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Author Topic: When do you think the 3,5 years of the Antichrist will come?  (Read 2498 times) Average Rating: 0
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Ntinos
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« on: April 04, 2005, 03:23:04 PM »

Regardless of my mad I am in believing we are very close to the end (I voted in 5-10 years from now!  :satan:), I would like to know what most of you believe on the issue, and more important why you believe the Antichrist's reign will come at that time. The question is not about when Jesus will return to Earth in the Second Coming, but strictly of when you believe the reign of the Antichrist will take place.

Any additional comments on the subject are welcome!
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« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2005, 03:29:45 PM »

I chose 'other'

I believe he came long ago, and shall be with us until the second comming of our Lord. For the prophecies of Scripture speak of his imminent coming. He came, and has been continuing attacking the Church, the heresies, the schisms, and the conquests by the infidels are all the acts of anti-christs.
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« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2005, 03:32:52 PM »

I chose 'other'

I believe he came long ago, and shall be with us until the second comming of our Lord. For the prophecies of Scripture speak of his imminent coming. He came, and has been continuing attacking the Church, the heresies, the schisms, and the conquests by the infidels are all the acts of anti-christs.

Then what of the 3,5 years? Did they happen as well, or is the teaching of the Book of the Revalations symbolic in it's teaching on the specific issue (as it is with most prophecies in there)?
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« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2005, 03:42:32 PM »



Then what of the 3,5 years? Did they happen as well, or is the teaching of the Book of the Revalations symbolic in it's teaching on the specific issue (as it is with most prophecies in there)?

As my priest pointed out during a recent series of classes he held on Revelation, to the Jewish mind, the number seven represents completeness or perfection.  Thus, 3 and a half is completeness broken.  When that broken completeness is applied to the Church, it is most clearly understood as a time of persecution or heresies, much like GisC referred to.
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Ntinos
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« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2005, 03:46:08 PM »

That was quite interesting, I have to admit. So, 6 means close to completeness, but not complete, right?

Still, the Revalations Book is pretty clear in mentioning 1260 days, or 42 months, instead of just 3,5 years... Yet it always seems to mention the Lord will shorten those days.
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« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2005, 03:58:44 PM »

Let's see,

Rev. 12:1 And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 
Rev. 12:2 she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery.

 
Generally the woman clothed with the sun is the Church. Specifically it is the soul of those who have been baptized and have put on Christ, the Sun of Righteousness, in which case, the moon symbolizes the instability of our nature which Christ puts under our feet, that is, under our control. The crown of twelve stars has many meanings, but when we take the woman to mean the soul, it symbolizes the soul's victory over the senses and time - adding 5 for the senses and 7 for time you make 12 - and her perfection in moral, natural and theological philosophy - 4 for the cardinal virtues, which define morality, 5 for the contemplation of God through created nature and 3 for the three hypostases of the Holy Trinity, which are the "object" of theology.

The child is none other than the believers, which the Church (leaders) like St. Paul labor to give birth (Gal. 4:19), that is, form after the likeness of Christ, which likeness mystically is nothing else than Christ living in their soul.

Rev. 12:5 she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, 
Rev. 12:6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which to be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
 

In another sense the woman also represents our human nature, which put on the sun, that is Divinity, and gave birth to Christ (male child), whom we know that He was caught up to God and to His throne. This alludes to the incarnation of Christ, the sign which struck with awe the angels (heaven) spoken in verse one. “And the woman fled into the wilderness.” We said that the woman is symbolic of the human nature, so it represents each one of us who are baptized in Christ (and mystically united to Him as one) and who are still in this world (wilderness). “Where she has a place prepared by God, in which to be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.” The place prepared by God is again the Church (teachers/ priests/ spiritual fathes etc), which the Lord entrusted with the service of feeding His word to us, the woman, our soul, until we grow in holiness.

The number, thousand represents perfection in theological knowledge for it is the product of multiplying ten, the number of perfection, three times, the symbol of theology. Two hundred is the product of multiplying ten with four and five (4X5X10=200) and it symbolizes perfection in moral (4) and natural (5) philosophy. Sixty is the number of the habitual practice of the commandments and especially works of love, as it was explained in another thread.

So to sum it up you can say the appearance of the woman, as a sign in the first verse, is Christ’s soul (moon is His flesh), which became a model, or a guiding sign for us to follow until we become like Him (ver. 6). When this happens the soul is said to have completed the 1260 days, which, by the way, are symbolic (the days) of Christ’s virtues, since they illumine the soul of him who acquires them.

(adapted from St. Maximus)

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« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2005, 04:06:29 PM »

Other:

Because every generation tries to intrepret Revelations and sees the end of times as currently happening. This shows the true meaning of the text as understood by Orthodoxy as not tied to a particular person, place, time, or event, but rather telling about the whole experience of Christendom throughout ages. Since when is Scripture supposed to be intrepreted ONLY for a single event or only to a single people?  It's eternal.

7 is fullness and completeness--totallity (How many times should I forgive? 'Unto 70 times 7.)
6 is alllacking and incompletelness--the opposite of 7 (This is where we get 666 as a number for the devil--the lacking and complete 'other' than the Trinity as "777"
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« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2005, 04:13:46 PM »

Also some notes on Revelation chapter 9 so that we get a better idea:

Rev. 9:1 And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key of the shaft of the bottomless pit; 
Rev. 9:2 he opened the shaft of the bottomless pit, and from the shaft rose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft. 
Rev. 9:3 Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth; 
Rev. 9:4 they were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green growth or any tree, but only those of mankind who have not the seal of God upon their foreheads; 
Rev. 9:5 they were allowed to torture them for five months, but not to kill them, and their torture was like the torture of a scorpion, when it stings a man. 
Rev. 9:6 And in those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, and death will fly from them. 
Rev. 9:7 In appearance the locusts were like horses arrayed for battle; on their heads were what looked like crowns of gold; their faces were like human faces.
 

Star is the Devil; Abyss is the depth of the human heart; Earth is our flesh. So the devil has been given access to our heart to darkened our mind (sun) and thoughts (air) with evil thoughts (smoke), "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander" (Mt. 15:19). Great furnace, understand to mean the passionate (fiery) desires of the flesh, which the demons (locusts) provoke in us in order to lead us to sin. They are likened to locusts because they eat the grass of the earth, that is the good thoughts, which sprout forth when we read scripture (plant seeds). They also eat every green growth, that is every good deed, and every tree, signifying those established in virtue but who have not sealed their mind (forehead) with the orthodox faith and the unceasing invocation of the Jesus Prayer.

The Five months represent the sensible world because of the five senses, which the demons make use to lead us into sin if we choose what is transient (money, pleasures, etc), instead of what is eternal, "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life, is not of the Father but is of the world" (1 John. 2:16).

Btw, seven year tribulation is the anguish of the soul, which, on account of its laxity in performing the commandments or total unbelief has become a house of the seven spirits, that is of the seven principal passions or vices, "When the unclean spirit has gone out of a man, he passes through waterless places seeking rest, but he finds none. Then he says, `I will return to my house from which I came.' And when he comes he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. Then he goes and brings with him seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first. So shall it be also with this evil generation" (Mt. 12:43-45). All of us are subject to this tribulation, which we are called to suffer willingly, yet not give in. It is also called seven year tribulation, to mean, that it is experienced only in this age - for present time is seven-fold (weekly) - whereas in the age to come there will be no sorrow or anything of that sort, but only unspeakable joy in the eternal presence of God.

Horses ready for battle signify the exciting aspect (desiring) of the soul, - those who know horse physiology will understand the link; crowns of gold stand for the passion of greed, that is, love for money and human faces the passion of vainglory, men's praise. This alludes to the three temptations of Christ, which all of us are called to face.

... and so on ...

"He who endures to the end and does not give into sin will be saved."

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Ntinos
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« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2005, 04:26:40 PM »

Actually, when the 3rd Angel blew his trumpet, you didn't consider that an internal Chernobil for each man's life, or something like that?

"...+¦+¦+¦ -ä++ -î+++++++¦ +¦-à -ä++-ì +å-ê+¦++++++-é" (++-à +¦-ü+¦+++¦+¦+¼ Chernobil)
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« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2005, 04:41:45 PM »

Actually, when the 3rd Angel blew his trumpet, you didn't consider that an internal Chernobil for each man's life, or something like that?

"...+¦+¦+¦ -ä++ -î+++++++¦ +¦-à -ä++-ì +å-ê+¦++++++-é" (++-à +¦-ü+¦+++¦+¦+¼ Chernobil)

Rev. 8:10 The third angel blew his trumpet, and a great star fell from heaven, blazing like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the fountains of water. 
Rev. 8:11 The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died of the water, because it was made bitter.


Star is the Devil and in this context the first order of demons who teach men heresy. Wormwood symbolizes the bitterness of heretical teachings; rivers are the preachers and fountains the leaders of such teachings (water).

Just make sure your mind is not infected by the spiritual Chernobil, and if historically the prophecy has been fulfilled in what you say, it is irrelevant to your salvation.

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Ntinos
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« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2005, 04:54:22 PM »

What you're actually suggesting is that the whole book of the Revalation is written in regard with your inner self, and your salvation, right? (When I say 'your', I mean every christian). Is there any way to prove this?
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« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2005, 04:58:17 PM »

Didn't some of the early Christians think that it was the end of days soon after Christ's assencion? 

I didn't vote, but that's because I have faith and hope that God will have mercy on us either way, and we have no way of knowing, no matter what the books say.
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« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2005, 05:12:20 PM »

What you're actually suggesting is that the whole book of the Revalation is written in regard with your inner self, and your salvation, right? (When I say 'your', I mean every christian). Is there any way to prove this?

Well Ntinos, that is how my religious teacher in high-school explained it. She also said that it has many historical interpretations, which they do not follow chronological order - and which are given my God for the sole purpose of arousing people to repentance. Eventually the end will come of course, but we need to concentrate on our selves and experience the revelation of God in our heart.

icxn

PS. St. Maximus the Confessor gives a lot of hints (of the above) in his writings, but I wouldn't suggest that you try and read him. If you have a spiritual father consult him.
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« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2005, 05:30:32 PM »

My theologist in my old school (I'm at university now) warned me that there is no way to explain the Book of the Revalations in a large scale. I will ask a priest about it, although I'm still convinced the Book writes about events, not the fight of the soul for salvation.
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« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2005, 12:54:22 PM »

God's word says that the AntiChrist will be revealed as the man who enters the 'Holy of Holies' in the Jerusalem Temple and declares himself to be God. The Temple first needs to be rebuilt, but that is high on the Jewish list of priorities. Taken with everything else, 5-10 years does not seem unreasonable to me.
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« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2005, 01:13:47 PM »

On the other hand the Antichrist of the flesh is defiling our 'Holy of Holies', ie our mind almost every day:

Quote:

"The passions lying hidden in the soul provide the demons with the means of arousing impassioned thoughts in us. Then, fighting the intellect through these thoughts, they force it to give its assent to sin. When it has been overcome, they lead it to sin in the mind; and when this has been done they induce it, captive as it is, to commit the sin in action. Having thus desolated the soul by means of these thoughts, the demons then retreat, taking the thoughts with them, and only the spectre or idol of sin remains in the intellect. Reffering to this our Lord says, "When you see the abominable idol of desolation standing in the holy place (let him who reads understand)..."(Matt. 24 : 15). For man's intellect is a holy place and a temple of God in which the demons, having desolated the soul by means of impassioned thoughts, set up the idol of sin. That these things have already taken place in history no one, I think, who has read Josephus will doubt: though some say that they will also come to pass in the time of the Antichrist." - Saint Maximus, in The Philokalia, second century on love, number 31.

"...For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, "I will live in them and move among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people." (2 Cor. 6:16)

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