a middle path and grand synthesis of the superconscious and the conscious, in consciousness of the unconscious.

** This conception is so strong because somewhat as the Absonite Spirit is a synthesis of the spirit of the Absolute and the spirit of the Supreme, so it would seem that the evolving Supreme Being may himself also be a synthesis or “gestalt” of humanity with itself, in an Almighty Universe Allperson or Supersoul. Thus ultimately, the Absonite is their Unconditioned Absolute Coordinate Identity – the Spirit Synthesis of Source and Synthesis – the metaphysical Destiny Consummator of All That Is.

After the Hindu and Buddhist conceptions, perhaps the most subtle expression and comprehensive symbol of the 3rd person of the Trinity is the Tao (see book cover); involving the harmonization of “yin and yang” (great opposing ideas indentified in positive and negative, or otherwise contrasting terms). In the Taoist icon of yin and yang, the s-shaped line separating the black and white spaces may be interpreted as the Unconditioned “Middle Path” between condition and conditioned opposites, while the circle that encompasses them both suggests their synthesis in the Spirit of the “Great Way” or Tao of All That Is.

If the small black and white circles or “eyes” are taken to represent a nucleus of truth in both yin and yang, then the metaphysics of this symbolism fits nicely with the paradoxical mystery of the Christian Holy Ghost; who is neither the spirit of the one nor the spirit of the other, but the Glorified Spirit proceeding from both, taken altogether – as one entity – personally distinct from his co-equal, co-eternal and fully coordinate co-sponsors, who differentiate from him, as well as mingle and meld in him.

For more details, please see: www.religiouspluralism.ca

Samuel Stuart Maynes


Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Strategos
  • ******************
  • Posts: 41,769
Re: The Holy and Great Council will be held in 2016 in Istanbul
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2014, 05:11:21 PM »
Christ is risen!
If you are interested in some new ideas on religious pluralism and the Trinity, please check out my website at www.religiouspluralism.ca, and give me your thoughts on improving content and presentation.

My thesis is that an abstract version of the Trinity could be Christianity’s answer to the world need for a framework of pluralistic theology.

In a constructive worldview: east, west, and far-east religions present a threefold understanding of One God manifest primarily in Muslim and Hebrew intuition of the Deity Absolute, Christian and Krishnan Hindu conception of the Universal Absolute Supreme Being; and Shaivite Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist apprehension of the Destroyer (meaning also Consummator), Unconditioned Absolute, or Spirit of All That Is and is not. Together with their variations and combinations in other major religions, these religious ideas reflect and express our collective understanding of God, in an expanded concept of the Holy Trinity.

The Trinity Absolute is portrayed in the logic of world religions, as follows:   

1. Muslims and Jews may be said to worship only the first person of the Trinity, i.e. the existential Deity Absolute Creator, known as Allah or Yhwh, Abba or Father (as Jesus called him), Brahma, and other names; represented by Gabriel (Executive Archangel), Muhammad and Moses (mighty messenger prophets), and others.

2. Christians and Krishnan Hindus may be said to worship the first person through a second person, i.e. the experiential Universe or "Universal” Absolute Supreme Being (Allsoul or Supersoul), called Son/Christ or Vishnu/Krishna; represented by Michael (Supreme Archangel), Jesus (teacher and savior of souls), and others. The Allsoul is that gestalt of personal human consciousness, which we expect will be the "body of Christ" (Mahdi, Messiah, Kalki or Maitreya) in the second coming – personified in history by Muhammad, Jesus Christ, Buddha (9th incarnation of Vishnu), and others.

3. Shaivite Hindus, Buddhists, and Confucian-Taoists seem to venerate the synthesis of the first and second persons in a third person or appearance, ie. the Destiny Consummator of ultimate reality – unqualified Nirvana consciousness – associative Tao of All That Is – the absonite* Unconditioned Absolute Spirit “Synthesis of Source and Synthesis,”** who/which is logically expected to be Allah/Abba/Brahma glorified  in and by union with the Supreme Being – represented in religions by Gabriel, Michael, and other Archangels, Mahadevas, Spiritpersons, etc., who may be included within the mysterious Holy Ghost.

Other strains of religion seem to be psychological variations on the third person, or possibly combinations and permutations of the members of the Trinity – all just different personality perspectives on the Same God. Taken together, the world’s major religions give us at least two insights into the first person of this thrice-personal One God, two perceptions of the second person, and at least three glimpses of the third.

* The ever-mysterious Holy Ghost or Unconditioned Spirit is neither absolutely infinite, nor absolutely finite, but absonite; meaning neither existential nor experiential, but their ultimate consummation; neither fully ideal nor totally real, but a middle path and grand synthesis of the superconscious and the conscious, in consciousness of the unconscious.

** This conception is so strong because somewhat as the Absonite Spirit is a synthesis of the spirit of the Absolute and the spirit of the Supreme, so it would seem that the evolving Supreme Being may himself also be a synthesis or “gestalt” of humanity with itself, in an Almighty Universe Allperson or Supersoul. Thus ultimately, the Absonite is their Unconditioned Absolute Coordinate Identity – the Spirit Synthesis of Source and Synthesis – the metaphysical Destiny Consummator of All That Is.

After the Hindu and Buddhist conceptions, perhaps the most subtle expression and comprehensive symbol of the 3rd person of the Trinity is the Tao (see book cover); involving the harmonization of “yin and yang” (great opposing ideas indentified in positive and negative, or otherwise contrasting terms). In the Taoist icon of yin and yang, the s-shaped line separating the black and white spaces may be interpreted as the Unconditioned “Middle Path” between condition and conditioned opposites, while the circle that encompasses them both suggests their synthesis in the Spirit of the “Great Way” or Tao of All That Is.

If the small black and white circles or “eyes” are taken to represent a nucleus of truth in both yin and yang, then the metaphysics of this symbolism fits nicely with the paradoxical mystery of the Christian Holy Ghost; who is neither the spirit of the one nor the spirit of the other, but the Glorified Spirit proceeding from both, taken altogether – as one entity – personally distinct from his co-equal, co-eternal and fully coordinate co-sponsors, who differentiate from him, as well as mingle and meld in him.

For more details, please see: www.religiouspluralism.ca

Samuel Stuart Maynes


We have embraced the Orthodox Faith, and hence have no need of "pluralism."
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,630
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2014, 06:16:45 PM »
Ialmisry has said all there needs to be said. Thank you!  :-*
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline IoanC

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,468
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2014, 02:23:32 AM »
It is interesting. I have had similar thoughts. What I find is that non-Testament(s) based religions don't literally attempt to worship The Holy Trinity as personal God, but will arrive at aspects of it whether they realize it or not; aspects that even Testament based religions have not fully arrived at, if at all. It is the human thirst for God and religion that drives people to spiritual creativity and discovery. That's why I believe there is something to learn from everything. I would not say that Christianity is the fullness of things, but it is definitely the essence and the place where you may find God as personal and revealed.

Offline Jovan

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 524
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2014, 04:17:01 AM »
If you are interested in some new ideas on religious pluralism and the Trinity, please check out my website at www.religiouspluralism.ca, and give me your thoughts on improving content and presentation.

My thesis is that an abstract version of the Trinity could be Christianity’s answer to the world need for a framework of pluralistic theology.

In a constructive worldview: east, west, and far-east religions present a threefold understanding of One God manifest primarily in Muslim and Hebrew intuition of the Deity Absolute, Christian and Krishnan Hindu conception of the Universal Absolute Supreme Being; and Shaivite Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist apprehension of the Destroyer (meaning also Consummator), Unconditioned Absolute, or Spirit of All That Is and is not. Together with their variations and combinations in other major religions, these religious ideas reflect and express our collective understanding of God, in an expanded concept of the Holy Trinity.

The Trinity Absolute is portrayed in the logic of world religions, as follows:   

1. Muslims and Jews may be said to worship only the first person of the Trinity, i.e. the existential Deity Absolute Creator, known as Allah or Yhwh, Abba or Father (as Jesus called him), Brahma, and other names; represented by Gabriel (Executive Archangel), Muhammad and Moses (mighty messenger prophets), and others.

2. Christians and Krishnan Hindus may be said to worship the first person through a second person, i.e. the experiential Universe or "Universal” Absolute Supreme Being (Allsoul or Supersoul), called Son/Christ or Vishnu/Krishna; represented by Michael (Supreme Archangel), Jesus (teacher and savior of souls), and others. The Allsoul is that gestalt of personal human consciousness, which we expect will be the "body of Christ" (Mahdi, Messiah, Kalki or Maitreya) in the second coming – personified in history by Muhammad, Jesus Christ, Buddha (9th incarnation of Vishnu), and others.

3. Shaivite Hindus, Buddhists, and Confucian-Taoists seem to venerate the synthesis of the first and second persons in a third person or appearance, ie. the Destiny Consummator of ultimate reality – unqualified Nirvana consciousness – associative Tao of All That Is – the absonite* Unconditioned Absolute Spirit “Synthesis of Source and Synthesis,”** who/which is logically expected to be Allah/Abba/Brahma glorified  in and by union with the Supreme Being – represented in religions by Gabriel, Michael, and other Archangels, Mahadevas, Spiritpersons, etc., who may be included within the mysterious Holy Ghost.

Other strains of religion seem to be psychological variations on the third person, or possibly combinations and permutations of the members of the Trinity – all just different personality perspectives on the Same God. Taken together, the world’s major religions give us at least two insights into the first person of this thrice-personal One God, two perceptions of the second person, and at least three glimpses of the third.

* The ever-mysterious Holy Ghost or Unconditioned Spirit is neither absolutely infinite, nor absolutely finite, but absonite; meaning neither existential nor experiential, but their ultimate consummation; neither fully ideal nor totally real, but a middle path and grand synthesis of the superconscious and the conscious, in consciousness of the unconscious.

** This conception is so strong because somewhat as the Absonite Spirit is a synthesis of the spirit of the Absolute and the spirit of the Supreme, so it would seem that the evolving Supreme Being may himself also be a synthesis or “gestalt” of humanity with itself, in an Almighty Universe Allperson or Supersoul. Thus ultimately, the Absonite is their Unconditioned Absolute Coordinate Identity – the Spirit Synthesis of Source and Synthesis – the metaphysical Destiny Consummator of All That Is.

After the Hindu and Buddhist conceptions, perhaps the most subtle expression and comprehensive symbol of the 3rd person of the Trinity is the Tao (see book cover); involving the harmonization of “yin and yang” (great opposing ideas indentified in positive and negative, or otherwise contrasting terms). In the Taoist icon of yin and yang, the s-shaped line separating the black and white spaces may be interpreted as the Unconditioned “Middle Path” between condition and conditioned opposites, while the circle that encompasses them both suggests their synthesis in the Spirit of the “Great Way” or Tao of All That Is.

If the small black and white circles or “eyes” are taken to represent a nucleus of truth in both yin and yang, then the metaphysics of this symbolism fits nicely with the paradoxical mystery of the Christian Holy Ghost; who is neither the spirit of the one nor the spirit of the other, but the Glorified Spirit proceeding from both, taken altogether – as one entity – personally distinct from his co-equal, co-eternal and fully coordinate co-sponsors, who differentiate from him, as well as mingle and meld in him.

For more details, please see: www.religiouspluralism.ca

Samuel Stuart Maynes



Do you put the same amount of effort to pray with this beautiful All-Holy Trinity? :P

In orthodoxy we say that the best of theologians are the ones that pray, a lot. Then mystery will be revealed about something that we otherwise can´t grasp in words or concepts.

Pray for me and forgive me, the sinner

“Belatedly I loved thee, O Beauty so ancient and so new, belatedly I loved thee. For see, thou wast within and I was without, and I sought thee out there."

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,887
  • I am the Provisional Supreme Church Authority
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2014, 10:23:22 AM »
OC.NET is full of temptations, but in temptations we are enforced, remember about the thread "Temptation in the Desert: Rachel Weisz and the Undoing of Mor Ephrem". OC.NET helps in becoming unpassionate.

Quote
Oh you Greeks, you are all dumb!

An Athonite

Offline primuspilus

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,990
  • Inserting personal quote here.
    • St. Gregory the Theologian Orthodox Church
  • Faith: Greek Orthodox (former WR)
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Boston
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2014, 10:30:01 AM »
Quote
My thesis is that an abstract version of the Trinity could be Christianity’s answer to the world need for a framework of pluralistic theology
The above is the cause of alot of the world's problems, not its solution.

The world needs the True Faith, not more pluralistic nonsense.

Pluralism destroys. Plain and simple.

PP

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,204
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2014, 10:39:35 AM »
Indeed, Orthodox Christianity is exclusive.  If you truly love and pray to the Holy Trinity, you'll treat God in an exclusive fashion, and her Church as well.  Other religions may have some aspect of the truth here and there, but never to compromise the fullness of truth in Christianity to please a pluralistic world.  If one is looking for peaceful coexistence, the world needs to learn to peacefully disagree, and to peacefully allow apostasy/conversions/evangelisms.  But the peace of this world does not exist.  True peace lies in Christ, the King of Peace.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 10:39:51 AM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Samuel Stuart Maynes

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2014, 08:08:48 PM »
I have had similar thoughts. What I find is that non-Testament(s) based religions don't literally attempt to worship The Holy Trinity as personal God, but will arrive at aspects of it whether they realize it or not; aspects that even Testament based religions have not fully arrived at, if at all.


Yes, "Testament based religions" may have to adjust their thinking a bit in order to get up to speed, but I’m not making this stuff up. Clearly, God has manifested himself through several historic messengers. The diversity of world religions may very well be rooted in the diversity of the divine life itself. Thus, a deeper understanding of the Trinity might include a synthesis of all that God has revealed of himself, as contained in the wisdom of all the world’s major religions.

If you read the Preview on my website at www.religiouspluralism.ca, you will see that I am merely expanding on what is already inherent (but sometimes obscured or hidden) in the orthodox concept of the Trinity. Despite apparent differences, the underlying similarities among religions suggest the possibility that they may all be merely different facets of the same multi-dimensional reality. It is only common sense that the Trinity would reveal itself in three basic religious attitudes to the Absolute. Indeed, when we examine world religions, we see in the personalities they portray and the language they use, a reflection of one or other (or some combination) of the three divine psychological personae.

My thesis is that as the world becomes more and more religiously and culturally diverse, we will have no choice but to practice pluralism in order to avoid a “clash of civilizations” over what amounts to a possibly preventable and ultimately correctable misunderstanding. To quote from my Homepage, I maintain that:

“As religious communities and as growing nations, our futures are inextricably linked, being joined at the hip so to speak. We must develop a truly multi-cultural, multi-religious society in order to get along. Religious variety would be a wonderful source of cultural stimulus, if religious beliefs could be placed in some sort of comprehensive context which recognizes the differences, but integrates their best attitudes in one inclusive framework. Diversity can be healthy and something to be celebrated. Pluralism also has the virtue of being a universal moral worldview.

Mere toleration is too fragile a foundation for a world of religious differences in close proximity. It does nothing to unite people, and leaves in place the stereotypes and fears that underlie old patterns of division and violence. In the world in which we live today, our elitism and ignorance of one another will be increasingly costly. If the interactions of society are to be at all a rational process, some set of principles must motivate the general participation of religious groups in the oneness of the community, without hindering the maintenance of each group of its own identity.

There must be some form of creative pluralism or constructive interpretation that will allow all groups to agree to a “minimal consensus” of shared beliefs in a systematic unity. And there must be some metaphysical systematic unity, because ultimately all truth (including science) must be part of the explanation of One God.

Recently, a number of theologians have suggested that the Trinity may provide the key to an inclusive theology of religions, and a new understanding of religious diversity. An expanded abstract version of the Trinity can function as a metaphysical "architectonic principle" to unlock the providential purpose and meaning of religious variety, in the portrayal of the multi-dimensional nature of God.

In the past, religious misunderstandings have caused immense grief, but civilization is rapidly approaching the point where the very survival of the world depends on overcoming anti-social religious conflicts, and the negative impacts of increasing population on the planet. The human race can no longer afford religious strife that divides people and disturbs urgent cooperation on mutual issues such as conservation and sharing of resources, combating climate change, stimulating healthy economic growth, etc.

Peace in the world requires peace among religions. Religious pluralism is a necessary paradigm shift whose time has come. Absent any better idea, the Trinity Absolute concept of One God in three phases or personae is the only adequate metaphysical vehicle necessary and sufficient for a real form of religious pluralism that is more than just lukewarm toleration and talking past one another.”

Samuel Stuart Maynes
www.religiouspluralism.ca

Offline Jonathan Gress

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,541
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2014, 08:12:43 PM »


Are you trying to provoke a response from LBK?

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,771
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2014, 10:17:46 PM »
I had not opened this thread because the title seemed just plain bizarre; I was not sure that it would a be a thread worth reading. Then I open the thread, and I find that it is worse than I expected. Sighhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,887
  • I am the Provisional Supreme Church Authority
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2014, 10:34:29 PM »


Are you trying to provoke a response from LBK?

No, I just thought this was the best counter to an "Abstract version of the Trinity". 

If I wanted to provoke LBK, I would admit having two copies of the "NT Trinity" icon and loving them (it's true).  ;) 
OC.NET is full of temptations, but in temptations we are enforced, remember about the thread "Temptation in the Desert: Rachel Weisz and the Undoing of Mor Ephrem". OC.NET helps in becoming unpassionate.

Quote
Oh you Greeks, you are all dumb!

An Athonite

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,630
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2014, 02:57:26 AM »
Quote
Thus, a deeper understanding of the Trinity might include a synthesis of all that God has revealed of himself, as contained in the wisdom of all the world’s major religions.

Nonsense.

Orthodox Christianity IS the repository of all that God has revealed about Himself, most starkly in His incarnation, God becoming Man. No other religion teaches this, and they would indeed balk at the very idea that God would stoop to become one of us.

Orthodoxy has no need of syncretistic pluralism.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2014, 02:57:44 AM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline primuspilus

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,990
  • Inserting personal quote here.
    • St. Gregory the Theologian Orthodox Church
  • Faith: Greek Orthodox (former WR)
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Boston
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2014, 07:52:51 AM »
Quote
Thus, a deeper understanding of the Trinity might include a synthesis of all that God has revealed of himself, as contained in the wisdom of all the world’s major religions.
Really? I'd be interested in hearing how this could be since a member of the Trinity said that He is the way, not a way, The Truth, and The Life.....

PP
« Last Edit: April 30, 2014, 07:53:20 AM by primuspilus »
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,204
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2014, 12:48:00 PM »
I have had similar thoughts. What I find is that non-Testament(s) based religions don't literally attempt to worship The Holy Trinity as personal God, but will arrive at aspects of it whether they realize it or not; aspects that even Testament based religions have not fully arrived at, if at all.


Yes, "Testament based religions" may have to adjust their thinking a bit in order to get up to speed, but I’m not making this stuff up. Clearly, God has manifested himself through several historic messengers. The diversity of world religions may very well be rooted in the diversity of the divine life itself. Thus, a deeper understanding of the Trinity might include a synthesis of all that God has revealed of himself, as contained in the wisdom of all the world’s major religions.

If you read the Preview on my website at www.religiouspluralism.ca, you will see that I am merely expanding on what is already inherent (but sometimes obscured or hidden) in the orthodox concept of the Trinity. Despite apparent differences, the underlying similarities among religions suggest the possibility that they may all be merely different facets of the same multi-dimensional reality. It is only common sense that the Trinity would reveal itself in three basic religious attitudes to the Absolute. Indeed, when we examine world religions, we see in the personalities they portray and the language they use, a reflection of one or other (or some combination) of the three divine psychological personae.

My thesis is that as the world becomes more and more religiously and culturally diverse, we will have no choice but to practice pluralism in order to avoid a “clash of civilizations” over what amounts to a possibly preventable and ultimately correctable misunderstanding. To quote from my Homepage, I maintain that:

“As religious communities and as growing nations, our futures are inextricably linked, being joined at the hip so to speak. We must develop a truly multi-cultural, multi-religious society in order to get along. Religious variety would be a wonderful source of cultural stimulus, if religious beliefs could be placed in some sort of comprehensive context which recognizes the differences, but integrates their best attitudes in one inclusive framework. Diversity can be healthy and something to be celebrated. Pluralism also has the virtue of being a universal moral worldview.

Mere toleration is too fragile a foundation for a world of religious differences in close proximity. It does nothing to unite people, and leaves in place the stereotypes and fears that underlie old patterns of division and violence. In the world in which we live today, our elitism and ignorance of one another will be increasingly costly. If the interactions of society are to be at all a rational process, some set of principles must motivate the general participation of religious groups in the oneness of the community, without hindering the maintenance of each group of its own identity.

There must be some form of creative pluralism or constructive interpretation that will allow all groups to agree to a “minimal consensus” of shared beliefs in a systematic unity. And there must be some metaphysical systematic unity, because ultimately all truth (including science) must be part of the explanation of One God.

Recently, a number of theologians have suggested that the Trinity may provide the key to an inclusive theology of religions, and a new understanding of religious diversity. An expanded abstract version of the Trinity can function as a metaphysical "architectonic principle" to unlock the providential purpose and meaning of religious variety, in the portrayal of the multi-dimensional nature of God.

In the past, religious misunderstandings have caused immense grief, but civilization is rapidly approaching the point where the very survival of the world depends on overcoming anti-social religious conflicts, and the negative impacts of increasing population on the planet. The human race can no longer afford religious strife that divides people and disturbs urgent cooperation on mutual issues such as conservation and sharing of resources, combating climate change, stimulating healthy economic growth, etc.

Peace in the world requires peace among religions. Religious pluralism is a necessary paradigm shift whose time has come. Absent any better idea, the Trinity Absolute concept of One God in three phases or personae is the only adequate metaphysical vehicle necessary and sufficient for a real form of religious pluralism that is more than just lukewarm toleration and talking past one another.”

Samuel Stuart Maynes
www.religiouspluralism.ca


You cannot please everybody.  You have to admit that there will be people who will be irreconcilably disagreed with truths.  True positive pluralism in a secular society is not to unify and reconcile beliefs, but to tolerate those who disagree and tolerate those who wish to evangelize or proselytize.  Even within "world Christianity", I seek that you may stop becoming Protestant and consider the Orthodox Church, where the fullness of Christianity lies.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,832
  • Excelsior
    • Archive of Our Own works
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2014, 01:18:04 PM »
If you are interested in some new ideas on religious pluralism and the Trinity, please check out my website at www.religiouspluralism.ca, and give me your thoughts on improving content and presentation.

We're not. Didn't ask, don't need to.
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works Warning: stories have mature content.

"Some people only feel good when they are praising the Lord." - Coptic bishop

Mt. 21:31 Jesus said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you."

"Our Lord will *never* stop loving us." - Fr. Michael P.

Offline Hamartolos

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 809
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2014, 03:12:09 PM »
$60 for this book?  Good luck man...

Offline DeniseDenise

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,799
  • This place holds to nothing....
  • Faith: Does it matter?
  • Jurisdiction: Unverifiable, so irrelevant
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2014, 03:14:25 PM »
As the classic phrase goes:


"No soliciting, We are too broke to buy anything, we know who we are voting for, We have found Jesus, Seriously, unless you are selling thin mints, Please Go Away!!!"
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Αριστοκλής

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 10,031
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2014, 06:46:15 PM »
$60 for this book?  Good luck man...

You are right. The $60 goes to the Church.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2014, 06:46:34 PM by Αριστοκλής »
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

Offline Samuel Stuart Maynes

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2014, 03:16:12 PM »
$60 for this book?  Good luck man...

I’ve included a 29-page Preview/Summary on my website www.religiouspluralims.ca, because when it comes to the book, even my friends say, “Don’t quit your day job.”

For Trinitarians, I would think that Genesis 1:26, where God says, “Let us make man in our image” might suggest the common sense notion that human religions probably reflect the threefold psychology of One God in Trinity expression. On the face of it, maybe God is telling us something about his multi-dimensional self, through the diversity of major religions, which can be seen to fall into three basic attitudes to the Absolute.
 
If you read my Preview you will see that in an abstract and enlarged concept of Trinity, all major religions can be included without denigrating or diluting any of them. As I say on my Homepage, religious pluralism is an attitude which rejects a focus on immaterial differences, and instead emphasizes those beliefs held in common. True religious pluralism goes beyond toleration and religious liberty, and gives respect to core principles rather than contradictions and marginal issues. Pluralism is the engagement not the abandonment of distinctions.

Pluralism leads to a less myopic view of one’s own religion. Other religions hold a piece of the puzzle called diversity. No single point of view is the complete truth. Religious variety would be a wonderful source of cultural stimulus, if religious beliefs could be placed in some sort of comprehensive context which recognizes the differences, but integrates their best attitudes in one inclusive framework.

In a rational pluralistic worldview, major religions may be said to reflect the psychology of One God in three basic personae, unified in spirit and universal in mind – analogous to the orthodox definition of the Trinity.  In fact, there is much evidence that the psychologies of world religions reflect the unity of One God in an absolute Trinity.   

We don’t have to invent anything, because it is readily acknowledged that Allah, Abba or Father (as Jesus called Him), and Brahma are religious representations of the Creator. But the Creator is the first Absolute person of the Trinity of the thrice-personal One God. So, in at least one respect, we can say that a large portion of humankind apparently worship the same God – the Deity Absolute Creator – reflected in three world religions, i.e.: Islam, Christianity, and Hinduism. This pluralistic worldview becomes inclusive if you consider that Buddhism, Confucian-Taoism, Shinto, and some other major religions seem to be variations on the third Absolute, while certain others, e.g. Sikh and Baha’i, suggest combinations.

Samuel Stuart Maynes
www.religiouspluralism.ca


Offline xOrthodox4Christx

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,322
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic Church
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2014, 03:33:33 PM »
$60 for this book?  Good luck man...

I’ve included a 29-page Preview/Summary on my website www.religiouspluralims.ca, because when it comes to the book, even my friends say, “Don’t quit your day job.”

For Trinitarians, I would think that Genesis 1:26, where God says, “Let us make man in our image” might suggest the common sense notion that human religions probably reflect the threefold psychology of One God in Trinity expression. On the face of it, maybe God is telling us something about his multi-dimensional self, through the diversity of major religions, which can be seen to fall into three basic attitudes to the Absolute.
 
If you read my Preview you will see that in an abstract and enlarged concept of Trinity, all major religions can be included without denigrating or diluting any of them. As I say on my Homepage, religious pluralism is an attitude which rejects a focus on immaterial differences, and instead emphasizes those beliefs held in common. True religious pluralism goes beyond toleration and religious liberty, and gives respect to core principles rather than contradictions and marginal issues. Pluralism is the engagement not the abandonment of distinctions.

Pluralism leads to a less myopic view of one’s own religion. Other religions hold a piece of the puzzle called diversity. No single point of view is the complete truth. Religious variety would be a wonderful source of cultural stimulus, if religious beliefs could be placed in some sort of comprehensive context which recognizes the differences, but integrates their best attitudes in one inclusive framework.

In a rational pluralistic worldview, major religions may be said to reflect the psychology of One God in three basic personae, unified in spirit and universal in mind – analogous to the orthodox definition of the Trinity.  In fact, there is much evidence that the psychologies of world religions reflect the unity of One God in an absolute Trinity.   

We don’t have to invent anything, because it is readily acknowledged that Allah, Abba or Father (as Jesus called Him), and Brahma are religious representations of the Creator. But the Creator is the first Absolute person of the Trinity of the thrice-personal One God. So, in at least one respect, we can say that a large portion of humankind apparently worship the same God – the Deity Absolute Creator – reflected in three world religions, i.e.: Islam, Christianity, and Hinduism. This pluralistic worldview becomes inclusive if you consider that Buddhism, Confucian-Taoism, Shinto, and some other major religions seem to be variations on the third Absolute, while certain others, e.g. Sikh and Baha’i, suggest combinations.
 
Samuel Stuart Maynes
www.religiouspluralism.ca

That's ridiculous. In Islam, Allah is not a Father to anyone. (c.f., Surat al-Ikhlas) In Judaism (via Psalm 82:6) and Christianity (via 2 Corinthians 6:18), God is our Father.

Islam also denies God is three. (c.f., Qur'an 5:73)
« Last Edit: May 03, 2014, 03:37:07 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline Samuel Stuart Maynes

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2014, 07:07:02 PM »
Islam also denies God is three. (c.f., Qur'an 5:73)[/quote]

I'm just trying to find common language we can all go along with. It seems that "Creator" is a term most religions can agree on for the Father, Allah, or Brahma. Existential Paradise "Deity Absolute Creator" is hopefully acceptable to translate the Creator into abstract Trinitarian terms.

I try to diffuse the problem Muslims have with the Trinity as best I can (see page 23 of my Preview), i.e.:

"In some English translations of the Qur’an, Allah seems to scoff at the Trinity, in effect denying his own creation. Thus, Muslims seem to be precluded from seeing themselves as the “adopted” children of God, as most Christians do. Nor are they connected to the Paramatman (Supersoul or Allsoul), as in Hinduism, also known as the Supreme Being in Christianity. Nor are they encouraged to recognize the significance of the Buddhist unconditioned Middle Path to Nirvana, and the Taoist synthesis of the Great Way of the yin and yang.

But this negative interpretation is based on a well-known misunderstanding. The ‘trinity’ dismissed by Muhammad in the Qur’an is not the Holy Christian Trinity, but the old Egyptian trinity of the divine Father/Mother/Son (updated as in Allah/Mary/Jesus) – just the kind of primitive and unfortunate carnal idolatry which Christians also reject. For evidence of this interpretation, see Qur’an 5:117 where Muhammad says, “Keep in mind, when Allah will ask Jesus son of Mary; didst thou say to the people: Take me and my mother for two Gods besides Allah?”

Indeed, the second person of One God – the Universe Absolute Allsoul or Supreme Being is perhaps best represented by Christ, whom many feel has earned the experiential sovereignty of the world, if not the whole universe. Muhammad and Buddha are close runners-up, and almost as superb in teachings and character, as Jesus. But Mary was not the Holy Ghost – third member of the Trinity – the Unconditioned Absolute Spirit, who is better explained, as well as better represented by Buddha and others.

It must be noted that the psychology and character of Muhammad may more exclusively reflect the first absolute person – Allah (Paradise Creator) – than does Jesus, who represents not only Him, but also us, as we are members of Christ’s Supreme Allsoul consciousness. Also, Lao Tzu’s synthesis of the opposites of yin and yang in the Tao or Great Way is as helpful an expression of the Third Absolute, as Buddha’s “unconditioned” cosmic consciousness of Nirvana or the Spirit of “All That Is, and is not” – the mysterious Holy Ghost.

In so far as these are all just perspectives on the same One God, reason authorizes us to regard either Muhammad, Jesus, Buddha and others (or all of them) as the Supreme Being of God, “who in a face to face meeting on the Day of Return (Judgment Day)… will enlighten us as to all that wherein we have differed,” as the Qur’an puts it.

Religious Pluralists are not making up names of Allah, but merely translating his name into the other major religious languages of humankind – Christian, Hindu, and others – which, together with Islam, correspond to the three metaphysical absolutes of creation, and the psychology of the human soul, among other fundamental things.”

Samuel Stuart Maynes
www.religiouspluralism.ca


Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,832
  • Excelsior
    • Archive of Our Own works
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2014, 07:13:21 PM »
We're Orthodox. What do you want? We didn't come to your board and try to sell things to you.
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works Warning: stories have mature content.

"Some people only feel good when they are praising the Lord." - Coptic bishop

Mt. 21:31 Jesus said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you."

"Our Lord will *never* stop loving us." - Fr. Michael P.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,887
  • I am the Provisional Supreme Church Authority
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2014, 10:36:43 PM »
We're Orthodox. What do you want? We didn't come to your board and try to sell things to you.

 :laugh:
OC.NET is full of temptations, but in temptations we are enforced, remember about the thread "Temptation in the Desert: Rachel Weisz and the Undoing of Mor Ephrem". OC.NET helps in becoming unpassionate.

Quote
Oh you Greeks, you are all dumb!

An Athonite

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,630
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2014, 07:03:49 AM »
Quote
I'm just trying to find common language we can all go along with.

Trouble is, Samuel, this attempt is utopian at its core. Utopia: from the Greek ou (without) and topos (place). In other words, Utopia does not exist. Neither can your grand unifying scheme succeed.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,204
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2014, 12:31:39 PM »
Samuel, I appreciate the fact that this is your words you're quoting.  But try to have a conversation with us, not just copy and paste your own words from the past.  Talk to us as if you don't have the book in front of you, you know face-to-face.

Your first problem to trying to find a solution through an unrealistic and false assumption:

Quote
If you read my Preview you will see that in an abstract and enlarged concept of Trinity, all major religions can be included without denigrating or diluting any of them.

There's so many problems with this.  First, the idea of an "abstract concept" turns the Trinity into philosophical statements, not a matter of prayerful experience.  Second, the idea of an "enlarged concept" has implications that the Trinity can be modified in its understanding, which technically means you can "change" the unchangeable God.  Third, "all major religions" will be denigrated by the shear simplicity of the contradictions it holds with Christianity.  Christ proclaimed that He is THE way, THE truth, THE life.  He did not say He's an avatar, a god among gods, a tail of an elephant in the scheme of religions, etc.  He proclaimed His exclusivity.  And if you love Christ, just as you love any spouse, exclusivity is necessary for truth to be tenable.

Quote
religious pluralism is an attitude which rejects a focus on immaterial differences, and instead emphasizes those beliefs held in common. True religious pluralism goes beyond toleration and religious liberty, and gives respect to core principles rather than contradictions and marginal issues. Pluralism is the engagement not the abandonment of distinctions.

Which is complete BS and means absolutely nothing.  You would make a good politician, because they perfect the art of embellishing into words the nothingness of their answers and solutions.  That's what your pluralism is, it's a waste of abstract nothingness.  Even you said so yourself.  You're trying to be abstract.  There's nothing concrete about being abstract.  Occam's Razor can just cut the crap and turn you into an atheist.  No need for pleasing everybody. 

It comes down to respectful disagreement.  If people are unable to engage in disagreements, Christ says to shake the dust off my feet in their direction, for Sodom and Gomorrah will have a better judgement than they!!!  He did not say "think of something abstract to maybe unite your beliefs with their's".  No, He said, "Dude, dust yo shoulder off, and bounce, because they don't deserve your time."

Get back to reality man.  You're turning Christianity into something Christ said it's not.  And Christ is practically the only one who proclaims to be the YHWH of the Old Testament in the flesh among all other religions.  Muhammed didn't, the expected Messiah in Judaism doesn't even hold to that ideal, Buddha didn't, Hindus have a different concept of what "gods" mean, and Chinese philosophies don't even care about the existence of supernatural deities.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Samuel Stuart Maynes

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2014, 02:46:39 PM »
Christ proclaimed that He is THE way, THE truth, THE life.

Jesus did not say that he is the ONLY way, the ONLY truth, the ONLY life. The Bible says that there is no way to the Father, except through the Son, and implies that Jesus Christ will be the Supreme Judge of all human beings on ‘Judgment Day.’ However, it would only be fair if Christ shares that judgment seat with Muhammad or the Mahdi in the case of Muslims, Indra or Krishna for Hindus, Gautama or Maitreya for Buddhists, Lao-Tzu for Taoists, and so forth. Some just recognition is required.

I think that Genesis 1:26 (in the beginning), where God says “Let us make man in our image,” suggests that later on he might also have said, “Let us help humans make their religions in our image.” It is only common sense that human religions probably reflect the threefold psychology of One God in Trinity expression. On the face of it, maybe God is telling us something about his multi-dimensional self, through the diversity of major religions, which can be seen to fall into three basic "attitudes to the Absolute," as I have shown on my website.

If the threefold human soul – personality/mind/spirit – is modeled on the Trinity, then individual humans may inevitably have an innate predisposition to worship any one, any combination, or all of the persons of the Trinity. Some toleration is required.

Christians believe that a spark of the divine spirit of God indwells all humankind, and this is essentially the same spirit that is in the Father, in the Son, and glorified in the Holy Spirit of Father and Son. The Qur’an agrees that “the spirit of Allah is closer to you than your jugular vein.” Hindus call it the “Purusha.” Buddhists refer to it as the “Unconditioned.” Neo-Confucians call it the “Tao.” Spirit is the glue that binds.”

I'm not trying to "change" God, but rather to enlarge our comprehension of him. You read my words, but you don't fully understand what I mean. Your mind hasn't caught up with the total implications of it yet. However, if you actually read my website, you will see that the wonderful multi-dimensional nature of One God is exalted not diminished in the Trinity expression given by the world's major religions taken altogether.

Samuel Stuart Maynes
www.religiouspluralism.ca


Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 18,612
  • You're my guardian angel hiding in the woods
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2014, 02:59:43 PM »
Christ proclaimed that He is THE way, THE truth, THE life.

Jesus did not say that he is the ONLY way, the ONLY truth, the ONLY life. The Bible says that there is no way to the Father, except through the Son, and implies that Jesus Christ will be the Supreme Judge of all human beings on ‘Judgment Day.’ However, it would only be fair if Christ shares that judgment seat with Muhammad or the Mahdi in the case of Muslims, Indra or Krishna for Hindus, Gautama or Maitreya for Buddhists, Lao-Tzu for Taoists, and so forth. Some just recognition is required.

I think that Genesis 1:26 (in the beginning), where God says “Let us make man in our image,” suggests that later on he might also have said, “Let us help humans make their religions in our image.” It is only common sense that human religions probably reflect the threefold psychology of One God in Trinity expression. On the face of it, maybe God is telling us something about his multi-dimensional self, through the diversity of major religions, which can be seen to fall into three basic "attitudes to the Absolute," as I have shown on my website.

If the threefold human soul – personality/mind/spirit – is modeled on the Trinity, then individual humans may inevitably have an innate predisposition to worship any one, any combination, or all of the persons of the Trinity. Some toleration is required.

Christians believe that a spark of the divine spirit of God indwells all humankind, and this is essentially the same spirit that is in the Father, in the Son, and glorified in the Holy Spirit of Father and Son. The Qur’an agrees that “the spirit of Allah is closer to you than your jugular vein.” Hindus call it the “Purusha.” Buddhists refer to it as the “Unconditioned.” Neo-Confucians call it the “Tao.” Spirit is the glue that binds.”

I'm not trying to "change" God, but rather to enlarge our comprehension of him. You read my words, but you don't fully understand what I mean. Your mind hasn't caught up with the total implications of it yet. However, if you actually read my website, you will see that the wonderful multi-dimensional nature of One God is exalted not diminished in the Trinity expression given by the world's major religions taken altogether.

Samuel Stuart Maynes
www.religiouspluralism.ca



"The" implies "only".  And why do you think "Some just recognition is required"?  Reading through your website, all that popped in my mind is:
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Jovan

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 524
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2014, 03:29:35 PM »
Quote
However, it would only be fair if Christ shares that judgment seat with Muhammad or the Mahdi in the case of Muslims, Indra or Krishna for Hindus, Gautama or Maitreya for Buddhists, Lao-Tzu for Taoists, and so forth. Some just recognition is required.

Contradiction nr1 my dear friend, none of those you mention even consider the truth that Christ will sit upon the judgement seat. The worldview and ideas you sit upon my friend are, if you study the different religions, so contradictory that I don´t know where to start. And I say that will all due respect and love for you.

THE TRUTH, THE WAY, THE LIFE is by definition exclusive, not all inclusive. And very important, our Christ is the way. A person, not an idea. Not a single of the other religions you can think of present a person as the Truth, Way and Life. Which means that their perception of truth is not even close to the Christians way of understanding Christ as the way, truth and life.

And once again, you might think that you enlarge God and make a more beautiful description of what people didn´t get before. Or you might be invoking tiny and worthless worldview from the 18-21th century which in the end has failed our world in tons of different ways. That makes God looks very useless, in my opinion.

Pray for me and forgive me, the sinner
“Belatedly I loved thee, O Beauty so ancient and so new, belatedly I loved thee. For see, thou wast within and I was without, and I sought thee out there."

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,204
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2014, 05:02:33 PM »
Samuel,

Is it possible to have a wrong view of God?
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline homedad76

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 873
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2014, 05:19:59 PM »
As a few others have alluded to the very idea that one could "adopt a new view" on anything regarding the nature of God only illustrates the primary flaw in pluralism: it mistakes religion for philosophy.  I can "adopt a view" that my cat reads Shakespeare and has the head of a frog but that flies in the face of reality.  As Orthodox (and future Orthodox) we believe that God is triune and that He has revealed Himself as such.  We accept this as an issue of fact, like 2+2 being 4.  It has been said that, at most, only 1 religion can be True.  While it would be nice if all of them were logic says otherwise.  They simply contradict each other in key areas of fact not merely philosophy.  God can not be 1 God, a Trinity, and a pantheon of Gods all at the same time.  You must take the view that one view is correct or none of them are.  Pluralism is at best a form of agnosticism and at worst atheistic.  You would be better off saying "I don't know what is true".

As far as it "only being fair" if Christ includes Buddha and Muhammed (and perhaps the Flying Spaghetti Monster and Krishna and all the gods of the Hindu pantheon, and heck thrown in Loki just to keep things lively) well Christ IS God, the rest of them are not.  Christ didn't say anything about being fair or recognizing rights.  ERROR HAS NO RIGHTS.
"However hard I try, I find it impossible to construct anything greater than these three words, 'Love one another' —only to the end, and without exceptions: then all is justified and life is illumined, whereas otherwise it is an abomination and a burden."

—Mother Maria of Paris

Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,832
  • Excelsior
    • Archive of Our Own works
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2014, 06:22:30 PM »
As a few others have alluded to the very idea that one could "adopt a new view" on anything regarding the nature of God only illustrates the primary flaw in pluralism: it mistakes religion for philosophy.  I can "adopt a view" that my cat reads Shakespeare and has the head of a frog but that flies in the face of reality.  As Orthodox (and future Orthodox) we believe that God is triune and that He has revealed Himself as such.  We accept this as an issue of fact, like 2+2 being 4.  It has been said that, at most, only 1 religion can be True.  While it would be nice if all of them were logic says otherwise.  They simply contradict each other in key areas of fact not merely philosophy.  God can not be 1 God, a Trinity, and a pantheon of Gods all at the same time.  You must take the view that one view is correct or none of them are.  Pluralism is at best a form of agnosticism and at worst atheistic.  You would be better off saying "I don't know what is true".

As far as it "only being fair" if Christ includes Buddha and Muhammed (and perhaps the Flying Spaghetti Monster and Krishna and all the gods of the Hindu pantheon, and heck thrown in Loki just to keep things lively) well Christ IS God, the rest of them are not.  Christ didn't say anything about being fair or recognizing rights.  ERROR HAS NO RIGHTS.

Well said. :)
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works Warning: stories have mature content.

"Some people only feel good when they are praising the Lord." - Coptic bishop

Mt. 21:31 Jesus said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you."

"Our Lord will *never* stop loving us." - Fr. Michael P.

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,204
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2014, 06:33:06 PM »
As a few others have alluded to the very idea that one could "adopt a new view" on anything regarding the nature of God only illustrates the primary flaw in pluralism: it mistakes religion for philosophy.  I can "adopt a view" that my cat reads Shakespeare and has the head of a frog but that flies in the face of reality.  As Orthodox (and future Orthodox) we believe that God is triune and that He has revealed Himself as such.  We accept this as an issue of fact, like 2+2 being 4.  It has been said that, at most, only 1 religion can be True.  While it would be nice if all of them were logic says otherwise.  They simply contradict each other in key areas of fact not merely philosophy.  God can not be 1 God, a Trinity, and a pantheon of Gods all at the same time.  You must take the view that one view is correct or none of them are.  Pluralism is at best a form of agnosticism and at worst atheistic.  You would be better off saying "I don't know what is true".

As far as it "only being fair" if Christ includes Buddha and Muhammed (and perhaps the Flying Spaghetti Monster and Krishna and all the gods of the Hindu pantheon, and heck thrown in Loki just to keep things lively) well Christ IS God, the rest of them are not.  Christ didn't say anything about being fair or recognizing rights.  ERROR HAS NO RIGHTS.

You're maliciously neglecting Horus, Isis, Osiris, Zeus, Athena, and Mina Soliman  8)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 06:33:26 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Laird

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 303
  • Faith: Baptist
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2014, 08:06:22 PM »
Christ proclaimed that He is THE way, THE truth, THE life.

Jesus did not say that he is the ONLY way, the ONLY truth, the ONLY life. The Bible says that there is no way to the Father, except through the Son, and implies that Jesus Christ will be the Supreme Judge of all human beings on ‘Judgment Day.’ However, it would only be fair if Christ shares that judgment seat with Muhammad or the Mahdi in the case of Muslims, Indra or Krishna for Hindus, Gautama or Maitreya for Buddhists, Lao-Tzu for Taoists, and so forth. Some just recognition is required.

No one comes to the Father except through Jesus. He is the only way. You are distorting Scripture when you claim it says there are other ways to God, apart from Christ. All other gods are false. The Christian God is the only true God. And no, Christ will not share the Judgment seat with any false gods. In Scripture, the Father gives the Judgment seat to Christ and to Christ only.

Quote
I'm not trying to "change" God, but rather to enlarge our comprehension of him. You read my words, but you don't fully understand what I mean. Your mind hasn't caught up with the total implications of it yet. However, if you actually read my website, you will see that the wonderful multi-dimensional nature of One God is exalted not diminished in the Trinity expression given by the world's major religions taken altogether.

Samuel Stuart Maynes
www.religiouspluralism.ca

You are changing God. God has already revealed Himself, yet you are unsatisfied with what God has said about Himself and wish to force distorted views upon Him to appease those who follow false religions.

It is you who doesn't fully understand the implications of what you are doing to God. You are misrepresenting Him and doing Him no favours.
"Do not deceive yourself with idle hopes that in the world to come you will find life if you have not tried to find it in this present world." - Theophanis the Monk

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2014, 09:43:39 PM »
Quote
However, it would only be fair if Christ shares that judgment seat with Muhammad or the Mahdi in the case of Muslims, Indra or Krishna for Hindus, Gautama or Maitreya for Buddhists, Lao-Tzu for Taoists, and so forth. Some just recognition is required.
Oh dear.  :o

Compromising beliefs so they become palatable to everyone means that your beliefs don't really mean anything.
God bless!

Offline DeniseDenise

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,799
  • This place holds to nothing....
  • Faith: Does it matter?
  • Jurisdiction: Unverifiable, so irrelevant
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2014, 09:53:11 PM »
As a few others have alluded to the very idea that one could "adopt a new view" on anything regarding the nature of God only illustrates the primary flaw in pluralism: it mistakes religion for philosophy.  I can "adopt a view" that my cat reads Shakespeare and has the head of a frog but that flies in the face of reality.  As Orthodox (and future Orthodox) we believe that God is triune and that He has revealed Himself as such.  We accept this as an issue of fact, like 2+2 being 4.  It has been said that, at most, only 1 religion can be True.  While it would be nice if all of them were logic says otherwise.  They simply contradict each other in key areas of fact not merely philosophy.  God can not be 1 God, a Trinity, and a pantheon of Gods all at the same time.  You must take the view that one view is correct or none of them are.  Pluralism is at best a form of agnosticism and at worst atheistic.  You would be better off saying "I don't know what is true".

As far as it "only being fair" if Christ includes Buddha and Muhammed (and perhaps the Flying Spaghetti Monster and Krishna and all the gods of the Hindu pantheon, and heck thrown in Loki just to keep things lively) well Christ IS God, the rest of them are not.  Christ didn't say anything about being fair or recognizing rights.  ERROR HAS NO RIGHTS.

You're maliciously neglecting Horus, Isis, Osiris, Zeus, Athena, and Mina Soliman  8)

all hail Mina the great! 
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Samuel Stuart Maynes

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #36 on: May 08, 2014, 01:56:01 PM »
As Orthodox (and future Orthodox) we believe that God is triune and that He has revealed Himself as such.

I believe in One God manifest in the Trinity, united in spirit, universal in mind, and three in personality. I wish there were many long explanatory passages of support for the Trinity in the Bible, but unfortunately there are not, as the Jehovah’s Witnesses so mockingly point out. We have to admit that our rather limited understanding of the Trinity is based mostly on the writings of the early Church Fathers, who greatly expanded and embroidered on the passing mention of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost in the Scriptures.

Many sincere Trinitarians admit that the Trinity is difficult and maybe even impossible to understand. Let’s face it, for most people the Trinity is incomprehensible, but this is not a virtue. The majority of people need some coherent explanation or description before they can really believe in the Trinity. In the meantime, Muslims and Jews will continue to think that we believe in three Gods, until we explain the concept more clearly.

As Aquinas said, “We know that God is, but we don’t know what he is.” Nevertheless, we must try to articulate our faith in the highest and most comprehensive formulations that we can construct, based on the foundations we've got. The unity of One God in the Trinity Absolute formula is a systematically coherent worldview capable of embracing both science and religion, providing a “minimal consensus” of all major faiths, and furnishing a much needed “metaphysical blueprint for peace.”

Orthodox Christians sometimes tend to focus on the discrepancies they see between their beliefs and other religions. However, many differences can be shown to be superficial, and most contradictions can be explained in terms of minor misunderstandings. The love, devotion, and sincerity with which other major religions praise God (or the “Unconditioned” in the case of Buddhists) deserves respect, and cries out to be incorporated in the Trinity, which can accommodate them so well, as I have shown.

I notice that nobody is commenting on the central arguments in my last posting, i.e.:

1) The likelihood that God has helped humans create their major religions “in Our image.”

2) The fact that the threefold human soul, and the three basic religious “attitudes to the Absolute,” fits so well with the concept of the Trinity (with due allowance for perichoresis).

3) The fact that all major religions agree with Paul when he said, “Know ye not that the spirit of God dwelleth in you?” (I Cor. 3:16).

Samuel Stuart Maynes
www.religiouspluralism.ca


Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,204
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #37 on: May 08, 2014, 05:18:38 PM »
As Orthodox (and future Orthodox) we believe that God is triune and that He has revealed Himself as such.

I believe in One God manifest in the Trinity, united in spirit, universal in mind, and three in personality. I wish there were many long explanatory passages of support for the Trinity in the Bible, but unfortunately there are not, as the Jehovah’s Witnesses so mockingly point out. We have to admit that our rather limited understanding of the Trinity is based mostly on the writings of the early Church Fathers, who greatly expanded and embroidered on the passing mention of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost in the Scriptures.

Many sincere Trinitarians admit that the Trinity is difficult and maybe even impossible to understand. Let’s face it, for most people the Trinity is incomprehensible, but this is not a virtue. The majority of people need some coherent explanation or description before they can really believe in the Trinity. In the meantime, Muslims and Jews will continue to think that we believe in three Gods, until we explain the concept more clearly.

As Aquinas said, “We know that God is, but we don’t know what he is.” Nevertheless, we must try to articulate our faith in the highest and most comprehensive formulations that we can construct, based on the foundations we've got. The unity of One God in the Trinity Absolute formula is a systematically coherent worldview capable of embracing both science and religion, providing a “minimal consensus” of all major faiths, and furnishing a much needed “metaphysical blueprint for peace.”

Orthodox Christians sometimes tend to focus on the discrepancies they see between their beliefs and other religions. However, many differences can be shown to be superficial, and most contradictions can be explained in terms of minor misunderstandings. The love, devotion, and sincerity with which other major religions praise God (or the “Unconditioned” in the case of Buddhists) deserves respect, and cries out to be incorporated in the Trinity, which can accommodate them so well, as I have shown.

Samuel, you need to differentiate between evangelical techniques of looking for similarities and salvific pluralism of all religions.  If I understand you correctly, while your wording is vague here, it is clear to me that one can get to an understanding where you have a couple of options here.

First, no one denies that there are aspects of truth in other religions.  In fact, one can use these aspects and use them for evangelical purposes.  Orthodox evangelists need to be mindful of discrepancies, but we also (hopefully) know what it means to be "fishers of men", where we bate other religions with something they know and bring them into a Christian concept.

However, you are concerned with giving credence to the truth of other religions as if they are a viable part of salvation.  They are not.  Neither do some of them think the same way for us.  In Islam, no matter how you try to slice it, even if you can pull out Trinitarian aHadith or Quranic verses, you will still get Muslims who will be adamant that there is no Trinity.

Your other problem is you are beginning with a Christian framework and then try to say that all other religions can be possibly Christian.  This is nothing but deluding.  One can pull out Christian concepts from other religions, but you cannot turn one concept into the whole of the other religion and say that "Muhamed and Jesus and Buddha share the judgment seat".  That is completely insincere on your part.  Furthermore, why start with a Christian framework?  Why not start with an Islamic framework and just use Islamic theology to try to bring Christianity into a Seballian concept of Trinity?

If Aquinas saw your writing, he would write a refutation against you.

Your other problem:

Quote
1) The likelihood that God has helped humans create their major religions “in Our image.”

Terrible speculation on your part.  God did not create religions, He created humans.  And humans create religions.  It's like saying a car or a Babylonian garden was made in the image of God.  That is complete nonsense.  A religion is an expression of belief in God.

Do you believe there is a possibility that one can have a false understanding of God?

Quote
3) The fact that all major religions agree with Paul when he said, “Know ye not that the spirit of God dwelleth in you?” (I Cor. 3:16).

But not all religions agree on what that means.

The Bible is clear that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct and worshipped and "Monotheistic".  The Church fathers expanded on these concepts to keep consistent these ideas.  Arians for instance developed a "polytheistic" system.  Sebellians developed an indistinct system.  Muslims developed a system where Jesus is not worshipped (at the very least).

So, my friend, you're completely wasting your time trying to think of a way to allow fullness of truth to exist in all religions.  Some truths do exist, but you cannot use this to the extent of ignoring the differences and then say preposterous and inane and self-contradictory statements like:

Quote
Jesus did not say that he is the ONLY way, the ONLY truth, the ONLY life. The Bible says that there is no way to the Father, except through the Son, and implies that Jesus Christ will be the Supreme Judge of all human beings on ‘Judgment Day.’ However, it would only be fair if Christ shares that judgment seat with Muhammad or the Mahdi in the case of Muslims, Indra or Krishna for Hindus, Gautama or Maitreya for Buddhists, Lao-Tzu for Taoists, and so forth.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 05:20:28 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Samuel Stuart Maynes

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2014, 04:29:30 PM »
First, no one denies that there are aspects of truth in other religions.  In fact, one can use these aspects and use them for evangelical purposes... where we bate other religions with something they know and bring them into a Christian concept.

Evangelists are being disingenuous and insincere if their only purpose in acknowledging some small truth in other religions is to seduce their members into conversion. I'm not "trying to say that all other religions can possibly be Christian," but merely pointing out that an abstract version of the Trinity can incorporate more than just Christianity.

On page two of my Homepage, I mention that, "In answer to the question: 'Why Trinity?' Raimundo Panikkar (1918-2010), the founder of religious pluralism in the Trinity, pointed out that 'the meeting of religions cannot take place on neutral territory or in a ‘no man’s land’ because it is scarcely possible to speak of these subjects from outside one or another tradition, for it is these very traditions that have the determining terminology.' Trinity Absolute provides the most readily-available all-inclusive language for speculating on systematic unity in metaphysical matters of religion. This abstract understanding is of the utmost urgency, for a truly democratic settlement of this world into a universal civilization, constructed on the highest ideas or concepts of all our basic religions and cultures – our common world heritage.

These 'divine ideas' are individualized, personalized and conserved in the concept of the three fundamental personae of One God, reflected in the world’s three basic underlying religious attitudes to the Absolute. Taken in their over-lapping teachings, they articulate the members of the Trinity in an absolutely elegant and truly beautiful portrait." 

I didn't say that God created religions, but rather that he (or his angels) probably helped humans create their religions in his threefold image.

I'm not saying that the fullness of truth exists in all religions, but merely that all major religions emphasize one or other (or some combination) of the triune truth of One God in Trinity manifestation.

Religious pluralism is an attitude which rejects a focus on immaterial differences, and instead emphasizes those beliefs held in common. But true religious pluralism goes beyond toleration and religious liberty, and gives respect to core principles rather than contradictions and marginal issues.

Samuel Stuart Maynes
www.religiouspluralism.ca

Offline Jovan

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 524
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2014, 05:37:39 PM »
Quote
On page two of my Homepage, I mention that, "In answer to the question: 'Why Trinity?

I appreciate your effort to grasp some idea which seems lost to many other christians in this world.

But have you tried to, instead of having your homepage as a reference point and tradition which interprets scripture, to look into the Church which has been preaching,living and spread the gospel in the same manner it was given to the apostles?

Pray for me and forgive me, the sinner
“Belatedly I loved thee, O Beauty so ancient and so new, belatedly I loved thee. For see, thou wast within and I was without, and I sought thee out there."

Offline Jovan

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 524
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #40 on: May 12, 2014, 05:44:02 PM »
Quote
But true religious pluralism goes beyond toleration and religious liberty, and gives respect to core principles rather than contradictions and marginal issues.

Is that a true pluralistic statement which includes those who does not hold the the idea of pluralism? Your way of understanding a truth statement ultimately excludes in the end, contradictory.

Truth by definition is exclusive and always will be. That definitely regards the Christian faith, and you need to talk to some more muftis about your research to see what they have to say about it.

“Belatedly I loved thee, O Beauty so ancient and so new, belatedly I loved thee. For see, thou wast within and I was without, and I sought thee out there."

Offline Jovan

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 524
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2014, 05:49:39 PM »
And I give you credit if you want to say that we can see the work and effects of a Triune God wherever we go in this world. But to say that because we see these effects of the Triune God who created the whole universe, therefore Muhammad will partake in the judgement seat. That leap is but false and has no ground in either scripture, logic and no other religion.

I don´t mean to be rude, please forgive me, but I really pray that you will realize how far off you´re taking the wisdom of God and his revelation to us.

Pray for me and forgive me, the sinner
“Belatedly I loved thee, O Beauty so ancient and so new, belatedly I loved thee. For see, thou wast within and I was without, and I sought thee out there."

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,204
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2014, 06:56:22 PM »
First, no one denies that there are aspects of truth in other religions.  In fact, one can use these aspects and use them for evangelical purposes... where we bate other religions with something they know and bring them into a Christian concept.

Evangelists are being disingenuous and insincere if their only purpose in acknowledging some small truth in other religions is to seduce their members into conversion. I'm not "trying to say that all other religions can possibly be Christian," but merely pointing out that an abstract version of the Trinity can incorporate more than just Christianity.

There's nothing disingenuous and insincere about being "fishers of men".  St. Paul provides for us a beautiful example of how to be a fisher of men, by providing a bate about the discussion of the "unknown God":

Quote from: Acts 17 NKJV
16 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was provoked within him when he saw that the city was given over to idols. 17 Therefore he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and with the Gentile worshipers, and in the marketplace daily with those who happened to be there. 18 Then certain Epicurean and Stoic philosophers encountered him. And some said, “What does this babbler want to say?”

Others said, “He seems to be a proclaimer of foreign gods,” because he preached to them Jesus and the resurrection.

19 And they took him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, “May we know what this new doctrine is of which you speak? 20 For you are bringing some strange things to our ears. Therefore we want to know what these things mean.” 21 For all the Athenians and the foreigners who were there spent their time in nothing else but either to tell or to hear some new thing.

22 Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; 23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:

TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.

Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 “God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said, “We will hear you again on this matter.” 33 So Paul departed from among them. 34 However, some men joined him and believed, among them Dionysius the Areopagite, a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

St. Paul bated them with something they are familiar with and proceeded to teach them where they have erred, finally asking them to repent, and he was able to catch a few fish for the glory of God, one of whom became the first bishop of Athens, St. Dionysius the Areopagite.  Therefore, if you are calling anyone ingenuous and insincere, you are calling St. Paul this.

And certainly, when St. Paul called the times in which religions split "times of ignorance", it does not sound like God made approval of angels/men to distort and create different religions, and wishes people to repent and come to the Truth of Christianity.

On page two of my Homepage, I mention that, "In answer to the question: 'Why Trinity?' Raimundo Panikkar (1918-2010), the founder of religious pluralism in the Trinity, pointed out that 'the meeting of religions cannot take place on neutral territory or in a ‘no man’s land’ because it is scarcely possible to speak of these subjects from outside one or another tradition, for it is these very traditions that have the determining terminology.' Trinity Absolute provides the most readily-available all-inclusive language for speculating on systematic unity in metaphysical matters of religion. This abstract understanding is of the utmost urgency, for a truly democratic settlement of this world into a universal civilization, constructed on the highest ideas or concepts of all our basic religions and cultures – our common world heritage.

These 'divine ideas' are individualized, personalized and conserved in the concept of the three fundamental personae of One God, reflected in the world’s three basic underlying religious attitudes to the Absolute. Taken in their over-lapping teachings, they articulate the members of the Trinity in an absolutely elegant and truly beautiful portrait."  

I didn't say that God created religions, but rather that he (or his angels) probably helped humans create their religions in his threefold image.

I'm not saying that the fullness of truth exists in all religions, but merely that all major religions emphasize one or other (or some combination) of the triune truth of One God in Trinity manifestation.

Religious pluralism is an attitude which rejects a focus on immaterial differences, and instead emphasizes those beliefs held in common. But true religious pluralism goes beyond toleration and religious liberty, and gives respect to core principles rather than contradictions and marginal issues.

Okay...let me take a stab at your background.  You have here you write you are a "Protestant".  I'm assuming you also were Protestant of the Evangelical brand since you said something along the effect of "Evangelists are being disingenuous".  You probably experienced many debates with them, similar to some of the criticism we give you.

Let me tell you that as a Protestant, it is very normal for you to become Pluralistic in your thinking while trying to remain faithful to the truth in Christian beliefs, because you have no Church.  Some of you form "non-denominational", to try to be "pluralistic in denomination" but "exclusivist in belief in Christ".  So as a Protestant, you are inclined to feel that there are some "immaterial differences" not worth dwelling on.

You came to the Orthodox Christian board.  Perhaps a faithful Evangelical who never tires of debate to refute the sacraments and the clerical structure of the Church, Scriptures would have been a valid modicum, but using Scriptures with you will not be enough.  You are a thinker, a philosopher, not primarily a Christian in the exclusivist sense.  The sad state of divisions not just in all religions, but also in Christianity has probably lead you to have liberal thought in theology by conceiving of a loving Triune God who would never judge anyone in the world for their wrong beliefs, but appreciates that they do hold some truths about Him and would hold to it that they are venerated for the sake of salvation in the world, probably sending angels and/or men to make good moral religion that has some truth in His Triune character.

However, here in Orthodox Christianity, you will not find anyone here even giving Protestant Christianity a chance.  They are treated as outside the Church, no differently than any other religion.  Religion and Church is inseparable in Orthodox Christianity.  Perhaps at best, Protestants can be called "catechumens" (as a forum member mentioned in another thread), but at worst can be deviated so far from the Church, it is questionable whether to continue to call them Christian or not.  In Orthodox Christianity, there is no salvation without the Church.  Therefore, there is no insignificant difference in treatment of Protestantism and non-Christian religions.  And I think you should start with talking about Protestant Christianity before you talk about other religions.  You will continue to post in vain your ideas that have no bearing at all in any form to attract anyone to your ideas.  You must first convince us how Protestant Christians also hold truth with what we would consider "true Christianity".  Once you achieve that, then you can discuss religious pluralism.  But since we reject even Protestants (and even Roman Catholicism for most of us, although we may hold a great deal of respect to and successful coexistence/co-marital relations with them), you waste your time trying to discuss other religions when you have no solid ground in agreement with our Orthodoxy to begin with.  The strongest form of exclusivism is in Orthodox Christians, and your posts is like cutting an mile thick iron rod with a tiny stringy thread.

So, perhaps you should put on your Protestant thinking cap for a second.  Maybe you're Unitarian.  Maybe, you're non-denominational.  Whatever the case is, you need to address that we have an exclusivist Church, let alone a religion.

God bless.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 07:00:02 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline primuspilus

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,990
  • Inserting personal quote here.
    • St. Gregory the Theologian Orthodox Church
  • Faith: Greek Orthodox (former WR)
  • Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Boston
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #43 on: May 13, 2014, 07:45:27 AM »
I can't believe this thread has gone on this long. It was just a commercial for another nonsense website. Looks like we all bit.

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,204
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Abstract version of the Trinity
« Reply #44 on: May 13, 2014, 02:38:28 PM »
I can't believe this thread has gone on this long. It was just a commercial for another nonsense website. Looks like we all bit.

PP

Well, the original poster came out of the shadows of his blog and is actually having a conversation. That's gotta count for something.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.