OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 30, 2014, 11:26:09 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Pan-Orthodox Synod  (Read 5714 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
cizinec
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 941


There ain't no way but the hard way.


« on: April 07, 2005, 12:51:12 PM »

I'm combining some thoughts from several threads here.

Our priest has been talking lately about the likelihood of a pan-Orthodox synod to discuss the calendar, ecumenical, and other issues.

His take was that, regarding the "ecumenists" and the "old calendarists" and the other various groups battling it out as well as the jurisdictional status in new areas, we shouldn't be picking and choosing who is and isn't correct until we have a synod.  We shouldn't be effectively or officially excommunicating each other until these issues are discussed properly.

I know that some here have said it won't happen because it would require us to revisit and condemn the Latins.  I can't imagine why or how we could possibly say more than we have.

What is the chance of a synod happening any time soon? 

After the death of the Bishop of Rome, I have to wonder what will happen at the repose of the EP.  If he cannot be replaced with anyone suitable or if the Turks simply don't allow his replacement, will this trigger a synod?  What are the chances of that?

Do we really need a synod, or will we be able to resolve these problems without one?
Logged

"Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery."
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 19,975


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2005, 01:20:18 PM »

Well, to the best of my knowledge, there are still suitable replacements for the EP in the ranks of the Patriarchal clergy - and remember, BARTHOLOMEW is young, so I doubt we'll have to deal with this issue any time soon.

And I don't think that a major reason would be the condemnation of the Latins - I don't even think that is on the radar for those organizing the Pan-Orthodox Synod.  Remember, a Pan-Orthodox Synod has a different purpose and scope than an "Ecumenical" one.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,406


« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2005, 02:05:19 PM »

Well, to the best of my knowledge, there are still suitable replacements for the EP in the ranks of the Patriarchal clergy - and remember, BARTHOLOMEW is young, so I doubt we'll have to deal with this issue any time soon.

And I don't think that a major reason would be the condemnation of the Latins - I don't even think that is on the radar for those organizing the Pan-Orthodox Synod. Remember, a Pan-Orthodox Synod has a different purpose and scope than an "Ecumenical" one.

I don't really get this "condemnation of the Latins" thing either.  His All-H is young?  How old is he?
Logged
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2005, 02:14:51 PM »

His All Holiness is 65.
Born Feb 29, 1940

That's young to some of us  Cheesy
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
cizinec
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 941


There ain't no way but the hard way.


« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2005, 02:47:55 PM »

I didn't think it was either.  I just saw it mentioned.

65 can be young and it can be old.  But will he last another twenty to thirty years?  It's possible, but then that's only twenty to thirty years.  I may not be around, but that doesn't seem long to me.

How likely is it that we'll see a synod with Patrarch Bartholomew?  Has there been any discussion? 

My priest talks about it like it's going to happen very soon.  Because the Serbian church dealt with a schism that was healed, I was wondering if we are more likely to assume that this will happen sooner than later.

Are we better off *not* coming to a decision on these issues and just remaining in communion, or should we deal with them now before they became greater barriers?
Logged

"Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery."
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2005, 05:05:22 PM »

How likely is it that we'll see a synod with Patrarch Bartholomew? Has there been any discussion?
In an interveiw, still available on the goarch website, the EP speaks of working on the next council with a target date "before the next millennium". Presumably this was 2000-2001 and not 3000-3001. Smiley . I might review the interview to see if he mentions the kind of council's agenda being worked out (I think he does state this.)
Quote
Are we better off *not* coming to a decision on these issues and just remaining in communion, or should we deal with them now before they became greater barriers?

Matters probably will not improve by ignoring the issues indefinitely.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Rilian
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 98

OC.net


« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2005, 05:21:57 PM »

Remember, a Pan-Orthodox Synod has a different purpose and scope than an "Ecumenical" one.

What's the difference?
Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2005, 05:56:46 PM »

What's the difference?

The scope of a Pan-Orthodox Synod will be administrative, not doctrinal, in nature.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2005, 06:14:00 PM »

[Well, to the best of my knowledge, there are still suitable replacements for the EP in the ranks of the Patriarchal clergy - ]

And are they all natural born Turkish citizens as required by Turkish law?  And what are the odds that the one chosen will be accepted by the Turkish government?  Can you prove to us (me) that the current EP was the first choice of the Synod in the last election?

Orthodoc
Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2005, 06:22:12 PM »

And are they all natural born Turkish citizens as required by Turkish law? And what are the odds that the one chosen will be accepted by the Turkish government?

Dont worry, there will be another Oecumenical Patriarch after Bartholomew, even if you would prefer there wasn't.

Can you prove to us (me) that the current EP was the first choice of the Synod in the last election?

Can you prove he wasn't?
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2005, 06:30:27 PM »

Or better yet, prove the current MP wasn't the choice of the atheists...
Better for Moscow to tend to its problems - putting itself back together again, dealing the Ukrainian mess; Costantinople will solve its problems.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,406


« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2005, 06:41:07 PM »

Or better yet, prove the current MP wasn't the choice of the atheists...
Better for Moscow to tend to its problems - putting itself back together again, dealing the Ukrainian mess; Costantinople will solve its problems.

Nah, the EP question is much more important (and interesting) since they're kinda "stuck" right now.  Again, I fully realize Pat. Alexy II is a dubious (former) KGB agent, but he hasn't been as scandalous so to speak and in a political catch-22 like Pat. Bart.

Cizinec,
Yup (on age).  Just look at retired Met. Theodosius.  I think I heard he's actually younger than Met. Herman and was <70 when he retired for health reasons.  Comepare that to Serbian Pat. Pavle who just turned 90 (or is that Bulgarian Pat. Maxim?).  I guess his All-H just looks older.  Is ABp Dem older or younger?

Logged
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2005, 07:51:02 PM »

[Or better yet, prove the current MP wasn't the choice of the atheists...]


The current MP was elected AFTER THE FALL OF COMMUNISM.  He was chosen by a free election of a synod of Bishops of the ROC.


GIC writes:

[Dont worry, there will be another Oecumenical Patriarch after Bartholomew, even if you would prefer there wasn't.]

[Can you prove he wasn't?]

Why do you always avoid answering the questions posed?

Orthodoc



Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Felipe Ortiz
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 83

For He was made man that we might be made God.


« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2005, 07:54:24 PM »

The scope of a Pan-Orthodox Synod will be administrative, not doctrinal, in nature.

But I ask myself: are ecumenism and the calendar administrative or (at least partially) doctrinal matters?

I think that some of the most important issues of such a gathering would be:

(a) ecumenism;
(b) the Church calendar;
(c) the list of the autocephalic churches and their respective jurisdictional territories;
(d) the Western rite.

Issues (c) and (d) are probably more of an administrative nature indeed. Issue (b) is, in my opinion, a consequence of the issue (a). But issue (a) depends on a previous discussion about the status of the non-Orthodox churches -- specially Roman Catholics and Protestants, as no Ecumenical Council has deliberated about these groups yet.

Defining precisely what do these churches are and what is their relation with the Orthodox Church is a prerequisite to a profitable discussion about what we can and what we cannot do or profess in our dealings with them -- and this is the core of the ecumenist issue.

I think it would be very hard to discuss these subjects in a purely administrative level, with no reference to doctrinary matters. One of the points of such a discussion would be, for instance: "What is the difference between the RCC and the EOC? Why isn't the RCC in communion with us?" I don't see how can one avoid doctrinary definitions in coping with this kind of problem. And I'm not sure that all the required doctrinary definitions were already expressly formulated in previous Ecumenical Councils.
Logged
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2005, 08:04:29 PM »

[Costantinople will solve its problems.]

Not if it stays on its present course. This is real life. Italso comes from Greek Orthodox sources. Note the last sentence -

ACTION NEEDED TO PROTECT THE ECUMENICAL PATRIARCHATE PRESENTLY FACING INSTITUTIONAL GENOCIDE

3/21/2005

MEMORANDUM

TO: All Archons

FROM: Anthony J. Limberakis, MD
Archon Aktouarios
National Commander

As you will see by the attached fact sheet, our beloved Ecumenical Patriarchate is quietly and incessantly being asphyxiated by
the subtle persecution of the Turkish government. The historical flame of our Christian Faith is flickering on our Mother
Church and it is our sacred duty as Archons and as Christians to protect this 2,000-year-old holy institution, the spiritual
center of world Orthodoxy, from Institutional Genocide. As bearers of our priceless legacy, we can do no less than our Catholic
brothers do for the Vatican or our Jewish brethren for Jerusalem.

In concert with His Eminence Archbishop Demetrios, the Order is undertaking a major effort consonant with our role as Defenders
of the Faith,?to raise issues of religious freedom to the United States Government and the European Union as they begin to
negotiate EU accession with Turkey. As you know, Turkey wants very much to become an EU member and will have to improve their
practices with regard to religious human rights. Our effort is to assure that the treatment of the Ecumenical Patriarchate by
the government of Turkey and its dismal religious human rights record must be corrected in order for Turkey to gain entry into
the EU.

This is a crisis of historic magnitude! The more Americans know about the severe pressures and deprivation of basic religious
rights presently suffered by His All Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, the more responsive will be our own US
Government to pushing the EU on our behalf. Please help us. Share the information on the attached fact sheet with as many
people as possible. Share it with any media people you may know or other important Americans. Also, some Archons are wearing
their rosette more frequently and are using inquiries about it as a way of opening the subject of the plight of the Ecumenical
Patriarchate.

Together we can protect and promote our Ecumenical Patriarchate, but it will require great effort over a long period pf time.
The martyrs of the early Church were called to witness to the truth with their lives. We are asking you to bear witness with
your words and deeds. As Defenders of the Faith, the time has come to proactively safeguard the Holy and Great Mother Church of
Constantinople.

ACTION NEEDED TO PROTECT THE ECUMENICAL PATRIARCHATE PRESENTLY FACING INSTITUTIONAL GENOCIDE
New developments jeopardize the nearly 2,000-year-old center for 300,000,000 Orthodox Christians-

Recent developments have put into jeopardy the seat of the spiritual leader of millions of Americans and 300 million Orthodox
Christians around the world-the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople in Istanbul, Turkey. In many ways the Ecumenical
Patriarchate is to Orthodox Christians what the Vatican is to Catholics.


This living pillar of history for all Christians is jeopardized. The Apostle Andrew (the brother of Saint Peter) established
the Ecumenical Patriarchate in what is today Turkey in 37 A.D. Turkey has violated basic universally recognized human rights and
have taken actions against the religious rights of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. The seven Ecumenical Councils, all of which were
held under the Ecumenical Patriarchate's religious jurisdiction over 1500 years ago, defined and solidified the doctrines of the
undivided and universal Christian Church. It was in the jurisdictional see of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, that the New
Testament was codified, the constitutional framework of the Christian Church established and the great Creeds first confessed.

Some recent actions by Turkey against the religious rights of the Ecumenical Patriarchate follow. The Turkish government
continues and if we do not raise our concerns, the Ecumenical Patriarchate will be facing Institutional Genocide.

a.. Since 2002, the Turkish government has confiscated 75% of the 1,747 Ecumenical Patriarchate's properties, including an
orphanage the Church has held since 1902. Turkey suddenly put a 42% tax, retroactive to 1999, on the Christian Churches'
Balukli Hospital, which treats 30-40,000 patients a year of which 99% are Muslim and Turkish citizens.
b.. In December 2004, the government of Turkey reversed its commitment to President George Bush to reopen the Theological
School at Halki. By doing so, they kept the Ecumenical Patriarchate in Turkey's ominous "catch 22" - requiring that the
Ecumenical Patriarch be a Turkish citizen while keeping Turkish citizens from qualifying. This assures the
governmental-extinction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. Not reopening the Theological School, guarantees that none of the
remaining 2,000 Turkish citizens who are Orthodox (reduced from hundreds-of-thousands by official discrimination) can become
clergy and, more importantly, Ecumenical Patriarch.
c.. The Turkish government prevents the Orthodox Christian Church from selecting any canonically eligible bishop throughout
the world from becoming the Ecumenical Patriarch by requiring Turkish citizenship and other restrictions.
d.. The Turkish government refuses to recognize the Ecumenical Patriarchate as a bona fide legal entity, a critical issue
since without a legal personality it cannot own property and properly function as a religious institution.
The Prime Minister of Turkey, in late 2004, reversed his commitment to recognize the Ecumenical Patriarch as the head of the
world's Orthodox Christians, instead of just a simple, local Orthodox clergyman. The Prime Minister also insists on keeping the
authority to veto the Patriarchal Holy Synod's selection of Ecumenical Patriarch


=========

Please note what I have underlined and put in bold print.  Now you have heard it from your own sources.

Orthodoc



« Last Edit: April 07, 2005, 08:06:38 PM by Orthodoc » Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Felipe Ortiz
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christianity
Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 83

For He was made man that we might be made God.


« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2005, 08:17:44 PM »

The current MP was elected AFTER THE FALL OF COMMUNISM.  He was chosen by a free election of a synod of Bishops of the ROC.

Metropolitan Alexy of Leningrad of Novgorod was elected Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia in June 7, 1990. He was enthroned three days later. Please see his official biography.

The Communist Party of the Soviet Union was banned only in August 24, 1991. KGB was dismantled only in November 6, 1991. And the USSR was dissolved only in December 26, 1991.

When Alexy II was elected Patriarch, Russia was still part of the USSR, which was still governed by the CPSU, which was still much helped by the KGB.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2005, 08:22:58 PM by Felipe Ortiz » Logged
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2005, 08:25:28 PM »

Bob,
No one here is denying a 450+ year problem doesn't exist. I am delighted you've joined the cause. If not for the Turks, I would right now probably be an anchovie or sardine fisherman or a copper pot maker as my ancestors were for hundreds of years in Trapezounta, happy and WARM.
It seems most evident this new Turkish gov't continues to use the Patriarchate as a tool to force its EU demands while at the same time stealing "legally" from the Christians.
Only Sen. Clinton (I can't believe it, but it is so) is openly condemning the Turks on their treatment of us. She, of course, has ensured the votes of all Astoria in doing so at the Helsinki commission, but it would be helpful if more could apply pressure from the US.
...instead of endless, pointless argument here.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2005, 08:28:40 PM »


When Alexy II was elected Patriarch, Russia was still part of the USSR, which was still governed by the CPSU, which was still much helped by the KGB.
Please, guys, I wasn't maligning the MP, only pointing out that we Greeks don't think less of him (or even believe or care about the commies); and so, why do others not under Constantinople freak out so about our plight.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,406


« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2005, 08:56:07 PM »

Bob,
No one here is denying a 450+ year problem doesn't exist. I am delighted you've joined the cause.

...instead of endless, pointless argument here.

I think most of us have always been with the cause - we just don't support this recent Canon 28 nonesense , corresponding political posturing and butting in to other Churches' business.

We WANT him to have a flock - a LOCAL flock.  This doesn't he should abandon every foreign domain, but probably most of them.  We WANT all of these supposed people you mention to come out of the woodwork.  Let Constantinople shine again!
« Last Edit: April 07, 2005, 09:00:43 PM by Elisha » Logged
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2005, 09:08:54 PM »


We WANT him to have a flock - a LOCAL flock. This doesn't he should abandon every foreign domain, but probably most of them. We WANT all of these supposed people you mention to come out of the woodwork. Let Constantinople shine again!

Huh??? What "supposed people" did I mention?
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Rilian
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 98

OC.net


« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2005, 09:27:35 PM »



The scope of a Pan-Orthodox Synod will be administrative, not doctrinal, in nature.

When was the last one?
Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2005, 09:41:18 PM »

Orthodoc,
[Can you prove he wasn't?]
Why do you always avoid answering the questions posed?

You're asking me to prove a negative, which is absurd. I'm taking the posistion that the word of the Patriarchal Synod should be trusted unless you have proof to the contrary, a perfectly rational posistion. Though I do enjoy your almost comical conspiracy theorist outlook on the situation...let me guess, the Illuminati and Knights Templar are are somehow involved too...LOL.

Not if it stays on its present course.  This is real life.  Italso  comes from Greek Orthodox sources.  Note the last sentence -

This is real life, and the Patriarchate will survive, just you watch. As far as the right of the State to approve Patriarchal Elections, so what? This is the case in other Patriarchates as well and has been for centuries, a 'veto power' is a relatively minor influence, one that the Church has long considered acceptable.


Elisha,
We WANT him to have a flock - a LOCAL flock. This doesn't he should abandon every foreign domain, but probably most of them.

Phyletism! (I always seem to get falsely accused of it, so when I see it really taking place I think I should start pointing it out Wink )


Rilian,
When was the last one?
1923, I believe.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2005, 09:53:30 PM »

[why do others not under Constantinople freak out so about our plight.]

What we freak out about is the way you have chosen so far to deal with your plight and how it interferes and effects our churches. Interferring in the administrative functions of other patriarchates and attempts to sheep steal will not solve your problems. Seeing the reality of your situation and acting accordingly will.

It's all very simple. If the EP removes himself from Turkey so he can attend his flock without Moselm interference and control, he still has a chance. To remain and try to solve the problem by interference in other Orthodox Patriarchates and hob nob with the RC's can only lead to
his demise in the not to distant future.

Until then don't expect we Orthodox in America to put ourselves under such terrible odds.

Orthodoc
Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2005, 10:05:46 PM »

Bob,
It's your maniacal loathing for the EP that sets me off. Outside that, I don't want him interfereing elsewhere. I objected to his handling of Estonia, now the Ukraine.
But his abandoning his flock in the capital of his see 'cause the going is tough is ridiculous.
No one's asking you to "put themselves under him" here.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Veniamin
Fire for Effect!
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the South
Posts: 3,372


St. Barbara, patroness of the Field Artillery


« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2005, 10:13:19 PM »

No one's asking you to "put themselves under him" here.

Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding, but I thought GiC has been arguing that America is one of the "barbarian lands" and thus should be under the EP.

(Or if he hasn't argued that explicity, it's the logical result of his position.)
« Last Edit: April 07, 2005, 10:13:52 PM by Veniamin » Logged

Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2005, 10:22:36 PM »

[I'm taking the posistion that the word of the Patriarchal Synod should be trusted unless you have proof to the contrary, a perfectly rational posistion. ]

What word of the Patriachal Synod? You have yet to show us where we can read about the election of this EP. And you have yet to prove your claim that he was the first choice of the synod of bishops and accepted by the Turkish Moselm government after the first vote.

[As far as the right of the State to approve Patriarchal Elections, so what? ]

So What? As I write this there are only 2000 Orthodox Christians left in Turkey to pick from. Narrow that down to celibate Monks and what are you left with?

[Phyletism! (I always seem to get falsely accused of it, so when I see it really taking place I think I should start pointing it out )]

The very name you go by reeks of phyletism!

Felipe writes:

[When Alexy II was elected Patriarch, Russia was still part of the USSR, which was still governed by the CPSU, which was still much helped by the KGB.]

Patriarch Alexy II was elected at the June 1990 Sobor. (*) It was the first council since 1917 at which a genuine secret ballot, with multiple candidates occured.

Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2005, 10:23:47 PM »



Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding, but I thought GiC has been arguing that America is one of the "barbarian lands" and thus should be under the EP.

(Or if he hasn't argued that explicity, it's the logical result of his position.)

Thank you for pointing that out to him.

Orthodoc
Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2005, 10:30:35 PM »



Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding, but I thought GiC has been arguing that America is one of the "barbarian lands" and thus should be under the EP.

(Or if he hasn't argued that explicity, it's the logical result of his position.)

Why do you assume I follow greekischristian's line verbatim? He's the canon law specialist, not me. I refer to what is actually happening here.
As to moving the EP...fine. Perhaps he should move to NY or DC...make everyone happy? Except those left in Turkey.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Veniamin
Fire for Effect!
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the South
Posts: 3,372


St. Barbara, patroness of the Field Artillery


« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2005, 10:38:08 PM »

Why do you assume I follow greekischristian's line verbatim? He's the canon law specialist, not me. I refer to what is actually happening here.
As to moving the EP...fine. Perhaps he should move to NY or DC...make everyone happy? Except those left in Turkey.

I didn't mean to suggest that you were following his line, just that if he's arguing that point, then there is someone suggesting that we put ourselves under him.  I apologize if I phrased the previous comment poorly.

Speaking of moving the EP to the US, didn't Metropolitan Philip of the Antiochian Archdiocese actually suggest that a while back?  (Or he could have been talking about moving the Antiochian Patriarchate; can't seem to find the article I'm thinking of.)
Logged

Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2005, 10:43:11 PM »


Speaking of moving the EP to the US, didn't Metropolitan Philip of the Antiochian Archdiocese actually suggest that a while back? (Or he could have been talking about moving the Antiochian Patriarchate; can't seem to find the article I'm thinking of.)

Yes he did and that he would submit to the EP gladly. The metropolitan has guts. I'm sure that sent shock waves out, a tsunami.
I wonder if he is just as frustrated as everyone else? Seems even if Constantinople were to "pull out", if that were even possible, that would solve little.
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2005, 11:24:47 PM »

And this thread has degraded into yet another 'Let us ignore the Oecumenical Synods and attack the Oecumenical Throne' thread. So I believe I've finished directly addressing this ludicracy...and hopefully some of the members on this board can suppress their burning hatred of His All-Holiness long enough to have a sensable conversation.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2005, 11:25:47 PM by greekischristian » Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
cizinec
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 941


There ain't no way but the hard way.


« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2005, 12:03:01 AM »

Now now now.

I didn't want to start a fight.  I did, however, get some information I was wanting, and for that I thank you all.

Concerning the question of doctrinal issues, I think they can limit their discussions to more practical matters and steer away from the underlying doctrinal matters until a time can be set to deal with them.

I didn't realize there was a possibility that the EP could be relocated here.  Without thinking it through, I can't say that I think that would be a bad thing.  If anything, it would just be a physical realization of something that has been practically in effect for a very long time.
Logged

"Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery."
Veniamin
Fire for Effect!
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the South
Posts: 3,372


St. Barbara, patroness of the Field Artillery


« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2005, 12:13:48 AM »

If the EP did move to the US (hmm...."Archbishop of Constantinople, New Rome, and San Antonio, Ecumenical Patriarch"...has a nice ring to it  Wink), what effect would that have on the process of uniting the American jurisdictions into a single canonical entity?
Logged

Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,406


« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2005, 01:22:39 AM »



Huh??? What "supposed people" did I mention?

Not necessarily you - I think it was GiC or maybe cleveland back in the Anti-Western Orthodoxy or Autocephaly at the Will of the EP threads in earlier pages.  One them I think made some extremely optimistic point (to put it nicely) that if the Turkish governtment removed their oppressive yolk (i.e. upon entrance into the EU as a condition), that a few hundred thousand Orthodox would suddenly come out of the woodwork.
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 19,975


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2005, 06:32:59 AM »

Not necessarily you - I think it was GiC or maybe cleveland back in the Anti-Western Orthodoxy or Autocephaly at the Will of the EP threads in earlier pages. One them I think made some extremely optimistic point (to put it nicely) that if the Turkish governtment removed their oppressive yolk (i.e. upon entrance into the EU as a condition), that a few hundred thousand Orthodox would suddenly come out of the woodwork. 

Okay, so I am an optimist - I don't think I said a "few hundred thousand", but that is a possibility.  I just said that there are many crypto-Christians in Constantinople who would love to see an air of tolerance in the city.  The government is a secular one, so that isn't the major reason why they're hiding - they hide because the ultra-religious Moslems have an all-too strong presence in the city - which is why you have the occasional grenade dropped in the Phanar (which is a factor I think some people forget about when they consider the actions and mentality of the EP - myself included).
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Justionios
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 68



« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2005, 10:59:19 AM »

How can we demand A pan-orthodox synod ? Who will we call to that meeting !

 If call the Greeks and Romanians they will never condemt the latins becuase they are all the time togehter, And of course they will not condemt the new calendar.

It is to late to hope for this, Because we don't now who is orthodox and whos in not , anylonger.

 
Logged

ΧΑΙΡΕ ΑΝΟΡΘΡΩΣΕΙΣ ΤΩΝ ΑΝΘΡΩΠΩΝ , ΧΑΙΡΕ Κ
Elisha
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 4,406


« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2005, 11:05:51 AM »

Justinois,
Again, most of us here don't see how 'condemning the Latins' would be in the scope of the Synod or even necessary.  It's not really an adminstrative task that should be cleared up (as GiC previously clarified, as opposed to doctrinal issues).

cleveland,
Oh, and I never would think to laugh at someone in the GOA going to seminary (or non GOAer going to HC).  There's plenty more to laugh about if I wanted to find something (as in most of the other jurisidictions as well!).
Logged
cizinec
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 941


There ain't no way but the hard way.


« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2005, 11:48:48 AM »

justionios,

i'm not so certain that the calendar will be rubber stamped. i know that most people think it is a shoe-in, but I disagree. i just don't see a group of bishops arguing about the convenience of the new calendar are going to win the day in a synod. I also think that it will be a hard sell on Christian unity when it has caused disunity with Orthodoxy. Disunity for unity? Who is for this newly modified "Julian" calendar?  The EP, the Greeks and the Antiochians.  Those are powerful folks.  But don't count out the Russians, Serbs, Bulgarians, Romanians, etc. etc. etc.  Some of these may be allowing modified calendars, but I get the impression that most of these churches aren't really happy about it.  Let's not forget the zeal of those who are trying to preserve the calendar.  I don't see the same enthusiasm from the other camp.

 I think in a synod the burden will be on the new calendarists and it won't be as quick a task as you suppose.

*If* the new calendar were to be accepted I think it would be with some pretty serious caveats.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2005, 12:02:24 PM by cizinec » Logged

"Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery."
cizinec
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 941


There ain't no way but the hard way.


« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2005, 11:52:27 AM »

i would hope that the EP would locate in the capital. 

the turks will stop their persecution when pigs fly.  eu or no eu.
Logged

"Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery."
Augustine
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 565

pray for me, please


WWW
« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2005, 12:09:23 PM »

Quote
Speaking of moving the EP to the US, didn't Metropolitan Philip of the Antiochian Archdiocese actually suggest that a while back?  (Or he could have been talking about moving the Antiochian Patriarchate; can't seem to find the article I'm thinking of.)

Umm, that might be a bit of a problem since America already has it's own local Church, whose primate has his cathedra in Washington D.C. Smiley

But then again, wouldn't this be typically "North American Orthodox", with overlapping juristictions, etc.? Sad

Logged
cizinec
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 941


There ain't no way but the hard way.


« Reply #40 on: April 08, 2005, 01:39:56 PM »

Quote
Umm, that might be a bit of a problem since America already has it's own local Church, whose primate has his cathedra in Washington D.C.

i don't see how a synod couldn't adequately address and solve the problem of both, not that there will actually be a synod or the EP will come to the US, etc.

I just can't see these jurisdictional issues in the Americas going on for a lot longer.
Logged

"Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery."
optxogokcoc
orthodoxos
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 132


« Reply #41 on: April 08, 2005, 02:09:19 PM »

And after all of you are gone it will be up to US (old belivers) to keep the faith... sad but true... Orhodoxia i thanatos... Aleluia Alueluia Aleluia..

Ellada, Servia, Rousia, Roumania, Bulgaria, Armenia, Eugiptus...
Logged
cizinec
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 941


There ain't no way but the hard way.


« Reply #42 on: April 08, 2005, 10:41:43 PM »

Orthodoxos,

When you say "old believers," I'm assuming you aren't referring to Russian Old Believers.
Logged

"Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery."
Justionios
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 68



« Reply #43 on: April 09, 2005, 04:01:30 AM »

 Cizinec your surley not a bowler but you do new how to make intressting themes.

Maybe you are right , that we should call for a panorthodox meeting, actually I aggree with you,

But who sould we call ? Did you now that the EP including Balkan churches had condemt the new callender several times , still their using it !!
Did you new that that many of the higgest in the hirarchy are auto-eretics because the have spituals meetings eith non-orthodox, did you new that actually anyone that's in the movment of ecuminism is auto-condemnt.

If they today don't follow the rulles the won't follow them after a Pan-Orthodox Synod. Actually why should we have a meeting when their have been several meeting about the calender ?  Instead we should have a meeting to connect hte lost true orthodox, but the the price wil be very expensive because we will have to condemt the biggest part of the church

It sais in the bible that one day the churche will be ruled be wolfes in clothes of lambs,
Logged

ΧΑΙΡΕ ΑΝΟΡΘΡΩΣΕΙΣ ΤΩΝ ΑΝΘΡΩΠΩΝ , ΧΑΙΡΕ Κ
optxogokcoc
orthodoxos
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 132


« Reply #44 on: April 09, 2005, 08:38:42 AM »

No, brother Cinizec, I am reffering to all those families that have kept the Orthodoxy, with the help of God and the blessing of the Commynity of Saints, through 1100 years of attempts of Rome to rape us, and 500 years of attempts of Turks to converts us and 90 years of attempts of Communists to eradicate us and so on and on.
OLD BELIEVERS... the cradle Orthodox, Orthdodox not just by faith but by nation. The Pharisees as the new conNTROverts are calling us. New converts that think that Orthodoxy is just another protestant sect that should be 'givean a go, 'coz it looks cool'. New converts that ridicule babushkas and traditions of the East and in doing so ridicule Tradition.
Some say that it is good that Church is growing in the West. People count the numbers of people who are being babtised. And in doing so trying to revive their own dead faith. I (and many others, fundamentalists or blind latin haters, as we are commonly known) disagree. God is not God of quantity, but God of quality. West is rotten. West is dead. And all of those who, by the mercy of the Lord, became Orthodox and who still have that scholastic mind of the west, mind that will leave nothing unquestioned, that will try to explain everything and learn nothing, mind that is poisoning the Church in the west and in doing so pushing the poison of wrong ideas and culture of relativism into the Church at Home, all of them, new and smart people who know better that to do what we have done for two thousand years, all of them are not always welcome.
When they are all gone because it is to hard or to oldfashioned or stupid, or to Greek or to Russian to do 'this thing 'bout salvation', when they are all gone, it will be left to us. And we wil do, quietly and humbly as it was done for 2000 years.


Those are the Old belivers that I am reffering to.



Logged
Mo the Ethio
Proud Capitalist
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ορθοδοξία ή θάνατος!
Posts: 453



« Reply #45 on: April 09, 2005, 02:09:50 PM »

  EXCUSE ME? I find your comments offensive and inflammatory and contrary to the teachings of our Lord Christ Jesus.The first Christians were all converts. Not all converts have come to the church because it " Looks cool" . Not all converts are disrepectful of the old ways. Many have come to the Church because they realize the truth of the Orthodox teachings. Is this truth for Greeks or Russians .etc alone? NO AND NO!!!!!!!!  THE PHYSICIAN CAME  TO HEAL THE SICK!!
Christ came into the world for ALL of humanity, not just the Greeks and the Russians. Most converts I know are far more zealous and active in their church than many " craddle born" who tend to look at going to church as a chore , similar to many RC`s and protestants .You say that after "we" are gone , it will be to " you " to keep the faith. If that is so , then the church is in very serious trouble. I submit to you , sir , that it will be "us" who keep the faith alive long after nationalistic fanatics as yourself have past. Like it or not , the American church will continue to grow. You might as well accept it and so that we can get on with the buisiness of building unity in the church instead of clinging to dangerous ideas that keep us divided.

                      In Christ , Moses
Logged

"Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names."
- John F. Kennedy (1917-1963)
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #46 on: April 09, 2005, 02:13:58 PM »

[EXCUSE ME? I find your comments offensive and inflammatory and contrary to the teachings of our Lord Christ Jesus.The first Christians were all converts. Not all converts have come to the church because it " Looks cool" . Not all converts are disrepectful of the old ways. Many have come to the Church because they realize the truth of the Orthodox teachings. Is this truth for Greeks or Russians .etc alone? NO AND NO!!!!!!!! THE PHYSICIAN CAME TO HEAL THE SICK!!
Christ came into the world for ALL of humanity, not just the Greeks and the Russians. Most converts I know are far more zealous and active in their church than many " craddle born" who tend to look at going to church as a chore , similar to many RC`s and protestants .You say that after "we" are gone , it will be to " you " to keep the faith. If that is so , then the church is in very serious trouble. I submit to you , sir , that it will be "us" who keep the faith alive long after nationalistic fanatics as yourself have past. Like it or not , the American church will continue to grow. You might as well accept it and so that we can get on with the buisiness of building unity in the church instead of clinging to dangerous ideas that keep us divided. ]


Moses. Thank you for stating it so well.

Orthodoc
[A cradle Orthodox who sees our converts as gift from God]
« Last Edit: April 09, 2005, 02:15:06 PM by Orthodoc » Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Mo the Ethio
Proud Capitalist
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ορθοδοξία ή θάνατος!
Posts: 453



« Reply #47 on: April 09, 2005, 04:38:01 PM »

WOW! Hey Optxogokcoc!!! The more I think about your post, the more outragous it becomes.
 Am I reading this right? That "we" are not welcome? Please correct me if I am misreading , but am pretty sure that is what you posted.It makes me sick to read that.Not even protestants show that much arrogance!INCREDIBLE!!At least with them I`ll be ok if only I believe as they do! It is as if the prayer " ....Illumine with the light of awareness the apostates from the Orthodox Faith,and those blinded by pernicious heresies, AND NUMBER THEM WITH THY HOLY, APOSTOLIC, CATHOLIC CHURCH" has no meaning to you. You make Orthodoxy sound like some kind of exclusive club that can only be joined if someone is of the correct ethnic background.You would deny the faith to my five year old daughter,who is more devout than any convert or cradle born I know. HYPOCRITE!!!! SHAME ON YOU!!!!
You say that "we" will turn our backs on the faith because it is too Greek, too Russian, too hard.WE WILL NEVER TURN FROM THE ONE TRUE CHURCH!!! The only reason "we" might ever consider such a rash act, would be to distance ourselves from fanatics such as yourself who twist the Truth of the Faith. May God have mercy on you.
Logged

"Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names."
- John F. Kennedy (1917-1963)
lpap
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 228

I stopped participating in this forum.


WWW
« Reply #48 on: April 09, 2005, 06:17:07 PM »

Please, I am talking to you, the key holder of paradise, whoever you are greek or russian let some newbies in .... There is room for everyone.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2005, 06:17:47 PM by lpap » Logged

Life is to live the life of others.
optxogokcoc
orthodoxos
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 132


« Reply #49 on: April 09, 2005, 09:18:30 PM »

+æ+¦+¦++-é ++ +ÿ+¦-î-é, +¼+¦+¦++-é +Ö-â-ç-à -ü-î-é, +¼+¦+¦++-é +æ+++¼+++¦-ä++-é, +¦+++¡++-â++++ +++++¼-é ,
+æ+¦+¦++-é ++ +ÿ+¦-î-é, +¼+¦+¦++-é +Ö-â-ç-à -ü-î-é, +¼+¦+¦++-é +æ+++¼+++¦-ä++-é, +¦+++¡++-â++++ +++++¼-é ,
+æ+¦+¦++-é ++ +ÿ+¦-î-é, +¼+¦+¦++-é +Ö-â-ç-à -ü-î-é, +¼+¦+¦++-é +æ+++¼+++¦-ä++-é, +¦+++¡++-â++++ +++++¼-é , +æ+++«++!

May God help me, because of all the sinners, this one (me) is worst.


IPAP: Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.  I am serbian, baptised in the Holy Greek Orthodox Church. And to the extent of a repeating sin, I am proud of that.




MO THE ETHIO:
"EXCUSE ME? I find your comments offensive and inflammatory and contrary to the teachings of our Lord Christ Jesus."
Yes, agreed. Lets think about it for a momment. I am a sinner and I see things the way sinner does. Orthodoxia i thanatos!!! Doesn't a man have a right to offend and inflame his brothers and sisters if it is for glorification? Is that something a hypocrite will do? Or would he say:" It is all good, it is all fine, lets celebrate". I am glad you, my dear brother found them that way. Lets celebrate. We are fighting because YOU are ME. You from the new world defending your, God given (and may Glory and Honour be His now and ever and always, before time, in time and after time) revelation and I am from the old world defending mine. I am glad the you are angry with me. May God love you. Why? What am I on about? Read to the end, please.

Contrary to the teachings of our Lord Christ Jesus, no! And no because it is a way of love and not of hatred. I love you. What is wrong? To say that somebody has kept the faith for 2000 years? That someone has been Orthodox Christian in face of everything that devil can throw at him? Brother (I assume you are male), why is that heterodox? Why is the conviction that when weak fall away, as many have and more will, that somebody will keep the faith? Why is that heterodox? And why is the conviction that, we, of the old world, will do so, heterodox? And why is the oppinion of the new world is rotten, heterodox?



"Not all converts are disrepectful of the old ways."
And then, 5 sentences later you say:"Most converts I know are far more zealous and active in their church than many " craddle born" who tend to look at going to church as a chore , similar to many RC`s and protestants . Brother, is this a showing of RESPECT? So there you are, offended and inflamed. Brother, as a FAR MORE ZELAOUS AND ACTIVE you should know that it is uncharitable to measure ones soul. Now this IS CONTRARY to the teaching of our Lord. This is heterodox.



You are giving couple of UNNECESSARY PROOFS (find what this term means), such as:
"Not all converts have come to the church because it " Looks cool" ;Many have come to the Church because they realize the truth of the Orthodox teachings. Is this truth for Greeks or Russians .etc alone? NO AND NO!!!!!!!!  THE PHYSICIAN CAME  TO HEAL THE SICK!!
Christ came into the world for ALL of humanity, not just the Greeks and the Russians; the American church will continue to grow. "

NOBODY IS SAYING OTHERWISE, because to say otherwise is to state a heresy, and may he be damned who states a heresy. What is so wrong with Greeks and Russians? Are you, now, proud that American Church will grow. Brother, GREECE and RUSSIA are ORTHODOX LANDS. Orthodox nations. We have grown and to grow more we can not, we can not baptise unborn children. WE ARE ALL ORTHODOX. You, now, have to grow, why would I not be happy? Is it heterodox to consider a growth with a sense of caution, in history whenever the Church grew, many have fallen away. I said that God is looking at quality not quantity, by deduction, growth is not necessarily good.

What's bad is the way on which you who are "far more zelaous" are looking at us, CHORISTS (if I may use palatisation of your term), with a sense of arrogance and judgment. Now we are bad and you are good. On this I am saying, that we kept the faith and we will do so in the future when many of you who are "far more zelaous" fall away.



"You say that after "we" are gone , it will be to " you " to keep the faith. If that is so , then the church is in very serious trouble."
And why is this? Why is Church in trouble if this is the case? If all but one fall away, the one is the Church. It has been done before (not to that very extent but lets play with words). St. Mark Effisian, he, may God bless his legacy, has stood against the week and those ready to receive heresy of the west as given. ALONE, he stood and the Church was in very serious trouble. Blessed is that trouble. Blessed is that weakness when minority (of Priesthood in this case) keeps up the faith.



"I submit to you , sir , that it will be "us" who keep the faith alive long after nationalistic fanatics as yourself have past."
And I submit to you, brother, that you are wrong.



I am not "clinging to dangerous ideas that keep us divided". Church can not be divided. Never! One God, One Body and One faith. I am stating that people who come and question everything using the scholastic methodology of the west and who are bringing novel ideas of the west, who are attacking traditions and by them Tradition are not well-wishers and on the benefit of the Church, never were. Is this heterodox? Or is the atheology of the west heterodox. Questions, such as: why isn't Church doing this and why isn't Church doing that are heterodox. Church is doing it the way it was done ALWAYS, EVERYWHERE and by ALL. And, you can like it or not, that is the WAY. I know you like it, because you know these facts and keep them close to your heart.



"Am I reading this right? That "we" are not welcome? Please correct me if I am misreading"
No, you are not reading it right. And yes, you are misreading it.



"It makes me sick to read that.Not even protestants show that much arrogance!INCREDIBLE!!At least with them I`ll be ok if only I believe as they do!"
You are confusing arrogance with concern. Arrogance with the love of Holy Orthodoxy. Arrogance with love of everything that has been given down. I will not even try to go towards answering the second part, its not my area.



"Illumine with the light of awareness the apostates from the Orthodox Faith,and those blinded by pernicious heresies, AND NUMBER THEM WITH THY HOLY, APOSTOLIC, CATHOLIC CHURCH" has no meaning to you."
Unnecessary proof, and a misuderstanding.



"You make Orthodoxy sound like some kind of exclus"ive club that can only be joined if someone is of the correct ethnic background."
AMIN, o yes, very very exclusive club. Many are called.... Using ethicity as a predisposition of the faith is a heresy condemned last century. I have not stated heresy.


"You would deny the faith to my five year old daughter,who is more devout than any convert or cradle born I know."
I will not even answer this. Listen to yourselve! Brother, I am sorry if I made you involve the salvation of you kin, of your child into this discussion. Truly, I beg for forgiveness for this.



"HYPOCRITE!!!! SHAME ON YOU!!!! "
Amin! And may God bless you.



You say that "we" will turn our backs on the faith because it is too Greek, too Russian, too hard.
Where did I say this? Where did I say that you WILL turn you back? I said that when those who came because it is 'cool', converts who ridicule babushkas, converts that question everything... Is that generalisation? NO! God bless you. But you are wrong. It is specialisation. Far from EVERYBODY WILL, instead it is THOSE WHO DO. Is that heterodox?



The only reason "we" might ever consider such a rash act, would be to distance ourselves from fanatics such as yourself who twist the Truth of the Faith.
And where would you go? I am a fanatic. I am a phanariot. And? Its my sin. It is not the sin of the Body, body is sinless. Where would you go? We are both where we are, and blessed is the name of the Lord for you are where you are.



God have mercy on you.
Amin.






Why are brothers and sisters in this way against the statements? Have I stated wrong? I did, and for that I ask for forgiveness, wrote words with some ammount of what it can be considered as arrogance, but God knows, I will not swear, I am not generalising. Far from it. I am saying that there are many who are coming with wrong ideas and wrong attitudes and in doing so.... well some things are not good.

I tried, and failed, to say that I belive in Originality of our faith and in the way that it has always been, when newcomers cool down and go looking for their new 'cool' things, it will be up to us, old belivers to keep the Way up.

Why do you feel that it is exclusive? In thousand years (if Lord hasn't returned yet) you, in Americas, will know what I am talking about. If this is a sin, then so be it. God have mercy.




For all the offensive words, real and percieved I ask for forgiveness, but I belive that on a doctrinal point I have o not stated any heterodox statements. Addmitedly, I could've been more charitable.




God bless you all.










Logged
Augustine
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 565

pray for me, please


WWW
« Reply #50 on: April 09, 2005, 09:41:47 PM »

Friends, I think the biggest problem in all of these "converts vs. ethnics" type discussions, is the categories being used.  They're divisive, and ridiculous because they define things which do not in fact exist, save in our attitudes.

On one hand, you have so called "ethnic" or "born" Orthodox.  This is really a silly idea, since no one is "born" Orthodox - we're all born in sin, and it isn't until one reaches the Baptismal font, that this changes.  So the idea that being Orthodox is in one's genes, like blonde hair or dark skin can be, is just dumb.  And there is a great pit fall in such an attitude - it causes souls to think that being Orthodox is somehow "inevitable", and hence why you now have a growing number of young "ethnic" Greeks, Russians, etc. who are in fact western born ending up in various Protestant sects - precisely because their parents and their communities figured Orthodoxy would somehow continue on via osmosis, without sufficient catechesis and emphasis upon the spiritual life (ex. the west having notoriously few monastics, even for it's relatively small Orthodox population.)

On the other hand, you have so called "converts".  While it's a term of convienience (as "ethnic Orthodox" so often is), it's an equally bad term to indulge.  Unfortunately it's these so called "converts" themselves who use this term.  If you were to ask them what their religion was, often you'll find it hyphenated with "convert".  However this is the flip side of the above problem - it almost confirms the notion that some people are "born" Orthodox, while others later "become" that way.  That's goofy, and particularly untrue given how many "ethnics" you'll find who will tell you that it wasn't until later in life that they realized how important Orthodoxy was to them, and that they made a personal, mature commitment to it's observance.  While a little enthusiasm by "new Christened" Orthodox is understandable, you'll hear of people who have been Orthodox for years, who still think of themselves as "converts", as being some kind of distinct brand of Orthodox Christian.  This too is divisive.

Really, when it comes right down to it, all of these Orthodox (whether made such in their infancy, or at some point later in their natural lives) are one, and their spiritual needs are no more distinct between each other, than they would be within the previously mentioned (and artificial) subsets.  It's not just so called "converts" that need vernacular services or sermons in the local tongue of the land - and it's just just "ethnics" that need to be part of an Orthodox environment which does not just affect how they live on Sundays and Holy Days, but permeates their entire life (including their family customs.)  Just witness the many young so called "ethnic" Orthodox (born in the west no less!) who are incredibly ignorant about the content of their family's faith save it's most exterior elements - or the flip side, so called "converts" who still think and behave in a basically "non-Orthodox" way.  In both respects, you're witnessing the bitter fruit of false categories.

Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #51 on: April 09, 2005, 09:55:51 PM »

I think everyone could do with taking a deep breath and calming down here.
I didn't understand optxogokcoc as criticising all converts to Orthodoxy. On the other hand optxogokcoc, can you see why this statement may be a little inflammatory:
when newcomers cool down and go looking for their new 'cool' things, it will be up to us, old belivers to keep the Way up."
The word "when" in this statement makes it sound like an inevitable prophesy, and the word "newcomers" makes it sound as though you are including all those who have not come to Orthodoxy from the 'old world'. Further, there is no "us" and "them" in the Church, there is only "us".
« Last Edit: April 09, 2005, 09:57:40 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Augustine
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 565

pray for me, please


WWW
« Reply #52 on: April 09, 2005, 10:19:17 PM »

optxogokcoc

Quote
No, brother Cinizec, I am reffering to all those families that have kept the Orthodoxy, with the help of God and the blessing of the Commynity of Saints, through 1100 years of attempts of Rome to rape us, and 500 years of attempts of Turks to converts us and 90 years of attempts of Communists to eradicate us and so on and on.

And glory to God for such fidelity. But let's also not forget that this survival was not somehow inevitable - lest we fail to consider just how many "ethnic Orthodox" (sic) ended up becoming Mohammedans or lost their faith to the social pressures and persecution created by the Communists or the "Unia".

Quote
OLD BELIEVERS... the cradle Orthodox, Orthdodox not just by faith but by nation.

Well if you're living in the west, with American, Canadian, British, etc. citizenship, you're not in fact "Orthodox by nation"...and as the generations pass, affection and attachment to the motherland will diminish. Hence, the danger of believing the continuation of Orthodox faith within families that began in "Orthodox lands" is somehow inevitable. It is not, unfortunately.

Quote
New converts that think that Orthodoxy is just another protestant sect that should be 'givean a go, 'coz it looks cool'.

I've had the opportunity to meet many people who have personally chosen to become Orthodox at various stages of their lives. Some are flakes, granted. Some are among the best people I've met. It's a mix, like in almost anything. What I think is unfair though, is to reduce these conversions to an infatuation with externals. Though even that's not a bad start, if we are to believe the traditional story of St.Vladimir's conversion (where his emissaries return from Constantinople speaking radiantly of how beautiful Hagia Sophia was and the glory of the Orthodox liturgy celebrated there - they said they did not know if they were "on earth or in heaven".)

Quote
New converts that ridicule babushkas and traditions of the East and in doing so ridicule Tradition.

True, there are some folks like this, and that is very sad. On the other hand though, I've encountered far more "ethnic Orthodox who do precisely this, both numerically and proportionately. There is no end in the various juristictions here in the west, to those so called "born" Orthodox who are ashamed of the Church, and wish to see it become "modernized" and more like the various mainstream heterodox denominations of the west. In fact all of the big pushes for this are distinctly "ethnic" in their origin (meaning those pushing for such things come from Orthodox families, and are not so called "converts".)

Quote
Some say that it is good that Church is growing in the West. People count the numbers of people who are being babtised. And in doing so trying to revive their own dead faith. I (and many others, fundamentalists or blind latin haters, as we are commonly known) disagree. God is not God of quantity, but God of quality.

Yes, , God I thank thee that I am not like other men (St.Luke 18:9-14) I'm assuming of course, you're among the "quality", right?

Quote
West is rotten. West is dead. And all of those who, by the mercy of the Lord, became Orthodox and who still have that scholastic mind of the west, mind that will leave nothing unquestioned, that will try to explain everything and learn nothing, mind that is poisoning the Church in the west and in doing so pushing the poison of wrong ideas and culture of relativism into the Church at Home, all of them, new and smart people who know better that to do what we have done for two thousand years, all of them are not always welcome.

"The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" as the saying goes. Yes, there are lots of problems here. But so there are "back home" as well.

Quote
Contrary to the teachings of our Lord Christ Jesus, no! And no because it is a way of love and not of hatred. I love you. What is wrong? To say that somebody has kept the faith for 2000 years? That someone has been Orthodox Christian in face of everything that devil can throw at him?

This is the conceit here though - it wasn't you, or your contemporaries, who survived all of that - that was the virtue and struggle of others. Whether you keep the faith, or your children do, is another matter. This is the danger of believing any of this is somehow "inevitable." Keep in mind that alot of those Arab Muslims and Turks too have Orthodox Christian ancestors. In other words, there is nothing inevitable in any of this - it's a struggle, one which each person must individually enter into.

Quote
And why is the conviction that, we, of the old world, will do so, heterodox?

I wouldn't say it's heterodox, just silly and unfounded. Those who keep the faith, will be those who keep the faith - whatever their earthly citizenship or ancestory may be. Sadly, you'll find defectors in every corner. The East-Roman Empire is now mostly Muslim held - what happened to all of those Orthodox Christians? Simple - most of them eventually became Muslims. Those who didn't, did so at a great personal price - and that was a decision they had to make. It will be the same in the future.

Quote
And why is the oppinion of the new world is rotten, heterodox?

Again, not heterodox, but just silly. Greece isn't great shakes anymore, I hate to say. You'll find strongholds of wonderful, faithful and zealous Orthodox there to be sure - but you'll find a disappointing number of secularized, godless people there too. This goes without saying about Slavic countries as well, like Russia. So there are problems there too. There are problems everywhere. The times are very evil. It's dangerous to believe one need not be vigilant anywhere.

Quote
I am not "clinging to dangerous ideas that keep us divided". Church can not be divided. Never! One God, One Body and One faith. I am stating that people who come and question everything using the scholastic methodology of the west and who are bringing novel ideas of the west, who are attacking traditions and by them Tradition are not well-wishers and on the benefit of the Church, never were.

Of course there are "converts" who have not really shed their heterodox past. I'll grant that this happens, and too often. But consider this my friend - that the greatest offenders in this regard, of bringing heterodoxy into the sanctuary of Orthodoxy, have not been so called "converts", but so called "born" Orthodox themselves! This is true both here in the west, and back in the "mother lands". Was it "converts" who have involved (and still involve) Orthodoxy in ecumenism (ex. World Council of Churches, and it's various national branches)? Was it some "convert" who introduced the "new" calendar into Orthodoxy? Was it "converts" who comprimised Orthopraxis, by introducing organs and pews into Orthodox Churches?

The last example is particularly telling, since it's been my (admittedly personal, so take it for what it's worth) observation that it's often the "converts" who don't want the pews in the Churches, and who tend towards being "integralists", particularly in matters of praxis. I'm not saying there are not also luke warm people and bad apples, but I think it's really unfair to dump all of this on "converts", when the reality is that these are problems that trancend any one little group of Orthodox - rather this is a problem in the Orthodox world, period - including so called "born" Orthodox (and even in "Orthodox lands".)

Logged
optxogokcoc
orthodoxos
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 132


« Reply #53 on: April 11, 2005, 07:53:34 AM »

I think that I've said everything on this matter, and to this I have nothing to add.

God bless.
Logged
cizinec
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 941


There ain't no way but the hard way.


« Reply #54 on: April 11, 2005, 08:42:47 AM »

Well, I think your condemnations have the force of nothing, optxogokcoc.  I understand where you are coming from, but your statements on this thread stand as condemnation of some of our greatest saints. 

I also enjoy how you pass the buck on the "innovations" within Orthodoxy.  It's not you "old believers" but us converts.  I think if you looked back through the last century you would find that it was your "old believers" who changed the calendar, etc.  At least as you have defined what an "old believer" constitutes. 

I also see how you reject any synod before it happens because you have divined the results and have rejected the Church.  You alone (and those who agree with you) are the only "real" church left because the Apostolic Church is in heresy and you seem to say that you stand outside the Apostolic Church and you are proud of that fact.  That makes you Protestant.  I know.  I grew up with that drivel.
Logged

"Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery."
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,377



« Reply #55 on: April 11, 2005, 01:01:20 PM »

OLD BELIEVERS... the cradle Orthodox, Orthdodox not just by faith but by nation. The Pharisees as the new conNTROverts are calling us. New converts that think that Orthodoxy is just another protestant sect that should be 'givean a go, 'coz it looks cool'. New converts that ridicule babushkas and traditions of the East and in doing so ridicule Tradition.

I cannot speak to the situation of "Orthodox" nations at all, but only to the situation that I see in the United States. And what I see here is exactly backwards from the picture you paint.

The stereotypical convert to an Orthodox church in the USA is an Anglo-Saxon who is deeply unhappy with the theological trends in his former church and who sees in Orthodoxy a permanent refuge from theological liberalism in particular and indeed, change in general. These people were very pious in their old church, and they bring their piety with them. But they also bring other things. Their whole conversion is ultimately based in the Protestant idea that one can judge among the churches on the basis of theology, and so they judge away. They are also driven to differentiate themselves as much as possible from their old church, so they have their eagle eye out for anything "western". And they take everything very seriously.

I say "stereotype"-- it's a bit of an exaggeration. Yet it seems to me that the born Orthodox (or for that matter, those that marry into the church) are more relaxed and less relentlessly judgemental. And it also seems the case that most of the loudly traditionalist voices in Orthodoxy, at least on the internet, have English surnames-- names like "Rose".

The babushka thing is a case in point. As far as I can see it's hardly ever an issue with the born Orthodox here: very pious old women may make a show of their piety in their headcovering, and may complain about the laxitude of the next generation. But they've always done that, and I'll bet they did that back in 18th century Russia too. The younger generation (meaning those under 66) covers or not with scarves or hats or whatever, but if I see a woman with a calico scarf cinched down like a boat cover, chances are there's someone named "Smith" or "Jones" in her family tree.
Logged
yBeayf
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 708

/etc


« Reply #56 on: April 11, 2005, 03:35:16 PM »

Quote
Their whole conversion is ultimately based in the Protestant idea that one can judge among the churches on the basis of theology

So is the conversion of any non-Christian who converts to Christianity based in Protestantism, as they are judging religions on the basis of theology?
Logged
Mo the Ethio
Proud Capitalist
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ορθοδοξία ή θάνατος!
Posts: 453



« Reply #57 on: April 11, 2005, 10:48:47 PM »

To the board , forgive me for straying so far from the original topic of this strand.
  To my brother Optxogokcoc ,forgive my offending tone and harsh words. I failed (again) to remember the words of Holy Father Moses ...." He who seeth his own sins, seeth not the sins of others."
  To my Orthodox brothers and sisters , forgive me for not fasting my tongue and my passions during this Great Lent.
  That being said, Optxogokcoc, I think that perhaps ( in the words of Cool Hand Luke)..
" What we have here is a failure to communicate." Perhaps also , this is a problem with the Church in general.
  Without rehashing what`s already been stated, I would like to say that after reading your reply , I tend to agree with most of what you said. As far as "old world" , "new world" ...it`s one world under Christ ,right? My comments about converts being more zeolus and active in the church...you are right ..that is an arrogant and judgemental thing to say , although I was refering to others and not myself. One more thing I do want to say ( without offence if possible) is that just because we are Americans , don`t automatically assume that we want change all of the old traditions. I am sure that mentality exsists , but I very much depend on my Greek and Russian brothers and sister to educate me about the old ways. The same for applying scholastic methodology and the Augutinian rationalistic outlook. These are points I failed to make due to my inarticulate and sinful nature.

          Forgive me brother.     In Christ ,Moses
Logged

"Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names."
- John F. Kennedy (1917-1963)
optxogokcoc
orthodoxos
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 132


« Reply #58 on: April 13, 2005, 01:05:59 AM »

Cinizec, brother, it is amazing how poeople of this forum tend to completely miss the point of what I am trying to say. It is going on from the day one. You see, in my experience, people whom I am talking to, can understand me because they see my body language. Here you can see only the words. Here it is like talking to a woman who WANTS to argue, and everyone knows that no man has been born who can make such a woman be at peace. I am saying one thing in answering to borthers who have concluded pretty much the same thing that you have, here, concluded and now, you come again. Again, I will say that I have said everything I had to say on this matter and that is it. If you really want to find what I wanted to say, read my posts again... it is like those 3D pictures.. it will become visable eventually. (btw. I am not born Orthodox. How many serbs who are greek Orthodox do you know? It is called analogia.)

Mo the Ethio, brother it is all good. God bless you. I am a master of miscomunication. Smiley
« Last Edit: April 13, 2005, 01:07:39 AM by optxogokcoc » Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.188 seconds with 86 queries.