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Offline arrow prayer

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why is our cross different
« on: April 10, 2014, 05:22:37 PM »
what do the extra things on our cross represent.
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: why is our cross different
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2014, 05:43:16 PM »

The top bar is the sign that read "Jesus, Kind of the Jews" which was nailed above Christ's head at His crucifixion.

The middle bar is where His arms were nailed to the Cross.

The lowest bar, is where His feet were nailed to the Cross. 
It slants upward (like a scale) going up to the right, where the "good" thief was on Christ's right side, who asked forgiveness and was awarded with paradise....and the left points downward (where the other thief hung, who ridiculed Christ).
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: why is our cross different
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2014, 05:45:53 PM »

Here's a detailed explanation:  http://www.saintelias.info/_pdfs/3barcross.pdf
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: why is our cross different
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2014, 05:53:02 PM »
The three barred cross is not 'the' Orthodox cross, rather it is one of many styles used in different national Orthodox churches across the globe. There is a detailed discussion of this subject on this thread from a few year's back:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=33297.0 Of course I wouldn't take all of the answers as being accurate, but there is a pretty good discussion there. While almost exclusively used by Russians, Ukrainians and Rusyns, it is rarely, if ever, found in the Greek or Arabic tradition. It is also used by eastern Catholic Ukrainians and Rusyns.

Offline LBK

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Re: why is our cross different
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2014, 07:03:41 PM »
Quote
While almost exclusively used by Russians, Ukrainians and Rusyns, it is rarely, if ever, found in the Greek or Arabic tradition.

Quite true, though in the northern regions of Greece, it does appear from time to time, undoubtedly through their historical proximity to Balkan Slavs. Even where I live, there is a Greek church whose mural icons were painted by three brothers from one of the northern provinces, The icon of the Resurrection features an angel above the risen Christ. This angel is holding an unmistakeably Slavic cross.  :)
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Offline Anna.T

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Re: why is our cross different
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2014, 02:11:42 AM »
I'm glad someone asked, since I had wondered.

The Greek church I attend has the cross with the slanted bar in many of the icons, and in the stained glass windows.

However, many people wear crosses (I don't know what to call them) with the 3 bumps on each end. Sometimes they are more like "plus" shape than a cross (the horizontal bar is centered).

I just realized the other day that the cross I used to make something I hung from my car rearview mirror when I first got the car (12 years ago?) is one of the kind the Greeks tend to use in their jewelry. Prophetic? (lol just kidding - but I thought it was cool that I did that without even knowing)
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Offline IoanC

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Re: why is our cross different
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2014, 04:27:11 AM »
Our crosses are really equal, but different because each one of is unique and has certain characteristics that are only their own.  Our own cross is most important because it is the one we need.

As well, in this life some may have certain talants or more talants than others so more is expected of them; their crosses appear harder, but they also have more "ammo" to deal with them than others. Etc.

Offline genesisone

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Re: why is our cross different
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2014, 09:39:29 AM »
However, many people wear crosses (I don't know what to call them) with the 3 bumps on each end. Sometimes they are more like "plus" shape than a cross (the horizontal bar is centered).

I just realized the other day that the cross I used to make something I hung from my car rearview mirror when I first got the car (12 years ago?) is one of the kind the Greeks tend to use in their jewelry. Prophetic? (lol just kidding - but I thought it was cool that I did that without even knowing)
That style is called a budded cross. There's a Wikipedia article that describes this and many other crosses (not necessarily Christian). It's a fascinating overload of trivia. I have no idea how many of them are actually used with any sort of regularity by the Orthodox.

We're still in the early stages of completing the interior of our church building that we bought last year. Our bishop gave clear instructions to use the budded cross in the nave rather than the three-barred cross, saying that "we're not Russian". (That wasn't intended as any sort of put-down, but rather His Grace is trying to emphasize our own traditions.) We do have a three-barred cross - and a rather large one at that - in the fellowship hall. The bishop made no mention of that.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: why is our cross different
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2014, 11:43:09 AM »
Our crosses are really equal, but different because each one of is unique and has certain characteristics that are only their own.  Our own cross is most important because it is the one we need.

As well, in this life some may have certain talants or more talants than others so more is expected of them; their crosses appear harder, but they also have more "ammo" to deal with them than others. Etc.

I remember our late Bishop in a Q and A with teens some years back at camp, that our cross, the Orthodox cross is the 'the Cross of Christ Crucified' and not to fall into the practice of identifying the three bar cross, common among our Rusyn and Ukrainian parishes, as being THE Orthodox cross. We all have crosses to bare in life he said and it mattered not how they were 'decorated'...or words along those lines.......

Offline Anna.T

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Re: why is our cross different
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2014, 01:52:16 PM »
However, many people wear crosses (I don't know what to call them) with the 3 bumps on each end. Sometimes they are more like "plus" shape than a cross (the horizontal bar is centered).

I just realized the other day that the cross I used to make something I hung from my car rearview mirror when I first got the car (12 years ago?) is one of the kind the Greeks tend to use in their jewelry. Prophetic? (lol just kidding - but I thought it was cool that I did that without even knowing)
That style is called a budded cross. There's a Wikipedia article that describes this and many other crosses (not necessarily Christian). It's a fascinating overload of trivia. I have no idea how many of them are actually used with any sort of regularity by the Orthodox.

We're still in the early stages of completing the interior of our church building that we bought last year. Our bishop gave clear instructions to use the budded cross in the nave rather than the three-barred cross, saying that "we're not Russian". (That wasn't intended as any sort of put-down, but rather His Grace is trying to emphasize our own traditions.) We do have a three-barred cross - and a rather large one at that - in the fellowship hall. The bishop made no mention of that.

Thank you for the info. I like the budded cross then. Then again, I like a number of Cross designs. I think that may be my favorite though. I still wear a small "Baptist cross" though.

I will have to take a look at that article. Sounds interesting. :)  Thank you.
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Let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Offline scamandrius

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Re: why is our cross different
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2014, 08:32:55 PM »
The three barred cross is not 'the' Orthodox cross, rather it is one of many styles used in different national Orthodox churches across the globe. There is a detailed discussion of this subject on this thread from a few year's back:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=33297.0 Of course I wouldn't take all of the answers as being accurate, but there is a pretty good discussion there. While almost exclusively used by Russians, Ukrainians and Rusyns, it is rarely, if ever, found in the Greek or Arabic tradition. It is also used by eastern Catholic Ukrainians and Rusyns.

We are an Antiochian church, but our parish seems obsessed with putting Russian crosses on signs to our church, our church building, even on our pews.  The eventual Slavic hegemony marches on.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: why is our cross different
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2014, 08:37:47 PM »
We are an Antiochian church, but our parish seems obsessed with putting Russian crosses on signs to our church, our church building, even on our pews.  The eventual Slavic hegemony marches on.

Slavic hegemony at the highest levels:

"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: why is our cross different
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2014, 08:39:34 PM »
The three barred cross is not 'the' Orthodox cross, rather it is one of many styles used in different national Orthodox churches across the globe. There is a detailed discussion of this subject on this thread from a few year's back:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=33297.0 Of course I wouldn't take all of the answers as being accurate, but there is a pretty good discussion there. While almost exclusively used by Russians, Ukrainians and Rusyns, it is rarely, if ever, found in the Greek or Arabic tradition. It is also used by eastern Catholic Ukrainians and Rusyns.

We are an Antiochian church, but our parish seems obsessed with putting Russian crosses on signs to our church, our church building, even on our pews.  The eventual Slavic hegemony marches on.


You have pews!?!?!

 ;)

Offline Anna.T

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Re: why is our cross different
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2014, 09:04:58 PM »
The three barred cross is not 'the' Orthodox cross, rather it is one of many styles used in different national Orthodox churches across the globe. There is a detailed discussion of this subject on this thread from a few year's back:  http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=33297.0 Of course I wouldn't take all of the answers as being accurate, but there is a pretty good discussion there. While almost exclusively used by Russians, Ukrainians and Rusyns, it is rarely, if ever, found in the Greek or Arabic tradition. It is also used by eastern Catholic Ukrainians and Rusyns.

We are an Antiochian church, but our parish seems obsessed with putting Russian crosses on signs to our church, our church building, even on our pews.  The eventual Slavic hegemony marches on.


You have pews!?!?!

 ;)

The horror ...

The Antiochian AND the Greek church have pews here. the Antiochian inherited theirs, but I found out last weekend the Greek purposely installed them ...  ::)
Aγιος ὁ Θεός, Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός, Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος, ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς

Let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

Offline genesisone

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Re: why is our cross different
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2014, 11:01:58 AM »

The horror ...

The Antiochian AND the Greek church have pews here. the Antiochian inherited theirs, but I found out last weekend the Greek purposely installed them ...  ::)
When we bought our building (formerly a RC chapel) we removed the two front pews to make room for a solea, and removed pews at the back as well so that there would be plenty of room for standing. Our congregation is definitely mixed on this one. That being said, it appears that those who attend most frequently (Orthros, all/most Lenten and Holy Week services, etc.) are the standers. We've had some services on those occasions with no one in the pews. Those who attend only DL head straight for the pews. There are variations on these patterns, of course. Some of us would like to remove more pews, but we don't want to discourage those who expect them.

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: why is our cross different
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2014, 11:05:48 AM »
my church has some pews too..


*sighs*   it was a joke...in particular because someone has had issues with other peoples worship spaces in the past...and lo we find out there are pews in theirs......


remove the pew from thine own eye......

Offline scamandrius

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Re: why is our cross different
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2014, 11:27:49 AM »
You're sidetracking the issue. It's not about pews (Which I do abhor) but about the crosses which adorn them.  Stay on topic please.
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: why is our cross different
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2014, 11:29:47 AM »
You're sidetracking the issue. It's not about pews (Which I do abhor) but about the crosses which adorn them.  Stay on topic please.

yes Mr. Moderator!


oh wait.....

Offline scamandrius

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Re: why is our cross different
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2014, 11:34:06 AM »
Would it make a difference if a moderator said it?  Right is right.
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: why is our cross different
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2014, 11:37:50 AM »
Would it make a difference if a moderator said it?  Right is right.


Threads go off topic -all- the time....you don't visit all those to tell them to get back on topic.

I apologize for making a joke at your expense.



Offline scamandrius

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Re: why is our cross different
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2014, 12:49:49 PM »
Sometimes, the deviation from topic is understandable. It was not in this case. 
I seek the truth by which no man was ever harmed--Marcus Aurelius

Those who do not read  history are doomed to get their facts from Hollywood--Anonymous

What earthly joy remains untouched by grief?--St. John Damascene