OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 28, 2014, 02:55:02 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Is this normal for Holy Saturday?  (Read 1054 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Regnare
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Inquiring into Orthodoxy
Posts: 243



« on: April 21, 2014, 06:26:30 PM »

I was at an Orthodox Holy Saturday Divine Liturgy, and though the service was lovely, I was surprised to see that, having celebrated the whole service up to that point before the Epitaphios, the priest went up into the altar at the Great Entrance and then carried the Gifts back out into the sanctuary, placed them on the Epitaphios, and said the whole Anaphora there as well. In short, the entire Vesperal Liturgy was performed using the Epitaphios instead of the Holy Table. Is this normal? Am I just being paranoid about innovation?
Logged

"To believe [the Paraclete] when you wish it, and then disbelieve him when you wish it, is to believe nobody but yourself." --St. Augustine, Contra Faustum XXXII.16
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,004


WWW
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2014, 06:37:57 PM »

Christ is Risen!

Some altars do not have a place to store the Epitaphios.  It was OK for the priest to use the Epitaphios as an altar.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 06:38:22 PM by SolEX01 » Logged
Arachne
Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese of the British Isles and Ireland
Posts: 3,980


Tending Brigid's flame


« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2014, 06:44:13 PM »

In Greece, it's the norm, and not through any space concerns.
Logged

'When you live your path all the time, you end up with both more path and more time.'~Venecia Rauls

Blog ~ Bookshelf ~ Jukebox
Pravoslavbob
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 3,180


St. Sisoes the Great


« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2014, 06:48:43 PM »

We did it like this in my parish for quite a few years until our current priest informed us that, IIRC, the bishop was worried about little kids knocking over the Holy Gifts and general disorder around the Gifts etc. and that the practice would come to a stop.  I have to admit I sort of miss it.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 06:54:19 PM by Pravoslavbob » Logged

Religion is a disease, and Orthodoxy is its cure.
Punch
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,098



« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2014, 07:55:21 PM »

Never have seen that before.
Logged

Orthodox only because of God and His Russians.
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek by desire; Antiochian by necessity
Posts: 5,818



« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2014, 08:03:38 PM »

At my church, The epitaphios icon is removed from the bier after the Orthros of holy Saturday (Friday night) and is placed on the altar where it remains until Ascension eve. The rest of the liturgy including the anaphora is celebrated still on the altar as usual. I wonder if it is just a space concern because there is nothing wrong or errant about using the epitaphios as an altar since that's the standard practice for te next 40 days.
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
Basil 320
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,987



« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2014, 08:09:58 PM »

At my church, The epitaphios icon is removed from the bier after the Orthros of holy Saturday (Friday night) and is placed on the altar where it remains until Ascension eve. The rest of the liturgy including the anaphora is celebrated still on the altar as usual. I wonder if it is just a space concern because there is nothing wrong or errant about using the epitaphios as an altar since that's the standard practice for te next 40 days.

Yes, the Epitaphios is placed on the Holy Table following the Procession and return into the church, during the Holy and Great Saturday Orthros (Matins), where it remains for the ensuing 40 days, or I've also seen the entire Kovouklion (Bier) placed on top of the Holy Table.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2014, 08:11:53 PM by Basil 320 » Logged

"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
Regnare
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Inquiring into Orthodoxy
Posts: 243



« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2014, 08:13:50 PM »

Definitely not a space concern. I should clarify: the Epitaphios was on its bier outside the iconostasis, in the centre of the church, like this:

That right there in the middle is where the whole Vesperal Liturgy was celebrated. The Holy Table was entirely free and could have been used as normal. The Epitaphios was not moved to the Holy Table until Pascha, since for a reason I can't remember we didn't do the procession during Holy Saturday Matins. I'm particularly interested to know if this is Slavic practice (although thanks for letting me know about the Greeks, Arachne), since we were in a Russian parish.
Logged

"To believe [the Paraclete] when you wish it, and then disbelieve him when you wish it, is to believe nobody but yourself." --St. Augustine, Contra Faustum XXXII.16
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2014, 09:53:59 PM »

Definitely not a space concern. I should clarify: the Epitaphios was on its bier outside the iconostasis, in the centre of the church, like this:

That right there in the middle is where the whole Vesperal Liturgy was celebrated. The Holy Table was entirely free and could have been used as normal. The Epitaphios was not moved to the Holy Table until Pascha, since for a reason I can't remember we didn't do the procession during Holy Saturday Matins. I'm particularly interested to know if this is Slavic practice (although thanks for letting me know about the Greeks, Arachne), since we were in a Russian parish.
I've seen it done several times.  I'm known a number of bishops dead set against it.  All were Russian tradition.

In Jerusalem DL is routinely celebrated in the tomb, the remnant of the stone covering the entrance serving as the altar, the place where Christ lay serving as the Proskemedia table.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Regnare
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Inquiring into Orthodoxy
Posts: 243



« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2014, 10:07:04 PM »

I've seen it done several times.  I'm known a number of bishops dead set against it.  All were Russian tradition.
The Orthodox Church, ladies and gentlemen!
Logged

"To believe [the Paraclete] when you wish it, and then disbelieve him when you wish it, is to believe nobody but yourself." --St. Augustine, Contra Faustum XXXII.16
scamandrius
Crusher of Secrets; House Lannister
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek by desire; Antiochian by necessity
Posts: 5,818



« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2014, 10:42:05 PM »

I've seen it done several times.  I'm known a number of bishops dead set against it.  All were Russian tradition.
The Orthodox Church, ladies and gentlemen!

Yeah. So?
Logged

I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene
ilyazhito
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 847



« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2014, 10:48:23 PM »

Definitely unusual, because the altar or antimins have relics. I wonder if they used an antimins with relics. If they did use an antimins, then the service was legitimate, albeit odd. If not, there would be some issues with the ruling bishop.
Logged
Regnare
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Inquiring into Orthodoxy
Posts: 243



« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2014, 11:01:12 PM »

There was an antimins spread over top of the Epitaphios, yes. It was folded up under the Gospel Book until after the Gospel, at which point the Gospel was taken up and placed on the Holy Table, and the antimins unfolded.
Yeah. So?
It wasn't intended to be a complaint. It just seemed like a delightfully Orthodox response to make, and I found it quite helpful.
Logged

"To believe [the Paraclete] when you wish it, and then disbelieve him when you wish it, is to believe nobody but yourself." --St. Augustine, Contra Faustum XXXII.16
podkarpatska
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,020


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2014, 10:11:14 AM »

I've seen it done several times.  I'm known a number of bishops dead set against it.  All were Russian tradition.
The Orthodox Church, ladies and gentlemen!

Time out from our internecine Slavic fighting.

This must be a Greek tradition. Never seen it.

Now back to our regularly scheduled bickering.

Thank you.
Logged
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2014, 11:44:12 AM »

Never have seen that before.


Nor I.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
OrthoMEX
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox christian
Jurisdiction: GOARCH Metropolis of Detroit
Posts: 12


Save the Whales


« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2014, 06:05:50 PM »

I go to a Greek church and they have never done it like that but the retired  OCA priest that also serves there said they would do it like that in the OCA parish he used to serve at.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2014, 06:06:34 PM by OrthoMEX » Logged
LBK
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,194


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2014, 06:10:08 PM »

I've seen it done several times.  I'm known a number of bishops dead set against it.  All were Russian tradition.
The Orthodox Church, ladies and gentlemen!

Time out from our internecine Slavic fighting.

This must be a Greek tradition. Never seen it.

Now back to our regularly scheduled bickering.

Thank you.

If it's a Greek tradition, I've not seen it in any Greek church, including in Greece, in my fifty years in Orthodoxy. I've not seen it in any Russian church, either.
Logged
podkarpatska
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,020


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2014, 06:51:16 PM »

I've seen it done several times.  I'm known a number of bishops dead set against it.  All were Russian tradition.
The Orthodox Church, ladies and gentlemen!

Time out from our internecine Slavic fighting.

This must be a Greek tradition. Never seen it.

Now back to our regularly scheduled bickering.

Thank you.

If it's a Greek tradition, I've not seen it in any Greek church, including in Greece, in my fifty years in Orthodoxy. I've not seen it in any Russian church, either.

As I think about this, how could it be Greek?

There is a fundamental difference between Slavic and Byzantine practice with respect to the time when the epitaphios is placed on the altar. In the Slavic practice, the priest goes to the tomb prior to the Midnight Matins of Pascha and removes the epitaphios and carries it through the Holy Doors and places it on the altar table where it remains for forty days until the day of Ascension. In the Byzantine/Greek practice, the epitaphios has already been removed during the Lamentations Orthros on Holy Friday evening.

Am I missing something? Is there a third practice?
Logged
Basil 320
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,987



« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2014, 08:31:18 PM »

Yes. I've seen a Greek practice (obscure, perhaps) of placing the entire Kovouklion (Bier) with the Epitaphios on the Holy Table (Altar) following the Procession and return into the church of the Holy and Great Saturday Orthros (Matins).
Logged

"...Strengthen the Orthodox Community..."
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2014, 09:30:54 PM »

I've seen it done several times.  I'm known a number of bishops dead set against it.  All were Russian tradition.
The Orthodox Church, ladies and gentlemen!

Time out from our internecine Slavic fighting.

This must be a Greek tradition. Never seen it.

Now back to our regularly scheduled bickering.

Thank you.

If it's a Greek tradition, I've not seen it in any Greek church, including in Greece, in my fifty years in Orthodoxy. I've not seen it in any Russian church, either.

As I think about this, how could it be Greek?

There is a fundamental difference between Slavic and Byzantine practice with respect to the time when the epitaphios is placed on the altar. In the Slavic practice, the priest goes to the tomb prior to the Midnight Matins of Pascha and removes the epitaphios and carries it through the Holy Doors and places it on the altar table where it remains for forty days until the day of Ascension. In the Byzantine/Greek practice, the epitaphios has already been removed during the Lamentations Orthros on Holy Friday evening.

Am I missing something? Is there a third practice?
In the OCA I've seen it taken up during the Nineth Ode "Do not lament me O my Mother".
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Altar Server
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian(as of 12/18/10)
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 834


Christos Anesti!


« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2014, 09:52:24 AM »

I've seen it done several times.  I'm known a number of bishops dead set against it.  All were Russian tradition.
The Orthodox Church, ladies and gentlemen!

Time out from our internecine Slavic fighting.

This must be a Greek tradition. Never seen it.

Now back to our regularly scheduled bickering.

Thank you.

If it's a Greek tradition, I've not seen it in any Greek church, including in Greece, in my fifty years in Orthodoxy. I've not seen it in any Russian church, either.

As I think about this, how could it be Greek?

There is a fundamental difference between Slavic and Byzantine practice with respect to the time when the epitaphios is placed on the altar. In the Slavic practice, the priest goes to the tomb prior to the Midnight Matins of Pascha and removes the epitaphios and carries it through the Holy Doors and places it on the altar table where it remains for forty days until the day of Ascension. In the Byzantine/Greek practice, the epitaphios has already been removed during the Lamentations Orthros on Holy Friday evening.

Am I missing something? Is there a third practice?
In the OCA I've seen it taken up during the Nineth Ode "Do not lament me O my Mother".

This is when it's done at my parish(OCA)
Logged

"Come ye take light from The Light that is never overtaken by night and glorify the Christ, who is risen from the dead"
frjohnmorris
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 1,177


« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2014, 12:57:04 AM »

I was at an Orthodox Holy Saturday Divine Liturgy, and though the service was lovely, I was surprised to see that, having celebrated the whole service up to that point before the Epitaphios, the priest went up into the altar at the Great Entrance and then carried the Gifts back out into the sanctuary, placed them on the Epitaphios, and said the whole Anaphora there as well. In short, the entire Vesperal Liturgy was performed using the Epitaphios instead of the Holy Table. Is this normal? Am I just being paranoid about innovation?

I have heard of Serbians who serve the Divine Liturgy on the Epithaphios while it is still in the Bier. In Antiochian tradition, the Epithaphios is placed on the Holy Table after the Procession during the Lamentations service and remains on the Holy Table until the Fest of the Ascension. The Antimision is unfolded on top of the Epithaphios when the Divine Liturgy is served. I put the Epithaphios under the glass on top of the Holy Table so that I have a level surface and because my Epithaphios is heavily embroidered and do not risk harming the Epithaphios.

Fr. John W. Morris
Logged
Punch
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,098



« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2014, 05:11:28 AM »

I serve in a Serbian Church and none of the priests that I know would do this. I have never seen a liturgy in a Serbian or Russian Church building (that was in one piece) served anywhere but the altar. I would be interested in knowing what service book or typikon those performing the practice in the OP are using.
Logged

Orthodox only because of God and His Russians.
Regnare
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Inquiring into Orthodoxy
Posts: 243



« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2014, 12:02:08 PM »

I serve in a Serbian Church and none of the priests that I know would do this. I have never seen a liturgy in a Serbian or Russian Church building (that was in one piece) served anywhere but the altar. I would be interested in knowing what service book or typikon those performing the practice in the OP are using.
It was an OCA church. That's all I know; I hope it helps.
Logged

"To believe [the Paraclete] when you wish it, and then disbelieve him when you wish it, is to believe nobody but yourself." --St. Augustine, Contra Faustum XXXII.16
frjohnmorris
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 1,177


« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2014, 01:44:37 PM »

I serve in a Serbian Church and none of the priests that I know would do this. I have never seen a liturgy in a Serbian or Russian Church building (that was in one piece) served anywhere but the altar. I would be interested in knowing what service book or typikon those performing the practice in the OP are using.

The Priest who served the Saturday morning Divine Liturgy on the Bier had come from the Serbian tradition, but was serving in an Antiochian Church.  Since that is not our tradition, I just assumed that it was a Serbian custom.

Fr. John W. Morrris
Logged
Punch
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,098



« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2014, 07:29:05 PM »

I serve in a Serbian Church and none of the priests that I know would do this. I have never seen a liturgy in a Serbian or Russian Church building (that was in one piece) served anywhere but the altar. I would be interested in knowing what service book or typikon those performing the practice in the OP are using.

The Priest who served the Saturday morning Divine Liturgy on the Bier had come from the Serbian tradition, but was serving in an Antiochian Church.  Since that is not our tradition, I just assumed that it was a Serbian custom.

Fr. John W. Morrris

Interesting.  The service book that we used in the my Serbian parish for the last three Holy Weeks is the Antiochian book.  It has been a lot easier than the mix of Slavonic and ROCOR and HTM English translations that we used before.  Some of the rubrics are different than we are used to, and the translation is not the same as the one's we were using, but it is a pretty good service book overall.
Logged

Orthodox only because of God and His Russians.
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 15,368


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2014, 09:04:09 PM »

I was at an Orthodox Holy Saturday Divine Liturgy, and though the service was lovely, I was surprised to see that, having celebrated the whole service up to that point before the Epitaphios, the priest went up into the altar at the Great Entrance and then carried the Gifts back out into the sanctuary, placed them on the Epitaphios, and said the whole Anaphora there as well. In short, the entire Vesperal Liturgy was performed using the Epitaphios instead of the Holy Table. Is this normal? Am I just being paranoid about innovation?

I'm coming to this thread late, but I know I've heard of this practice.  I've never seen it, though my hunch is that it's a "Slavic" practice, and not necessarily widespread, but enough not to be unheard of.  In fact, I believe there's a picture of this from this year's Paschal celebrations on the OCA website (or else they have a really small and oddly shaped altar):



My recollection is that this practice may be discouraged, if not prohibited. 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Punch
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,098



« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2014, 09:07:40 PM »

OCA would explain it.  Aren't they a bunch of converted Greek Catholics out East?  Possibly a "U" practice.
Logged

Orthodox only because of God and His Russians.
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 15,368


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2014, 09:21:48 PM »

OCA would explain it.  Aren't they a bunch of converted Greek Catholics out East?  Possibly a "U" practice.

Maybe these Greeks (GOA) also used to be Catholic. 





Quote
Fr. George offered a "teaching" Service of the Proskomide before Saturday's Vesperal Liturgy. All the faithful prayed for their living and deceased relatives and friends and offered their names so he could commemorate them during the service. Afterwards, he offered the Vesperal Liturgy at the Kouvouklion at the Solea, with the Epitaphios placed inside, in accordance with the early church practice of offering Holy Saturday morning's services at the "Tomb of Christ."

Source
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,524



« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2014, 09:43:52 PM »

OCA would explain it.  Aren't they a bunch of converted Greek Catholics out East?  Possibly a "U" practice.

Don't pull your punches!
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 15,368


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2014, 10:01:50 PM »



Quote
Bishop Demetrios Kantzavelos of Mokissos and other clergy gathered around the Epitaphios in Divine Liturgy on Holy Saturday at Holy Anargyroi Greek Orthodox Church in Rochester, Minnesota, United States

Source

His Grace's Wiki bio doesn't say whether he used to be Catholic or not. 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
frjohnmorris
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 1,177


« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2014, 10:09:52 PM »

I was at an Orthodox Holy Saturday Divine Liturgy, and though the service was lovely, I was surprised to see that, having celebrated the whole service up to that point before the Epitaphios, the priest went up into the altar at the Great Entrance and then carried the Gifts back out into the sanctuary, placed them on the Epitaphios, and said the whole Anaphora there as well. In short, the entire Vesperal Liturgy was performed using the Epitaphios instead of the Holy Table. Is this normal? Am I just being paranoid about innovation?

I'm coming to this thread late, but I know I've heard of this practice.  I've never seen it, though my hunch is that it's a "Slavic" practice, and not necessarily widespread, but enough not to be unheard of.  In fact, I believe there's a picture of this from this year's Paschal celebrations on the OCA website (or else they have a really small and oddly shaped altar):



My recollection is that this practice may be discouraged, if not prohibited. 

The picture looks like they are serving on the Bier. The Russians do not have a canopy over the tomb like we do. If I tried to serve a Liturgy on the Bier, I know that I would hit my head. Besides, as I mentioned earlier, in Antiochian practice the Epitaphios is placed on the Holy Table after the procession at the end of the Lamentations Service and stays there until Ascension.

Fr. John W. Morris
Logged
LBK
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,194


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2014, 10:11:38 PM »


His Grace's Wiki bio doesn't say whether he used to be Catholic or not. 

With a name like Demetrios Kantzavelos, I somehow doubt it.  Wink
Logged
DeniseDenise
Tiredness personified
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catechumen no more!
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,406



« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2014, 10:15:57 PM »



Quote
Bishop Demetrios Kantzavelos of Mokissos and other clergy gathered around the Epitaphios in Divine Liturgy on Holy Saturday at Holy Anargyroi Greek Orthodox Church in Rochester, Minnesota, United States

Source

His Grace's Wiki bio doesn't say whether he used to be Catholic or not. 


You are my favorite person.  Just in case I hadn't mentioned that lately!   Grin
Logged

Please secure your own oxygen mask before assisting other passengers.
LBK
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,194


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2014, 10:36:10 PM »



Quote
Bishop Demetrios Kantzavelos of Mokissos and other clergy gathered around the Epitaphios in Divine Liturgy on Holy Saturday at Holy Anargyroi Greek Orthodox Church in Rochester, Minnesota, United States

Source

His Grace's Wiki bio doesn't say whether he used to be Catholic or not. 


You are my favorite person.  Just in case I hadn't mentioned that lately!   Grin

Many a time I've called Mor a treasure here.  laugh
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 15,368


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2014, 10:38:43 PM »

The picture looks like they are serving on the Bier. The Russians do not have a canopy over the tomb like we do. If I tried to serve a Liturgy on the Bier, I know that I would hit my head. Besides, as I mentioned earlier, in Antiochian practice the Epitaphios is placed on the Holy Table after the procession at the end of the Lamentations Service and stays there until Ascension.

It's an interesting practice.   

In our tradition, we don't have an Epitaphios on Good Friday.  We bring out a cross and after a lengthy office, we offer incense before it, prostrate before it, elevate it as on 14 Sept, process with it, and then we "bury" it: we wash it, anoint it with oils, spices, perfumes, wrap it in linen, and "bury" it in a particular way (the rubrics refer to the example of the prophet Ezekiel in Ez 4.4-8), usually in a special compartment under the altar.  Then the "tomb" is sealed and lamps are kept burning before it. 

Until Pascha, when the cross is "resurrected", that altar cannot be used for anything (the original tomb, after all, was sealed and guarded to prevent tampering), so the Saturday Liturgy must be served at a side altar (if present), or else an altar must be set up outside the sanctuary in the nave.  The idea of serving the Liturgy on the tomb just doesn't work liturgically for us. 

If you don't mind getting a stiff neck, you can see some of these rites beginning hereWink 
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Punch
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,098



« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2014, 12:41:43 AM »

OCA would explain it.  Aren't they a bunch of converted Greek Catholics out East?  Possibly a "U" practice.

Maybe these Greeks (GOA) also used to be Catholic. 





Quote
Fr. George offered a "teaching" Service of the Proskomide before Saturday's Vesperal Liturgy. All the faithful prayed for their living and deceased relatives and friends and offered their names so he could commemorate them during the service. Afterwards, he offered the Vesperal Liturgy at the Kouvouklion at the Solea, with the Epitaphios placed inside, in accordance with the early church practice of offering Holy Saturday morning's services at the "Tomb of Christ."

Source

Or Baptist, or Pentecostal, or God know what.  Looks like a mission, and when I hear "in accordance with the early church practice" instead of "in accordance with the Typikon", it is usually coming from Protestants.
Logged

Orthodox only because of God and His Russians.
SolEX01
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, Holy Metropolis of New Jersey
Posts: 11,004


WWW
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2014, 12:47:23 AM »

OCA would explain it.  Aren't they a bunch of converted Greek Catholics out East?  Possibly a "U" practice.

Maybe these Greeks (GOA) also used to be Catholic. 





Quote
Fr. George offered a "teaching" Service of the Proskomide before Saturday's Vesperal Liturgy. All the faithful prayed for their living and deceased relatives and friends and offered their names so he could commemorate them during the service. Afterwards, he offered the Vesperal Liturgy at the Kouvouklion at the Solea, with the Epitaphios placed inside, in accordance with the early church practice of offering Holy Saturday morning's services at the "Tomb of Christ."

Source

Or Baptist, or Pentecostal, or God know what.  Looks like a mission, and when I hear "in accordance with the early church practice" instead of "in accordance with the Typikon", it is usually coming from Protestants.

Martin Luther didn't perform liturgies "at the tomb of Christ."
Logged
LBK
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,194


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2014, 12:48:56 AM »

Quote
Looks like a mission,

No mission I've ever had anything to do with has accoutrements as fancy as those in the photos: inlay enamel on the chalice and paten, a full-sized kovouklion, mural icons beginning to be painted, and vestments that don't look like hand-me-downs.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 12:49:16 AM by LBK » Logged
DeniseDenise
Tiredness personified
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catechumen no more!
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,406



« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2014, 12:53:18 AM »

Quote
Looks like a mission,

No mission I've ever had anything to do with has accoutrements as fancy as those in the photos: inlay enamel on the chalice and paten, a full-sized kovouklion, mural icons beginning to be painted, and vestments that don't look like hand-me-downs.


and just because (if) it is a mission....that honestly has no bearing on how 'protestant' you might decide to make it seem.

You are speculating....
Logged

Please secure your own oxygen mask before assisting other passengers.
frjohnmorris
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 1,177


« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2014, 01:02:15 AM »



Quote
Bishop Demetrios Kantzavelos of Mokissos and other clergy gathered around the Epitaphios in Divine Liturgy on Holy Saturday at Holy Anargyroi Greek Orthodox Church in Rochester, Minnesota, United States

Source

His Grace's Wiki bio doesn't say whether he used to be Catholic or not. 

I frankly doubt that His Grace used to be Catholic or that he did not follow an acceptable Greek Orthodox practice. However, I graduated from Holy Cross the Greek Orthodox seminary and never was taught this practice. Our Antiochian rubrics are quite specific. The Epithaphios is placed on the Holy Table after the procession after the Lamentations on Holy Friday evening and remains there until Ascension The Holy Saturday Divine Liturgy and every other Liturgy before Ascension is celebrated on the Holy Table as usual, but on top of the Epihaphios.
Logged
methodius
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: orthodox - OCA
Jurisdiction: Diocese of Canada
Posts: 234



« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2014, 01:03:09 AM »

Excuse me?
 "used to be" Catholics?
 maybe I mistook something, but isn't the Orthodox Church the original Catholic Church?

Seems to me we still say so near the end of the Creed....
Logged

kyrie eleison
frjohnmorris
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 1,177


« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2014, 01:13:08 AM »

Excuse me?
 "used to be" Catholics?
 maybe I mistook something, but isn't the Orthodox Church the original Catholic Church?

Seems to me we still say so near the end of the Creed....

I apologize. I should have written Roman Catholic. You are absolutely right and I was wrong. The Eastern Orthodox Church considers herself to be the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Fr. John W. Morris
Logged
methodius
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: orthodox - OCA
Jurisdiction: Diocese of Canada
Posts: 234



« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2014, 01:18:29 AM »

Thanks Father; I tend to be a 'nit-picker' at times.
My apologies for stating the obvious.
Christ is Risen!
Logged

kyrie eleison
DeniseDenise
Tiredness personified
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catechumen no more!
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,406



« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2014, 01:25:33 AM »

I think Father was merely requoting the original implication.....

someone had implied....that the only people who would do such a thing were *gasp* former Catholics...they of the name that shall not be named here...


Mor refuted that with another picture of the same practice at somewhere that could -not- have been such a church....


thats where the 'catholic' confusion started....
Logged

Please secure your own oxygen mask before assisting other passengers.
Tags: Holy Saturday Great and Holy Saturday Saint Basil the Great Liturgy of St. Basil Epitaphios Plashanitsa Burial Shroud Antimension Antimins 
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.141 seconds with 71 queries.