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Mo the Ethio
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« Reply #45 on: April 09, 2005, 02:09:50 PM »

  EXCUSE ME? I find your comments offensive and inflammatory and contrary to the teachings of our Lord Christ Jesus.The first Christians were all converts. Not all converts have come to the church because it " Looks cool" . Not all converts are disrepectful of the old ways. Many have come to the Church because they realize the truth of the Orthodox teachings. Is this truth for Greeks or Russians .etc alone? NO AND NO!!!!!!!!  THE PHYSICIAN CAME  TO HEAL THE SICK!!
Christ came into the world for ALL of humanity, not just the Greeks and the Russians. Most converts I know are far more zealous and active in their church than many " craddle born" who tend to look at going to church as a chore , similar to many RC`s and protestants .You say that after "we" are gone , it will be to " you " to keep the faith. If that is so , then the church is in very serious trouble. I submit to you , sir , that it will be "us" who keep the faith alive long after nationalistic fanatics as yourself have past. Like it or not , the American church will continue to grow. You might as well accept it and so that we can get on with the buisiness of building unity in the church instead of clinging to dangerous ideas that keep us divided.

                      In Christ , Moses
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« Reply #46 on: April 09, 2005, 02:13:58 PM »

[EXCUSE ME? I find your comments offensive and inflammatory and contrary to the teachings of our Lord Christ Jesus.The first Christians were all converts. Not all converts have come to the church because it " Looks cool" . Not all converts are disrepectful of the old ways. Many have come to the Church because they realize the truth of the Orthodox teachings. Is this truth for Greeks or Russians .etc alone? NO AND NO!!!!!!!! THE PHYSICIAN CAME TO HEAL THE SICK!!
Christ came into the world for ALL of humanity, not just the Greeks and the Russians. Most converts I know are far more zealous and active in their church than many " craddle born" who tend to look at going to church as a chore , similar to many RC`s and protestants .You say that after "we" are gone , it will be to " you " to keep the faith. If that is so , then the church is in very serious trouble. I submit to you , sir , that it will be "us" who keep the faith alive long after nationalistic fanatics as yourself have past. Like it or not , the American church will continue to grow. You might as well accept it and so that we can get on with the buisiness of building unity in the church instead of clinging to dangerous ideas that keep us divided. ]


Moses. Thank you for stating it so well.

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Mo the Ethio
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« Reply #47 on: April 09, 2005, 04:38:01 PM »

WOW! Hey Optxogokcoc!!! The more I think about your post, the more outragous it becomes.
 Am I reading this right? That "we" are not welcome? Please correct me if I am misreading , but am pretty sure that is what you posted.It makes me sick to read that.Not even protestants show that much arrogance!INCREDIBLE!!At least with them I`ll be ok if only I believe as they do! It is as if the prayer " ....Illumine with the light of awareness the apostates from the Orthodox Faith,and those blinded by pernicious heresies, AND NUMBER THEM WITH THY HOLY, APOSTOLIC, CATHOLIC CHURCH" has no meaning to you. You make Orthodoxy sound like some kind of exclusive club that can only be joined if someone is of the correct ethnic background.You would deny the faith to my five year old daughter,who is more devout than any convert or cradle born I know. HYPOCRITE!!!! SHAME ON YOU!!!!
You say that "we" will turn our backs on the faith because it is too Greek, too Russian, too hard.WE WILL NEVER TURN FROM THE ONE TRUE CHURCH!!! The only reason "we" might ever consider such a rash act, would be to distance ourselves from fanatics such as yourself who twist the Truth of the Faith. May God have mercy on you.
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« Reply #48 on: April 09, 2005, 06:17:07 PM »

Please, I am talking to you, the key holder of paradise, whoever you are greek or russian let some newbies in .... There is room for everyone.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2005, 06:17:47 PM by lpap » Logged

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« Reply #49 on: April 09, 2005, 09:18:30 PM »

+æ+¦+¦++-é ++ +ÿ+¦-î-é, +¼+¦+¦++-é +Ö-â-ç-à -ü-î-é, +¼+¦+¦++-é +æ+++¼+++¦-ä++-é, +¦+++¡++-â++++ +++++¼-é ,
+æ+¦+¦++-é ++ +ÿ+¦-î-é, +¼+¦+¦++-é +Ö-â-ç-à -ü-î-é, +¼+¦+¦++-é +æ+++¼+++¦-ä++-é, +¦+++¡++-â++++ +++++¼-é ,
+æ+¦+¦++-é ++ +ÿ+¦-î-é, +¼+¦+¦++-é +Ö-â-ç-à -ü-î-é, +¼+¦+¦++-é +æ+++¼+++¦-ä++-é, +¦+++¡++-â++++ +++++¼-é , +æ+++«++!

May God help me, because of all the sinners, this one (me) is worst.


IPAP: Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.  I am serbian, baptised in the Holy Greek Orthodox Church. And to the extent of a repeating sin, I am proud of that.




MO THE ETHIO:
"EXCUSE ME? I find your comments offensive and inflammatory and contrary to the teachings of our Lord Christ Jesus."
Yes, agreed. Lets think about it for a momment. I am a sinner and I see things the way sinner does. Orthodoxia i thanatos!!! Doesn't a man have a right to offend and inflame his brothers and sisters if it is for glorification? Is that something a hypocrite will do? Or would he say:" It is all good, it is all fine, lets celebrate". I am glad you, my dear brother found them that way. Lets celebrate. We are fighting because YOU are ME. You from the new world defending your, God given (and may Glory and Honour be His now and ever and always, before time, in time and after time) revelation and I am from the old world defending mine. I am glad the you are angry with me. May God love you. Why? What am I on about? Read to the end, please.

Contrary to the teachings of our Lord Christ Jesus, no! And no because it is a way of love and not of hatred. I love you. What is wrong? To say that somebody has kept the faith for 2000 years? That someone has been Orthodox Christian in face of everything that devil can throw at him? Brother (I assume you are male), why is that heterodox? Why is the conviction that when weak fall away, as many have and more will, that somebody will keep the faith? Why is that heterodox? And why is the conviction that, we, of the old world, will do so, heterodox? And why is the oppinion of the new world is rotten, heterodox?



"Not all converts are disrepectful of the old ways."
And then, 5 sentences later you say:"Most converts I know are far more zealous and active in their church than many " craddle born" who tend to look at going to church as a chore , similar to many RC`s and protestants . Brother, is this a showing of RESPECT? So there you are, offended and inflamed. Brother, as a FAR MORE ZELAOUS AND ACTIVE you should know that it is uncharitable to measure ones soul. Now this IS CONTRARY to the teaching of our Lord. This is heterodox.



You are giving couple of UNNECESSARY PROOFS (find what this term means), such as:
"Not all converts have come to the church because it " Looks cool" ;Many have come to the Church because they realize the truth of the Orthodox teachings. Is this truth for Greeks or Russians .etc alone? NO AND NO!!!!!!!!  THE PHYSICIAN CAME  TO HEAL THE SICK!!
Christ came into the world for ALL of humanity, not just the Greeks and the Russians; the American church will continue to grow. "

NOBODY IS SAYING OTHERWISE, because to say otherwise is to state a heresy, and may he be damned who states a heresy. What is so wrong with Greeks and Russians? Are you, now, proud that American Church will grow. Brother, GREECE and RUSSIA are ORTHODOX LANDS. Orthodox nations. We have grown and to grow more we can not, we can not baptise unborn children. WE ARE ALL ORTHODOX. You, now, have to grow, why would I not be happy? Is it heterodox to consider a growth with a sense of caution, in history whenever the Church grew, many have fallen away. I said that God is looking at quality not quantity, by deduction, growth is not necessarily good.

What's bad is the way on which you who are "far more zelaous" are looking at us, CHORISTS (if I may use palatisation of your term), with a sense of arrogance and judgment. Now we are bad and you are good. On this I am saying, that we kept the faith and we will do so in the future when many of you who are "far more zelaous" fall away.



"You say that after "we" are gone , it will be to " you " to keep the faith. If that is so , then the church is in very serious trouble."
And why is this? Why is Church in trouble if this is the case? If all but one fall away, the one is the Church. It has been done before (not to that very extent but lets play with words). St. Mark Effisian, he, may God bless his legacy, has stood against the week and those ready to receive heresy of the west as given. ALONE, he stood and the Church was in very serious trouble. Blessed is that trouble. Blessed is that weakness when minority (of Priesthood in this case) keeps up the faith.



"I submit to you , sir , that it will be "us" who keep the faith alive long after nationalistic fanatics as yourself have past."
And I submit to you, brother, that you are wrong.



I am not "clinging to dangerous ideas that keep us divided". Church can not be divided. Never! One God, One Body and One faith. I am stating that people who come and question everything using the scholastic methodology of the west and who are bringing novel ideas of the west, who are attacking traditions and by them Tradition are not well-wishers and on the benefit of the Church, never were. Is this heterodox? Or is the atheology of the west heterodox. Questions, such as: why isn't Church doing this and why isn't Church doing that are heterodox. Church is doing it the way it was done ALWAYS, EVERYWHERE and by ALL. And, you can like it or not, that is the WAY. I know you like it, because you know these facts and keep them close to your heart.



"Am I reading this right? That "we" are not welcome? Please correct me if I am misreading"
No, you are not reading it right. And yes, you are misreading it.



"It makes me sick to read that.Not even protestants show that much arrogance!INCREDIBLE!!At least with them I`ll be ok if only I believe as they do!"
You are confusing arrogance with concern. Arrogance with the love of Holy Orthodoxy. Arrogance with love of everything that has been given down. I will not even try to go towards answering the second part, its not my area.



"Illumine with the light of awareness the apostates from the Orthodox Faith,and those blinded by pernicious heresies, AND NUMBER THEM WITH THY HOLY, APOSTOLIC, CATHOLIC CHURCH" has no meaning to you."
Unnecessary proof, and a misuderstanding.



"You make Orthodoxy sound like some kind of exclus"ive club that can only be joined if someone is of the correct ethnic background."
AMIN, o yes, very very exclusive club. Many are called.... Using ethicity as a predisposition of the faith is a heresy condemned last century. I have not stated heresy.


"You would deny the faith to my five year old daughter,who is more devout than any convert or cradle born I know."
I will not even answer this. Listen to yourselve! Brother, I am sorry if I made you involve the salvation of you kin, of your child into this discussion. Truly, I beg for forgiveness for this.



"HYPOCRITE!!!! SHAME ON YOU!!!! "
Amin! And may God bless you.



You say that "we" will turn our backs on the faith because it is too Greek, too Russian, too hard.
Where did I say this? Where did I say that you WILL turn you back? I said that when those who came because it is 'cool', converts who ridicule babushkas, converts that question everything... Is that generalisation? NO! God bless you. But you are wrong. It is specialisation. Far from EVERYBODY WILL, instead it is THOSE WHO DO. Is that heterodox?



The only reason "we" might ever consider such a rash act, would be to distance ourselves from fanatics such as yourself who twist the Truth of the Faith.
And where would you go? I am a fanatic. I am a phanariot. And? Its my sin. It is not the sin of the Body, body is sinless. Where would you go? We are both where we are, and blessed is the name of the Lord for you are where you are.



God have mercy on you.
Amin.






Why are brothers and sisters in this way against the statements? Have I stated wrong? I did, and for that I ask for forgiveness, wrote words with some ammount of what it can be considered as arrogance, but God knows, I will not swear, I am not generalising. Far from it. I am saying that there are many who are coming with wrong ideas and wrong attitudes and in doing so.... well some things are not good.

I tried, and failed, to say that I belive in Originality of our faith and in the way that it has always been, when newcomers cool down and go looking for their new 'cool' things, it will be up to us, old belivers to keep the Way up.

Why do you feel that it is exclusive? In thousand years (if Lord hasn't returned yet) you, in Americas, will know what I am talking about. If this is a sin, then so be it. God have mercy.




For all the offensive words, real and percieved I ask for forgiveness, but I belive that on a doctrinal point I have o not stated any heterodox statements. Addmitedly, I could've been more charitable.




God bless you all.










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« Reply #50 on: April 09, 2005, 09:41:47 PM »

Friends, I think the biggest problem in all of these "converts vs. ethnics" type discussions, is the categories being used.  They're divisive, and ridiculous because they define things which do not in fact exist, save in our attitudes.

On one hand, you have so called "ethnic" or "born" Orthodox.  This is really a silly idea, since no one is "born" Orthodox - we're all born in sin, and it isn't until one reaches the Baptismal font, that this changes.  So the idea that being Orthodox is in one's genes, like blonde hair or dark skin can be, is just dumb.  And there is a great pit fall in such an attitude - it causes souls to think that being Orthodox is somehow "inevitable", and hence why you now have a growing number of young "ethnic" Greeks, Russians, etc. who are in fact western born ending up in various Protestant sects - precisely because their parents and their communities figured Orthodoxy would somehow continue on via osmosis, without sufficient catechesis and emphasis upon the spiritual life (ex. the west having notoriously few monastics, even for it's relatively small Orthodox population.)

On the other hand, you have so called "converts".  While it's a term of convienience (as "ethnic Orthodox" so often is), it's an equally bad term to indulge.  Unfortunately it's these so called "converts" themselves who use this term.  If you were to ask them what their religion was, often you'll find it hyphenated with "convert".  However this is the flip side of the above problem - it almost confirms the notion that some people are "born" Orthodox, while others later "become" that way.  That's goofy, and particularly untrue given how many "ethnics" you'll find who will tell you that it wasn't until later in life that they realized how important Orthodoxy was to them, and that they made a personal, mature commitment to it's observance.  While a little enthusiasm by "new Christened" Orthodox is understandable, you'll hear of people who have been Orthodox for years, who still think of themselves as "converts", as being some kind of distinct brand of Orthodox Christian.  This too is divisive.

Really, when it comes right down to it, all of these Orthodox (whether made such in their infancy, or at some point later in their natural lives) are one, and their spiritual needs are no more distinct between each other, than they would be within the previously mentioned (and artificial) subsets.  It's not just so called "converts" that need vernacular services or sermons in the local tongue of the land - and it's just just "ethnics" that need to be part of an Orthodox environment which does not just affect how they live on Sundays and Holy Days, but permeates their entire life (including their family customs.)  Just witness the many young so called "ethnic" Orthodox (born in the west no less!) who are incredibly ignorant about the content of their family's faith save it's most exterior elements - or the flip side, so called "converts" who still think and behave in a basically "non-Orthodox" way.  In both respects, you're witnessing the bitter fruit of false categories.

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« Reply #51 on: April 09, 2005, 09:55:51 PM »

I think everyone could do with taking a deep breath and calming down here.
I didn't understand optxogokcoc as criticising all converts to Orthodoxy. On the other hand optxogokcoc, can you see why this statement may be a little inflammatory:
when newcomers cool down and go looking for their new 'cool' things, it will be up to us, old belivers to keep the Way up."
The word "when" in this statement makes it sound like an inevitable prophesy, and the word "newcomers" makes it sound as though you are including all those who have not come to Orthodoxy from the 'old world'. Further, there is no "us" and "them" in the Church, there is only "us".
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« Reply #52 on: April 09, 2005, 10:19:17 PM »

optxogokcoc

Quote
No, brother Cinizec, I am reffering to all those families that have kept the Orthodoxy, with the help of God and the blessing of the Commynity of Saints, through 1100 years of attempts of Rome to rape us, and 500 years of attempts of Turks to converts us and 90 years of attempts of Communists to eradicate us and so on and on.

And glory to God for such fidelity. But let's also not forget that this survival was not somehow inevitable - lest we fail to consider just how many "ethnic Orthodox" (sic) ended up becoming Mohammedans or lost their faith to the social pressures and persecution created by the Communists or the "Unia".

Quote
OLD BELIEVERS... the cradle Orthodox, Orthdodox not just by faith but by nation.

Well if you're living in the west, with American, Canadian, British, etc. citizenship, you're not in fact "Orthodox by nation"...and as the generations pass, affection and attachment to the motherland will diminish. Hence, the danger of believing the continuation of Orthodox faith within families that began in "Orthodox lands" is somehow inevitable. It is not, unfortunately.

Quote
New converts that think that Orthodoxy is just another protestant sect that should be 'givean a go, 'coz it looks cool'.

I've had the opportunity to meet many people who have personally chosen to become Orthodox at various stages of their lives. Some are flakes, granted. Some are among the best people I've met. It's a mix, like in almost anything. What I think is unfair though, is to reduce these conversions to an infatuation with externals. Though even that's not a bad start, if we are to believe the traditional story of St.Vladimir's conversion (where his emissaries return from Constantinople speaking radiantly of how beautiful Hagia Sophia was and the glory of the Orthodox liturgy celebrated there - they said they did not know if they were "on earth or in heaven".)

Quote
New converts that ridicule babushkas and traditions of the East and in doing so ridicule Tradition.

True, there are some folks like this, and that is very sad. On the other hand though, I've encountered far more "ethnic Orthodox who do precisely this, both numerically and proportionately. There is no end in the various juristictions here in the west, to those so called "born" Orthodox who are ashamed of the Church, and wish to see it become "modernized" and more like the various mainstream heterodox denominations of the west. In fact all of the big pushes for this are distinctly "ethnic" in their origin (meaning those pushing for such things come from Orthodox families, and are not so called "converts".)

Quote
Some say that it is good that Church is growing in the West. People count the numbers of people who are being babtised. And in doing so trying to revive their own dead faith. I (and many others, fundamentalists or blind latin haters, as we are commonly known) disagree. God is not God of quantity, but God of quality.

Yes, , God I thank thee that I am not like other men (St.Luke 18:9-14) I'm assuming of course, you're among the "quality", right?

Quote
West is rotten. West is dead. And all of those who, by the mercy of the Lord, became Orthodox and who still have that scholastic mind of the west, mind that will leave nothing unquestioned, that will try to explain everything and learn nothing, mind that is poisoning the Church in the west and in doing so pushing the poison of wrong ideas and culture of relativism into the Church at Home, all of them, new and smart people who know better that to do what we have done for two thousand years, all of them are not always welcome.

"The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" as the saying goes. Yes, there are lots of problems here. But so there are "back home" as well.

Quote
Contrary to the teachings of our Lord Christ Jesus, no! And no because it is a way of love and not of hatred. I love you. What is wrong? To say that somebody has kept the faith for 2000 years? That someone has been Orthodox Christian in face of everything that devil can throw at him?

This is the conceit here though - it wasn't you, or your contemporaries, who survived all of that - that was the virtue and struggle of others. Whether you keep the faith, or your children do, is another matter. This is the danger of believing any of this is somehow "inevitable." Keep in mind that alot of those Arab Muslims and Turks too have Orthodox Christian ancestors. In other words, there is nothing inevitable in any of this - it's a struggle, one which each person must individually enter into.

Quote
And why is the conviction that, we, of the old world, will do so, heterodox?

I wouldn't say it's heterodox, just silly and unfounded. Those who keep the faith, will be those who keep the faith - whatever their earthly citizenship or ancestory may be. Sadly, you'll find defectors in every corner. The East-Roman Empire is now mostly Muslim held - what happened to all of those Orthodox Christians? Simple - most of them eventually became Muslims. Those who didn't, did so at a great personal price - and that was a decision they had to make. It will be the same in the future.

Quote
And why is the oppinion of the new world is rotten, heterodox?

Again, not heterodox, but just silly. Greece isn't great shakes anymore, I hate to say. You'll find strongholds of wonderful, faithful and zealous Orthodox there to be sure - but you'll find a disappointing number of secularized, godless people there too. This goes without saying about Slavic countries as well, like Russia. So there are problems there too. There are problems everywhere. The times are very evil. It's dangerous to believe one need not be vigilant anywhere.

Quote
I am not "clinging to dangerous ideas that keep us divided". Church can not be divided. Never! One God, One Body and One faith. I am stating that people who come and question everything using the scholastic methodology of the west and who are bringing novel ideas of the west, who are attacking traditions and by them Tradition are not well-wishers and on the benefit of the Church, never were.

Of course there are "converts" who have not really shed their heterodox past. I'll grant that this happens, and too often. But consider this my friend - that the greatest offenders in this regard, of bringing heterodoxy into the sanctuary of Orthodoxy, have not been so called "converts", but so called "born" Orthodox themselves! This is true both here in the west, and back in the "mother lands". Was it "converts" who have involved (and still involve) Orthodoxy in ecumenism (ex. World Council of Churches, and it's various national branches)? Was it some "convert" who introduced the "new" calendar into Orthodoxy? Was it "converts" who comprimised Orthopraxis, by introducing organs and pews into Orthodox Churches?

The last example is particularly telling, since it's been my (admittedly personal, so take it for what it's worth) observation that it's often the "converts" who don't want the pews in the Churches, and who tend towards being "integralists", particularly in matters of praxis. I'm not saying there are not also luke warm people and bad apples, but I think it's really unfair to dump all of this on "converts", when the reality is that these are problems that trancend any one little group of Orthodox - rather this is a problem in the Orthodox world, period - including so called "born" Orthodox (and even in "Orthodox lands".)

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« Reply #53 on: April 11, 2005, 07:53:34 AM »

I think that I've said everything on this matter, and to this I have nothing to add.

God bless.
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« Reply #54 on: April 11, 2005, 08:42:47 AM »

Well, I think your condemnations have the force of nothing, optxogokcoc.  I understand where you are coming from, but your statements on this thread stand as condemnation of some of our greatest saints. 

I also enjoy how you pass the buck on the "innovations" within Orthodoxy.  It's not you "old believers" but us converts.  I think if you looked back through the last century you would find that it was your "old believers" who changed the calendar, etc.  At least as you have defined what an "old believer" constitutes. 

I also see how you reject any synod before it happens because you have divined the results and have rejected the Church.  You alone (and those who agree with you) are the only "real" church left because the Apostolic Church is in heresy and you seem to say that you stand outside the Apostolic Church and you are proud of that fact.  That makes you Protestant.  I know.  I grew up with that drivel.
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« Reply #55 on: April 11, 2005, 01:01:20 PM »

OLD BELIEVERS... the cradle Orthodox, Orthdodox not just by faith but by nation. The Pharisees as the new conNTROverts are calling us. New converts that think that Orthodoxy is just another protestant sect that should be 'givean a go, 'coz it looks cool'. New converts that ridicule babushkas and traditions of the East and in doing so ridicule Tradition.

I cannot speak to the situation of "Orthodox" nations at all, but only to the situation that I see in the United States. And what I see here is exactly backwards from the picture you paint.

The stereotypical convert to an Orthodox church in the USA is an Anglo-Saxon who is deeply unhappy with the theological trends in his former church and who sees in Orthodoxy a permanent refuge from theological liberalism in particular and indeed, change in general. These people were very pious in their old church, and they bring their piety with them. But they also bring other things. Their whole conversion is ultimately based in the Protestant idea that one can judge among the churches on the basis of theology, and so they judge away. They are also driven to differentiate themselves as much as possible from their old church, so they have their eagle eye out for anything "western". And they take everything very seriously.

I say "stereotype"-- it's a bit of an exaggeration. Yet it seems to me that the born Orthodox (or for that matter, those that marry into the church) are more relaxed and less relentlessly judgemental. And it also seems the case that most of the loudly traditionalist voices in Orthodoxy, at least on the internet, have English surnames-- names like "Rose".

The babushka thing is a case in point. As far as I can see it's hardly ever an issue with the born Orthodox here: very pious old women may make a show of their piety in their headcovering, and may complain about the laxitude of the next generation. But they've always done that, and I'll bet they did that back in 18th century Russia too. The younger generation (meaning those under 66) covers or not with scarves or hats or whatever, but if I see a woman with a calico scarf cinched down like a boat cover, chances are there's someone named "Smith" or "Jones" in her family tree.
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« Reply #56 on: April 11, 2005, 03:35:16 PM »

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Their whole conversion is ultimately based in the Protestant idea that one can judge among the churches on the basis of theology

So is the conversion of any non-Christian who converts to Christianity based in Protestantism, as they are judging religions on the basis of theology?
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« Reply #57 on: April 11, 2005, 10:48:47 PM »

To the board , forgive me for straying so far from the original topic of this strand.
  To my brother Optxogokcoc ,forgive my offending tone and harsh words. I failed (again) to remember the words of Holy Father Moses ...." He who seeth his own sins, seeth not the sins of others."
  To my Orthodox brothers and sisters , forgive me for not fasting my tongue and my passions during this Great Lent.
  That being said, Optxogokcoc, I think that perhaps ( in the words of Cool Hand Luke)..
" What we have here is a failure to communicate." Perhaps also , this is a problem with the Church in general.
  Without rehashing what`s already been stated, I would like to say that after reading your reply , I tend to agree with most of what you said. As far as "old world" , "new world" ...it`s one world under Christ ,right? My comments about converts being more zeolus and active in the church...you are right ..that is an arrogant and judgemental thing to say , although I was refering to others and not myself. One more thing I do want to say ( without offence if possible) is that just because we are Americans , don`t automatically assume that we want change all of the old traditions. I am sure that mentality exsists , but I very much depend on my Greek and Russian brothers and sister to educate me about the old ways. The same for applying scholastic methodology and the Augutinian rationalistic outlook. These are points I failed to make due to my inarticulate and sinful nature.

          Forgive me brother.     In Christ ,Moses
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"Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names."
- John F. Kennedy (1917-1963)
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« Reply #58 on: April 13, 2005, 01:05:59 AM »

Cinizec, brother, it is amazing how poeople of this forum tend to completely miss the point of what I am trying to say. It is going on from the day one. You see, in my experience, people whom I am talking to, can understand me because they see my body language. Here you can see only the words. Here it is like talking to a woman who WANTS to argue, and everyone knows that no man has been born who can make such a woman be at peace. I am saying one thing in answering to borthers who have concluded pretty much the same thing that you have, here, concluded and now, you come again. Again, I will say that I have said everything I had to say on this matter and that is it. If you really want to find what I wanted to say, read my posts again... it is like those 3D pictures.. it will become visable eventually. (btw. I am not born Orthodox. How many serbs who are greek Orthodox do you know? It is called analogia.)

Mo the Ethio, brother it is all good. God bless you. I am a master of miscomunication. Smiley
« Last Edit: April 13, 2005, 01:07:39 AM by optxogokcoc » Logged
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