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Author Topic: De Gloria Olivae and the next Pope.  (Read 27557 times) Average Rating: 0
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Bogoliubtsy
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« on: April 03, 2005, 06:11:31 PM »

Interesting... I've seen a number of webpages which include writings that interpret St Malachy's prophecies concerning the next Pope  in the same way. Here's a quote from the following page:

This is why the Pope, as the inspirer for this communication system, has the duty to lead the movement of reunification of the religions - in their essence not in their symbols or their expression of faith. Previous Popes have started to create bridges, such as John XXIII and John Paul II, but much remains to be done until religion can no more be a pretext for destruction and death. The next Pope, “De Gloria Olivae”, is the man who will achieve this task and bring the Revelation.


http://www.degloriaolivae.org/pages/1/index.htm
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« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2005, 06:21:03 PM »

The same prophecy states that there will be another Pope after "Gloria D'Olivae", called "Petrus Romanus", and then it's the End of the World (or End of the See of St. Peter).

However, "De Gloria Olivae" means "FROM THE GLORY OF THE OLIVES". We should recall that the Order of St. Benedict is also known as the Olivertan Order, and the specific Order often takes pride in a great Pope coming from this Order shortly before the End of the World. Therefore, I believe this man will be a Benedictine Monk, and this is what St. Malachy actually meant with De Gloria Olivage. It should be clear in 20-30 days. One case doesn't exclude the other, since it might be a double prophesy, as the case was with some in the past.
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« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2005, 07:45:56 PM »

Malachy O'Morgair, Archbishop of Armagh, was born in 1094 and died in 1148. He is not an Orthodox saint, and his prophecies are not part of the Orthodox tradition.
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« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2005, 07:58:41 PM »

Malachy O'Morgair, Archbishop of Armagh, was born in 1094 and died in 1148. He is not an Orthodox saint, and his prophecies are not part of the Orthodox tradition.

Truth has been known to find its ways outside the borders of the visible Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2005, 09:28:15 PM »

Quote from: Felipe Ortiz
Malachy O'Morgair, Archbishop of Armagh, was born in 1094 and died in 1148. He is not an Orthodox saint, and his prophecies are not part of the Orthodox tradition.
Truth has been known to find its ways outside the borders of the visible Orthodox Church.

I do not deny this.

I just think it is worthy to warn Orthodox Christian readers that we are not talking about an Orthodox Saint, but about a Roman Catholic hierarch. Hence any Orthodox Christian can freely evaluate his authority.

Personally, I've read a few things about this subject that made me think that this prophecy is most probably a forgery. It was said to be written before 1143 and supposedly hidden in the Vatican archives during more than four centuries; so it was first published in 1595. But it is striking that virtually all the popes mentioned before 1595 (the publication date) are called by titles that make direct and obvious reference to their names (baptism, family or cardinal names), religious order or coat of arms, while after 1595 this regular association disappears almost utterly. The correspondence between the title and the respective pope becames much more enigmatic and metaphoric; almost none of the titles bears any resemblance with elements of the Pope's name or coat of arms.

Besides that, it was also noted that the author of the prophecy made precisely the same errors of the XVI-century historian Onuphrius Panvinius. For instance: Panvinius wrote that Eugene IV was a Celestinian priest (when actually he was Augustinian). The title prescribed to him is Lupa coelestina. Panvinius also wrote that John XXII was son of a shoemaker (what is not true). So his title in the prophecy is De sutore Osseo (Of the cobbler of Osseo). This pattern is exactly what one could expect if a XVI-century charlatan decided to write a fake prophecy based solely in the historical work of his contemporary Onuphrius Panvinius.
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« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2005, 03:31:41 AM »

Let's not rush to judgement. We only have to wait a few days to see who the new Pope is, and then perhaps a few years to see if he really is going to be described best by the "Olive branch"!  Grin

I would bet the next Pope will take the name Pius (a guess).
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« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2005, 03:45:23 PM »

A few comments:

St. Malachy's "prophecies" are considered a forgery and not accepted in any way by the Catholic Church.

One branch of the Benedictines are known as the Olivetans not the entire Order.  They have very few members maybe one hundred.  None are bishops let alone cardinals. 

None of the cardinals eligible for the conclave are even Benedictine. 


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« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2005, 04:01:40 PM »

Actually, while looking at cardinal candidates for the See of St. Peter, I found 2 who studied in a Benedictine Order, and one who was a complete monk in St. Benedict's Order, but I seem to have lost the URL to the site...

St. Malachy's prophesies have been true till now, or at least we managed to persuade ourselves they are true by giving each Pope a trait that suits his phrase.

EDIT: Isn't Cardinal Lustiger (Archbishop of Paris) a Benedictine?
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« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2005, 10:05:52 AM »

Ntinos,

Paul Augustin Cardinal Mayer OSB is the only cardinal who is a Benedictine, however he is over 80 and ineligible for the conclave.  It is highly unlikely any cardinal outside the conclave will be elected.

"or at least we managed to persuade ourselves they are true by giving each Pope a trait that suits his phrase."

Exactly.

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« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2005, 03:32:08 PM »

Perhaps we're rushing a bit too much to judge the prophecy of St. Malachy wrong? What proof is there that this is a charlatan's work, and not real prophecy (not necessarily from God...)?
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« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2005, 03:41:19 PM »

Quote
What proof is there that this is a charlatan's work, and not real prophecy (not necessarily from God...)?

Considering that your church does not recognize him as a saint, I think that's a good place for you to start.
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« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2005, 03:46:47 PM »

Considering that your church does not recognize him as a saint, I think that's a good place for you to start.

And next try the point about how even his own church considers his prophecies a forgery.
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« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2005, 03:53:12 PM »

And next try the point about how even his own church considers his prophecies a forgery.

For instance: the arguments I have mentioned above are a very short condensation of a rebuttal written by a Roman Catholic Brazilian priest.
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« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2005, 04:32:55 PM »

My church doesn't really have a word on the issue, does she? As far as I know, my Church says Catholics burn in Hell  :flame: and are by no means Saints...

The prophecies could be considered fake by the Roman Catholic Church, but this could be for protective reasons, no? I mean, if they accepted Malachy's prophecies as real, and thye didn't turn out to be true, how ridiculed would they become?

Other than that, does someone know the historical background of how these "prophecies"? How they came to light?
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« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2005, 04:35:52 PM »

Quote
As far as I know, my Church says Catholics burn in Hell   and are by no means Saints...

And if this, therefore, is the case, then any so-called prophecy by any post-schism saints of the Roman Catholic Church should not even enter into your radar, let alone leave you fretting about their viability.
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« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2005, 05:05:06 PM »

Perhaps we're rushing a bit too much to judge the prophecy of St. Malachy wrong? What proof is there that this is a charlatan's work, and not real prophecy (not necessarily from God...)?

Well, there is a field of education in reading and understanding old manuscripts or writings called "Paleography" that can find clues if something is a fake.  Some points are: How old is the paper/parchment?  "Does the ink fit the technology of the purported time of writing?  Is the scrpt/print/writing the kind that was done when this is supposed to have been written or not? (as a f'rinstance if some old paper was found with a type script that was known ot have been designed at a later date, the writings would not be from the date of the paper).  Are there similarites in errors, mistakes, wordings with other works that might show that there was copying.

http://medievalwriting.50megs.com/whatis.htm

Out of idle curiosity, how could something be a "real prophecy" and notnecessarily be from God? 

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« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2005, 05:37:24 PM »

Real prophecy refers to not being a forgery. Not being from God refers to being from Satan, like many ancient Greek prophecies. The Devil usually gives false visions in order to mislead.
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« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2005, 05:40:22 PM »

Real prophecy refers to not being a forgery. Not being from God refers to being from Satan, like many ancient Greek prophecies. The Devil usually gives false visions in order to mislead.

Well, if it's a false vision, that would make it a forgery, which means it's not a real prophecy.
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« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2005, 11:12:21 PM »

As far as I know, my Church says Catholics burn in Hell and are by no means Saints...


This is not the true Orthodox view.  Orthodox do notr predict salvation for other faiths, only their own...

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« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2005, 12:54:36 AM »

Orthodox do not predict salvation for other faiths, only their own...

Generally we don't do that either. It's really God's decision all the way around. Actually, we believe that the Faithful will be judged harsher than those outside the Church, and Priests and Bishops even harsher yet.
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« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2005, 12:14:26 PM »

The Catholic Church has not condemned the Prophecies of Malachy. Neither have they approved them. No matter what happens we ought to grow in holiness. We ought to strive more and more everyday to Grow in God's Grace. Everyday we are closer to the end, our end, or the last judgment. If we allow ourselves to embrace God and hold nothing back, we will be just fine.

BE NOT AFRAID- Pope John Paul 2 
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« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2005, 12:24:08 PM »

Just my guess:
If the Churches manage to unite during this Pope's period, then the next Pope will be the Gloria De Olivae. If is generally the cause of peace around the world, then we would also rush to say that he's the Glory of the Olive.

But then again, if the new Pope comes from Italy or Spain or any other Meditteranean country, he could be the glory of the Olives.

The motto is far too general to be applied on a Pope. Considering Pope John Paul II was also a champion of Peace, he was also Gloria De Olivae. And many other Popes before him, who were champions of peace. St. Malachy's prophecy is most likely a collection of cunningly used mottos that we can apply to any Pope on the throne.

And then again, if all these fail, we can always come up with ideas about, let's say... how he loves olives, or something else equally suitable.

This is no prophecy.
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« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2005, 01:52:28 PM »

Ntinos, you got it. This alleged prophecy can clearly be divided in two sections: before and after 1595 -- the year of its publication.

Almost all the mottos of the first section are quite accurate and obvious references to the Popes' names, religious orders or coats of arms. The exactness and objectivity of this first section is the reason of the popularity of Malachy's (or the pseudo-Malachy's) prophecy.

But the mottos of the second section are written in a completely different fashion. They are too vague, general and sibylline, much like the horoscopes you can find in your local newspaper. They almost never bear any resemblance with those same elements of identification so constantly stressed in the first section (name or coat of arms). The interpreters of the second section of the prophecy need to refer to the "general meaning" of each pontificate, or to casual details of the Pope's biography -- and they almost never need to do this when they interpret the mottos of the first section, because their interpretation is too easy. But these mottos of the second section are so general that you could apply virtually any of them to any Pope of the second section, and you would still find "valid" interpretations -- much like you could also succeed if you tried to apply today's newspaper horoscope of any sign to any person.

Regarding the historical background of these prophecies: according to my sources (a book in Portuguese by a Roman Catholic priest that does not believe in them), they were first published in 1595 at Venice by a Benedictine monk, Arnold Wion of Douai, as part of his book Lignum Vitae, Ornamentum et Decor Ecclesiae. Monk Arnold does not mention where did he found them, where were the original manuscripts, which evidence did he had that their author was indeed the Archbishop Malachy of Armagh, etc. He simply states: Malachy "is said to have written a few booklets, but by him I do not know but a prophecy regarding the Sovereign Pontiffs. As it is short and was never printed before, I copy it here, in order to satisfy the desire of many". That's all we know about the historical background of this prophecy.

Given our lack of knowledge regarding the origins of the text and the features of composition, with the striking division of the text in two sections utterly different in style (and even the presence, in the first section, of the same errors and inaccuracies that one could find in the work of a XVI-century historian of the papacy, well known by his contemporaries), it seems likely that it is a forgery -- by Monk Arnold or any other person -- written short before 1595. It seems that they were not actually written by Malachy, let alone they are real prophecies.
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« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2005, 09:40:09 AM »

Very good post, Felipe. It's a matter of reading with discernment; looking at changes in style or wording.  Not all words in print/writing are equal. 


(And definitely just because something is posted on a website, it isn't automatically reliable. check to find out who's putting up the site.  Where are they coming from, as it were. Why would someone be promulgating the "Prophecy" of St.Malachy? )


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« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2005, 03:40:53 PM »

Jose Cardinal da Cruz Policarpo, Patriarch of Lisbon, is an amazingly strong pastor and well-respected theologian who fits both the Benedictine criteria of the St. Malachy Prophesy and, prophesy notwithstanding, is uniquely situated to bridge geographic and cultural differences dividing Latin America, Europe, and Africa. God will guide the Cardinal electors, but Cardinal da Cruz Policarpo should be shortlisted certainly.   
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« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2005, 06:56:29 AM »

I endorse Celt Hendo's statement.Cardinal P"oli"carpo also studied and was the rector of the seminary at "Olivais".Hree is an excerpt from the catholic News Service.
http://www.catholicnews.com/jpii/cardinals/0501963.htm

Portuguese cardinal could be a bridge candidate in conclave

By Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- A longtime theologian and author, Portuguese Cardinal Jose da Cruz Policarpo of Lisbon is seen as an outside candidate for pope -- a possible bridge candidate between Europe and Latin America, where Portuguese and Spanish are the two main languages.

For most of his priesthood the 69-year-old cardinal has been associated with seminary formation and with the Portuguese Catholic University, where he taught and later was rector.

Even after becoming patriarch of Lisbon in 1998, his close ties with the university continued because the office automatically makes him grand chancellor of the university.

He is one of only three Latin-rite bishops in Europe with the title of patriarch and the only one outside Italy. The other two are the patriarch of Venice and, when a new one is elected, the pope -- whose titles include "patriarch of the West."

Cardinal Policarpo has written several books, including "St. Bernard and Marian Theology" and "An Ethical Order for Peace," and is the author of numerous articles in theological journals. His writings cover a range of issues from Marian spirituality -- reflecting the Portuguese devotion to Our Lady of Fatima -- to the moral and spiritual challenges of modern society and the role of the church in civil society and culture.

His interest in contemporary questions of faith was evident even in the late 1960s when, as a young priest doing graduate studies at Rome's Gregorian University, he defended a thesis on the theology of non-Christian religions and a subordinate paper on "The Signs of the Times."

As head of the Portuguese bishops' conference since 1999, he has been outspoken in the defense of democracy and respect for human rights in the former Portuguese colonies of East Timor and Mozambique.

Born Feb. 26, 1936, in Alvorninha, Portugal, Jose da Cruz Policarpo has been a priest since 1961 and a bishop since 1978. He became patriarch of Lisbon in 1998 and a cardinal in 2001.

He studied for the priesthood at the minor seminaries of Santarem and Almada and completed his theological studies at Christ the King Seminary in Olivais.

Following ordination he was sent to Rome for further studies at Gregorian University, where he earned his licentiate in dogmatic theology in 1968.

From 1963 to 1968 he also taught and served as vice rector at the minor seminary in Penafirme, Portugal.

In 1970 he began teaching at the Portuguese Catholic University and simultaneously serving as rector of the Olivais seminary.

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« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2005, 05:23:08 AM »

If the 'Gloria De Olivae' motto is true the next Pope will not be a Benedictine, he will be a Jew. The last Pope will be a Benedictine, and we're not into tribulation period yet.
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« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2005, 11:53:53 AM »

If your life, belief's and faith are in order to the best of your ability, why worry about it ?

Getting others to believe and return/come to the Lord is #1 if the above is completed.

My 2 cents worth.

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« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2005, 12:17:31 PM »

Ntinos:

If the next Pope has to be a Jew, then Cardinal Lustiger of Paris is it: he is a convert from Judaism.

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« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2005, 01:25:10 PM »

In the Coptic Church, a diocesan bishop cannot be elected as Patriarch.  I guess the idea is that a bishop is "married" to his diocese for life.  Therefore, in the past, almost all Patriarchs were selected from the ranks of the monastics or even (but much more rarely) from the laity.

This recently changed when the late Pope Kyrillos VI started the practice of "general" bishops, those that were ordained not for a diocese but rather for a specific service or function for the churcb as a whole. Examples include a general bishop for youth sevrices, social services, education, etc...

HH Pope Shenouda III was a general bishop of education and it was determined that his nomination to become patriarch was not in violation of previous church practice of not ordaining a diocesan bishop. 

My question to those familiar with RC conclave is this....is it possible for a monk to be elected as Pope?  I realize that it is probably unlikely but what are the actual rules?

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« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2005, 01:50:06 PM »

Any Catholic can be elected pope.
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« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2005, 03:27:47 PM »

Theoretically, yes, any Catholic male can be elected Pope.

Realistically and based on the 1996 Apostolic Constitution "Universi Dominici Gregis" issued by Pope John Paul II and on the Codes of Canons (for East and West) of the Catholic Church, that person must at least be a priest because of the necessity of episcopal ordination upon his acceptance of election to canonically exercise the office of Roman(=Supreme) Pontiff.

If history and tradition are considered, the next Pope should be a Cardinal (Latin Rite or Eastern Rite), most probably from among the 115 Cardinals (3 are Eastern rite) allowed into concalve this Monday, April 18th. ( 2 conclave Cardinals: Cardinal Sin, retired Archbishop of Manila, and Cardinal Rivera, retired Archbishop of Monterrey, Mexico, will not be attending the conclave due to failing health.)

The last non-Cardinal who was elected Pope was Urban VI, the then Archbishop of Acerenza (Kingdom of Naples), who was Supreme Pontiff from 1378 through his death in 1389.

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« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2005, 01:51:51 PM »

As most of you have already pointed out, any Catholic can be elected pope.  It's not even required to be a priest - although that wouldn't happen in today's age.

As a former Catholic who studied for the priesthood (I have a very good seminary priest friend who is an assitant to Cardinal Lustiger), and as an Orthodox convert, I can only say that the prophecies of Malachy, whatever their origin or age, are in some cases astonishingly accurate.  In Orthodoxy and Catholicism, however, private revelations carry absolutely no weight whatsoever.  Scipture and Tradition are our sources of revelation.  As long as we keep this in mind, I think we can rest assured we are safe.  With regard to the prophecy of the most recent pope "De labore solis" (from the toil of the sun) it is fascinating that the day he was elected and the day he was buried were both days of solar eclipse.  In the middle ages, most had no idea what caused a solar eclipse - they thought the sun was "working hard" in some manner - hence, perhaps, the description.  Another fascinating recent pope, Pius IX had the description "Crux de Cruce" - cross from a cross.  This is possibly one of the most astonishingly accurate ones.  Pius IX suffered tremendous affronts from Victor Emmanuel, of the House of Savoy, who stole the papal states and tried to establish an Italian monarchy.  Most of Pius IX's pontificate was spent fighting this battle, and Pius IX called it his "cross".  Interestingly, the coat of arms of the House of Savoy bears a large white cross.  "Cross from a cross" couldn't have been more descriptive of this pope.

While as an Orthodox believer I disagree strongly with the twists that Catholicism has placed on the athority of the pope, purgatory, indulgences and even their "transactional" approach to sin and the sacraments, we still ackowledge him as the Bishop of Rome. I personally hope one day they will recognise that a full return to Orthodoxy could solve most of their problems - from priestly celibacy to episcopal collegiallity, but that's unlikely any time soon.  If you have a chance to read the documents of the Second Vatican Council, it reads like a strong attempt to return to Orthodox roots.  Unfortunately, it ended up being nothing more than a capitulation to protestantism. Let's hope that "De gloria olivae" brings his church back to its Orthodox roots.

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« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2005, 03:05:50 PM »

Who do you think, as a former Catholic, will be the next Pope?
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« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2005, 04:36:10 PM »

If you're following the prophecy of Malachy (or whoever made it up), it would point to the only Jewish cardinal - Lustiger.  Lustiger also taught at an Olivetan school at one time, I believe.  My guess is that it will be someone that isn't even on the "papabile" list - a dark horse that nobody even knows well.  We'll soon know!

Aren't you glad that we don't go through this brain damage in Orthodoxy?
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« Reply #35 on: April 14, 2005, 10:44:37 PM »

I can only say that the prophecies of Malachy, whatever their origin or age, are in some cases astonishingly accurate. In Orthodoxy and Catholicism, however, private revelations carry absolutely no weight whatsoever. Scipture and Tradition are our sources of revelation. As long as we keep this in mind, I think we can rest assured we are safe. With regard to the prophecy of the most recent pope "De labore solis" (from the toil of the sun) it is fascinating that the day he was elected and the day he was buried were both days of solar eclipse. In the middle ages, most had no idea what caused a solar eclipse - they thought the sun was "working hard" in some manner - hence, perhaps, the description. Another fascinating recent pope, Pius IX had the description "Crux de Cruce" - cross from a cross. This is possibly one of the most astonishingly accurate ones. Pius IX suffered tremendous affronts from Victor Emmanuel, of the House of Savoy, who stole the papal states and tried to establish an Italian monarchy. Most of Pius IX's pontificate was spent fighting this battle, and Pius IX called it his "cross". Interestingly, the coat of arms of the House of Savoy bears a large white cross. "Cross from a cross" couldn't have been more descriptive of this pope.




Sends shivers up my spine....

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« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2005, 01:08:09 PM »

Ntinos:

If the next Pope has to be a Jew, then Cardinal Lustiger of Paris is it: he is a convert from Judaism.

Amado

Did you mean Ratzinger? He is the new Pope... Benedict XVI

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« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2005, 01:33:15 PM »

Though I believe some of his theologies to be Judiazing, this pope is certainly not a Jew, infact he was a member of the Hitler Youth.
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« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2005, 01:43:31 PM »

Though I believe some of his theologies to be Judiazing, this pope is certainly not a Jew, infact he was a member of the Hitler Youth.

At at time when such membership was compulsory for every German youth, and he got out very quickly because he was enrolled at seminary.  His father was a virulent anti-Nazi who had to move the family a number of times due to his activities.  By your logic, every German who is in his late 70s is a Jew-hater because, for 99.9% of them, they were, at some point, members of the Hitler Youth.

What theologies do you find to be "Judaizing"?  I can understand your opposition to probably most of what Cardinal Ratzinger believes theologically, but I cannot for the life of me understand what you can find to be "Judaizing".
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« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2005, 01:48:40 PM »

Before making sensational statements like he was a Hitler Youth please provide the context of that statement:

"The son of a rural Bavarian police officer, Ratzinger was six when Hitler came to power in 1933.
 
His father, also called Joseph, was an anti-Nazi whose attempts to rein in the activities of Hitler's Brown Shirts forced the family to move home several times.

In 1937 Ratzinger's father retired and the family moved to Traunstein, a staunchly Catholic town in Bavaria close to the Fuhrer's mountain retreat in Berchtesgaden.

He joined the Hitler Youth aged 14, shortly after membership was made compulsory in 1941. He quickly won a dispensation on account of his training at a seminary.

'Ratzinger was only briefly a member of the Hitler Youth and not an enthusiastic one,' concluded John Allen, his biographer."

(By Justin Sparks, John Follain & Christopher Morgan, The Sunday Times, London)
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« Reply #40 on: April 19, 2005, 01:59:34 PM »

Though I believe some of his theologies to be Judiazing, this pope is certainly not a Jew, infact he was a member of the Hitler Youth.

Apparently there was a Bishop Lustiger of Paris, who was a convert from Judaism, I read he just retired... His name I think got mixed up with Cardinal  Rastinger... who is German and who's bio is noted on one of the above posts...
Anyhow, I was confused by the two names..maybe others are too.
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« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2005, 02:10:42 PM »

I think everyone should direct their attention to the name of the new pope Benedict XVI and what Ntinos post wrote "De Gloria Olivae" means "FROM THE GLORY OF THE OLIVES". We should recall that the Order of St. Benedict is also known as the Olivertan Order,
Well his name is Benedict. Is this not spooking anyone else?
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« Reply #42 on: April 19, 2005, 02:12:12 PM »

But he's NOT a Benedictine.
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« Reply #43 on: April 19, 2005, 02:16:39 PM »

Schultz,
What theologies do you find to be "Judaizing"? I can understand your opposition to probably most of what Cardinal Ratzinger believes theologically, but I cannot for the life of me understand what you can find to be "Judaizing".

I was making an (admitedly cryptic) reference to the issue of azymes.

('Whosoever says that our Lord Jesus Christ at the Mystical Last Supper used unleavened bread as do the Hebrews and not leavened bread, that is, raised bread, let him be far from us and under the anathema as one who thinks like a Jew and as one who introduces the doctrines of Appolinarios and of the Armenians into our Church, on which account let him be anathematized a second time.' --Third Anathema of the Endemousa Synod at Constantinople in 1583)


Deacon Lance,
I was actually just making a statement to set it at contrast with the claim that he was a Jew...as desparate as the Nazis were for manpower, they did not knowingly admited Jews into the ranks of the Hitler Youth. Ratzinger has enough Ecclesiological, Theological, Christological, and Phenomenological problems to criticize without being too concerned with his political preferences...infact I would be far less concerned if he was a loyal Nazi but held to the Orthodox Faith; social politics are generally superficial things relative to issues of the Faith.
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« Reply #44 on: April 19, 2005, 02:19:40 PM »

A quote from the Jerusalem Post re Ratzinger:

"The article also classifies Ratzinger as a "theological anti-Semite" for believing in Jesus so strongly that - gasp! - he thinks that everyone, even Jews, should accept him as the messiah.

To all this we should say, "This is news?!"
As the Sunday Times article admits, Ratzinger's membership in the Hitler Youth was not voluntary but compulsory; also admitted are the facts that the cardinal - only a teenager during the period in question - was the son of an anti-Nazi policeman, that he was given a dispensation from Hitler Youth activities because of his religious studies, and that he deserted the German army."

And from farther down:

"If he were truly a Nazi sympathizer, then it would undoubtedly have become evident during the past 60 years. Yet throughout his service in the church, Ratzinger has distinguished himself in the field of Jewish-Catholic relations.

As prefect of the Doctrine of the Faith, Ratzinger played an instrumental role in the Vatican's revolutionary reconciliation with the Jews under John Paul II. He personally prepared Memory and Reconciliation, the 2000 document outlining the church's historical "errors" in its treatment of Jews. And as president of the Pontifical Biblical Commission, Ratzinger oversaw the preparation of The Jewish People and Their Sacred Scriptures in the Christian Bible, a milestone theological explanation for the Jews' rejection of Jesus.

If that's theological anti-Semitism, then we should only be so lucky to "suffer" more of the same.

As for the Hitler Youth issue, not even Yad Vashem has considered it worthy of further investigation. Why should we?"

If anyone wants to read all of the piece, but not register for the Jerusalem Post: google on Jerusalem Post Ratzinger and then hit "Cached" on the Breaking News April 17, 2005 (it was the first link under the JP main page provided when I searched)

One would *hope* that this will put "Paid" to accusations of Nazi ties..... but it probably won't.  Or am I just being cynical? (No, because I *still* read people saying that Cantuar+ is a "pagan druid"... sigh.)

Ebor


 

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« Reply #45 on: April 19, 2005, 02:20:52 PM »

Is this not spooking anyone else?

No

In the last 2 weeks people on this forum have been saying that 1) it *had* to be Lustiger since he was born a Jew and "olives" mean Jews 2) it would be a Benedictine (because they had a subgroup called the Olivetians) and (iirc) that he would take the name "Pius".  Well, that's 3 for 3 that didn't happen.  So, sorry, I'm not spooked and I'm *not* looking for prophetic significance in every last thing. 

Maybe I've seen too much of people getting wound up over "prophecies" that turned out to be nonsense

Ebor

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« Reply #46 on: April 19, 2005, 02:37:57 PM »

"+£+++¦+¡+++¦ -Ç-ü++ -ä++-Ã  -ä+¡++++-Ã -é +++¦+¦+¼-ü+¦+¦+¦..."
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« Reply #47 on: April 19, 2005, 02:39:43 PM »

"+£+++¦+¡+++¦ -Ç-ü++ -ä++-Ã  -ä+¡++++-Ã -é +++¦+¦+¼-ü+¦+¦+¦..."


Translation please? 

Ebor
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« Reply #48 on: April 19, 2005, 02:41:06 PM »

"+£+++¦+¡+++¦ -Ç-ü++ -ä++-Ã  -ä+¡++++-Ã -é +++¦+¦+¼-ü+¦+¦+¦..."

Translation please?

I think it says "I want my MTV"
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« Reply #49 on: April 19, 2005, 02:55:29 PM »

"+£+++¦+¡+++¦ -Ç-ü++ -ä++-Ã  -ä+¡++++-Ã -é +++¦+¦+¼-ü+¦+¦+¦..."

I believe it roughly translates to 'do not think anyone fortunate until their end' (From Aristotle, right?)
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« Reply #50 on: April 19, 2005, 02:57:14 PM »

Yes. Over the ages, it came to be used as the phrase: "Do not judge anyone before their end".
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« Reply #51 on: April 19, 2005, 03:05:25 PM »

80.
Praise day at even, a wife when dead,
a weapon when tried, a maid when married,
ice when 'tis crossed, and ale when 'tis drunk

From the "Havamal" I first heard the opening as "Praise no day til it's over..."

http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/havamal.html

Some thoughts are universal

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« Reply #52 on: April 19, 2005, 04:28:48 PM »

Dear Guests,

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« Reply #53 on: April 19, 2005, 04:30:03 PM »

De Gloria Olivae Pope Prophecy Malachi Malachy Saint Prophecy Roman Catholic De Gloria Olivae Pope Prophecy Malachi Malachy Saint Prophecy Roman Catholic De Gloria Olivae Pope Prophecy Malachi Malachy Saint Prophecy Roman Catholic De Gloria Olivae Pope Prophecy Malachi Malachy Saint Prophecy Roman Catholic De Gloria Olivae Pope Prophecy Malachi Malachy Saint Prophecy Roman Catholic De Gloria Olivae Pope Prophecy Malachi Malachy Saint Prophecy Roman Catholic De Gloria Olivae Pope Prophecy Malachi Malachy Saint Prophecy Roman Catholic De Gloria Olivae Pope Prophecy Malachi Malachy Saint Prophecy Roman Catholic De Gloria Olivae Pope Prophecy Malachi Malachy Saint Prophecy Roman Catholic De Gloria Olivae Pope Prophecy Malachi Malachy Saint Prophecy Roman Catholic De Gloria Olivae Pope Prophecy Malachi Malachy Saint Prophecy Roman Catholic De Gloria Olivae Pope Prophecy Malachi Malachy Saint Prophecy Roman Catholic De Gloria Olivae Pope Prophecy Malachi Malachy Saint Prophecy Roman Catholic De Gloria Olivae Pope Prophecy Malachi Malachy Saint Prophecy Roman Catholic De Gloria Olivae Pope Prophecy Malachi Malachy Saint Prophecy Roman Catholic De Gloria Olivae Pope Prophecy Malachi Malachy Saint Prophecy Roman Catholic De Gloria Olivae Pope Prophecy Malachi Malachy Saint Prophecy Roman Catholic De Gloria Olivae Pope Prophecy Malachi Malachy Saint Prophecy Roman Catholic De Gloria Olivae Pope Prophecy Malachi Malachy Saint Prophecy Roman Catholic De Gloria Olivae Pope Prophecy Malachi Malachy Saint Prophecy Roman Catholic De Gloria Olivae Pope Prophecy Malachi Malachy Saint Prophecy Roman Catholic De Gloria Olivae Pope Prophecy Malachi Malachy Saint Prophecy Roman Catholic

Google should bump us up now Smiley
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« Reply #54 on: April 19, 2005, 04:39:34 PM »


Is it me, or would you be creeped out if you went onto a site looking for info about St. Malachy and read Dustin's post?

I know I would.
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« Reply #55 on: April 19, 2005, 04:50:42 PM »


Is it me, or would you be creeped out if you went onto a site looking for info about St. Malachy and read Dustin's post?

I know I would.

It's just you Smiley  We have 60 guests reading this thread right now and I just want them to know they are welcome to join our forum. Smiley
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« Reply #56 on: April 19, 2005, 05:06:43 PM »

No he is not benedictine... but hey... look at his NAME....  Lets keep playing..  Smiley
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« Reply #57 on: April 19, 2005, 05:22:39 PM »

this is ridiculous ....

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« Reply #58 on: April 19, 2005, 05:57:41 PM »

Ebor and Deacon Lance,
Thanks for the article reference.  It solidified the timeline and context I had read in other fora (not this one).
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« Reply #59 on: April 19, 2005, 06:39:08 PM »

I told you guys, after the Red Sox won the WS, it was a sign of the end of times.

People get ready, there's a train a-coming......

james

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« Reply #60 on: April 19, 2005, 06:54:25 PM »

I told you guys, after the Red Sox won the WS, it was a sign of the end of times.

People get ready, there's a train a-coming......

....and it's saying "woo-woo?"  Grin 

For reference "woo-woo" meanings:
http://www.watchingyou.com/woowoo.html
http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/woo_woo/

Though, interestingly, there *is* a baseball link to the term too:

http://www.ronniewoowoo.com/

Ebor
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« Reply #61 on: April 19, 2005, 06:57:07 PM »

Yes. Over the ages, it came to be used as the phrase: "Do not judge anyone before their end".

Well, considering all the "prophecy" business over the last 2 weeks as well as talk of things like Cardinal Lustigar being a "Jew"  and the end times etc etc, it seems like there was a good deal of "judging" before the beginning...
 :-

Ebor

P.S.  you're welcome, Elisha.  At your service in the hunt for information  Wink

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« Reply #62 on: April 19, 2005, 06:58:27 PM »


Deacon Lance,
I was actually just making a statement to set it at contrast with the claim that he was a Jew...as desparate as the Nazis were for manpower, they did not knowingly admited Jews into the ranks of the Hitler Youth. Ratzinger has enough Ecclesiological, Theological, Christological, and Phenomenological problems to criticize without being too concerned with his political preferences...infact I would be far less concerned if he was a loyal Nazi but held to the Orthodox Faith; social politics are generally superficial things relative to issues of the Faith.

You write the most outrageous things, Greekchristian.  You would prefer a Nazi to a believing Catholic?  I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that's not what you intended to write. 

Am I the only one who is bothered by a seminarian concluding that the new pope (a seventy-something year old man who has been through the culture "wars" of the last several decades) has theological and christological problems?  He's a good Christian so let's cut him some slack.  We're not inviting him to say the liturgy at our churches, for goodness's sakes. 

When the persecutions start, do you think our enemies will differentiate between those of us who believe the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son and those who believe it proceeds only from the Father?  I can see it now, all of the Christians are rounded up and some little piquesqueak who's read a few books and debated on the internet will insist that he doesn't want to be in the same prison cell with them.  God forbid!
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« Reply #63 on: April 19, 2005, 07:00:08 PM »

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« Reply #64 on: April 19, 2005, 07:07:25 PM »

Quote
Well, considering all the "prophecy" business over the last 2 weeks as well as talk of things like Cardinal Lustigar being a "Jew"  and the end times etc etc, it seems like there was a good deal of "judging" before the beginning...

Cardinal Lustiger is a Jew... and there is nothing wrong with trying to predict the future based on Church prophecies.
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« Reply #65 on: April 19, 2005, 07:09:56 PM »



Cardinal Lustiger is a Jew... and there is nothing wrong with trying to predict the future based on Church prophecies.

Actually, no he's not a "Jew."  He's a Roman Catholic who was born Jewish. 

Trying to predict the future is very wrong even if we rely upon "Church prophecies."  I remind you that the prophecies of St. Malachy are not "Church prophecies."  In fact, I don't think there are any "Church prophecies."  We don't use the prophecies of saints to "predict the future." 

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« Reply #66 on: April 19, 2005, 07:18:15 PM »

Quote
Actually, no he's not a "Jew."  He's a Roman Catholic who was born Jewish. 

Mind his own words first.

Quote
As an archbishop who has not been shy about discussing his Jewish past -- he once told reporters he still considered himself to be a Jew and had a "dual affiliation"
http://www.catholicnews.com/jpii/cardinals/0501847.htm


Quote
Trying to predict the future is very wrong even if we rely upon "Church prophecies."  I remind you that the prophecies of St. Malachy are not "Church prophecies."  In fact, I don't think there are any "Church prophecies."  We don't use the prophecies of saints to "predict the future."

Why would it be wrong?
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« Reply #67 on: April 19, 2005, 08:32:08 PM »

even though this is free-for-all, i suggest people back up their assertions with proven facts and not conjecture. If this gets out of hand it's going to get closed.
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« Reply #68 on: April 19, 2005, 08:45:11 PM »

You write the most outrageous things, Greekchristian. You would prefer a Nazi to a believing Catholic? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that's not what you intended to write.

I was just making the point that political preference is of nominal significance in comparison to matters of Faith, and thus I am not very concerned about his politics, whatever they are; read into it what you will, but that is all I said.

Am I the only one who is bothered by a seminarian concluding that the new pope (a seventy-something year old man who has been through the culture "wars" of the last several decades) has theological and christological problems? He's a good Christian so let's cut him some slack. We're not inviting him to say the liturgy at our churches, for goodness's sakes.

Last I checked, being 78 doesnt make on immune to heresy. And yes I will stand by my statement that he has significant theological problems. Filioque, Azymes, Purgatory, Papal Infallibility, need I go on? Surely you dont believe that these theologies are Orthodox or even acceptable to the Orthodox, if so you have more important things to be bothered about than my belief that Ratzinger is not Orthodox.

When the persecutions start, do you think our enemies will differentiate between those of us who believe the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son and those who believe it proceeds only from the Father? I can see it now, all of the Christians are rounded up and some little piquesqueak who's read a few books and debated on the internet will insist that he doesn't want to be in the same prison cell with them. God forbid!

Ultimately, if we cannot agree on our Trinitarian Theology, we technically dont believe in the same God, just something to keep in mind. I really dont understand how you can try and trivialize issues that are at the very core of our faith, or Dogmas on the Trinity itself; this is not a minor issue that can be pushed aside, but is ultimatley the same issue (Trinitarian Theology) that fundamentally separates us from the Moslems, Jews, or Buddhists and Hindu for that matter. And I fear that this Pope is going to insist on the maintaining of this heretical theology, and progress in the oecumenical dialogue will stop.
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« Reply #69 on: April 19, 2005, 10:32:26 PM »

And I fear that this Pope is going to insist on the maintaining of this heretical theology, and progress in the oecumenical dialogue will stop.

Actually, this was a fear I had as well. However, I note a few things important about Pope B XVI. He will not liberalize the faith- meaning no gay marriages, female clergy, etc.  and this I think is good, given the current climate where some people are eager to 'let hell break loose', to legitimize their current life choices...   I read that he was in fact the one who wrote the apology to the Jews for the Pope JPII.  He must have been involved in the dialogue with the EO as well, given his position.  So I am hopeful that he will continue the dialogue.

As to your other points, I respect him as a deeply spritual Christian and despite the points of difference that result from his being RC, I believe God shows mercy for all of our inadequacies  that come from our humanness.. ,especially those that are the result of  a long and turbulent history.  I think these words of Vassula Ryden sum it up. 


"God’s Calling to a deep metanoia, fruit of humility that leads us to reconciliation and unity


We, the people of the churches, must realize that we are living in a constant sin, the sin of our division. "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand." (Mt.12, 25). Even if this division did not come directly from us but from our forefathers, still, we are keeping it alive so long as we remain divided. We cannot say that God is pleased when the shepherds are still separated. We cannot deign to talk about unity without going through a metanoia and put into practice the two greatest commandments of God. It will be as though we want to construct a house without laying down first its foundations. The foundations of unity should be humility and divine love and the conversion of our hearts. For how could we believe that we could reach unity if we do not repent and live fully the two greatest commandments that are based on the law of love? "

"My earnest wish is that the West and the East meet. I need those two pillars of My Church to come together and consolidate My Church."
(Jesus to Vassula, October 5, 1994)

For those interested in prophecy.. The words of Jesus penned through Vassula Ryden may be of interest.http://www.tlig.org/
  Vassula was invited to Romania by both the Pope JPII  and Patriarch of Romania Teostist , where she delivered to them a dossier with the messages from God which she has received, and the core is a message of unity...She is GO and has preached all over the world with a core message to rebuild God's house into one...

In XC, Kizzy

 



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« Reply #70 on: April 19, 2005, 10:45:38 PM »

Christ's Church is already one.  There are not many churches, but one Church, just as there is one Body of Christ.

While I hope for union with Rome one day, that union will not be that of two parts of a single Church (or two separate Churches) reuniting, but will be those who were once part of the Church and ceased to be part of it joining thmeselves to it once again.  Pope Benedict may continue John Paul II's work towards rejoining the Church with all diligence and if he does, we should do everything in our power possible to effect Rome's return to the Church with rejoicing.  Glossing over our differences by referring to them as merely a separated portion of the Church does no one any favors in the quest for union.  It merely serves to obscure what the Church's understanding of itself actually is, and that understanding is of one Body of Christ that can never be divided, for that would go against the very nature of Christ and His Church.
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« Reply #71 on: April 19, 2005, 10:59:35 PM »

With regards to Ecumenical Dialogue. I think you all need to realize that a faithful Catholic, such as Benedict XVI, cannot make the Roman church Orthodox or truly Catholic, even if he wanted to which he does not. Why? because doctrines such IC and Papal Infallibility, and the Filioque, cannot simply be changed. In fact the Catholic would have to admit itself wrong, that it made mistakes meaning that the Holy Spirit withdrew His guidance from the Roman church. Do any of you honestly believe that faithful Catholics would ever admit this? I know some of you were Catholic, and some such as myself, come from very traditionalist Catholic families and areas. If you come from one of these families or areas you are certain that IC and Papal Infallibility are facts that God has revealed or you are not Catholic period! For the Catholic church to become Orthodox it would have to deny that it has been the Church for the past thousand years. This is why many who come from Roman Catholicism to Orthodoxy, such as Hieromonk Ambrose, formerly Fr.Alexey Young, are opposed to and appalled by all the ecumenical dialogues taking place. They already know what is going on. The Roman church wants us to concede and condemn ourselves on certain issues and incorporate us into the Unia like it has done in the past.
Anyone who knows what it means to be a faithful Catholic knows that the Roman church will never, outside of some great miracle, come back to the Orthodox Church. If you want to be Orthodox be Orthodox and recognize that while we are called to love everybody we cannot out of love deny them the Truth. If you want to be in the Roman church and venerate every man who becomes pope as a living saint, along with a lot of other heretical innovations, join the Roman church.
Plus can you imagine how many people would leave the Roman church if the Pope and the majority of Archbishops tried to lead their flock into the Orthodox Church? They have enough trouble right now combatting modernism and relativism.

Quote
Ultimately, if we cannot agree on our Trinitarian Theology, we technically dont believe in the same God, just something to keep in mind. I really dont understand how you can try and trivialize issues that are at the very core of our faith, or Dogmas on the Trinity itself; this is not a minor issue that can be pushed aside, but is ultimatley the same issue (Trinitarian Theology) that fundamentally separates us from the Moslems, Jews, or Buddhists and Hindu for that matter. And I fear that this Pope is going to insist on the maintaining of this heretical theology, and progress in the oecumenical dialogue will stop.
Thank you for writing that! I remember that St.Gregory Palamas wrote that there is no difference between heresy and Atheism. You've have made this point quite well.
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« Reply #72 on: April 19, 2005, 11:07:08 PM »

Kizzy,

I too believe that reunion between east and west is important, which is why I am as concerned as I am about Ratzinger, the truth of the matter is that John Paul II was too 'conservative' on certain doctrinal issues and did very little to advance the Oecumenical Dialogue, it has essentially stood still for these past 25 years, and I fear that I have good cause to believe that Ratzinger will not be much more open on these issues than John Paul II was. Though I hate to make these statements during the mourning period after John Paul II's death, I will do so as a new Pope has been elected: from an Orthodox perspective John Paul II was far worse stubborn than Popes John XXIII and Paul VI who were far more open and actually accomplished somethings towards the reconciliation of East and West, and I fear that Ratzinger will continue in the footsteps of John Paul II, perhaps even being less cooperative, rather than return to the openess and progress in oecumenical dialogue that we enjoyed with John XXIII and Paul VI.

Sabbas,
Some say that John Paul I may have formally renounced (Ex Cathedra) the doctrine of Papal Infallibility had he lived, reconciliation is possible, but it will require the right pope, I dont think Ratzinger is that pope.
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« Reply #73 on: April 19, 2005, 11:09:56 PM »

Some say that John Paul I may have formally renounced (Ex Cathedra) the doctrine of Papal Infallibility had he lived, reconciliation is possible, but it will require the right pope, I dont think Ratzinger is that pope.

So he would have used Papal Infallibility to renounce Papal Infallibility? Huh
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« Reply #74 on: April 19, 2005, 11:13:16 PM »

So he would have used Papal Infallibility to renounce Papal Infallibility? Huh

No better way to undermine a doctrine than to establish a blatant contradiction in it...especially in the eyes of the west. Wink
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« Reply #75 on: April 19, 2005, 11:40:13 PM »

The following is from wikipedia:

----------------------------------------------------------
Pope Benedict XVI (Gloria Olivae)

The next motto is Gloria Olivae, the glory of the olive. Prior to the papal conclave, this motto led to speculation that the next pontiff would be from the Order of Saint Benedict, whose symbols include the olive branch. Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, selected in April 2005, is not a Benedictine, but did pick Benedict XVI as his papal name, which might be regarded as a fulfillment of this prophecy.

Alternatively, less specific interpreters have predicted that the next pope will promote world peace (as in an olive branch). Pope Benedict XVI has chosen "Pax" (peace) as his papal motto. The self-proclaimed Pope Clemente Dom+¡nguez y G+¦mez of the Palmarian Catholic Church claimed that he was the glory of the olive.

There had already been, before the election of pope, a concomitance in two unrelated events occurring on the opening date of the 2005 Conclaves. First, a Turkish presidential candidate won overnight the northern Cyprus elections favouring re-unification peace talks of the two sectors; the Cyprus flag has two inter-locking olive branches in it. Secondly, the Italian Prime Minister has seriously been considering resigning and holding early general elections succumbing to pressure from the leftist opposition called l'Ulivo.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Whether it is just wishful thinking, or some correlation holy or unholy, I doubt we can say.  But Ratzinger hardly breaks the prophecy line, given the above.
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« Reply #76 on: April 19, 2005, 11:46:49 PM »

What the nit-pickers fail to realize is that the papacy is the only thing keeping Roman Catholicism together.  Ultimately a strong Roman Catholic Church is good for us Orthodox and all Christians because the papacy is a bully pulpit for very important issues. 

Abortion is more important than the filioque.  Gay marriage is more important than azymes. 

He appears to be a good man who is right about these very important issues so let's give him some respect. 

I don't care too much about ecumenism.  We'll see a reunion when God wills it.  It will be a miracle.  It won't happen as a result of talks between self-important theologians.  A strong papacy may make things hard for the professional ecumenists but it provides a strong witness against abortion and gay marriage. 

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« Reply #77 on: April 20, 2005, 12:02:48 AM »

What the nit-pickers fail to realize is that the papacy is the only thing keeping Roman Catholicism together. pen as

I agree with you here, but this still exposes the error in infallibility - one person, one bishop, can harm or preserve them. That has got to make at least some of them worry; maybe think that something is wrong?
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« Reply #78 on: April 20, 2005, 12:11:03 AM »


I agree with you here, but this still exposes the error in infallibility - one person, one bishop, can harm or preserve them. That has got to make at least some of them worry; maybe think that something is wrong?

I think God uses what He has available.  We know that secular leaders who aren't even Christians can do God's will. 

It seems to me that God has taken a bad thing, infallibility and supremacy, and turned it into something good, e.g. a bully pulpit. 

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« Reply #79 on: April 20, 2005, 12:16:58 AM »

Here's Fr. Patrick Reardon's thoughts on the new pope.  I've met Fr. Reardon several times and he's a very wise man and a good priest. 

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« Reply #80 on: April 20, 2005, 12:32:04 AM »

Here's Fr. Patrick Reardon's thoughts on the new pope. I've met Fr. Reardon several times and he's a very wise man and a good priest.


I am glad you like him. Some don't.
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« Reply #81 on: April 20, 2005, 12:34:32 AM »


I am glad you like him. Some don't.

I don't agree with his politics but he's a nice man and a good priest. 

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« Reply #82 on: April 20, 2005, 01:06:55 AM »

Read on what Fr Andrew has to say about the New Pope.....

quote////For Orthodox, the fact that the new Pope,
the Bavarian Cardinal Ratzinger,
 has taken the name of Benedict has both positive and negative aspects.
 It is positive because St Benedict was one of the great early Orthodox monastic fathers of Western Europe, who brought Orthodoxy from the East to the West.
 However, Orthodox cannot forget that the last Pope Benedict,
Benedict XV (1914-1922),
 one who tried to reconcile Catholic modernists and Catholic traditionalists,
 hated Orthodox Russia.
 He not only rejoiced at her fall,
 but immediately, in 1917, set up institutions to preach Catholicism there,
and in 1920 saw the Turkish government,
that had committed genocide against Armenian and Greek Christians alike, erect a statue in gratitude to him.

The fact that this election has come on the feast-day of St Methodius, the ninth-century Apostle of the Slavs and Archbishop of Moravia, is not a good sign either.

more from here........
http://www.orthodoxengland.btinternet.co.uk/newpope.htm

have mercy on me a sinner
helen...
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« Reply #83 on: April 20, 2005, 01:15:45 AM »



I don't agree with his politics but he's a nice man and a good priest.



Thanks (seriously). I'll remember that when things get wild at our informal coffee sessions (me, a deacon and one or two priests) after just about every article he gets published.
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« Reply #84 on: April 20, 2005, 01:25:24 AM »

You have to like this though (about Ratzinger from the Touchstone link):

“Putting the smack down on heresy since 1981.”
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« Reply #85 on: April 20, 2005, 01:35:42 AM »

What the nit-pickers fail to realize is that the papacy is the only thing keeping Roman Catholicism together. Ultimately a strong Roman Catholic Church is good for us Orthodox and all Christians because the papacy is a bully pulpit for very important issues.

Abortion is more important than the filioque. Gay marriage is more important than azymes.

He appears to be a good man who is right about these very important issues so let's give him some respect.

I don't care too much about ecumenism. We'll see a reunion when God wills it. It will be a miracle. It won't happen as a result of talks between self-important theologians. A strong papacy may make things hard for the professional ecumenists but it provides a strong witness against abortion and gay marriage.

Is murder a worse crime than Heresy? Are civil laws of greater value than our Christology? I wouldn't be so quick to answer in the manner that you did, and I do not understand the basis on which you place political influence above Orthodox Theology. It would be infinitely better for Rome to return to the Orthodox Faith and suffer her share of evils, instead of trying to maintain the status quo so that can she remain prominent in the political arenas of secular and atheistic states. But my understanding of what you wrote is in error, I hope you are not truly suggesting compromising doctrinal integrity for political gain.
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« Reply #86 on: April 20, 2005, 04:13:18 AM »

Quote
There had already been, before the election of pope, a concomitance in two unrelated events occurring on the opening date of the 2005 Conclaves. First, a Turkish presidential candidate won overnight the northern Cyprus elections favouring re-unification peace talks of the two sectors; the Cyprus flag has two inter-locking olive branches in it. Secondly, the Italian Prime Minister has seriously been considering resigning and holding early general elections succumbing to pressure from the leftist opposition called l'Ulivo.

The argument about Cyprus is... very out of place. The same presidential Candidate won the last time, with "peace-talks" over re-unification of the two sectors. Unless peace actually occurs, this is a non-valid argument that peace will be to the world.

EDIT: I'm actually beginning to like the new Pope's style lately, after listening to how he preaches. He is ultra-conservative, but he is also a warrior, which makes a powerful combination fitting for a Pope, that could strike a difference to the world. The problem is on what the difference he makes will be.

I would like to hear his views on the European Constitution, however. If someone knows something relative, please inform me!
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« Reply #87 on: April 20, 2005, 04:32:59 AM »

JENNIFER:"Abortion is more important than the filioque.  Gay marriage is more important than azymes."


I will agree to disagree. God help us if this is the concensus of the faithful.





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« Reply #88 on: April 20, 2005, 08:42:29 AM »

I doubt that is the consensus.
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« Reply #89 on: April 20, 2005, 10:07:30 AM »

JENNIFER:"Abortion is more important than the filioque. Gay marriage is more important than azymes."


I will agree to disagree. God help us if this is the concensus of the faithful.




I don't know of a national consensus in the church as I haven't seen a survey,  but I would say that the topic of abortion and gay marriage does generate more discussion as these are related to how one lives the faith...Christian living in everyday life is a big concern... so they do go hand in hand.  Anna Quindlen wrote in one of the magazines (i think Time) that millions of the people at the pope's funeral mourned him though many were living totally against church teaching...with premarital living being so common in Europe for example... So I think it natural that the Pope selected is one who says... we are not about to have  a 'free for all here in the name of Christ...'

Most people I know, when it comes to the Creed and the filioque, while they say, "i believe" this topic is more ethereal, and leaves room for expansion and discussion...
it is never as concrete as their opinions on abortion and gay marriage...which have a manifestation people can see and experience first hand and therefore have  a definite opinion on the consequences of such choices...

In XC, Kizzy

 


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« Reply #90 on: April 20, 2005, 10:13:21 AM »

JENNIFER:"Abortion is more important than the filioque. Gay marriage is more important than azymes."


I will agree to disagree. God help us if this is the concensus of the faithful.


Yes. Doing no work on the sabbath is far more important than healing a sick man.
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« Reply #91 on: April 20, 2005, 10:29:40 AM »

JENNIFER:"Abortion is more important than the filioque. Gay marriage is more important than azymes."


I will agree to disagree. God help us if this is the concensus of the faithful.


The theological issues that people have been fighting about for centuries don't matter so much to us laypeople.  I'm content to let my bishops worry about those issues. 

It's not that abortion gets more attention than azymes thus making it more important but rather that we as American laypeople have more opportunity to witness against abortion than we do against azymes. 

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« Reply #92 on: April 20, 2005, 10:42:27 AM »

Lets not rush to discount (Saint) Malachy. He existed shortly after the schism. He himself had been brought up still knowing the orthodox way. He may have been in the West but the impact of the Schism may not have actually affected his essential theology which could, in all likelihood, still be orthodox........
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« Reply #93 on: April 20, 2005, 10:43:53 AM »

The point is not to discount St. Malachy, but whether or not he actually wrote those prophecies.  St. Bernard never mentions them during his Life of St. Malachy, and the latter died in the former's arms! 
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« Reply #94 on: April 20, 2005, 10:44:50 AM »

Lets not rush to discount (Saint) Malachy. He existed shortly after the schism. He himself had been brought up still knowing the orthodox way. He may have been in the West but the impact of the Schism may not have actually affected his essential theology which could, in all likelihood, still be orthodox........


We're not discouting Malachy; we're discounting the guy who forged the prophecies attributed to him.
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« Reply #95 on: April 20, 2005, 10:48:37 AM »



We're not discouting Malachy; we're discounting the guy who forged the prophecies attributed to him.

Praise God!  Someone gets it! Wink
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« Reply #96 on: April 20, 2005, 10:49:06 AM »

Let me qualify what I wrote by noting that I've been around the on-line Orthodox world for a long now and have watched a virtual parade of young enthusiastic converts go off the deep end and end up in groups like HOCNA or ROAC.  My observation is that they got too caught up in theological correctness.  Their Orthodoxy came from books not the life of the Church. 

I think this is partially due to their age.  But I think pride was an element as well.  It's 'fun' to imagine that one is fighting the ancient intellectual/theological battles of the Church.  To leave that to your bishops requires a kind of humility. 

I also think that the 'obsession' with theological minutia by laypeople is a defense mechanism against acknowledging the evil of their everyday lives.  We as Americans are bombarded with evil.  It's basic human nature to pretend that it doesn't exist.  To pretend that we're not at fault.  I think some retreat from this evil by trying to hide in the Church. 

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« Reply #97 on: April 20, 2005, 10:49:14 AM »



The theological issues that people have been fighting about for centuries don't matter so much to us laypeople. I'm content to let my bishops worry about those issues.

It's not that abortion gets more attention than azymes thus making it more important but rather that we as American laypeople have more opportunity to witness against abortion than we do against azymes.



Who says Orthodox groups cannot work with Roman Catholic groups to end abortion? We do not have to compromise our beliefs to work together on social issues.

Also what we believe is not just for the Bishops. We the Faithful must defend our Faith too. I do not believe that God the Holy Spirit is the substance of the love between the Father and the Son nor do I believe He has his origin in both the Father and Son. This is not some trivial matter! Who we believe God to be is of utmost importance.



Yes. Doing no work on the sabbath is far more important than healing a sick man.
Schultz upholding what we believe about God is far different from hypocrital Pharisees who only are concerned with the letter of the Law. If we do not know what we believe we can help no one.
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« Reply #98 on: April 20, 2005, 10:54:52 AM »


Who says Orthodox groups cannot work with Roman Catholic groups to end abortion? We do not have to compromise our beliefs to work together on social issues.

Also what we believe is not just for the Bishops. We the Faithful must defend our Faith too. I do not believe that God the Holy Spirit is the substance of the love between the Father and the Son nor do I believe He has his origin in both the Father and Son. This is not some trivial matter! Who we believe God to be is of utmost importance.
Schultz upholding what we believe about God is far different from hypocrital Pharisees who only are concerned with the letter of the Law. If we do not know what we believe we can help no one.

I'm not saying it's trivial or that we as laypeople don't have a responsibility to uphold the faith.  However, you and I can actually end abortion, i.e. the murder of unborn children.  You and I cannot hold ecumenical talks with Roman Catholics about the filioque.  We can 'educate' Roman Catholics by living our faith instead of screaming and yelling at them. 

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that we as laypeople are called to teach our faith by living it.  Priests and bishops are called to teach the faith in a different way. 

In an Orthodox parish, one doesn't get caught up in all of this theology.  We live our faith through the liturgies of the Church and through doing good works and fasting and praying. 
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« Reply #99 on: April 20, 2005, 10:57:51 AM »

Quote
If we do not know what we believe we can help no one.


I just really think that the Devil laughs every time someone says, "Azymes are more important than abortion"
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« Reply #100 on: April 20, 2005, 11:37:29 AM »



I'm not saying it's trivial or that we as laypeople don't have a responsibility to uphold the faith. However, you and I can actually end abortion, i.e. the murder of unborn children. You and I cannot hold ecumenical talks with Roman Catholics about the filioque. We can 'educate' Roman Catholics by living our faith instead of screaming and yelling at them.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that we as laypeople are called to teach our faith by living it. Priests and bishops are called to teach the faith in a different way.

In an Orthodox parish, one doesn't get caught up in all of this theology. We live our faith through the liturgies of the Church and through doing good works and fasting and praying.

Exactly right.. each of us has our 'circle of  direct influence'... and ours is our children and neighbors and our priest.  Our priest's circle includes the parish, his Bishop, and other priests he works with.  The Bishop has influence on the priest, other bishops, and the Patriarch on the bishops and other Hierarchs... This is the essence of a hierarchical structure, which some faiths do not have...

What I mean by ' circle of direct  influence' is simply those who can witness how we live our faith pretty much first hand and then have discussion concerning how and work to ensure consistency with the faith... the higher up you go, the less 'direct influence' there is between the hierarch and the laity, but the more there is with other hierarchs.  One would hope that issues of the laity do reach the hierarchs and vice versa...
but it is difficult since most hierarchs travel in 'a bubble'...surrounded by clergy, reporters, and old time faithful...And hence not all hierarchs received the same information or complete information about the laity... The GOA ministries are trying to work to capture the lay issues and identify ministry programs to address them.  Basically change within the church happens best peacefully  from within, from a non-adversarial relationship through prayer and dialogue, rather than by going to battle over it...which may bring change but perhaps in a resented fashion.. 

I doubt any of the hierarchs  pay 'unannouced visits' to parishes to really see what the congregations are like, and what the issues are...
One thing that is bridging the hierarchy and laity  from top to bottom, is the current GO prophet/mystic Vassula Ryden.  She has been invited to speak at gatherings of EO, RC, Lutheran, Coptics, etc... and there are frequent conversions to Christianity after her talks. She has had influence on  increased dialogue between the churches....    For those who haven't heard of her, she has produced writings of what Jesus has told/ tells  her... they are penned in unusual script, which is when Christ speaks to her and writes through her hand...   I recently came across this, and she is held in high regard by both churches and is having influence that spans clergy and laity...from the Pope and Patriarchs on down... The writings have been captured in "Truth in God".  You can see the writings on a website... they are beautiful... and send shivers...The tone of the words from Jesus are basically... 'you got started right, but you've missed my point by allowing my church to be split over doctrines written by people...Easter must be celebrated together and the Eucharist around one altar' There are words of guidance for both the RC and GO churches on how to proceed.  I haven't read all the writings...will take awhile before I form a complete opinion...

In XC, Kizzy
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« Reply #101 on: April 20, 2005, 11:39:05 AM »

My question to those familiar with RC conclave is this....is it possible for a monk to be elected as Pope? I realize that it is probably unlikely but what are the actual rules?

In Christ,
Raouf

Actually any male can be elected Pope....even from the laity!
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« Reply #102 on: April 20, 2005, 11:52:09 AM »

Last I checked, being 78 doesnt make on immune to heresy. And yes I will stand by my statement that he has significant theological problems. Filioque, Azymes, Purgatory, Papal Infallibility, need I go on?

Azymes is praxis, not theology.
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« Reply #103 on: April 20, 2005, 12:00:17 PM »

Quote
My question to those familiar with RC conclave is this....is it possible for a monk to be elected as Pope? I realize that it is probably unlikely but what are the actual rules?

In Christ,
Raouf


Actually any male can be elected Pope....even from the laity!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Theoretically, any male Catholic can be elected by the conclave Cardinals.

However, that person has to be at least a priest, because of the necessity of ordaining him immediately a bishop upon his acceptance of his election as Pope.

Realistically, therefore, the next Pope will come from the ranks of the College of Cardinals, more specifically, from among the Cardinal electors themselves as will be shown shortly.

The 1996 Apostolic Constitution "Universi Dominici Gregis" is a "special law" governing the election and qualifications of the Roman Pontiff. The Codes of Canon (Catholic East and West) are "general laws."

It abrogates or supercedes the general laws as far as the election and qualifications of the Pope. However, where the provisions are not in conflict, the special law "adopts" the provisions of the general laws. The qualifications of the Roman Pontiff is one such provision.

The UDG requires that the person elected, if not already a Bishop, must immediately be consecrated as a Bishop to validly exercise the authority and powers of the Supreme Pontiff. The Code of Canons contains the provisions for the valid ordination of a person to the episcopacy, thus:

Quote
Can. 378 -º1 To be a suitable candidate for the episcopate, a person must:

1-¦ be outstanding in strong faith, good morals, piety, zeal for souls, wisdom, prudence and human virtues, and possess those other gifts which equip him to fulfill the office in question;

2-¦ be held in good esteem;

3-¦ be at least 35 years old;

4-¦ be a priest ordained for at least five years;

5-¦ hold a doctorate or at least a licentiate in sacred Scripture, theology or canon law, from an institute of higher studies approved by the Apostolic See, or at least be well versed in these disciplines.

-º2 The definitive judgment on the suitability of the person to be promoted rests with the Apostolic See.


In the bolded subsection 4 above, the person thus elected must not only be a priest, he must have been a priest for at least 5 years!

Since the Apostolic See is vacant (during the Conclave), the College of Cardinals is the sole authority to interpret the provisons of UDG and that interpretation points to the upholding of the current norms for the valid ordination to the episcopacy.

A layman or any "male Catholic" simply does not possess the antecedent qualifications.

Amado
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« Reply #104 on: April 20, 2005, 12:46:30 PM »

Very interesting.... I found the following on Varulla who it appears continues in the tradition of the false mystics in Croatia.  ""I have taken you as My bride sharing My Cross as our matrimonial bed, will you look at Me?" (I looked at Jesus’ face.) "Could I ever abandon you, flower? I am He who loves you most, remain near Me, here." (It was like as if He had a sudden idea, stopped, pointed at our ankles which I saw tied to each other.) 

And again: "
In addressing the WCC, Vassula’s so-called "Jesus" stated:

" My words of reconciliation, peace, and unity have not been heard nor have they been respected.

[Vassula: ’He’s talking about the WCC here."]

"GǪ When will they [WCC] pass a decree by unanimous vote to celebrate the feast of Easter all on one date? GǪ I have come to talk to them, to the World Council of Churches, GǪ"
Vassula’s Jesus tells Vassula, the Christian "communities are all the same in my eyes GǪ you are all One in My eyes! I do not make any distinction."

Apparently she is funded by Catholic Charismatics and supporters of Garabandal and other groups.
==========================

I am currently reading an essay by Christos Yannaras called the 'Heresy of Pietism".  This Orthodox Theologian states that we have been taken over by pietiism which places doctrine and truth second place to social ethics.  So abortion, poverty etc are more important that the teachings of the Church.  This 'heresy' permeates all Churches, but especially the Roman Catholic (Liberation Theology, Social Doctrine etc...).  I believe fighting against abortion with Catholic groups is a good thing, but it is not a road to doctrinal unity.  Having studied at a Catholic College and debated with professors - I chose to disagree with them theologicially, although some of them became friends.

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« Reply #105 on: April 20, 2005, 12:55:05 PM »



Azymes is praxis, not theology.

Praxis is never separate from Theology in Orthodoxy.
I just really think that the Devil laughs every time someone says, "Azymes are more important than abortion"
All I think is being said is that we cannot just say because we agree on abortion that azymes no longer matter in the possible reconciliation of the Roman church with the Orthodox Church. But I do not think anyone is saying that because Roman Catholics are not a part of the Orthodox Church that we cannot work together in ending abortion.


I'm not saying it's trivial or that we as laypeople don't have a responsibility to uphold the faith. However, you and I can actually end abortion, i.e. the murder of unborn children. You and I cannot hold ecumenical talks with Roman Catholics about the filioque. We can 'educate' Roman Catholics by living our faith instead of screaming and yelling at them.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that we as laypeople are called to teach our faith by living it. Priests and bishops are called to teach the faith in a different way.

In an Orthodox parish, one doesn't get caught up in all of this theology. We live our faith through the liturgies of the Church and through doing good works and fasting and praying.

Jennifer my only point was that the Roman church does not have to be reconciled with the Orthodox Church for Orthodox Christians to work with Roman Catholics in ending abortion. We can still be separate but work together on this issue.
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« Reply #106 on: April 20, 2005, 03:10:38 PM »

Praxis is never separate from Theology in Orthodoxy.

Depends on what you mean by "separate". They are not the same thing, for there are, after all, different words with different definitions. If you are saying that differences in praxis imply differences in theology, I would say that this is not so. If you are saying that the differences in this praxis stems from a difference in theology, well, maybe. Anglicans don't officially care about leavening, and the reason we don't care is that we don't think this is a theological issue worth fighting over. Indeed, for any difference in praxis there's the question of whether the difference is also retained as a sign of the separation between the groups that espouse the differences.

As long as every difference is to be fought about to the death, then in practice there's no real hope for any kind of reunion. But since Jesus' teaching seems inimicable to that adamancy, I cannot but condemn it.
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« Reply #107 on: April 20, 2005, 04:48:23 PM »

Sabbas,

Quote
If we do not know what we believe we can help no one.

Actually, not "knowing" a specific detail of a faith does not inhibit one from performing positive steps in the name of that faith. To assume that such positive steps would be impeded by an slightly imperfect understanding of a detail of a faith is to assume that we are all incapable of helping anyone, since we are all human and all fallible.
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« Reply #108 on: April 20, 2005, 05:08:48 PM »

Phyltre
I was not making an absolute statement about everyone. Rather in that context I was stating that unless we Orthodox and Roman Catholics know why we are different than we cannot help anyone but will confuse people as is already happening. Why should someone from the Roman church become Orthodox if Orthodox people and bishops are saying they should stay in the Roman church? This is a question that comes up a lot. If we do not know how to be Roman Catholics and Orthodox while working together to end abortion than we cannot help anyone. We as Orthodox have an additional duty to try to lead people to the Orthodox Church. But if we do not know what we believe, that the Orthodox Church is the True Church and there are no Mysteries outside it, than we will not be able to help lead people to the Faith or will no longer care about leading people to the Church. We have to both help people by ending abortion and fighting for other issues of life and death alongside trying to lead people to Salvation.
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« Reply #109 on: April 20, 2005, 05:39:17 PM »


Apparently she is funded by Catholic Charismatics and supporters of Garabandal and other groups.


Please explain the source for this statement.  According to the articles I read, both EO and RC have supported her statements, but I haven't seen anything regarding financial support.

in XC, Kizzy
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« Reply #110 on: April 20, 2005, 08:19:26 PM »

Perhaps my beliefs differ slightly from yours, but I'm fairly certain we agree on the point that we do not all serve God in exactly the same way.  Therefore my statement was merely to say that for some is it more important to wrangle out the details for better understanding of faith.  For others, it is more pressing to make a difference in other ways, ways that remain unaffected by the outcomes of these debates.  All reasonably devout Christians can agree on many many positive changes that could be made in this world, and their pursuit of them should not be superseded by ultimate truths perhaps meant for the next dominion.

You see, at least personally, I am content to not claim to know whether or not the Spirit issues only from the Father or also from the Son.  There is much that I will not learn of God in this life, and this to me is one of those things.  I am content with what I consider to be the larger truths that will serve me in this life, and what were the core of the message of the Son.  This is my life...and at the risk of sounding relativist (trust that I am not) this is what I feel is best in my case.
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« Reply #111 on: April 20, 2005, 11:24:28 PM »


You see, at least personally, I am content to not claim to know whether or not the Spirit issues only from the Father or also from the Son. There is much that I will not learn of God in this life, and this to me is one of those things. I am content with what I consider to be the larger truths that will serve me in this life, and what were the core of the message of the Son. This is my life...and at the risk of sounding relativist (trust that I am not) this is what I feel is best in my case.
Phyltre, this is a fairly common belief among both Orthodox and Catholics...many look at this particular subject as battling over the details instead of celebrating over the bigger picture.  This type of 'battling and disharmony' is one reason that the EO, RC, and Protestant faiths have lost members to the evangelical movement...
 Some people see the division over this  issue as sinful and superseeding other issues concerning Christ's message for how each person should treat his brethren...One person said to me.. " you know, so what, there is one Triune God, and Christ came to the world to save sinners by his death and resurrection...His words were at times indicating procession of the HS from the Father and at other times,from Him, as Son possessing all of the Father.. . so, both are right according to Biblical texts, and fighting over which is right is like cutting off your nose to spite your face."   

 The only significant new'creed' we should be concerned about is Islam... and Christians have converted to that as well...To me, Mohammed is the anti-Christ...and the terror that activist groups have wreaked on this planet in the name of Islam to me speaks of the Devil...and the more 'divided' Christianity is, the easier it is for Islam to gain strength...

In XC, Kizzy

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« Reply #112 on: April 21, 2005, 06:10:42 AM »

Please explain the source for this statement. According to the articles I read, both EO and RC have supported her statements, but I haven't seen anything regarding financial support.

Kizzy,

Her statements are not receiving any hierarchical support from Catholics.  In fact, the Vatican has reacted negatively to her.  See Notification on Vassula Ryden.  I think she is seen as falling into the same category as the supposed visions at Garabandal, etc. - an unwholesome category.

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #113 on: April 21, 2005, 02:53:13 PM »

I think Lustiger would be Peter the Roman...who leads his flock through tribulation....which if his prophecy is true is another sign the catholic church will not go in the rapture.
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« Reply #114 on: April 21, 2005, 03:35:05 PM »

I think Lustiger would be Peter the Roman...who leads his flock through tribulation....which if his prophecy is true is another sign the catholic church will not go in the rapture.

Neither will anyone else.  Wink

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« Reply #115 on: April 21, 2005, 03:39:18 PM »

I suppose that means I need to get rid of the bumper sticker that says, "In case of Rapture, can I have your car?"
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« Reply #116 on: April 21, 2005, 03:44:47 PM »

There is no Rapture...
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« Reply #117 on: April 21, 2005, 04:10:17 PM »

Quote
I suppose that means I need to get rid of the bumper sticker that says, "In case of Rapture, can I have your car?"

Hehe, that' my favorite one Cheesy
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« Reply #118 on: April 21, 2005, 08:59:22 PM »

Greetings everyone I'm the new kid on the block. For a few days now I have been reading your messages and have found them interesting and friendly.

Take Care, Laurie :thumbsup:
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« Reply #119 on: April 21, 2005, 09:47:48 PM »

I think Lustiger would be Peter the Roman...who leads his flock through tribulation....which if his prophecy is true is another sign the catholic church will not go in the rapture.


I hope I get this message board all figured out soon, but besides that, I was wondreing why yiouhave come to this conclusion that Lustiger would be the future Peter the Roman?
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« Reply #120 on: April 21, 2005, 10:42:58 PM »

Looking at the prophecy of St .Malachy..if he actually did write that prophecy......he did not say anything about the last Pope being Petros Romanus...

In fact, the last one from when he prophesied was the ''Glory of the Olive''....

So if that is the case, then we have Orthodox prophecy of many various Fathers and Saints of our Holy Catholic(Universal)Apostolic Orthodox Church.....
St Kosmas,
Elder Paisios
Saint Kalinikou of Romania(1787-1868)
Saint Eiphreim (Tou syrou)..sorry this in in Greek.....
Saint Andrea(kata hristou salou).in Greek also.....
Archpriest Father Akmasantos (kata ton 4 th century A.D )..also in Greek.....
many,many others that tell us that the Papacy will fall.........for this to happen, there has to be something big happen..
Constantinople will again become the centre of Orthododxy...HOLY CATHOLIC ,APOSTOLIC CHURCH.....(AS many others here  have stated before)
For this to happen, there has to be a war.....world war 111
And Russia gives the Greeks back CONSTANTINOPLE......This will be a sign toward the end of times.......
The Apocalypse begins not long after.....
In Revelation it says there was ''silence in Heaven for a  short time''
This would be for all to gather their thoughts about accepting Christ and following Antichrist......or should I say...the time when the Tortures will begin for all the faithful that remain alive......(NO RAPTURE)

Glory be to God ,Theotokos and His Saints....
Have mercy on me a sinner.
helen..

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« Reply #121 on: April 21, 2005, 10:52:47 PM »

many,many others that tell us that the Papacy will fall.........for this to happen, there has to be something big happen..
Constantinople will again become the centre of Orthododxy...HOLY CATHOLIC ,APOSTOLIC CHURCH.....(AS many others here have stated before)
For this to happen, there has to be a war.....world war 111


Maybe Al -qa-ida is working on this one....

Kizzy
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« Reply #122 on: April 21, 2005, 11:00:05 PM »



Maybe Al -qa-ida is working on this one....

Kizzy
Hi Kizzy.....
 Are you from Greece?

Apperently there is alot happening .....
 helen...

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« Reply #123 on: April 21, 2005, 11:06:19 PM »

Looking at the prophecy of St .Malachy..if he actually did write that prophecy......he did not say anything about the last Pope being Petros Romanus...

In fact, the last one from when he prophesied was the ''Glory of the Olive''....

So if that is the case, then we have Orthodox prophecy of many various Fathers and Saints of our Holy Catholic(Universal)Apostolic Orthodox Church.....
St Kosmas,
Elder Paisios
Saint Kalinikou of Romania(1787-1868)
Saint Eiphreim (Tou syrou)..sorry this in in Greek.....
Saint Andrea(kata hristou salou).in Greek also.....
Archpriest Father Akmasantos (kata ton 4 th century A.D )..also in Greek.....
many,many others that tell us that the Papacy will fall.........for this to happen, there has to be something big happen..
Constantinople will again become the centre of Orthododxy...HOLY CATHOLIC ,APOSTOLIC CHURCH.....(AS many others here have stated before)
For this to happen, there has to be a war.....world war 111
And Russia gives the Greeks back CONSTANTINOPLE......This will be a sign toward the end of times.......
The Apocalypse begins not long after.....
In Revelation it says there was ''silence in Heaven for a short time''
This would be for all to gather their thoughts about accepting Christ and following Antichrist......or should I say...the time when the Tortures will begin for all the faithful that remain alive......(NO RAPTURE)

Glory be to God ,Theotokos and His Saints....
Have mercy on me a sinner.
helen..



Helen,
Don't you think WW3 is in it's early beginnings, with the Bush government creating the war in Afganistan and Iraq, plus looking for other nations to strick an attack to keep it all going? I don't know what to think of this pope and what roll he will play in all this. But I can tell you this much the whole thing at this time looks pretty sinister from where I'm sitting
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« Reply #124 on: April 21, 2005, 11:22:53 PM »

Hi Laurie.....yes the same feelings I get here...

I remember reading from Orthodox source.......there will be small wars breaking out...and people will not know what is happening...
For us Christian Orthodox we have knowledge from our Saints who told us to look for the signs........and so did Christ our Lord....
We dont simply just sit here on our computers and talk, we need prayer and fasting and lots of each others prayers.....
Fasting because ''FOOD'' will be the weapon that the Antichrist will use against all the people.....
We have too much food and we still complain on what we are going to eat.....I many times open the fridge,cupboard and think to myself, what am i going to make.....we are simply not happy because we have too much......as Elder Paisios of Athos and many others  have  said......
FOOD will be the cause of many worshipping the Antichrist ,God forbid we do not bow down to him......

It is true, we have escaped many times the end of the world.......and because the Love of many shall became scarce.....Christ will swiftly make the end of times come quick ......only because many will not be able to live in such a time....(these are not my words, but many fathers that have said this...)
Glory be to God,Theotokos and His Saints..
helen....
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« Reply #125 on: April 21, 2005, 11:41:45 PM »

Helen,
My husband came from a catholic family, and I from protestant one. I noticed that his bible is packed full of information; About 20 more books in the bible than that of my king James bible, that has only a small token of 66 books in all. This leads me to believe, that the protestant churches were trying very hard to cover information that they didn't want to get out into the public, in fear that they would loose control of each congragation.

In my teaching, I had learned the earth would start to moan, and we have had one tsunami and a number of earthquakes in between in south/east asia, which were again signs that the end is near.

Take Care & God Bless, Laurie

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« Reply #126 on: April 21, 2005, 11:46:59 PM »


Hi Kizzy.....
 Are you from Greece?

Apperently there is alot happening .....
 helen...



Helen, I live in the US... 2nd Generation American... The alqaida are everywhere... from Professors, bankers, doctors, to students and clergy...I don't see how we can fight it... This is why I say that radical Islam is the enemy... not other Christian faiths...
Kizzy
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« Reply #127 on: April 21, 2005, 11:54:33 PM »

I'm trying to put up a pic of a bird and I'm wondering if it's posting where my name is
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« Reply #128 on: April 22, 2005, 12:01:38 AM »

Lets see if it works now...Please bear with this test. Thank you for your patience also it's wonderful to meet you all :wave2:
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« Reply #129 on: April 22, 2005, 12:08:30 AM »

Quote
Don't you think WW3 is in it's early beginnings, with the Bush government creating the war in Afganistan and Iraq, plus looking for other nations to strick an attack to keep it all going?

I'm all for going to war against islamo-fascist countries with opressive regimes that treat women like dogs and other barbaric behavior. I hope we get a chance to drop bombs on Iran before they do it to us with all those nuclear weapons they are trying to build. Imagine a nuke in the hands of 13th century barbarians and what kind of disaster that would be for the whole world. Also, I wouldn't mind turning Turkey into a parking lot seeing what they do to young girls when their fathers aren't able to pay off thier debts. If the islamic countries dropped off the face of the earth tommorow that would be one big step forward for the rest of mankind. Anyway, what the hell have they contributed to mankind since the 7th century? 
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« Reply #130 on: April 22, 2005, 12:24:18 AM »

Hello to all...I feel more comfortable now then when first came here....thanks to all for being nice...

Laurie......my husband is Roman Catholic also.....and my daughter is babtised Russian Orthodox ......I did have some problems with this...(not by my husband)but now all is fine...
Im greek /parents both born in Greece but live here in Australia....
Yes, we are living in terrible times ahead.....we must remember that our weapon is Prayer and lots of it....

Kizzy.....about Islam.....ther will be a war......and Islam will not be anymore.(that rhymes Smiley  )
And many will be babtised and many killed.....Saint Kosmas O Aitolos

In greek a prophecy of Saint Kosmas says that the Pope will be the cause......I have yet to figure what exactly those words mean.....I have come across a few explanations, but not quite understand them...
I guess we just need and wait and see what the Church In Rome (Roman Catholic) will have to say.....as for the Pope taking the new name, Saint Benedict...I read in todays paper that he had in mind the Saint Benedict of the 6th century......
Who knows what will happen.......though, if R.Catholics want to unite, then an EIGHTH ecumenical(council) will have to meet.....
This is also in Prophecy.......an EIGHTH council will meet .......I also read that the last days.......Our Orthodox Bishop will be the one who CROWNS the Antichrist.......
Glory be to God ,Theotokos and His Saints...
have mercy on me a sinner
helen....
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« Reply #131 on: April 22, 2005, 12:41:50 AM »

Can someone hook me up with a link or place where I can find the prophecies of Elder Paisios and/or St. Kosmas??

Thanks!

R
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« Reply #132 on: April 22, 2005, 12:57:45 AM »

Can someone hook me up with a link or place where I can find the prophecies of Elder Paisios and/or St. Kosmas??

Thanks!

R

Do you read Greek?

 ....some Greek(translation gets lost sometimes)...anyway found quite a few ....

Paisios......in greek...
http://www.rel.gr/index.php?rpage=paisios&rpage2=showkeimeno.php&link_id=16

in English.....various Saints on prophecy.....

http://members.cox.net/orthodoxheritage/Prophecies%20of%20Orthodox%20Church%20Fathers.htm

Hope that helps...
Glory Be to God....
helen.
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« Reply #133 on: April 22, 2005, 01:04:08 AM »

Over and out, I'm out for the night catch you all tomorow

Take Care, Laurie
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« Reply #134 on: April 22, 2005, 01:09:21 AM »

Over and out, I'm out for the night catch you all tomorow

Take Care, Laurie
Night Laurie....
Smiley
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« Reply #135 on: April 22, 2005, 04:02:47 AM »

Quote
I'm all for going to war against islamo-fascist countries with opressive regimes that treat women like dogs and other barbaric behavior.

I actually can't believe my eyes right now!!!

What kind of prejudice is this against Islamic Countries? I too am against fascist regimes and totalitarian theocratic governments, but that gives the North Atlantic Alliance no excuse to openly invade a country and bring war to people who never asked for.

Quote
I hope we get a chance to drop bombs on Iran before they do it to us with all those nuclear weapons they are trying to build.

Don't tell me you actually believe no Islamic country has nuclear weapons right now, excluding those who openly admit it? The collapse of the Soviet Union resulted in scientists from all over USSR flooding the nearby countries, in order to sell their knowledge and equipment.

Quote
Imagine a nuke in the hands of 13th century barbarians and what kind of disaster that would be for the whole world. Also, I wouldn't mind turning Turkey into a parking lot seeing what they do to young girls when their fathers aren't able to pay off thier debts.

Pakistan has nuclear weapons right now, and nothing terrible has happened. Same for India. And the people from both countries are largely below the basic standards of what we call a good life.

Quote
If the islamic countries dropped off the face of the earth tommorow that would be one big step forward for the rest of mankind. 

This is no attitude towards islamic countries.
There are two Palaestinian students in my university, who came all the way from Palaestine in search of a better future, just in case they might be able to overthrow the oppressing regime of the Jews in their country, yet I have never heard them complain not even once: "I just wish all the Jews would burn alive and leave us be."

Quote
Anyway, what the hell have they contributed to mankind since the 7th century?

Actually, the Arabic civilisation was far greater than the European Medieval in the 10th century (excluding Byzantium). You can certainly thank them for Mathematics, Algebra, Astronomy, navigation, the preservation of ancient Greek manuscripts, and many other things...


Quote
Kizzy.....about Islam.....ther will be a war......and Islam will not be anymore.(that rhymes Smiley  )
And many will be babtised and many killed.....Saint Kosmas O Aitolos

St. Bernadette of the Roman Catholic Church prophesised that all Muslims will become Christians in the first years of the new millenium.
St Kosmas Aitolos said that out of the Turks 1/3 will be killed, 1/3 will be baptised and 1/3 will leave for "Red Appletree", which tends to be translated the far corner of Middle East...

If it is the Will of the Lord, may it happen...
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« Reply #136 on: April 22, 2005, 04:14:32 AM »

st. malachy received the vision of the future, he saw all the popes from then until the one we are at now plus one. "the glory of the olive" is malachy's phrase for the new pope. before conclave alot of talk about this was in the air. some said he would be jewish or love the jews because the olive branch is peace but also the icon for judisim. after pope benedict was elected and chose his name after st. benedict who started the olivetans an organization in the catholic church who built a chapel on mt. olivet. where both catholics and jews believe that jesus will return to. pope benedict  is related with the word "olive" in alot of ways.

another prophecy came from the olivetans about 400 years ago, they said that "before the end of time one of our own will be pope". well i guess they were right.  

back to malachy.. malachy didn't write a phrase for the last pope, the phrase peter the roman was added in the mid 1800's it was never in his writings before then. also malachy didnt say if the end of the world would follow right after "the glory of the olive" pope. he just said from now(st malachys time)  till the olive pope and then there will be another who will be the end.

malachy said this about the last pope "In extreme persecution, the seat of the Holy Roman Church will be occupied by Peter the Roman, who will feed the sheep through many tribulations, at the term of which the city of seven hills will be destroyed, and the formidable Judge will judge his people. The End." but peter the roman was added later and to me it looks like he is going to try to help and but can't do anything about it because God is greater than any man.

let's talk about the city of seven hills...cough rome, right? well actually there is three known as the 7 hilled city. and guess what each one is in the heart of the three largest religions in the world. there is alot of things that click together about the end of the world but spend more time enjoying what you have now not what is to come
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« Reply #137 on: April 22, 2005, 04:27:13 AM »

st. malachy received the vision of the future, he saw all the popes from then until the one we are at now plus one.  "the glory of the olive" is malachy's phrase for the new pope.  before conclave alot of talk about this was in the air.  some said he would be jewish or love the jews because the olive branch is peace but also the icon for judisim.  after pope benedict was elected and chose his name after st. benedict who started the olivetans an organization in the catholic church who built a chapel on mt. olivet.  where both catholics and jews believe that jesus will return to.  pope benedict  is related with the word "olive" in alot of ways.

another prophecy came from the olivetans about 400 years ago, they said that "before the end of time one of our own will be pope".  well i guess they were right.   

back to malachy.. malachy didn't write a phrase for the last pope, the phrase peter the roman was added in the mid 1800's  it was never in his writings before then.  also malachy didnt say if the end of the world would follow right after "the glory of the olive" pope.  he just said from now(st malachys time)  till the olive pope and then there will be another who will be the end. 

malachy said this about the last pope "In extreme persecution, the seat of the Holy Roman Church will be occupied by Peter the Roman, who will feed the sheep through many tribulations, at the term of which the city of seven hills will be destroyed, and the formidable Judge will judge his people. The End."  but peter the roman was added later and to me it looks like he is going to try to help and but can't do anything about it because God is greater than any man.

let's talk about  the city of seven hills...cough rome, right?  well actually there is three known as the 7 hilled city.  and guess what each one is in the heart of the three largest religions in the world.  there is alot of things that click together about the end of the world but spend more time enjoying what you have now not what is to come

You're actually saying that St. Malachy saw Gloria De Olivae and then one more who he couldn't see, or is it how I understood it? Peter the Roman was certainly added later, but this does not mean that St. Benedict was wrong in predicting the last Pope will be from his ranks...

I don't think Benedict XVI is the last Pope: I believe he is the last Pope before the churches unite...
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« Reply #138 on: April 22, 2005, 05:12:02 AM »

st. malachy received the vision of the future, he saw all the popes from then until the one we are at now plus one.  "the glory of the olive" is malachy's phrase for the new pope.  before conclave alot of talk about this was in the air.  some said he would be jewish or love the jews because the olive branch is peace but also the icon for judisim.  after pope benedict was elected and chose his name after st. benedict who started the olivetans an organization in the catholic church who built a chapel on mt. olivet.  where both catholics and jews believe that jesus will return to.  pope benedict  is related with the word "olive" in alot of ways.

another prophecy came from the olivetans about 400 years ago, they said that "before the end of time one of our own will be pope".  well i guess they were right.   

back to malachy.. malachy didn't write a phrase for the last pope, the phrase peter the roman was added in the mid 1800's  it was never in his writings before then.  also malachy didnt say if the end of the world would follow right after "the glory of the olive" pope.  he just said from now(st malachys time)  till the olive pope and then there will be another who will be the end. 

malachy said this about the last pope "In extreme persecution, the seat of the Holy Roman Church will be occupied by Peter the Roman, who will feed the sheep through many tribulations, at the term of which the city of seven hills will be destroyed, and the formidable Judge will judge his people. The End."  but peter the roman was added later and to me it looks like he is going to try to help and but can't do anything about it because God is greater than any man.

let's talk about  the city of seven hills...cough rome, right?  well actually there is three known as the 7 hilled city.  and guess what each one is in the heart of the three largest religions in the world.  there is alot of things that click together about the end of the world but spend more time enjoying what you have now not what is to come

City of the seven hills........

You are talking about Constantinople aren't you?
Well, yes.......it becomes the third Rome...
First we had Rome....
Then it was Russia....
Then it becomes Constantinople.........where it all began..
Glory Be to God..
helen...
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« Reply #139 on: April 22, 2005, 08:36:42 AM »

My husband came from a catholic family, and I from protestant one. I noticed that his bible is packed full of information; About 20 more books in the bible than that of my king James bible, that has only a small token of 66 books in all. This leads me to believe, that the protestant churches were trying very hard to cover information that they didn't want to get out into the public, in fear that they would loose control of each congragation.

ARGGGGH!

Time for some Bible Facts:

  • Your King James bible is incomplete. The original version translated all of the books that are in the Vulgate (though not from the Vulgate).
  • The reason why the "extra" books were ever treated differently is that they do not exist in Hebrew. They are taken from the ancient Greek translation know as the Septuagint (typically abbreviated LXX).
  • The fact that these books don't exist in Hebrew cast doubt in the mind of some Protestants as to whether they were really legitimate scripture. That is why the bible societies stopped publishing them in the late 1800s.
  • Anglican churches do regonize them as scripture, but of a lesser status, and there is at least one Sunday reading from them every year.

Everything is not a conspiracy. Find yourself an RSV Common Bible and everything will be fine.
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« Reply #140 on: April 22, 2005, 05:24:28 PM »

I'm all for going to war against islamo-fascist countries with opressive regimes that treat women like dogs and other barbaric behavior. I hope we get a chance to drop bombs on Iran before they do it to us

Drop bombs on all of the women and children who also happen to live in that country?  That's better?!??  Nacho,  those aren't faceless "Bad Guy" countries.  There are Real Human Beings in them by the millions. 

aaarrrrghghhhhh.

Quote
. If the islamic countries dropped off the face of the earth tommorow that would be one big step forward for the rest of mankind. Anyway, what the hell have they contributed to mankind since the 7th century?

Let's see.  For a number of centuries there were contributions to mathematics, astronomy, and other sciences.  After a surge in a sort of hardline Islam this died off.  Avicenna and Averroes were two of the most famous.

Ebor
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« Reply #141 on: April 22, 2005, 06:09:04 PM »

Just to add to the scripture history, the Greek Septuagint was used in the early church.  Many believe that St. Paul himself used this canon of scripture, due to his Greek connections and some quotations found in his writings that might indicate its use.  As with many other things in the church, the canon of scripture was established at more than one council - notably the Council of Hippo in 393 and the Council of Carthage in 397.  Both councils acknowledged the Septuagint as the old testament canon of scripture. These books were in widespread use by many Jews and all early Christians.  The inspiration of the non-Hebrew books wasn't questioned until the Protestant reformation, partly because Macabbees backed up prayer for the dead.  This didn't fit with Protestant revisionist Christianity - the old "don't give me the facts, my mind is made up" routine.  What their "reformation" led to was really "deformation".  Last I heard, we had about 24,000 different protestant denominations, most of whom can't agree on anything except their ridiculous misinterpretation of scripture known as the "rapture".  They also wanted to reject "dogma" and leave scripture to personal interpretation. Just dare to question the "rapture" nonsense, however, and they'll act like you're the demon incarnate for questioning their "dogma".

As I've stated before, Orthodoxy holds the only hope for the future of Christianity - at least the fullness of Christianity as it was in the early church.
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« Reply #142 on: April 22, 2005, 07:11:51 PM »


[li]The reason why the "extra" books were ever treated differently is that they do not exist in Hebrew. They are taken from the ancient Greek translation know as the Septuagint (typically abbreviated LXX).[/li][li]The fact that these books don't exist in Hebrew cast doubt in the mind of some Protestants as to whether they were really legitimate scripture. That is why the bible societies stopped publishing them in the late 1800s.[/li][/list]
I think something also very important that is missing is WHY the missing books in Hebrew were excluded.  I read the webpage listing some "research" that some relatives "Bible Church" did, stating they follow the OT list of books ennumberated in the Council of Jamnia.  This tidbit is just silly.  They didn't happen to realize that it was a JEWISH Rabbinical Council (Jamnia) that decided to exlude the books since many of these "Apocryphal" books were recommended reading for new CHRISTIAN catechumens.  Evangelicals....I tell ya...

Everything is not a conspiracy. Find yourself an RSV Common Bible and everything will be fine.


Let's not get ahead of ourselves know - "better" is not utopia.
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« Reply #143 on: April 23, 2005, 02:07:11 AM »

I understand that everything isn't a conspricy and somethings are the way they are for reasons that humanity may or may not have caused. None the less, I will keep an open mind that there are holy scripture out there that haven't been accounted for. I'll  hope that some day I will have the honour of reading them.
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« Reply #144 on: April 23, 2005, 02:30:15 AM »

Ok, I was taught from my Lord, God, Jesus of the following:

"Love thy Enemy" and not "Hate thy Enemy and bomb them..."

"Turn the other cheek" and not "Hit the cheeks with bombs..."

Remember, to be a True Christian in Christ is to Love all and pray for all... keep the radical beliefs to yourself... I leave judgement to God and I leave change in Man to God... I have seen radical Christians(Catholic, Orthodox, Baptists etc...), Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, & Mormons... we all have our ego centric beliefs that God is only for us and no one else; if you don't follow our beliefs then "you will go to hell" some actually think... in the end, you and no one else may judge me, but God our Eternal and In Christ may judge me.

Walk with God and not radical beliefs...
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« Reply #145 on: April 23, 2005, 02:42:41 AM »

  Last I heard, we had about 24,000 different protestant denominations, most of whom can't agree on anything except their ridiculous misinterpretation of scripture known as the "rapture". They also wanted to reject "dogma" and leave scripture to personal interpretation. Just dare to question the "rapture" nonsense, however, and they'll act like you're the demon incarnate for questioning their "dogma".


Ain't it 'da truth!

I realize that many non-Orthodox take great offense when we state often "only Orthodox are Christians". I understand their discomfort because we should just state, at the most extreme, the we know we're Christians (and poor ones at that) and do not know IF they are are not.
But to my thinking it's this whole 'rapture' thing that brings out my dim view of their faith. It seems so very foreign. It seems, besides being the relatively modern error that it is, an attempt to make Christians (and some of them only) better, superior to other Christians, even those in their own church. We Orthodox know better, our Faith is True even though we ourselves are dismal sinners.
I do not doubt that this one thing is causing Protestant inroads to be made in both Roman Catholic and Orthodox Catholic flocks.
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« Reply #146 on: April 23, 2005, 09:37:39 AM »

Last I heard, we had about 24,000 different protestant denominations, most of whom can't agree on anything except their ridiculous misinterpretation of scripture known as the "rapture".

Well, at least the number is lower then the last time someone quoted it. :- Do you recall where you read this and what it was based on? If it's the Barrett Numbers, then your source has got it wrong. The number Barrett gives is for *all* Christian denominatoins/groups/jurisdictions not just Protestant and the method is counting each group in a country (the different members of the Anglican Communion) or ethnic group (Greek, Russian, etc) as individual groups. So the "can't agree" charge is not correct, either.

And as to "can't agree on anything" I would submit that most of the groups *do* agree on things like: 1 God, 3 Persons in the trinity, that sort of thing. Most of the protestant juridictions and churchs I am familiar with don't go on or teach about the "Rapture" much if at all.

May I ask just how much experience you have had with any Protestant churches and if so, which ones? The ones that may be heard on the radio are possibly ummm outside the main stream of belief. One should not tar all with the deeds of one or two, maybe?

Quote
They also wanted to reject "dogma" and leave scripture to personal interpretation. Just dare to question the "rapture" nonsense, however, and they'll act like you're the demon incarnate for questioning their "dogma".

Sounds like you may have run into a fringe. It is not fair to say that *all* are something because of the actions of a small segment.

Just to reiterate:  There is no one monolithic blob of "Protestantism".

Ebor
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« Reply #147 on: April 23, 2005, 12:25:53 PM »

Well, at least the number is lower then the last time someone quoted it.  :-  Do you recall where you read this and what it was based on?  If it's the Barrett Numbers, then your source has got it wrong.  The number Barrett gives is for *all* Christian denominatoins/groups/jurisdictions not just Protestant and the method is counting each group in a country (the different members of the Anglican Communion)  or ethnic group (Greek, Russian, etc) as individual groups.  So the "can't agree" charge is not correct, either.

Even if you account for all the national Orthodox Churches and take into consideration the consitutent members of the Anglican Communion, you're still not going to make a sizeable dent in that 24,000 number.  Protestant denominations are still going to make up the bulk of that number.  I will concede, however, that the vast majority of Protestants fall into a relatively small group of large mainline denominations.  It's the Evangelical and Charismatic fringe, with denominations that number only a few congregations, that ratchet up the total.

Just to reiterate:  There is no one monolithic blob of "Protestantism".

I dunno.  I always thought "chaos" summed up that blob pretty well.
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« Reply #148 on: April 23, 2005, 03:42:23 PM »

Well, at least the number is lower then the last time someone quoted it.  :-  Do you recall where you read this and what it was based on?  If it's the Barrett Numbers, then your source has got it wrong.  The number Barrett gives is for *all* Christian denominatoins/groups/jurisdictions not just Protestant and the method is counting each group in a country (the different members of the Anglican Communion)  or ethnic group (Greek, Russian, etc) as individual groups.  So the "can't agree" charge is not correct, either.

It is idiotic to consider the Russian Church a different denomination from the Greek Church: The Church is the same, whether it is in Greece, or in Russia, or in Serbia, or Bulgaria or Romania, or wherever else. Orthodox Christianity is the same, it's just the persons leading the hierarchy that are different. Other than that, the Church is the same (with slight non-dogmatical differences).

I guess Barrett counts the Church of Crete (Archdiocese) as a different denomination from the Church of Athens (autocephalous Archdiocese)? If so, he's probably trying to make the numbers look much bigger than in reality.
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« Reply #149 on: April 25, 2005, 01:14:31 PM »

I've been enjoying this thread quite a bit. Someone questioned my numbers when I said there were 24,000 different Protestant Christian denominations, claiming that the Barrett numbers separate individual religious groups, even though they might be part of a large denomination (e.g., separating Russian and Greek Orthodox). Actually, Barrett clearly states in the "World Christian Encyclopedia: A comparative survey of churches and religions" that there are 19 major world religions which are subdivided into a total of 270 large religious groups, and many smaller ones. 34,000 separate Christian groups have been identified in the world. Over half of them are independent churches that are not interested in linking with the big denominations.

So, I apologize, it wasn't quite 24,000. It is, however, approximately 20,000, give or take one or two thousand. The point here is that the unified church as it existed in the first centuries is shattered. When the pope exerted his supposed authority over everyone, especially from the 1100s on, the church began fracturing. He exerted authority that nobody in the early church believed he had - even many popes didn't believe in a papacy with the kind of authority and "infallibility" that the RC Church believes today. A quick reading of Pope St. Gregory and Pope St. Leo's sermons on the "keys of the Kingdom" scripture bears witness to the fact that they believed that the authority Jesus gave to Peter was extended to all of the apostles after the resurrection. The very fact that the church had councils to resolve important issues bears witness to the fact that nobody believed in the type of authority now ascribed to the pope by the RC Church. If they had believed in that type of authority, councils would have been unnecessary - even the Acts of the Apostles bears witness to the authority vested in a council - not one man.

My point is that it's as if a huge branch of the tree of the church broke off. Initially, this was the break off of Roman Catholicism. The protestant revolt was a direct response to this insistence on papal authority. They then broke from the RC Church and have become numerous Christian sects. In my estimation, the branch that broke off rotted and crumbled over the centuries into multiple denominations.

Someone also took offense at my claim that these myriad of denominations can't agree on anything. While I agree that it's nice that they believe in one God, three persons, that belief is not the sum total of Christian belief or practice. My point in all of this is that Scripture is not the sole source of revelation - Scripture and Tradition are. There are about 20,000 groups because somebody didn't agree with somebody else, and they formed their own versions of Christianity that fit their understanding of scripture. In the Church that Christ established, councils, guided by the Holy Spirit, clarified articles of belief and scripture in order to maintain the unity that Christ willed for His Church. Insistence on papal authority and subsequent protestant revolt has completely ruptured that unity.

I truly hope that the church will one day reunite, and I think this current pope is sincere when he says he wants unity. If he expects that unity to be with a RC understanding, however, it will never happen - even if I have to be the last Orthodox holdout!
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« Reply #150 on: April 25, 2005, 01:41:59 PM »


I truly hope that the church will one day reunite, and I think this current pope is sincere when he says he wants unity.  If he expects that unity to be with a RC understanding, however, it will never happen - even if I have to be the last Orthodox holdout!

I agree that he appears sincere, but his "one church, one shepherd" comment of this past weekend might need some further explanations.
Don't worry, as long as there is ONE Orthodox bishop, you won't be alone.
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« Reply #151 on: April 25, 2005, 06:35:52 PM »

Quote
Someone also took offense at my claim that these myriad of denominations can't agree on anything. While I agree that it's nice that they believe in one God, three persons, that belief is not the sum total of Christian belief or practice. My point in all of this is that Scripture is not the sole source of revelation - Scripture and Tradition are. There are about 20,000 groups because somebody didn't agree with somebody else, and they formed their own versions of Christianity that fit their understanding of scripture.

And what Tradition, exactly. do you suppose we should prescribe? You are acting as though there is actually total solidarity in the Churches, but there is not. That much, I would hope, is obvious. There are more Protestant denominations because there are fewer bad connotations for them for splitting off from a group. The fact that for larger, orlder Churches there is a sense of taboo associated with division is what keeps it officially together. I think you would find many members of any Church to be in disagreement over many things. That's certainly my experience. I suspect that we all have a different "version" of Christianity by your definition!
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« Reply #152 on: April 25, 2005, 11:48:33 PM »

It is idiotic to consider the Russian Church a different denomination from the Greek Church: The Church is the same, whether it is in Greece, or in Russia, or in Serbia, or Bulgaria or Romania, or wherever else. Orthodox Christianity is the same, it's just the persons leading the hierarchy that are different. Other than that, the Church is the same (with slight non-dogmatical differences).

I guess Barrett counts the Church of Crete (Archdiocese) as a different denomination from the Church of Athens (autocephalous Archdiocese)? If so, he's probably trying to make the numbers look much bigger than in reality.

Do you know Barrett's criteria for his data? He was counting individual organizations, and Churches in different countries.  Thus each member of the Anglican Communion was counted as a seperate body; they are not broken from any other due to any doctrine, they are the Anglican Church in those places. Similarly with the RC church, with each country that has an RC presence being counted.   Rather then guessing, one might consult Barrett to see how Crete and Athens were counted.  It's a 2 volume massive work that might be found in a large library with a good reference section.  Here we found it in Enoch-Pratt in Baltimore.

If you do not want his methodology to be used for *your* jurisdictions/groups, it would seem that you should not use it then against others

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« Reply #153 on: April 26, 2005, 08:45:00 AM »

It is idiotic to consider the Russian Church a different denomination from the Greek Church[.]

No, it isn't. "Denomination" has several meanings, and one of them refers to different units of church polity. The Greek and Russian churches are autonomous and therefore are different denominations in this sense-- and that is the sense that Barrett is using.

Quote
I guess Barrett counts the Church of Crete (Archdiocese) as a different denomination from the Church of Athens (autocephalous Archdiocese)?

I don't know; why don't you go and look for yourself?

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If so, he's probably trying to make the numbers look much bigger than in reality.

I don't know about "trying"; I don't know that there's any malice involved. I do think that his methodology inflates the numbers, however.
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« Reply #154 on: April 26, 2005, 10:33:33 AM »

I've actually looked at Barrett's numbers, something I doubt very many others have.

Understand that he counts groups in six categories: Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Protestant, Independent, and Marginal. The latter two categories both contain bodies that some might lump into any of the other four groups. "Protestant" contains the bodies that believe in organization: Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, and various congregational conferences etc. "Independent" contains both bodies that don't believe in organization and certain splinters from the other groups. For some reason, Barrett tends to count Anglican splinters as "Independent" and Orthodox splinters as "Orthodox".

The Anglican and Orthodox numbers are very similar, except that the Orthodox numbers reflect the problem of overlapping jurisdiction. But-- when the "Protestants" are split out into the major traditions, they also resemble the Orthodox. How many major traditions are there? It's a little hard to say: I'd guess less than twenty, maybe less than ten.

What drives the numbers up are the independents and marginals. But since these are groups that mostly don't believe in organization, it isn't surprising that their numbers are very large, and it isn't legitimate to attribute their numbers to the other bodies that are organized. If it comes to that, one can go straight back to Chalcedon, if not earlier. And it's simply not true to attribute all their divisions to disagreement; that's more a property of groups like Orthodox who are big on anathematizing.

Historically the major protestant groups have united into one big group in each country, plus various small to tiny dissenting gorups. Orthodoxy isn't following this pattern because of political resistance to elimination of overlapping jurisdiction among immigrant churches.
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« Reply #155 on: April 26, 2005, 11:02:45 AM »

I've actually looked at Barrett's numbers, something I doubt very many others have.

Understand that he counts groups in six categories: Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Protestant, Independent, and Marginal. The latter two categories both contain bodies that some might lump into any of the other four groups. "Protestant" contains the bodies that believe in organization: Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, and various congregational conferences etc. "Independent" contains both bodies that don't believe in organization and certain splinters from the other groups. For some reason, Barrett tends to count Anglican splinters as "Independent" and Orthodox splinters as "Orthodox".

The Anglican and Orthodox numbers are very similar, except that the Orthodox numbers reflect the problem of overlapping jurisdiction. But-- when the "Protestants" are split out into the major traditions, they also resemble the Orthodox. How many major traditions are there? It's a little hard to say: I'd guess less than twenty, maybe less than ten.

What drives the numbers up are the independents and marginals. But since these are groups that mostly don't believe in organization, it isn't surprising that their numbers are very large, and it isn't legitimate to attribute their numbers to the other bodies that are organized. If it comes to that, one can go straight back to Chalcedon, if not earlier. And it's simply not true to attribute all their divisions to disagreement; that's more a property of groups like Orthodox who are big on anathematizing.

Historically the major protestant groups have united into one big group in each country, plus various small to tiny dissenting gorups. Orthodoxy isn't following this pattern because of political resistance to elimination of overlapping jurisdiction among immigrant churches.


Darn it, didn't I say that about five posts back or so???  :'(
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« Reply #156 on: April 26, 2005, 01:33:06 PM »

Well, not exactly.

The more important point is that the image of protestantism breaking up into 22,000 pieces due to fractiousness is simply false.
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« Reply #157 on: April 26, 2005, 03:05:11 PM »

Just as a note to the "Protestant" discussion and mainline vs. fringe groups:
While in the process of converting I read Matthew Gallatin's book (Drinking from Shallow Wells? I can't quite recall it's title and I may have his name slightly wrong; it's published by Concilair Press (again, I think!). What I am sure of is that the protestantism he describes converting from was all but un-recognizable to me - it sounded like a series of cults, what he had been involved in before converting.
On the other hand...
I attended mainline Presbyterian Churches that had written confessions of faith (the Westminster Confession, and the Westminster Longer and Shorter Catechisms); there were also books of church order (sort of like cannons) and service books for weddings, baptisms, funerals, etc. All Protestants do not fly by the seat of their pants or go by the whims of the senior pastor. Even in our personal Bible reading we were warned against subjective personalized interpretations and to always be guided by the confessions of the church. We were taught Calvin's view that in communion we feed upon Christ - not corporially, but spiritually. It was not just a remembrance, it was a definite feeding upon Christ and entering upon mystical communion with him. So many "reformed church fathers" were quoted and referred to again and again (Calvin, Knox, Baxter, Edwards, the "Princeton Fathers" - the Hodges, Warfield, more recent theologians such as Kuyper, Van Til, Murray) - these were like venerated saints. Baptism was taught as a covenant-making sacrament whereby we were grafted into God's family and made members of his eternal kingdom, the church, as well as a personal spiritual death and resurrection. There was an ecclesiology, theology and small-case orthodoxy present. Not like these whacko fringe groups that should be called cults!

My Presbyterian/Protestant/Reformed heritage I now know is deficient. But for being formed in an historical vacuum and in reaction to a (at that time) very corrupt and worldly Roman Catholic Church, Calvin, Luther, Zwingli, Knox and company didn't do such a bad job. They were probably only vaguely aware of the Chuch in the East. I like to joke (but it may be at least partially true) that if the reformers only had had the internet they would have all become Orthodox!

Anyway...
It wasn't all that great a stretch for me to become Orthdox. Some Protestatn groups are NOT that far off from Orthodoxy. Why do you think so many of us have converted?
 
I didn't have to overcome a legion of un-orthodox (again, in the small case sense) heresies* to become Orthodox; to the contrary I was given the orthodox theological foundation to want to become Orthodox.
*The hereisies I refer to in some of these cult protestant groups I mean with a capital H; genuinely pagan heresies like the health and wealth, name it and claim it pentecostalisms or the near unitarian or at best modalist thinking of fringe evangelical groups; or charasmatics that refer to the Holy spirit as "it" etc.)

All it took for me was to identify two issues: apostolic succession and the real (physical) presence of Christ in the eucharist. Answer those one way and your are a Protestant (in the protestant with a brain sense, not the cult mentality sense); answer them in another way and you are Orthodox. Having been given a theological foundation for examinig and answering those questions is a tribute to my Presbyterian background. Fortunately for me that Presbyterian background occurred in evangelical-leaning, conservative, Bible-believing churches (rather than liberal, social gospel, liberation or feminist theology mainline churches).
Once I became convinced of those two things (which took about a month, but which in my heart I know I accepted almost immediately upon reading about Orthodoxy - At the Corner of East and Now (Mathewes-Green) - and even before attending my first liturgy, which really sealed it for me) everything else fell into place - Mary, icons, saints, prayers for the departed. Those two questions were D-day - my conversion was an assured event after answering those two questions. I could have converted in the first six weeks!
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« Reply #158 on: April 26, 2005, 04:17:56 PM »

The "splintering" of Protestantism is more than organizational, particularly during the last 50 years. Within some Protestant denominations there is often a bewildering variety of doctrinal beliefs, so that it would be difficult to perceive a unity of faith within them. For example, these days a conservative Presbyterian and a conservative Methodist are probably closer to each other in their beliefs than they are to their liberal co-religionists.
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« Reply #159 on: April 26, 2005, 04:48:43 PM »

The "splintering" of Protestantism is more than organizational, particularly during the last 50 years. Within some Protestant denominations there is often a bewildering variety of doctrinal beliefs, so that it would be difficult to perceive a unity of faith within them. For example, these days a conservative Presbyterian and a conservative Methodist are probably closer to each other in their beliefs than they are to their liberal co-religionists.

Maybe they are (though I think that's at least questionable) but it's certainly the case that traditionalist Presbyterian bodies are more different from the traditionalist Methodist bodies than the mainline (and therefore "liberal") UMC and PCUSA are from each other. Traditionalist groups are (among other things) about differentiation and the separation that implies; mainline groups are by their nature more diverse.

That's true in every organized tradition, and thus every tradition has its traditionalist schisms. But in every case but the Lutherans (where the LCMS has about 1/5 of the lutherans in the USA), the traditionalist septs are tiny in comparison the the main bodies. And now we seem to be swinging back and forth between condemnig schism per se and advocating a strict doctrinal unity-- which is in essence a call for schism.

If the Anglicans are any indication, the big organized "liberal" bodies are due for a shakeout in which there will be a schism between the radical liberals and the centrist mainstream. Of course, in the short run that will create more churches, but hey-- that's what doctrinal conformity is all about.
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« Reply #160 on: April 26, 2005, 04:56:19 PM »

very true James; yet they would not have that much in common with fringe pentecostal or hard core fundamentalist groups
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« Reply #161 on: April 26, 2005, 04:59:53 PM »

Keble makes a good point too; a Reformed Presbyterian or Orthodox (not in our sense) Presbyterian church will differ greatly from a conservative Wesleyan  church
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« Reply #162 on: April 26, 2005, 05:28:04 PM »

Wow! I didn't realize this could generate so much discussion! Please be aware, as I have stated before, that I am a former Roman Catholic who studied for the priesthood in a French seminary in Switzerland. I have deep ties to those outside of Orthodoxy, and I truly thank God that my strong Roman Catholic background led me to study the Fathers of the Church, the Seven Ecumenical Councils and ultimately to Orthodoxy.

In response to my last post, someone asked what "tradition" we should follow - whose tradition? The answer is far simpler than it seems. The Church's divinely guided Tradition in its seven Ecumenical Councils. These councils are where the unified church defined its beliefs and clarified its position. This is "Tradition", capital T, which is a source of revelation - not "tradition", little t, such as priestly celibacy in the RC Church. Only a return to the unified, original teaching of the church can reunite Chirstianity. It is also the only thing that can prevent thosands of different denominations from splintering. Some still want to call the 20,000 number ridiculous. So be it, but it doesn't matter to me whether there are 5,000 or 10,000 or 20,000 or 100,000. The fact is that each group, no matter how many there are, comes up with their own belief based on their understanding of scripture or the teaching of a "self-appointed" reformer - not the Church's divinely inspired understanding in its seven Ecumenical Councils as guided by the Holy Spirit through its proper Apostolic Succession. Orthodoxy is the only Christian religion on the face of the earth that has done this and continues to do this. Orthodoxy is unadulterated Christianity as pracitced in the early church in both its belief and liturgy. It's the old joke - how many Orthodox does it take to change a light bulb? We don't know, because Orthodoxy never changes anything! In Orthodoxy, we miserable sinners (I'm pretty sure I'm at the top of that list) possess the fullness of the deposit of faith - complete and unchanged.

As for those who are outside the communion of Orthodoxy, we simply leave it to God. I'm not here to judge who ultimately lives a greater life of Christian virtue than someone else. In fact, I'm certain that I will be held more accountable before the Almighty because I have been given such a great gift. As our Lord said, "He who knows his master's will and does things deserving of stripes will be beaten with many. He who does not know his master's will and does things deserving of stripes will be beaten with few." Those of us who are Orthodox have a much greater charge before God. I'm certain the other Orthodox out there know exactly what I mean!


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« Reply #163 on: April 27, 2005, 08:43:59 AM »

In response to my last post, someone asked what "tradition" we should follow - whose tradition? The answer is far simpler than it seems. The Church's divinely guided Tradition in its seven Ecumenical Councils.

... which of course then leads to the question of which tradition you follow in interpreting that tradition.

It's never simple.
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« Reply #164 on: April 27, 2005, 09:34:47 AM »

http://www.catholicplanet.com/articles/article41.htm

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« Reply #165 on: April 27, 2005, 09:56:37 AM »

Catholickid,

I have examined your link, and noted that this page quotes Matthew 17:1-8, and follows that with the following:

"This passage from Sacred Scripture describes both a true historical event, which occurred to Jesus and his disciples, and a future event which will occur in the Church. Concerning the future event, the figures of Jesus, Moses, and Elijah represent Christianity, Judaism, and Islam."

uhhmmm....I think I want to hear why Elijah = Islam beyond this being just a numerical coincidence.
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« Reply #166 on: April 27, 2005, 10:02:20 AM »


You don't take this stuff seriously do you? Talk about stretching! It seems to me that the writer of this 'prophecy' fails to remember that Scripture clearly states that the end will come at a time we don't expect. Nonetheless, I'd love to know what his reasoning is - where on earth does he get his oh-so-specific dates from? They certainly aren't in the 'prophecies' of Malachy or the Bible.

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« Reply #167 on: April 27, 2005, 11:50:54 AM »

I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say that the Seven Ecumenical Councils are subject to a "tradition" of interpretation. Following are the decrees of those councils. The first and second established the profession of faith (a profession recited in exactly this same form in every Orthodox Church in the world - a Creed that has been added to in the Western Church with the "filioque" clause). The last council confirmed the use of icons and visible representations of the spiritual world. Protestant reformers revolted against this in the 15 and 1600s. The councils in the middle dealt with who Christ was - true God and true Man. I can't imagine any "tradition' that claimed to be Christian finding any of these teachings subject to some sort of "interpretation". If they did disagree with any of the conciliar teachings, they would cease to be Christian. I'm not sure what they would be, but it wouldn't be Christian as taught by the unified Church through its divinely appointed Apostolic Succession.

Please let me know any teachings of these councils you disagree with or interpret with a different "tradition".


The First Ecumenical Council:
The Nicene Creed
A.D. 325

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten of his Father, of the substance of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten , not made, being of one substance with the Father. By whom all things were made, both which be in heaven and in earth. Who for us men and for our salvation came down [from heaven] and was incarnate and was made man. He suffered and the third day he rose again, and ascended into heaven. And he shall come again to judge both the quick and the dead. And [we believe] in the Holy Ghost. And whosoever shall say that there was a time when the Son of God was not, or that before he was begotten he was not, or that he was made of things that were not, or that he is of a different substance or essence [from the Father] or that he is a creature, or subject to change or conversion--all that so say, the Catholic and Apostolic Church anathematizes them.

Second Ecumenical Council:
The First Council Of Constantinople
A.D. 381

We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, begotten of his Father before all worlds, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost and the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the Right Hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead. Whose kingdom shall have no end.

And [we believe] in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver-of-Life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spake by the prophets. And [we believe] in one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. We acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins, [and] we look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

The Third Ecumenical Council:
The Council Of Ephesus
A.D. 431

[Many anathamas and positions set forth, the creeds of the first two ecumenical council affirmed and delineated, but no creed per say was produced. The main task of this council, under the sway of St. Cyril, was the anathematizing of Nestorius. As for the rest of the acts and statements made at the Third Ecumenical Council, are they not written in the 38 volume work: Early Church Fathers, Nicene And Post-Nicene Fathers, Series II, Vol. 14?]

The 12 Anathematisms Of St. Cyril Against Nestorius
1:
If anyone will not confess that the Emmanuel is very God, and that therefore the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God, inasmuch as in the flesh she bore the Word of God made flesh (as it is written, "The Word was made flesh"): let him be anathema.

2:
If anyone shall not confess that the Word of God the Father is united hypostatically to flesh, and that with that flesh of his own, he is one only Christ both God and man at the same time: let him be anathema.

3:
If anyone shall after the [hypostatic] union divide the hypostases in the one Christ, joining them by that connexion alone, which happens according to worthiness, or even authority and power, and not rather by a coming together, which is made by natural union: let him be anathema.

4:
If anyone shall divide between two persons or subsistences those expressions which are contained in the Evangelical and Apostolical writings, or which have been said concerning Christ by the Saints, or by himself, and shall apply some to him as to a man separate from the Word of God, and shall apply others to the only Word of God the Father, on the ground that they are fit to be applied to God: let him be anathema.

5:
If anyone shall dare to say that the Christ is a Theophorus [that is, God-bearing] man and not rather that he is very God, as an only Son through nature, because "the Word was made flesh," and "hath a share in flesh and blood as we do": let him be anathema.

6:
If anyone shall dare say that the Word of God the Father is the God of Christ or the Lord of Christ, and shall not rather confess him as at the same time both God and Man, since according to the Scriptures, "The Word was made flesh": let him be anathema.

7:
If anyone shall say that Jesus as man is only energized by the Word of God, and that the glory of the Only-begotten is attributed to him as something not properly his: let him be anathema.

8:
If anyone shall dare to say that the assumed man ought to be worshipped together with God the Word, and glorified together with him, and recognised together with him as God, and yet as two different things, the one with the other (for this "Together with" is added [i. e., by the Nestorians] to convey this meaning); and shall not rather with one adoration worship the Emmanuel and pay to him one glorification, as [it is written] "The Word was made flesh": let him be anathema.

9:
If any man shall say that the one Lord Jesus Christ was glorified by the Holy Ghost, so that he used through him a power not his own and from him received power against unclean spirits and power to work miracles before men and shall not rather confess that it was his own Spirit through which he worked these divine signs: let him be anathema.

10:
Whosoever shall say that it is not the divine Word himself, when he was made flesh and had become man as we are, but another than he, a man born of a woman, yet different from him, who is become our Great High Priest and Apostle; or if any man shall say that he offered himself in sacrifice for himself and not rather for us, whereas, being without sin, he had no need of offering or sacrifice: let him be anathema.

11:
Whosoever shall not confess that the flesh of the Lord giveth life and that it pertains to the Word of God the Father as his very own, but shall pretend that it belongs to another person who is united to him [i.e., the Word] only according to honour, and who has served as a dwelling for the divinity; and shall not rather confess, as we say, that that flesh giveth life because it is that of the Word who giveth life to all: let him be anathema.

12:
Whosoever shall not recognize that the Word of God suffered in the flesh, that he was crucified in the flesh, and that likewise in that same flesh he tasted death and that he is become the first-begotten of the dead, for, as he is God, he is the life and it is he that giveth life: let him be anathema.

The Fourth Ecumenical Council:
The Council of Chalcedon
A.D. 451

Following the holy Fathers we teach with one voice that the Son [of God] and our Lord Jesus Christ is to be confessed as one and the same [Person], that he is perfect in Godhead and perfect in manhood, very God and very man, of a reasonable soul and [human] body consisting, consubstantial with the Father as touching his Godhead, and consubstantial with us as touching his manhood; made in all things like unto us, sin only excepted; begotten of his Father before the worlds according to his Godhead; but in these last days for us men and for our salvation born [into the world] of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God according to his manhood. This one and the same Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son [of God] must be confessed to be in two natures, inseparably [united], and that without the distinction of natures being taken away by such union, but rather the peculiar property of each nature being preserved and being united in one Person and subsistence, not separated or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son and only-begotten, God the Word, our Lord Jesus Christ, as the Prophets of old time have spoken concerning him, and as the Lord Jesus Christ hath taught us, and as the Creed of the Fathers hath delivered to us.

These things, therefore, having been expressed by us with the greatest accuracy and attention, the holy Ecumenical Synod defines that no one shall be suffered to bring forward a different faith, nor to write, nor to put together, nor to excogitate, nor to teach it to others. But such as dare either to put together another faith, or to bring forward or to teach or to deliver a different Creed to as wish to be converted to the knowledge of the truth, from the Gentiles, or Jews or any heresy whatever, if they be Bishops or clerics let them be deposed, the Bishops from the Episcopate, and the clerics from the clergy; but if they be monks or laics: let them be anathematized.

The Fifth Ecumenical Council:
The Second Council of Constantinople
A.D. 553

The Capitula Of The Council
1:
If anyone shall not confess that the nature or essence of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is one, as also the force and the power; [if anyone does not confess] a consubstantial Trinity, one Godhead to be worshipped in three subsistences or Persons: let him be anathema. For there is but one God even the Father of whom are all things, and one Lord Jesus Christ through whom are all things, and one Holy Spirit in whom are all things.

2:
If anyone shall not confess that the Word of God has two nativities, the one from all eternity of the Father, without time and without body; the other in these last days, coming down from heaven and being made flesh of the holy and glorious Mary, Mother of God and always a virgin, and born of her: let him be anathema.

3:
If anyone shall say that the wonder-working Word of God is one [Person] and the Christ that suffered another; or shall say that God the Word was with the woman-born Christ, or was in him as one person in another, but that he was not one and the same our Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, incarnate and made man, and that his miracles and the sufferings which of his own will he endured in the flesh were not of the same [Person]: let him be anathema.

4:
If anyone shall say that the union of the Word of God to man was only according to grace or energy, or dignity, or equality of honour, or authority, or relation, or effect, or power, or according to good pleasure in this sense that God the Word was pleased with a man, that is to say, that he loved him for his own sake, as says the senseless Theodorus, or [if anyone pretends that this union exists only] so far as likeness of name is concerned, as the Nestorians understand, who call also the Word of God Jesus and Christ, and even accord to the man the names of Christ and of Son, speaking thus clearly of two persons, and only designating disingenuously one Person and one Christ when the reference is to his honour, or his dignity, or his worship; if anyone shall not acknowledge as the Holy Fathers teach, that the union of God the Word is made with the flesh animated by a reasonable and living soul, and that such union is made synthetically and hypostatically, and that therefore there is only one Person, to wit: our Lord Jesus Christ, one of the Holy Trinity: let him be anathema. As a matter of fact the word "union" has many meanings, and the partisans of Apollinaris and Eutyches have affirmed that these natures are confounded inter se, and have asserted a union produced by the mixture of both. On the other hand the followers of Theodorus and of Nestorius rejoicing in the division of the natures, have taught only a relative union. Meanwhile the Holy Church of God, condemning equally the impiety of both sorts of heresies, recognises the union of God the Word with the flesh synthetically, that is to say, hypostatically. For in the mystery of Christ the synthetical union not only preserves unconfusedly the natures which are united, but also allows no separation.

5:
If anyone understands the expression "one only Person of our Lord Jesus Christ" in this sense, that it is the union of many hypostases, and if he attempts thus to introduce into the mystery of Christ two hypostases, or two Persons, and, after having introduced two persons, speaks of one Person only out of dignity, honour or worship, as both Theodorus and Nestorius insanely have written; if anyone shall calumniate the holy Council of Chalcedon, pretending that it made use of this expression [one hypostasis] in this impious sense, and if he will not recognize rather that the Word of God is united with the flesh hypostatically, and that therefore there is but one hypostasis or one only Person, and that the holy Council of Chalcedon has professed in this sense the one Person of our Lord Jesus Christ: let him be anathema. For since one of the Holy Trinity has been made man, viz.: God the Word, the Holy Trinity has not been increased by the addition of another person or hypostasis.

6:
If anyone shall not call in a true acceptation, but only in a false acceptation, the holy, glorious, and ever-virgin Mary, the Mother of God, or shall call her so only in a relative sense, believing that she bare only a simple man and that God the word was not incarnate of her, but that the incarnation of God the Word resulted only from the fact that he united himself to that man who was born [of her]; if he shall calumniate the Holy Synod of Chalcedon as though it had asserted the Virgin to be Mother of God according to the impious sense of Theodore; or if anyone shall call her the mother of a man or the Mother of Christ, as if Christ were not God, and shall not confess that she is exactly and truly the Mother of God, because that God the Word who before all ages was begotten of the Father was in these last days made flesh and born of her, and if anyone shall not confess that in this sense the holy Synod of Chalcedon acknowledged her to be the Mother of God: let him be anathema.

7:
If anyone using the expression, "in two natures," does not confess that our one Lord Jesus Christ has been revealed in the divinity and in the humanity, so as to designate by that expression a difference of the natures of which an ineffable union is unconfusedly made, [a union] in which neither the nature of the Word was changed into that of the flesh, nor that of the flesh into that of the Word, for each remained that it was by nature, the union being hypostatic; but shall take the expression with regard to the mystery of Christ in a sense so as to divide the parties, or recognising the two natures in the only Lord Jesus, God the Word made man, does not content himself with taking in a theoretical manner the difference of the natures which compose him, which difference is not destroyed by the union between them, for one is composed of the two and the two are in one, but shall make use of the number [two] to divide the natures or to make of them Persons properly so called: let him be anathema.

8:
If anyone uses the expression "of two natures," confessing that a union was made of the Godhead and of the humanity, or the expression "the one nature made flesh of God the Word," and shall not so understand those expressions as the holy Fathers have taught, to wit: that of the divine and human nature there was made an hypostatic union, whereof is one Christ; but from these expressions shall try to introduce one nature or substance [made by a mixture] of the Godhead and manhood of Christ; let him be anathema. For in teaching that the only-begotten Word was united hypostatically [to humanity] we do not mean to say that there was made a mutual confusion of natures, but rather each [nature] remaining what it was, we understand that the Word was united to the flesh. Wherefore there is one Christ, both God and man, consubstantial with the Father as touching his Godhead, and consubstantial with us as touching his manhood. Therefore they are equally condemned and anathematized by the Church of God, who divide or part the mystery of the divine dispensation of Christ, or who introduce confusion into that mystery.

9:
If anyone shall take the expression, Christ ought to be worshipped in his two natures, in the sense that he wishes to introduce thus two adorations, the one in special relation to God the Word and the other as pertaining to the man; or if anyone to get rid of the flesh, [that is of the humanity of Christ,] or to mix together the divinity and the humanity, shall speak monstrously of one only nature or essence of the united (natures), and so worship Christ, and does not venerate, by one adoration, God the Word made man, together with his flesh, as the Holy Church has taught from the beginning: let him be anathema.

10:
If anyone does not confess that our Lord Jesus Christ who was crucified in the flesh is true God and the Lord of Glory and one of the Holy Trinity: let him be anathema.

11:
If anyone does not anathematize Arius, Eunomius, Macedonius, Apollinaris, Nestorius, Eutyches and Origen, as well as their impious writings, as also all other heretics already condemned and anathematized by the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and by the aforesaid four Holy Synods and [if anyone does not equally anathematize] all those who have held and hold or who in their impiety persist in holding to the end the same opinion as those heretics just mentioned: let him be anathema.

12:
If anyone defends the impious Theodore of Mopsuestia, who has said that the Word of God is one person, but that another person is Christ, vexed by the sufferings of the soul and the desires of the flesh, and separated little by little above that which is inferior, and become better by the progress in good works and irreproachable in Iris manner of life, as a mere man was baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, and obtained by this baptism the grace of the Holy Spirit, and became worthy of Sonship, and to be worshipped out of regard to the Person of God the Word (just as one worships the image of an emperor) and that he is become, after the resurrection, unchangeable in his thoughts and altogether without sin. And, again, this same impious Theodore has also said that the union of God the Word with Christ is like to that which, according to the doctrine of the Apostle, exists between a man and his wife, "They twain shall be in one flesh." The same [Theodore] has dared, among numerous other blasphemies, to say that when after the resurrection the Lord breathed upon his disciples, saying, "Receive the Holy Ghost," he did not really give them the Holy Spirit, but that he breathed upon them only as a sign. He likewise has said that the profession of faith made by Thomas when he had, after the resurrection, touched the hands and the side of the Lord, viz.: "My Lord and my God," was not said in reference to Christ, but that Thomas, filled with wonder at the miracle of the resurrection, thus thanked God who had raised up Christ. And moreover (which is still more scandalous) this same Theodore in his Commentary on the Acts of the Apostles compares Christ to Plato, Manichaeus, Epicurus and Marcion, and says that as each of these men having discovered his own doctrine, had given his name to his disciples, who were called Platonists, Manicheans, Epicureans and Marcionites, just so Christ, having discovered his doctrine, had given the name Christians to his disciples. If, then, anyone shall defend this most impious Theodore and his impious writings, in which he vomits the blasphemies mentioned above, and countless others besides against our Great God and Saviour Jesus Christ, and if anyone does not anathematize him or his impious writings, as well as all those who protect or defend him, or who assert that his exegesis is orthodox, or who write in favour of him and of his impious works, or those who share the same opinions, or those who have shared them and still continue unto the end in this heresy: let him be anathema.

13:
If anyone shall defend the impious writings of Theodoret, directed against the true faith and against the first holy Synod of Ephesus and against St. Cyril and his 12 Anathemas, and [defends] that which he has written in defence of the impious Theodore and Nestorius, and of others having the same opinions as the aforesaid Theodore and Nestorius, if anyone admits them or their impiety, or shall give the name of impious to the doctors of the Church who profess the hypostatic union of God the Word; and if anyone does not anathematize these impious writings and those who have held or who hold these sentiments, and all those who have written contrary to the true faith or against St. Cyril and his 12 Chapters, and who die in their impiety: let him be anathema.

14:
If anyone shall defend that letter which Ibas is said to have written to Maris the Persian, in which he denies that the Word of God incarnate of Mary, the Holy Mother of God and ever-virgin, was made man, but says that a mere man was born of her, whom he styles a Temple, as though the Word of God was one Person and the man another person; in which letter also he reprehends St. Cyril as a heretic, when he teaches the right faith of Christians, and charges him with writing things like to the wicked Apollinaris. In addition to this he vituperates the First Holy Council of Ephesus, affirming that it deposed Nestorius without discrimination and without examination. The aforesaid impious epistle styles the 12 Chapters of Cyril of blessed memory, impious and contrary to the right faith and defends Theodore and Nestorius and their impious teachings and writings. If anyone therefore shall defend the aforementioned epistle and shall not anathematize it and those who defend it and say that it is right or that a part of it is right, or if anyone shall defend those who have written or shall write in its favour, or in defence of the impieties which are contained in it, as well as those who shall presume to defend it or the impieties which it contains in the name of the Holy Fathers or of the Holy Synod of Chalcedon, and shall remain in these offences unto the end: let him be anathema.

The Sixth Ecumenical Council:
The Third Council Of Constantinople
A.D. 680-681

The Definition Of Faith
The holy, great, and Ecumenical Synod which has been assembled by the grace of God, and the religious decree of the most religious and faithful and mighty Sovereign Constantine, in this God-protected and royal city of Constantinople, New Rome, in the Hall of the imperial Palace, called Trullus, has decreed as follows.

The only-begotten Son, and Word of God the Father, who was made man in all things like unto us without sin, Christ our true God, has declared expressly in the words of the Gospel, "I am the light of the world he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life." And again, "My peace I leave with, you, my peace I give unto you." Our most gentle Sovereign, the champion of orthodoxy, and opponent of evil doctrine, being reverentially led by this divinely uttered doctrine of peace, and having convened this our holy and Ecumenical assembly, has united the judgment of the whole Church. Wherefore this our holy and Ecumenical Synod having driven away the impious error which had prevailed for a certain time until now, and following closely the straight path of the holy and approved Fathers, has piously given its full assent to the five holy and Ecumenical Synods (that is to say, to that of the 318 holy Fathers who assembled in Nice against the raging Arius; and the next in Constantinople of the 150 God-inspired men against Macedonius the adversary of the Spirit, and the impious Apollinaris; and also the first in Ephesus of 200 venerable men convened against Nestorius the Judaizer; and that in Chalcedon of 630 God-inspired Fathers against Eutyches and Dioscorus hated of God; and in addition to these, to the last, that is the Fifth holy Synod assembled in this place, against Theodore of Mopsuestia, Origen, Didymus, and Evagrius, and the writings of Theodoret against the 12 Chapters of the celebrated Cyril, and the Epistle which was said to be written by Ibas to Maris the Persian), renewing in all things the ancient decrees of religion, and chasing away the impious doctrines of irreligion. And this our holy and Ecumenical Synod inspired of God has set its seal to the Creed which was put forth by the 318 Fathers, and again religiously confirmed by the 150, which also the other holy synods cordially received and ratified for the taking away of every soul-destroying heresy.

The Nicene Creed of the 318 holy Fathers: We believe, etc.

The Creed of the 150 holy Fathers assembled at Constantinople: We believe, etc.

The holy and Ecumenical Synod further says, this pious and orthodox Creed of the Divine grace would be sufficient for the full knowledge and confirmation of the orthodox faith. But as the author of evil, who, in the beginning, availed himself of the aid of the serpent, and by it brought the poison of death upon the human race, has not desisted, but in like manner now, having found suitable instruments for working out his will (we mean Theodorus, who was Bishop of Pharan, Sergius, Pyrrhus, Paul and Peter, who were Archbishops of this royal city, and moreover, Honorius who was Pope of the elder Rome, Cyrus Bishop of Alexandria, Macarius who was lately bishop of Antioch, and Stephen his disciple), has actively employed them in raising up for the whole Church the stumbling-blocks of one will and one operation in the two natures of Christ our true God, one of the Holy Trinity; thus disseminating, in novel terms, amongst the orthodox people, an heresy similar to the mad and wicked doctrine of the impious Apollinaris, Severus, and Themistius, and endeavouring craftily to destroy the perfection of the incarnation of the same our Lord Jesus Christ, our God, by blasphemously representing his flesh endowed with a rational soul as devoid of will or operation. Christ, therefore, our God, has raised up our faithful Sovereign, a new David, having found him a man after his own heart, who as it is written, "has not suffered his eyes to sleep nor his eyelids to slumber," until he has found a perfect declaration of orthodoxy by this our God-collected and holy Synod; for, according to the sentence spoken of God, "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them," the present holy and Ecumenical Synod faithfully receiving and saluting with uplifted hands as well the suggestion which by the most holy and blessed Agatho, Pope of ancient Rome, was sent to our most pious and faithful Emperor Constantine, which rejected by name those who taught or preached one will and one operation in the dispensation of the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ who is our very God, has likewise adopted that other synodal suggestion which was sent by the Council holden under the same most holy Pope, composed of 125 Bishops, beloved of God, to his God-instructed tranquillity, as consonant to the holy Council of Chalcedon and to the Tome of the most holy and blessed Leo, Pope of the same old Rome, which was directed to St. Flavian, which also this Council called the Pillar of the right faith; and also agrees with the Synodal Epistles which were written by Blessed Cyril against the impious Nestorius and addressed to the Oriental Bishops. Following the five holy Ecumenical Councils and the holy and approved Fathers, with one voice defining that our Lord Jesus Christ must be confessed to be very God and very man, one of the holy and consubstantial and life-giving Trinity, perfect in Deity and perfect in humanity, very God and very man, of a reasonable soul and human body subsisting; consubstantial with the Father as touching his Godhead and consubstantial with us as touching his manhood; in all things like unto us, sin only excepted; begotten of his Father before all ages according to his Godhead, but in these last days for us men and for our salvation made man of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary, strictly and properly the Mother of God according to the flesh; one and the same Christ our Lord the only-begotten Son of two natures un-confusedly, unchangeably, inseparably indivisibly to be recognized, the peculiarities of neither nature being lost by the union but rather the proprieties of each nature being preserved, concurring in one Person and in one subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons but one and the same only-begotten Son of God, the Word, our Lord Jesus Christ, according as the Prophets of old have taught us and as our Lord Jesus Christ himself hath instructed us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers hath delivered to us; defining all this we likewise declare that in him are two natural wills and two natural operations indivisibly, inconvertibly, inseparably, inconfusedly, according to the teaching of the holy Fathers. And these two natural wills are not contrary the one to the other (God forbid!) as the impious heretics assert, but his human will follows and that not as resisting and reluctant, but rather as subject to his divine and omnipotent will. For it was right that the flesh should be moved but subject to the divine will, according to the most wise Athanasius. For as his flesh is called and is the flesh of God the Word, so also the natural will of his flesh is called and is the proper will of God the Word, as he himself says: "I came down from heaven, not that I might do mine own will but the will of the Father which sent me!" where he calls his own will the will of his flesh, inasmuch as his flesh was also his own. For as his most holy and immaculate animated flesh was not destroyed because it was deified but continued in its own state and nature, so also his human will, although deified, was not suppressed, but was rather preserved according to the saying of Gregory Theologus: "His will [i.e., the Saviour's] is not contrary to God but altogether deified."

We glorify two natural operations indivisibly, immutably, inconfusedly, inseparably in the same our Lord Jesus Christ our true God, that is to say a divine operation and a human operation, according to the divine preacher Leo, who most distinctly asserts as follows: "For each form does in communion with the other what pertains properly to it, the Word, namely, doing that which pertains to the Word, and the flesh that which pertains to the flesh."

For we will not admit one natural operation in God and in the creature, as we will not exalt into the divine essence what is created, nor will we bring down the glory of the divine nature to the place suited to the creature.

We recognize the miracles and the sufferings as of one and the same [Person], but of one or of the other nature of which he is and in which he exists, as Cyril admirably says. Preserving therefore the inconfusedness and indivisibility, we make briefly this whole confession, believing our Lord Jesus Christ to be one of the Trinity and after the incarnation our true God, we say that his two natures shone forth in his one subsistence in which he both performed the miracles and endured the sufferings through the whole of his economic conversation, and that not in appearance only but in very deed, and this by reason of the difference of nature which must be recognized in the same Person, for although joined together yet each nature wills and does the things proper to it and that indivisibly and inconfusedly. Wherefore we confess two wills and two operations, concurring most fitly in him for the salvation of the human race.

These firings, therefore, with all diligence and care having been formulated by us, we define that it be permitted to no one to bring forward, or to write, or to compose, or to think, or to teach a different faith. Whosoever shall presume to compose a different faith, or to propose, or teach, or hand to those wishing to be converted to the knowledge of the truth, from the Gentiles or Jews, or from any heresy, any different Creed; or to introduce a new voice or invention of speech to subvert these things which now have been determined by us, all these, if they be Bishops or clerics let them be deposed, the Bishops from the Episcopate, the clerics from the clergy; but if they be monks or laymen: let them be anathematized.

The Seventh Ecumenical Council:
The Second Council Of Nice
A.D. 787

The Decree Of The Holy, Great, Ecumenical Synod
The holy, great, and Ecumenical Synod which by the grace of God and the will of the pious and Christ-loving Emperors, Constantine and Irene, his mother, was gathered together for the second time at Nice, the illustrious metropolis of Bithynia, in the holy church of God which is named Sophia, having followed the tradition of the Catholic Church, hath defined as follows:

Christ our Lord, who hath bestowed upon us the light of the knowledge of himself, and hath redeemed us from the darkness of idolatrous madness, having espoused to himself the Holy Catholic Church without spot or defect, promised that he would so preserve her: and gave his word to this effect to his holy disciples when he said: "Lo! I am with you always, even unto the end of the world," which promise he made, not only to them, but to us also who should believe in his name through their word. But some, not considering of this gift, and having become fickle through the temptation of the wily enemy, have fallen from the right faith; for, withdrawing from the traditions of the Catholic Church, they have erred from the truth and as the proverb saith: "The husbandmen have gone astray in their own husbandry and have gathered in their hands nothingness," because certain priests, priests in name only, not in fact, had dared to speak against the God-approved ornament of the sacred monuments, of whom God cries aloud through the prophet, "Many pastors have corrupted my vineyard, they have polluted my portion."

And, forsooth, following profane men, led astray by their carnal sense, they have calumniated the Church of Christ our God, which he hath espoused to himself, and have failed to distinguish between holy and profane, styling the images of our Lord and of his Saints by the same name as the statues of diabolical idols. Seeing which things, our Lord God (not willing to behold his people corrupted by such manner of plague) hath of his good pleasure called us together, the chief of his priests, from every quarter, moved with a divine zeal and brought hither by the will of our princes, Constantine and Irene, to the end that the traditions of the Catholic Church may receive stability by our common decree. Therefore, with all diligence, making a thorough examination and analysis, and following the trend of the truth, we diminish nought, we add nought, but we preserve unchanged all things which pertain to the Catholic Church, and following the Six Ecumenical Synods, especially that which met in this illustrious metropolis of Nice, as also that which was afterwards gathered together in the God-protected Royal City.

We believe ...life of the world to come. Amen.

We detest and anathematize Arius and all the sharers of his absurd opinion; also Macedonius and those who following him are well styled "Foes of the Spirit" (Pneumatomachi). We confess that our Lady, St. Mary, is properly and truly the Mother of God, because she was the Mother after the flesh of One Person of the Holy Trinity, to wit, Christ our God, as the Council of Ephesus has already defined when it cast out of the Church the impious Nestorius with his colleagues, because he taught that there were two Persons [in Christ]. With the Fathers of this synod we confess that he who was incarnate of the immaculate Mother of God and Ever-Virgin Mary has two natures, recognizing him as perfect God and perfect man, as also the Council of Chalcedon hath promulgated, expelling from the divine Atrium [<greek>aulhs</greek>] as blasphemers, Eutyches and Dioscorus; and placing in the same category Severus, Peter and a number of others, blaspheming in divers fashions. Moreover, with these we anathematize the fables of Origen, Evagrius, and Didymus, in accordance with the decision of the Fifth Council held at Constantinople. We affirm that in Christ there be two wills and two operations according to the reality of each nature, as also the Sixth Synod, held at Constantinople, taught, casting out Sergius, Honorius, Cyrus, Pyrrhus, Macarius, and those who agree with them, and all those who are unwilling to be reverent.

To make our confession short, we keep unchanged all the ecclesiastical traditions handed down to us, whether in writing or verbally, one of which is the making of pictorial representations, agreeable to the history of the preaching of the Gospel, a tradition useful in many respects, but especially in this, that so the incarnation of the Word of God is shown forth as real and not merely phantastic, for these have mutual indications and without doubt have also mutual significations.

We, therefore, following the royal pathway and the divinely inspired authority of our Holy Fathers and the traditions of the Catholic Church (for, as we all know, the Holy Spirit indwells her), define with all certitude and accuracy that just as the figure of the precious and life-giving Cross, so also the venerable and holy images, as well in painting and mosaic as of other fit materials, should be set forth in the holy churches of God, and on the sacred vessels and on the vestments and on hangings and in pictures both in houses and by the wayside, to wit, the figure of our Lord God and Saviour Jesus Christ, of our spotless Lady, the Mother of God, of the honourable Angels, of all Saints and of all pious people. For by so much more frequently as they are seen in artistic representation, by so much more readily are men lifted up to the memory of their prototypes, and to a longing after them; and to these should be given due salutation and honourable reverence, not indeed that true worship of faith which pertains alone to the divine nature; but to these, as to the figure of the precious and life-giving Cross and to the Book of the Gospels and to the other holy objects, incense and lights may be offered according to ancient pious custom. For the honour which is paid to the image passes on to that which the image represents, and he who reveres the image reveres in it the subject represented. For thus the teaching of our holy Fathers, that is the tradition of the Catholic Church, which from one end of the earth to the other hath received the Gospel, is strengthened. Thus we follow Paul, who spake in Christ, and the whole divine Apostolic company and the holy Fathers, holding fast the traditions which we have received. So we sing prophetically the triumphal hymns of the Church, "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Sion; Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem. Rejoice and be glad with all thy heart. The Lord hath taken away from thee the oppression of thy adversaries; thou art redeemed from the hand of thine enemies. The Lord is a King in the midst of thee; thou shalt not see evil any more, and peace be unto thee forever."

Those, therefore who dare to think or teach otherwise, or as wicked heretics to spurn the traditions of the Church and to invent some novelty, or else to reject some of those things which the Church hath received (e.g., the Book of the Gospels, or the image of the cross, or the pictorial icons, or the holy reliques of a martyr), or evilly and sharply to devise anything subversive of the lawful traditions of the Catholic Church or to turn to common uses the sacred vessels or the venerable monasteries, if they be Bishops or Clerics, we command that they be deposed; if religious or laics, that they be cut off from communion.
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« Reply #168 on: April 27, 2005, 12:22:15 PM »

Oh, I forgot.  The 3rd Ecumenical Council dealt with the Virgin Mary as the "Theotokos" - God bearer or Mother of God, a title many protestants today abhor.
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« Reply #169 on: April 27, 2005, 12:45:55 PM »

I just thought I'ld throw it out there. The guy admited when he was wrong. I disagree with a lot on there... but its relevant to the topic, and some has been accurate.
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« Reply #170 on: April 27, 2005, 01:18:36 PM »

I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say that the Seven Ecumenical Councils are subject to a "tradition" of interpretation. Following are the decrees of those councils.

Well, actually your list is incomplete. For instance, if you went to CCEL--

oh, and by the way: you rather obviously copied these texts from some on-line source. How about next time you just link to them instead of chewing up bandwith here with your copies?

--you would find a list of forty canons of Nicea. (Also, I believe the form of the creed as you give it dates from Ephesus, not Nicea.) How do all these canons apply to the present? Well, if you look at the canons concerning the date of Easter, for instance, you would find that they do not give a specific formula. That came later.

But moving on: As it happens, Western churches as rule accept trinitarian and Christological judgements of the seven councils. Therefore, that agreement doesn't get one very far. It's the rest of tradition that makes the difference.
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