Author Topic: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?  (Read 1752 times)

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Offline Regnare

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Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« on: April 21, 2014, 06:26:30 PM »
I was at an Orthodox Holy Saturday Divine Liturgy, and though the service was lovely, I was surprised to see that, having celebrated the whole service up to that point before the Epitaphios, the priest went up into the altar at the Great Entrance and then carried the Gifts back out into the sanctuary, placed them on the Epitaphios, and said the whole Anaphora there as well. In short, the entire Vesperal Liturgy was performed using the Epitaphios instead of the Holy Table. Is this normal? Am I just being paranoid about innovation?

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2014, 06:37:57 PM »
Christ is Risen!

Some altars do not have a place to store the Epitaphios.  It was OK for the priest to use the Epitaphios as an altar.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 06:38:22 PM by SolEX01 »

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2014, 06:44:13 PM »
In Greece, it's the norm, and not through any space concerns.
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Offline Pravoslavbob

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2014, 06:48:43 PM »
We did it like this in my parish for quite a few years until our current priest informed us that, IIRC, the bishop was worried about little kids knocking over the Holy Gifts and general disorder around the Gifts etc. and that the practice would come to a stop.  I have to admit I sort of miss it.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 06:54:19 PM by Pravoslavbob »
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Offline Punch

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2014, 07:55:21 PM »
Never have seen that before.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2014, 08:03:38 PM »
At my church, The epitaphios icon is removed from the bier after the Orthros of holy Saturday (Friday night) and is placed on the altar where it remains until Ascension eve. The rest of the liturgy including the anaphora is celebrated still on the altar as usual. I wonder if it is just a space concern because there is nothing wrong or errant about using the epitaphios as an altar since that's the standard practice for te next 40 days.
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Offline Basil 320

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2014, 08:09:58 PM »
At my church, The epitaphios icon is removed from the bier after the Orthros of holy Saturday (Friday night) and is placed on the altar where it remains until Ascension eve. The rest of the liturgy including the anaphora is celebrated still on the altar as usual. I wonder if it is just a space concern because there is nothing wrong or errant about using the epitaphios as an altar since that's the standard practice for te next 40 days.

Yes, the Epitaphios is placed on the Holy Table following the Procession and return into the church, during the Holy and Great Saturday Orthros (Matins), where it remains for the ensuing 40 days, or I've also seen the entire Kovouklion (Bier) placed on top of the Holy Table.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 08:11:53 PM by Basil 320 »
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Offline Regnare

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2014, 08:13:50 PM »
Definitely not a space concern. I should clarify: the Epitaphios was on its bier outside the iconostasis, in the centre of the church, like this:

That right there in the middle is where the whole Vesperal Liturgy was celebrated. The Holy Table was entirely free and could have been used as normal. The Epitaphios was not moved to the Holy Table until Pascha, since for a reason I can't remember we didn't do the procession during Holy Saturday Matins. I'm particularly interested to know if this is Slavic practice (although thanks for letting me know about the Greeks, Arachne), since we were in a Russian parish.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2014, 09:53:59 PM »
Definitely not a space concern. I should clarify: the Epitaphios was on its bier outside the iconostasis, in the centre of the church, like this:

That right there in the middle is where the whole Vesperal Liturgy was celebrated. The Holy Table was entirely free and could have been used as normal. The Epitaphios was not moved to the Holy Table until Pascha, since for a reason I can't remember we didn't do the procession during Holy Saturday Matins. I'm particularly interested to know if this is Slavic practice (although thanks for letting me know about the Greeks, Arachne), since we were in a Russian parish.
I've seen it done several times.  I'm known a number of bishops dead set against it.  All were Russian tradition.

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Offline Regnare

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2014, 10:07:04 PM »
I've seen it done several times.  I'm known a number of bishops dead set against it.  All were Russian tradition.
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2014, 10:42:05 PM »
I've seen it done several times.  I'm known a number of bishops dead set against it.  All were Russian tradition.
The Orthodox Church, ladies and gentlemen!

Yeah. So?
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Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2014, 10:48:23 PM »
Definitely unusual, because the altar or antimins have relics. I wonder if they used an antimins with relics. If they did use an antimins, then the service was legitimate, albeit odd. If not, there would be some issues with the ruling bishop.

Offline Regnare

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2014, 11:01:12 PM »
There was an antimins spread over top of the Epitaphios, yes. It was folded up under the Gospel Book until after the Gospel, at which point the Gospel was taken up and placed on the Holy Table, and the antimins unfolded.
Yeah. So?
It wasn't intended to be a complaint. It just seemed like a delightfully Orthodox response to make, and I found it quite helpful.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2014, 10:11:14 AM »
I've seen it done several times.  I'm known a number of bishops dead set against it.  All were Russian tradition.
The Orthodox Church, ladies and gentlemen!

Time out from our internecine Slavic fighting.

This must be a Greek tradition. Never seen it.

Now back to our regularly scheduled bickering.

Thank you.

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2014, 11:44:12 AM »
Never have seen that before.


Nor I.
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Offline OrthoMEX

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2014, 06:05:50 PM »
I go to a Greek church and they have never done it like that but the retired  OCA priest that also serves there said they would do it like that in the OCA parish he used to serve at.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 06:06:34 PM by OrthoMEX »

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2014, 06:10:08 PM »
I've seen it done several times.  I'm known a number of bishops dead set against it.  All were Russian tradition.
The Orthodox Church, ladies and gentlemen!

Time out from our internecine Slavic fighting.

This must be a Greek tradition. Never seen it.

Now back to our regularly scheduled bickering.

Thank you.

If it's a Greek tradition, I've not seen it in any Greek church, including in Greece, in my fifty years in Orthodoxy. I've not seen it in any Russian church, either.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2014, 06:51:16 PM »
I've seen it done several times.  I'm known a number of bishops dead set against it.  All were Russian tradition.
The Orthodox Church, ladies and gentlemen!

Time out from our internecine Slavic fighting.

This must be a Greek tradition. Never seen it.

Now back to our regularly scheduled bickering.

Thank you.

If it's a Greek tradition, I've not seen it in any Greek church, including in Greece, in my fifty years in Orthodoxy. I've not seen it in any Russian church, either.

As I think about this, how could it be Greek?

There is a fundamental difference between Slavic and Byzantine practice with respect to the time when the epitaphios is placed on the altar. In the Slavic practice, the priest goes to the tomb prior to the Midnight Matins of Pascha and removes the epitaphios and carries it through the Holy Doors and places it on the altar table where it remains for forty days until the day of Ascension. In the Byzantine/Greek practice, the epitaphios has already been removed during the Lamentations Orthros on Holy Friday evening.

Am I missing something? Is there a third practice?

Offline Basil 320

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2014, 08:31:18 PM »
Yes. I've seen a Greek practice (obscure, perhaps) of placing the entire Kovouklion (Bier) with the Epitaphios on the Holy Table (Altar) following the Procession and return into the church of the Holy and Great Saturday Orthros (Matins).
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2014, 09:30:54 PM »
I've seen it done several times.  I'm known a number of bishops dead set against it.  All were Russian tradition.
The Orthodox Church, ladies and gentlemen!

Time out from our internecine Slavic fighting.

This must be a Greek tradition. Never seen it.

Now back to our regularly scheduled bickering.

Thank you.

If it's a Greek tradition, I've not seen it in any Greek church, including in Greece, in my fifty years in Orthodoxy. I've not seen it in any Russian church, either.

As I think about this, how could it be Greek?

There is a fundamental difference between Slavic and Byzantine practice with respect to the time when the epitaphios is placed on the altar. In the Slavic practice, the priest goes to the tomb prior to the Midnight Matins of Pascha and removes the epitaphios and carries it through the Holy Doors and places it on the altar table where it remains for forty days until the day of Ascension. In the Byzantine/Greek practice, the epitaphios has already been removed during the Lamentations Orthros on Holy Friday evening.

Am I missing something? Is there a third practice?
In the OCA I've seen it taken up during the Nineth Ode "Do not lament me O my Mother".
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline Altar Server

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2014, 09:52:24 AM »
I've seen it done several times.  I'm known a number of bishops dead set against it.  All were Russian tradition.
The Orthodox Church, ladies and gentlemen!

Time out from our internecine Slavic fighting.

This must be a Greek tradition. Never seen it.

Now back to our regularly scheduled bickering.

Thank you.

If it's a Greek tradition, I've not seen it in any Greek church, including in Greece, in my fifty years in Orthodoxy. I've not seen it in any Russian church, either.

As I think about this, how could it be Greek?

There is a fundamental difference between Slavic and Byzantine practice with respect to the time when the epitaphios is placed on the altar. In the Slavic practice, the priest goes to the tomb prior to the Midnight Matins of Pascha and removes the epitaphios and carries it through the Holy Doors and places it on the altar table where it remains for forty days until the day of Ascension. In the Byzantine/Greek practice, the epitaphios has already been removed during the Lamentations Orthros on Holy Friday evening.

Am I missing something? Is there a third practice?
In the OCA I've seen it taken up during the Nineth Ode "Do not lament me O my Mother".

This is when it's done at my parish(OCA)
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Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2014, 12:57:04 AM »
I was at an Orthodox Holy Saturday Divine Liturgy, and though the service was lovely, I was surprised to see that, having celebrated the whole service up to that point before the Epitaphios, the priest went up into the altar at the Great Entrance and then carried the Gifts back out into the sanctuary, placed them on the Epitaphios, and said the whole Anaphora there as well. In short, the entire Vesperal Liturgy was performed using the Epitaphios instead of the Holy Table. Is this normal? Am I just being paranoid about innovation?

I have heard of Serbians who serve the Divine Liturgy on the Epithaphios while it is still in the Bier. In Antiochian tradition, the Epithaphios is placed on the Holy Table after the Procession during the Lamentations service and remains on the Holy Table until the Fest of the Ascension. The Antimision is unfolded on top of the Epithaphios when the Divine Liturgy is served. I put the Epithaphios under the glass on top of the Holy Table so that I have a level surface and because my Epithaphios is heavily embroidered and do not risk harming the Epithaphios.

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Offline Punch

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2014, 05:11:28 AM »
I serve in a Serbian Church and none of the priests that I know would do this. I have never seen a liturgy in a Serbian or Russian Church building (that was in one piece) served anywhere but the altar. I would be interested in knowing what service book or typikon those performing the practice in the OP are using.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline Regnare

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2014, 12:02:08 PM »
I serve in a Serbian Church and none of the priests that I know would do this. I have never seen a liturgy in a Serbian or Russian Church building (that was in one piece) served anywhere but the altar. I would be interested in knowing what service book or typikon those performing the practice in the OP are using.
It was an OCA church. That's all I know; I hope it helps.

Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2014, 01:44:37 PM »
I serve in a Serbian Church and none of the priests that I know would do this. I have never seen a liturgy in a Serbian or Russian Church building (that was in one piece) served anywhere but the altar. I would be interested in knowing what service book or typikon those performing the practice in the OP are using.

The Priest who served the Saturday morning Divine Liturgy on the Bier had come from the Serbian tradition, but was serving in an Antiochian Church.  Since that is not our tradition, I just assumed that it was a Serbian custom.

Fr. John W. Morrris

Offline Punch

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2014, 07:29:05 PM »
I serve in a Serbian Church and none of the priests that I know would do this. I have never seen a liturgy in a Serbian or Russian Church building (that was in one piece) served anywhere but the altar. I would be interested in knowing what service book or typikon those performing the practice in the OP are using.

The Priest who served the Saturday morning Divine Liturgy on the Bier had come from the Serbian tradition, but was serving in an Antiochian Church.  Since that is not our tradition, I just assumed that it was a Serbian custom.

Fr. John W. Morrris

Interesting.  The service book that we used in the my Serbian parish for the last three Holy Weeks is the Antiochian book.  It has been a lot easier than the mix of Slavonic and ROCOR and HTM English translations that we used before.  Some of the rubrics are different than we are used to, and the translation is not the same as the one's we were using, but it is a pretty good service book overall.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2014, 09:04:09 PM »
I was at an Orthodox Holy Saturday Divine Liturgy, and though the service was lovely, I was surprised to see that, having celebrated the whole service up to that point before the Epitaphios, the priest went up into the altar at the Great Entrance and then carried the Gifts back out into the sanctuary, placed them on the Epitaphios, and said the whole Anaphora there as well. In short, the entire Vesperal Liturgy was performed using the Epitaphios instead of the Holy Table. Is this normal? Am I just being paranoid about innovation?

I'm coming to this thread late, but I know I've heard of this practice.  I've never seen it, though my hunch is that it's a "Slavic" practice, and not necessarily widespread, but enough not to be unheard of.  In fact, I believe there's a picture of this from this year's Paschal celebrations on the OCA website (or else they have a really small and oddly shaped altar):



My recollection is that this practice may be discouraged, if not prohibited. 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Offline Punch

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2014, 09:07:40 PM »
OCA would explain it.  Aren't they a bunch of converted Greek Catholics out East?  Possibly a "U" practice.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2014, 09:21:48 PM »
OCA would explain it.  Aren't they a bunch of converted Greek Catholics out East?  Possibly a "U" practice.

Maybe these Greeks (GOA) also used to be Catholic. 





Quote
Fr. George offered a "teaching" Service of the Proskomide before Saturday's Vesperal Liturgy. All the faithful prayed for their living and deceased relatives and friends and offered their names so he could commemorate them during the service. Afterwards, he offered the Vesperal Liturgy at the Kouvouklion at the Solea, with the Epitaphios placed inside, in accordance with the early church practice of offering Holy Saturday morning's services at the "Tomb of Christ."

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"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2014, 09:43:52 PM »
OCA would explain it.  Aren't they a bunch of converted Greek Catholics out East?  Possibly a "U" practice.

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2014, 10:01:50 PM »


Quote
Bishop Demetrios Kantzavelos of Mokissos and other clergy gathered around the Epitaphios in Divine Liturgy on Holy Saturday at Holy Anargyroi Greek Orthodox Church in Rochester, Minnesota, United States

Source

His Grace's Wiki bio doesn't say whether he used to be Catholic or not. 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Bartholomew, 270th Archbishop of Constantinople-New Rome and Ecumenical Patriarch, is spiritual leader to 300 million Orthodox Christians throughout the world.

Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2014, 10:09:52 PM »
I was at an Orthodox Holy Saturday Divine Liturgy, and though the service was lovely, I was surprised to see that, having celebrated the whole service up to that point before the Epitaphios, the priest went up into the altar at the Great Entrance and then carried the Gifts back out into the sanctuary, placed them on the Epitaphios, and said the whole Anaphora there as well. In short, the entire Vesperal Liturgy was performed using the Epitaphios instead of the Holy Table. Is this normal? Am I just being paranoid about innovation?

I'm coming to this thread late, but I know I've heard of this practice.  I've never seen it, though my hunch is that it's a "Slavic" practice, and not necessarily widespread, but enough not to be unheard of.  In fact, I believe there's a picture of this from this year's Paschal celebrations on the OCA website (or else they have a really small and oddly shaped altar):



My recollection is that this practice may be discouraged, if not prohibited. 

The picture looks like they are serving on the Bier. The Russians do not have a canopy over the tomb like we do. If I tried to serve a Liturgy on the Bier, I know that I would hit my head. Besides, as I mentioned earlier, in Antiochian practice the Epitaphios is placed on the Holy Table after the procession at the end of the Lamentations Service and stays there until Ascension.

Fr. John W. Morris

Offline LBK

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2014, 10:11:38 PM »

His Grace's Wiki bio doesn't say whether he used to be Catholic or not. 

With a name like Demetrios Kantzavelos, I somehow doubt it.  ;)
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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2014, 10:15:57 PM »


Quote
Bishop Demetrios Kantzavelos of Mokissos and other clergy gathered around the Epitaphios in Divine Liturgy on Holy Saturday at Holy Anargyroi Greek Orthodox Church in Rochester, Minnesota, United States

Source

His Grace's Wiki bio doesn't say whether he used to be Catholic or not. 


You are my favorite person.  Just in case I hadn't mentioned that lately!   ;D

Offline LBK

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2014, 10:36:10 PM »


Quote
Bishop Demetrios Kantzavelos of Mokissos and other clergy gathered around the Epitaphios in Divine Liturgy on Holy Saturday at Holy Anargyroi Greek Orthodox Church in Rochester, Minnesota, United States

Source

His Grace's Wiki bio doesn't say whether he used to be Catholic or not. 


You are my favorite person.  Just in case I hadn't mentioned that lately!   ;D

Many a time I've called Mor a treasure here.  :laugh:
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2014, 10:38:43 PM »
The picture looks like they are serving on the Bier. The Russians do not have a canopy over the tomb like we do. If I tried to serve a Liturgy on the Bier, I know that I would hit my head. Besides, as I mentioned earlier, in Antiochian practice the Epitaphios is placed on the Holy Table after the procession at the end of the Lamentations Service and stays there until Ascension.

It's an interesting practice.   

In our tradition, we don't have an Epitaphios on Good Friday.  We bring out a cross and after a lengthy office, we offer incense before it, prostrate before it, elevate it as on 14 Sept, process with it, and then we "bury" it: we wash it, anoint it with oils, spices, perfumes, wrap it in linen, and "bury" it in a particular way (the rubrics refer to the example of the prophet Ezekiel in Ez 4.4-8), usually in a special compartment under the altar.  Then the "tomb" is sealed and lamps are kept burning before it. 

Until Pascha, when the cross is "resurrected", that altar cannot be used for anything (the original tomb, after all, was sealed and guarded to prevent tampering), so the Saturday Liturgy must be served at a side altar (if present), or else an altar must be set up outside the sanctuary in the nave.  The idea of serving the Liturgy on the tomb just doesn't work liturgically for us. 

If you don't mind getting a stiff neck, you can see some of these rites beginning here;) 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Bartholomew, 270th Archbishop of Constantinople-New Rome and Ecumenical Patriarch, is spiritual leader to 300 million Orthodox Christians throughout the world.

Offline Punch

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2014, 12:41:43 AM »
OCA would explain it.  Aren't they a bunch of converted Greek Catholics out East?  Possibly a "U" practice.

Maybe these Greeks (GOA) also used to be Catholic. 





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Fr. George offered a "teaching" Service of the Proskomide before Saturday's Vesperal Liturgy. All the faithful prayed for their living and deceased relatives and friends and offered their names so he could commemorate them during the service. Afterwards, he offered the Vesperal Liturgy at the Kouvouklion at the Solea, with the Epitaphios placed inside, in accordance with the early church practice of offering Holy Saturday morning's services at the "Tomb of Christ."

Source

Or Baptist, or Pentecostal, or God know what.  Looks like a mission, and when I hear "in accordance with the early church practice" instead of "in accordance with the Typikon", it is usually coming from Protestants.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2014, 12:47:23 AM »
OCA would explain it.  Aren't they a bunch of converted Greek Catholics out East?  Possibly a "U" practice.

Maybe these Greeks (GOA) also used to be Catholic. 





Quote
Fr. George offered a "teaching" Service of the Proskomide before Saturday's Vesperal Liturgy. All the faithful prayed for their living and deceased relatives and friends and offered their names so he could commemorate them during the service. Afterwards, he offered the Vesperal Liturgy at the Kouvouklion at the Solea, with the Epitaphios placed inside, in accordance with the early church practice of offering Holy Saturday morning's services at the "Tomb of Christ."

Source

Or Baptist, or Pentecostal, or God know what.  Looks like a mission, and when I hear "in accordance with the early church practice" instead of "in accordance with the Typikon", it is usually coming from Protestants.

Martin Luther didn't perform liturgies "at the tomb of Christ."

Offline LBK

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2014, 12:48:56 AM »
Quote
Looks like a mission,

No mission I've ever had anything to do with has accoutrements as fancy as those in the photos: inlay enamel on the chalice and paten, a full-sized kovouklion, mural icons beginning to be painted, and vestments that don't look like hand-me-downs.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 12:49:16 AM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2014, 12:53:18 AM »
Quote
Looks like a mission,

No mission I've ever had anything to do with has accoutrements as fancy as those in the photos: inlay enamel on the chalice and paten, a full-sized kovouklion, mural icons beginning to be painted, and vestments that don't look like hand-me-downs.


and just because (if) it is a mission....that honestly has no bearing on how 'protestant' you might decide to make it seem.

You are speculating....

Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2014, 01:02:15 AM »


Quote
Bishop Demetrios Kantzavelos of Mokissos and other clergy gathered around the Epitaphios in Divine Liturgy on Holy Saturday at Holy Anargyroi Greek Orthodox Church in Rochester, Minnesota, United States

Source

His Grace's Wiki bio doesn't say whether he used to be Catholic or not. 

I frankly doubt that His Grace used to be Catholic or that he did not follow an acceptable Greek Orthodox practice. However, I graduated from Holy Cross the Greek Orthodox seminary and never was taught this practice. Our Antiochian rubrics are quite specific. The Epithaphios is placed on the Holy Table after the procession after the Lamentations on Holy Friday evening and remains there until Ascension The Holy Saturday Divine Liturgy and every other Liturgy before Ascension is celebrated on the Holy Table as usual, but on top of the Epihaphios.

Offline methodius

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2014, 01:03:09 AM »
Excuse me?
 "used to be" Catholics?
 maybe I mistook something, but isn't the Orthodox Church the original Catholic Church?

Seems to me we still say so near the end of the Creed....
kyrie eleison

Offline frjohnmorris

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2014, 01:13:08 AM »
Excuse me?
 "used to be" Catholics?
 maybe I mistook something, but isn't the Orthodox Church the original Catholic Church?

Seems to me we still say so near the end of the Creed....

I apologize. I should have written Roman Catholic. You are absolutely right and I was wrong. The Eastern Orthodox Church considers herself to be the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Fr. John W. Morris

Offline methodius

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2014, 01:18:29 AM »
Thanks Father; I tend to be a 'nit-picker' at times.
My apologies for stating the obvious.
Christ is Risen!
kyrie eleison

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2014, 01:25:33 AM »
I think Father was merely requoting the original implication.....

someone had implied....that the only people who would do such a thing were *gasp* former Catholics...they of the name that shall not be named here...


Mor refuted that with another picture of the same practice at somewhere that could -not- have been such a church....


thats where the 'catholic' confusion started....