[It is under Moscow. To look down on the canonical Orthodox church there for that reason would be hypocritical.]
Serge: You are missing the whole point. It is UNDER Moscow to the same degree that the Ukrainian Catholic Church is UNDER Rome. And, you are right, it is hypocritical, in that respect, for the UC's to condemn the canonical Orthodox for being subservient to Moscow while they themselves are just as subservient to Rome. probably even more so.
[But I’ve never met a Ukrainian Catholic who denied he was under Rome — that pretty much defines who they are, at least vs. the Russian Orthodox, while at the same time aspects of Russian culture define them the other way as not Polish.]
Oh come on Serge! I have never met a Ukrainian Catholic yet that will admit to being UNDER Rome. The terminology used is 'IN COMMUNION WITH' but never 'UNDER THE AUTHORITY OF' Rome. They will go to any extreme necessary rather than imply they are under the authority of Rome in any way, shape, or form. And you know that as well as I do. Any type of terminology or identity that portrays them as part of the Papal Catholic Church is rebuffed and even considered as insulting to them.
[The "we had no idea we had become Catholic we thought we were still Orthodox" story is bull, as if our ancestors were all village idiots.]
Sorry Lance but this was told to me on more than one occasion by the older people when I was a kid both in my home parish as well as my present parish. There were many parishes in the 'Old Country' where the word 'Pravoslavny' (Orthodox) was still used in the Liturgy and where the Popes name was never mentioned. The local Bishops name was commemorated instead. Look in the archives of the Byzantine Forum where this is confirmed. I remember reading it while I was still actively participating in that Forum.
And, besides, many of the immigrants that came over in the later part of the 19th and early part of the twentieth century, though not village idiots by a long shot, were, never the less, poorly educated.
If your claim is so true why is the "Orthodox' identity so strong after 400+ years? Why are so many people identifying themselves, or are now being told, that they are 'Orthodox In Communion with Rome'? Could it be that in Ukraine a whole generation and a half have been brought up with an Orthodox identity and this is a way to dupe them into believing they still are even though their parish has vowed allegiance to the Pope?
[Too many changes were introduced (Sacred Heart devotions, Rosary, First Holy Communion, Filioque, Commeration of the Pope, no Teplota, etc.) for them not to know they were in communion with the Pope, especially those of the American diaspora.]
These changes were mostly introduced AFTER the people I had talked to had immigrated. My grandparents never heard of such things while they were in the 'old country'. They were mainly introduced here in America rather than the parts of eastern europe where the people I am referring to came from. The people I am referring to are people like my grandparents who returned to Orthodoxy before St Alexis Toth had any dealings with Bishop Ireland.
Point I was trying to make is why be hypocritical by labeling the UOC as a tool of Moscow while the UCC themselves are nothing more than a tool of Rome for the very same reasons. Neither Church is totally free or independent of a foreign Hierach. There is one big difference though. When the Moscow Patriarch visits Ukraine there is not one Ukrainian Orthodox Bishop who is required to kneel & bow down before him or kiss his hand, ring, or any other part of his body. So who is more subservient?
Probably the only thing you and I will ever agree on is that we'd both like to see a truly canonical autocephalous church in Ukraine with its own Patriarch. Only problem is that I see him as an Orthodox Catholic Patriarch where you do not.
Because if he is 'In Communion with Rome' he and the church he presides over, will never be truly autocephalous. Unless of course, Rome changes its existing administrative policies which stipulate that to be 'In Communion with it' also places it under Romes authority to the degree that Rome itself stipulates. And that has about as much of a chance as a snowball in hell.
[If we did not we would be Orthodox. And I am unaware of any Eastern Catholic Church that teaches otherwise. If any officially use the terminology "in Communion with Rome",]
So why is the term 'ORTHODOX IN COMMUNION WITH ROME' being used so often and by so many of you?