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Author Topic: What's the One True Church?  (Read 2421 times) Average Rating: 0
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Jovan
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« Reply #45 on: April 01, 2014, 05:28:06 PM »

Please help me moderator with my last post ;P It took the quote and my text as the same >.<

Your avatar made me cry.   Cry

Cry
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« Reply #46 on: April 01, 2014, 07:09:24 PM »

So far in my research, I find the Catholic position to be a the most compelling, mostly because they have a well-defined, final authority on who says what the Church should teach (i.e. the Magisterium and the Pope). As far as Church History goes, I've only read two Church History books, both written by Protestants, and I only thoroughly read the writings of the Apostolic Fathers: Clement, Polycarp, Ignatius, Didache, Epistle of Barnabas, Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus, and Shepherd of Hermas.

My only advice if you find the papal authority as a compelling evidence for the Catholic Church, take the dogma and apply it to history and see if Christ protected the church according to their view and dogma about the Pope. But there was a broader sense to authority, decision making in the councils and the guidance of the Holy Spirit in the church.

Fixed quote tags for you.

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Good advice
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« Reply #47 on: April 01, 2014, 07:46:37 PM »

Hi Everyone!

I'm currently an Evangelical Christian who is seeking to find which Church is the one true church, whether that be Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, or the Church of the East.

Whether you are Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, or a Church of the East Christian, please tell me: How do you know that your Church has the fullness of God's truth, and not the other three?

Thanks! Smiley

The Catholic Church is the one true Church. The Catholics say that each person has a responsibility and obligation to find the true church (which i agree with) so it's good that your attempting to find the true Church.

Orthodox is not the 'one' true church, it's 'a' true church. I will also suggest that ONLY Orthodox get this luxury of being called a 'true church' that is valid in the eyes of the Catholics.

If you decide to be Orthodox, then you are allowed to consider yourself a 'spiritual member' of the catholic church only if you meet the 2 following criterea.

1. You believe your current church is the true Church. (This was likely an exception for Orthodox only)
2. You admit the Catholic church was the church founded by Jesus Christ (Im Antiochian but I'll agree to submit this to the Catholics as at that time the Churches were one in the same. But go to the Churches in Christs homeland and you'll find Orthodox churches.. Just saying)

If you agree to the above, you become a spiritual member of the Catholic Church so you are safe in that regard. Only Orthodox have this luxury (legitimetly) because i cant imagine a Protestant saying their Methodist chuch is the one true church. Its just illogical.

The Orthodox Churches are often culturally segregated so I would go Catholic if I didnt have an ethnic community. Thats just me though. The catholics have their own radio, tv, podcasts, newspapers, etc. A huge community with much more 'happenings'.

I submit to the Catholic Church and consider myself a spiritual member. My kids will go to Catholic schools as i did. That should tell you how important i feel it is to be either a member of the Catholic church, or a spiritual member in good standing.

It should be noted that Orthodox have a higher belief in God our creator than Catholics and make the second highest household income next to Jews. We dont have New Age feminist, secular humanist agenda's in our Church either so Orthodox does something right.
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« Reply #48 on: April 01, 2014, 09:15:31 PM »

The Catholic Church is the one true Church. The Catholics say that each person has a responsibility and obligation to find the true church (which i agree with) so it's good that your attempting to find the true Church.

Orthodox is not the 'one' true church, it's 'a' true church. I will also suggest that ONLY Orthodox get this luxury of being called a 'true church' that is valid in the eyes of the Catholics.

If you decide to be Orthodox, then you are allowed to consider yourself a 'spiritual member' of the catholic church only if you meet the 2 following criterea.

1. You believe your current church is the true Church. (This was likely an exception for Orthodox only)
2. You admit the Catholic church was the church founded by Jesus Christ (Im Antiochian but I'll agree to submit this to the Catholics as at that time the Churches were one in the same. But go to the Churches in Christs homeland and you'll find Orthodox churches.. Just saying)

If you agree to the above, you become a spiritual member of the Catholic Church so you are safe in that regard. Only Orthodox have this luxury (legitimetly) because i cant imagine a Protestant saying their Methodist chuch is the one true church. Its just illogical.

The Orthodox Churches are often culturally segregated so I would go Catholic if I didnt have an ethnic community. Thats just me though. The catholics have their own radio, tv, podcasts, newspapers, etc. A huge community with much more 'happenings'.

I submit to the Catholic Church and consider myself a spiritual member. My kids will go to Catholic schools as i did. That should tell you how important i feel it is to be either a member of the Catholic church, or a spiritual member in good standing.

It should be noted that Orthodox have a higher belief in God our creator than Catholics and make the second highest household income next to Jews. We dont have New Age feminist, secular humanist agenda's in our Church either so Orthodox does something right.

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« Reply #49 on: April 01, 2014, 10:09:15 PM »

The Catholic Church is the one true Church. The Catholics say that each person has a responsibility and obligation to find the true church (which i agree with) so it's good that your attempting to find the true Church.

Orthodox is not the 'one' true church, it's 'a' true church. I will also suggest that ONLY Orthodox get this luxury of being called a 'true church' that is valid in the eyes of the Catholics.


If you decide to be Orthodox, then you are allowed to consider yourself a 'spiritual member' of the catholic church only if you meet the 2 following criterea.

1. You believe your current church is the true Church. (This was likely an exception for Orthodox only)
2. You admit the Catholic church was the church founded by Jesus Christ (Im Antiochian but I'll agree to submit this to the Catholics as at that time the Churches were one in the same. But go to the Churches in Christs homeland and you'll find Orthodox churches.. Just saying)

If you agree to the above, you become a spiritual member of the Catholic Church so you are safe in that regard. Only Orthodox have this luxury (legitimetly) because i cant imagine a Protestant saying their Methodist chuch is the one true church. Its just illogical.

The Orthodox Churches are often culturally segregated so I would go Catholic if I didnt have an ethnic community. Thats just me though. The catholics have their own radio, tv, podcasts, newspapers, etc. A huge community with much more 'happenings'.

I submit to the Catholic Church and consider myself a spiritual member. My kids will go to Catholic schools as i did. That should tell you how important i feel it is to be either a member of the Catholic church, or a spiritual member in good standing.

It should be noted that Orthodox have a higher belief in God our creator than Catholics and make the second highest household income next to Jews. We dont have New Age feminist, secular humanist agenda's in our Church either so Orthodox does something right.


Is this what passes for Greek Orthodoxy in Canada?  Certainly doesn't sound like any of the Canadian Greek Orthodox I know. 
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« Reply #50 on: April 01, 2014, 10:12:36 PM »

byhisgrace,

You, have already received a lot of good advice. I would wholeheartedly agree with the majority of what's been said and therefore won't repeat it, what I will do is share my decision making process.
church.
I started out Evangelical like you. And also like you had a desire to find the original Church. As has been suggested I studied each of the schisms and decided which side of them I agreed with. In the end for me it was fairly easy and I didn't have to change much. In the earlier schisms as a Protestant and therefore a child of Rome, come down on the side of the EO/RC, which was at that time united. For the later, Great Schism, as a Protestant I found that much of what I disagreed with Rome on the Eastern Orthodox Church also disagreed with Rome on. For me it was relatively simple.

Now, I will add since that time I come to embrace the notion of a theological unity between EO and OO and pray fervently for a complete unity. Also I have come to have much much more respect for the Roman Church than I ever had as a Protestant, but I still disagree with them on the same doctrinal points I did before.

So, that was my process, yours will have to be your own. If this in any way helped, good that was my intent. If not, oh well, let it go and you've still gotten a lot of good advice before me.
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« Reply #51 on: April 01, 2014, 10:17:04 PM »

In my search I could come to no other conclusion than to side with Eastern Orthodoxy.  It was the Roman Bishop that disrupted the unity of the Church,with the exception of the non-Chalcedonian churches, for which I find that division to be more having to do with semantics than  anything, which in my opinion seems rather silly, although I have been wrong before.

The Bishop of Rome had a lot to do with that, too, according both to them and to us.  Tongue

Mor,

Could you (or Antonious Nikolas) explain this ^, just briefly, given that the book is about $100. Or if this isn't the right place perhaps a PM?

Thanks
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« Reply #52 on: April 01, 2014, 10:42:34 PM »

Thanks for all the advice, everyone!
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« Reply #53 on: April 01, 2014, 10:52:30 PM »

The Catholic Church is the one true Church. The Catholics say that each person has a responsibility and obligation to find the true church (which i agree with) so it's good that your attempting to find the true Church.

Orthodox is not the 'one' true church, it's 'a' true church. I will also suggest that ONLY Orthodox get this luxury of being called a 'true church' that is valid in the eyes of the Catholics.


If you decide to be Orthodox, then you are allowed to consider yourself a 'spiritual member' of the catholic church only if you meet the 2 following criterea.

1. You believe your current church is the true Church. (This was likely an exception for Orthodox only)
2. You admit the Catholic church was the church founded by Jesus Christ (Im Antiochian but I'll agree to submit this to the Catholics as at that time the Churches were one in the same. But go to the Churches in Christs homeland and you'll find Orthodox churches.. Just saying)

If you agree to the above, you become a spiritual member of the Catholic Church so you are safe in that regard. Only Orthodox have this luxury (legitimetly) because i cant imagine a Protestant saying their Methodist chuch is the one true church. Its just illogical.

The Orthodox Churches are often culturally segregated so I would go Catholic if I didnt have an ethnic community. Thats just me though. The catholics have their own radio, tv, podcasts, newspapers, etc. A huge community with much more 'happenings'.

I submit to the Catholic Church and consider myself a spiritual member. My kids will go to Catholic schools as i did. That should tell you how important i feel it is to be either a member of the Catholic church, or a spiritual member in good standing.

It should be noted that Orthodox have a higher belief in God our creator than Catholics and make the second highest household income next to Jews. We dont have New Age feminist, secular humanist agenda's in our Church either so Orthodox does something right.


Is this what passes for Greek Orthodoxy in Canada?  Certainly doesn't sound like any of the Canadian Greek Orthodox I know. 

#cacklesbecackling
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« Reply #54 on: April 01, 2014, 10:53:19 PM »

In my search I could come to no other conclusion than to side with Eastern Orthodoxy.  It was the Roman Bishop that disrupted the unity of the Church,with the exception of the non-Chalcedonian churches, for which I find that division to be more having to do with semantics than  anything, which in my opinion seems rather silly, although I have been wrong before.

The Bishop of Rome had a lot to do with that, too, according both to them and to us.  Tongue

Mor,

Could you (or Antonious Nikolas) explain this ^, just briefly, given that the book is about $100. Or if this isn't the right place perhaps a PM?

Thanks
which book? The VC Samuel one? It should be much cheaper than that!
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If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
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« Reply #55 on: April 01, 2014, 11:31:40 PM »

Yeah, when I looked for it on Amazon they had it starting at $99.98. of course I didn't happen to look further so I suppose it could be cheaper elsewhere.

Not that it matters much I just bought a book on my Patron Saint and am looking at another with relevance to Orthodoxy and my profession and am not sure I can even afford that one at the moment.
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« Reply #56 on: April 01, 2014, 11:38:49 PM »

Yeah, when I looked for it on Amazon they had it starting at $99.98. of course I didn't happen to look further so I suppose it could be cheaper elsewhere.

Not that it matters much I just bought a book on my Patron Saint and am looking at another with relevance to Orthodoxy and my profession and am not sure I can even afford that one at the moment.
That is terrible! People at amazon are selling their used books at unreasonable prices while the original seems to be out of print.  HOWEVER...this website might be of assistance:

http://www.lulu.com/us/en/shop/father-vc-samuel/the-council-of-chalcedon-re-examined/paperback/product-194480.html
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If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
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« Reply #57 on: April 02, 2014, 12:32:03 AM »

Thanks Mina
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« Reply #58 on: April 02, 2014, 12:45:02 AM »

Yeah, when I looked for it on Amazon they had it starting at $99.98. of course I didn't happen to look further so I suppose it could be cheaper elsewhere.

Not that it matters much I just bought a book on my Patron Saint and am looking at another with relevance to Orthodoxy and my profession and am not sure I can even afford that one at the moment.
That is terrible! People at amazon are selling their used books at unreasonable prices while the original seems to be out of print.  HOWEVER...this website might be of assistance:

http://www.lulu.com/us/en/shop/father-vc-samuel/the-council-of-chalcedon-re-examined/paperback/product-194480.html

Xlibris seems to have it cheaper at about $22 for the softcover. I've never purchased from there, however.
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« Reply #59 on: April 02, 2014, 12:59:47 AM »

Thank you also,  Nephi.
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« Reply #60 on: April 02, 2014, 08:06:36 AM »

Mor,

Could you (or Antonious Nikolas) explain this ^, just briefly, given that the book is about $100. Or if this isn't the right place perhaps a PM?

Thanks

I think that my brother Mor was referring to the role played by Pope Leo of Rome and his legates in the Chalcedonian schism, perhaps with specific reference to the ecclesiology they articulated.  Further discussion is more appropriate for the private fora (in fact, there are several threads there dealing with this subject already).
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« Reply #61 on: April 02, 2014, 09:28:42 AM »

Cackles, print out your statement and let your priest read it.

PP
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« Reply #62 on: April 02, 2014, 10:09:11 AM »

...consider myself a spiritual member.

You can consider yourself anything you want. That doesn't mean people agree or that it's true. For example, I consider myself a dead ringer for Angelina Jolie - however that doesn't mean I'll find Brad Pitt waiting for me when I get home this evening. Wink
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« Reply #63 on: April 02, 2014, 10:37:35 AM »


The Catholic Church is the one true Church. The Catholics say that each person has a responsibility and obligation to find the true church (which i agree with) so it's good that your attempting to find the true Church.

Orthodox is not the 'one' true church, it's 'a' true church. I will also suggest that ONLY Orthodox get this luxury of being called a 'true church' that is valid in the eyes of the Catholics.

If you decide to be Orthodox, then you are allowed to consider yourself a 'spiritual member' of the catholic church only if you meet the 2 following criterea.

1. You believe your current church is the true Church. (This was likely an exception for Orthodox only)
2. You admit the Catholic church was the church founded by Jesus Christ (Im Antiochian but I'll agree to submit this to the Catholics as at that time the Churches were one in the same. But go to the Churches in Christs homeland and you'll find Orthodox churches.. Just saying)

If you agree to the above, you become a spiritual member of the Catholic Church so you are safe in that regard. Only Orthodox have this luxury (legitimetly) because i cant imagine a Protestant saying their Methodist chuch is the one true church. Its just illogical.

The Orthodox Churches are often culturally segregated so I would go Catholic if I didnt have an ethnic community. Thats just me though. The catholics have their own radio, tv, podcasts, newspapers, etc. A huge community with much more 'happenings'.

I submit to the Catholic Church and consider myself a spiritual member. My kids will go to Catholic schools as i did. That should tell you how important i feel it is to be either a member of the Catholic church, or a spiritual member in good standing.

It should be noted that Orthodox have a higher belief in God our creator than Catholics and make the second highest household income next to Jews. We dont have New Age feminist, secular humanist agenda's in our Church either so Orthodox does something right.


So...you know where the true Church is...and everyone has a responsibility and an obligation to seek out and join the true Church...but, because of ethnic ties, you're content to remain in some culturally segregated fringe group which could charitably be termed a true church while considering yourself a spiritual member of the true Church...and you feel you're safe in doing so because, unlike the vast majority of the people in this fringe group, you know the secret formula:

If you decide to be Orthodox, then you are allowed to consider yourself a 'spiritual member' of the catholic church only if you meet the 2 following criterea.

1. You believe your current church is the true Church. (This was likely an exception for Orthodox only)
2. You admit the Catholic church was the church founded by Jesus Christ

Even though truly believing point #1 contradicts your stated belief above that the Catholic Church is the true Church and that Orthodoxy is only a true church.

Meanwhile, though, others who wish to invoke this same salvific formula but happen to be - say - Anglicans are screwed.

Did someone tell you about this?  Or is it something you came up with on your own?
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« Reply #64 on: April 02, 2014, 10:42:09 AM »

...consider myself a spiritual member.

You can consider yourself anything you want. That doesn't mean people agree or that it's true. For example, I consider myself a dead ringer for Angelina Jolie - however that doesn't mean I'll find Brad Pitt waiting for me when I get home this evening. Wink


Fine...go and spoil my mental image of you.....

I was taking consolation in the fact that someone nice had Mr Pitt...Wink
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« Reply #65 on: April 02, 2014, 12:13:58 PM »

byhisgrace,

For a primer on the Eastern Orthodox perspective on the nature of the Church, if you have not already done so, please consult The Orthodox Church by Timothy Ware (Metropolitan Kallistos Ware).  I would recommend reading the second section on doctrine before the first section on history.  Once you have given this a good read, I could recommend other works concerning authority in the Church and ecclesiology.

If you are really interested in finding out about Orthodoxy, I can't stress enough how good it is to seek out a parish that has English-language services and attending a service like Vespers and then Divine Liturgy.  Or just Divine Liturgy if Vespers is not possible.

Welcome to the forum!
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« Reply #66 on: April 02, 2014, 02:51:14 PM »

The Catholic Church is the one true Church. The Catholics say that each person has a responsibility and obligation to find the true church (which i agree with) so it's good that your attempting to find the true Church.

Orthodox is not the 'one' true church, it's 'a' true church. I will also suggest that ONLY Orthodox get this luxury of being called a 'true church' that is valid in the eyes of the Catholics.


If you decide to be Orthodox, then you are allowed to consider yourself a 'spiritual member' of the catholic church only if you meet the 2 following criterea.

1. You believe your current church is the true Church. (This was likely an exception for Orthodox only)
2. You admit the Catholic church was the church founded by Jesus Christ (Im Antiochian but I'll agree to submit this to the Catholics as at that time the Churches were one in the same. But go to the Churches in Christs homeland and you'll find Orthodox churches.. Just saying)

If you agree to the above, you become a spiritual member of the Catholic Church so you are safe in that regard. Only Orthodox have this luxury (legitimetly) because i cant imagine a Protestant saying their Methodist chuch is the one true church. Its just illogical.

The Orthodox Churches are often culturally segregated so I would go Catholic if I didnt have an ethnic community. Thats just me though. The catholics have their own radio, tv, podcasts, newspapers, etc. A huge community with much more 'happenings'.

I submit to the Catholic Church and consider myself a spiritual member. My kids will go to Catholic schools as i did. That should tell you how important i feel it is to be either a member of the Catholic church, or a spiritual member in good standing.

It should be noted that Orthodox have a higher belief in God our creator than Catholics and make the second highest household income next to Jews. We dont have New Age feminist, secular humanist agenda's in our Church either so Orthodox does something right.


Is this what passes for Greek Orthodoxy in Canada?  Certainly doesn't sound like any of the Canadian Greek Orthodox I know. 

But we are the Catholic Church. The Bible (Vulgate) is ours also. We should all be the spiritual members of the Catholic Church. Now the Pope, religious orders, banking, assets, etc is another issue. I'm speaking from a laypersons point of view.

I personally agree with a 'One True Church' dogma.. or.. Theology or whatever its called.
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« Reply #67 on: April 03, 2014, 03:07:45 AM »

...consider myself a spiritual member.

You can consider yourself anything you want. That doesn't mean people agree or that it's true. For example, I consider myself a dead ringer for Angelina Jolie - however that doesn't mean I'll find Brad Pitt waiting for me when I get home this evening. Wink

Then please, show us pics so we can see how much you look like her.

I agree with you thought hat people can consider themselves what they want. The Catholic Church allows spiritual members of the Church. That's what i am and hope all of you guys can be. What a nice gesture to show unity before God. But I'm Othodox first and foremost obviously.
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« Reply #68 on: June 06, 2014, 09:46:30 AM »

I went through what you are going through. I tried Anglican for a while, but later on, after a lot of studying and reading (the books by Kalistos Ware are great) decided that though some of them are Orthodox at heart, the whole is not. Just my opinion. I eventually found a ROCOR Parish, and am very happy being a member of ROCOR. Though I prefer the Eastern Rite, both ROCOR and the Antiochian Orthodox Church (who are in full communion) (many in the US and Canada) both have a small number of Western Rite Parishes. I would not hesitate to attend one of these, if there is one available to you. There are some Anglican Churches that are virtually Orthodox, and if all else fails, you could attend one of these: I know I will catch h--- for saying this.
 God knows your heart, men don't, and like the wise fellow said above in another posting, we all tend to favor our particular way. Sometimes you just have to take the step of faith, and let God show you if you have done the right thing. The "still small voice behind", not in front. I would avoid anything that has "Episcopal" in it's name, since the Episcopal Church went apostate in the 70's (actually before that). If all else fails, Churches of the APA (Anglican Province of America) and the Anglican Orthodox Church would be worth visiting. They aren't "perfect", but very good, probably the best of the Anglican groups. I look for them to be fully Orthodox, in time.  I hope no-one calls me a heretic for this advice.
 In reality, you really need to get away from the Protestant Churches. As good as some may be, they are missing a lot of the fullness of the faith.
 Best wishes, and may God and His "still small voice behind you" gently direct you in the direction you should go. It is definitely worth taking that step, into the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #69 on: June 14, 2014, 10:29:29 PM »

The Catholic Church is the one true Church. The Catholics say that each person has a responsibility and obligation to find the true church (which i agree with) so it's good that your attempting to find the true Church.

Orthodox is not the 'one' true church, it's 'a' true church. I will also suggest that ONLY Orthodox get this luxury of being called a 'true church' that is valid in the eyes of the Catholics.

If you decide to be Orthodox, then you are allowed to consider yourself a 'spiritual member' of the catholic church only if you meet the 2 following criterea.

1. You believe your current church is the true Church. (This was likely an exception for Orthodox only)
2. You admit the Catholic church was the church founded by Jesus Christ (Im Antiochian but I'll agree to submit this to the Catholics as at that time the Churches were one in the same. But go to the Churches in Christs homeland and you'll find Orthodox churches.. Just saying)

If you agree to the above, you become a spiritual member of the Catholic Church so you are safe in that regard. Only Orthodox have this luxury (legitimetly) because i cant imagine a Protestant saying their Methodist chuch is the one true church. Its just illogical.

The Orthodox Churches are often culturally segregated so I would go Catholic if I didnt have an ethnic community. Thats just me though. The catholics have their own radio, tv, podcasts, newspapers, etc. A huge community with much more 'happenings'.

I submit to the Catholic Church and consider myself a spiritual member. My kids will go to Catholic schools as i did. That should tell you how important i feel it is to be either a member of the Catholic church, or a spiritual member in good standing.

It should be noted that Orthodox have a higher belief in God our creator than Catholics and make the second highest household income next to Jews. We dont have New Age feminist, secular humanist agenda's in our Church either so Orthodox does something right.

Cackles,

So, let me get this straight...

You believe that the Catholic Church is the true Church founded by Christ, but you would rather remain Antiochian Orthodox and just be a "spiritual member of the Catholic Church"?

Am I correct?

If so, then you can't remain Antiochian Orthodox. There is no such thing of a non-Catholic being a "spiritual member of the Catholic Church". You are obligated then to become a formal member of the Catholic Church.

Here is what Article 846 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church has to say about that:

Quote
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 10:35:34 PM by griego catolico » Logged
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« Reply #70 on: June 14, 2014, 11:00:12 PM »

If so, then you can't remain Antiochian Orthodox. There is no such thing of a non-Catholic being a "spiritual member of the Catholic Church". You are obligated then to become a formal member of the Catholic Church.

What about Brother Roger of Taize? He seems to have considered himself a spiritual member of the Catholic Church despite being Protestant and having never formally switched, and he was communed personally by Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict.
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« Reply #71 on: June 15, 2014, 08:47:15 AM »

Someone above mentioned the RC's liberal social agenda. I am personally aware of, and have spoken with a lesbian couple who were "so happy they were Catholic" because they were allowed by their Priest to participate fully in all that their Church offered, including Communion. Also another time, at a doctors office, the nurse was wearing a Cross, so I asked her where she attended Church, and she said she was "Catholic", and I asked her if that was RC, and she affirmed this. I asked the name of her Church, and she told me, and again, was so happy that their Priest was so liberal and let same sex couples have full privileges in the Church. She mentioned another RC Church in a neighboring community that also had a liberal Priest, and also allowed same sex couples to communicate. Of course, some will say "why are you singling out this particular sin". The people I spoke with mentioned this particular sin, so that is why I mentioned it here. If some would like to expand this to other sins that the RC allow to go on in their Church, then feel free to add to the list. I personally, am not aware of an Orthodox Church that allows this.   

















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« Reply #72 on: June 15, 2014, 11:56:59 AM »

I went through what you are going through. I tried Anglican for a while, but later on, after a lot of studying and reading (the books by Kalistos Ware are great) decided that though some of them are Orthodox at heart, the whole is not. Just my opinion. I eventually found a ROCOR Parish, and am very happy being a member of ROCOR. Though I prefer the Eastern Rite, both ROCOR and the Antiochian Orthodox Church (who are in full communion) (many in the US and Canada) both have a small number of Western Rite Parishes. I would not hesitate to attend one of these, if there is one available to you. There are some Anglican Churches that are virtually Orthodox, and if all else fails, you could attend one of these: I know I will catch h--- for saying this.
 God knows your heart, men don't, and like the wise fellow said above in another posting, we all tend to favor our particular way. Sometimes you just have to take the step of faith, and let God show you if you have done the right thing. The "still small voice behind", not in front. I would avoid anything that has "Episcopal" in it's name, since the Episcopal Church went apostate in the 70's (actually before that). If all else fails, Churches of the APA (Anglican Province of America) and the Anglican Orthodox Church would be worth visiting. They aren't "perfect", but very good, probably the best of the Anglican groups. I look for them to be fully Orthodox, in time.  I hope no-one calls me a heretic for this advice.
 In reality, you really need to get away from the Protestant Churches. As good as some may be, they are missing a lot of the fullness of the faith.
 Best wishes, and may God and His "still small voice behind you" gently direct you in the direction you should go. It is definitely worth taking that step, into the Orthodox Church.

Good, solid advice.
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« Reply #73 on: June 15, 2014, 06:18:29 PM »

Can anyone answer for me whether my eternal salvation is at stake, when it comes to which Church I decide to join?

Greetings to you and welcome to the forum.  In reply to your inquiry, I'd say yes your eternal salvation is at stake regarding your choice of a Church since this is where you will be spiritually nurtured, but I'd have to qualify it also.  I have been raised Greek Orthodox (more Greek than Orthodox as is usually the case growing up in commonly ethnocentric Greek-American churches) and early on in my youth I experienced little spiritual growth due primarily to my own neglect but also in good part to a lack of good instruction and spirituality in my local parishes.  Regardless, I have found if we sincerely seek out Orthodoxy we will begin to find the fullest expression of the christian faith.  Does this imply there is no other church where we may live the christian life and grow in grace - I personally think it does not. However, the less truth the greater the risk of being led astray and losing even that which we have, eventually falling away. 

I'd also like to offer something else which may further qualify what I've previously stated.  The sum of Christ's commandments is love (faith must work by love and cannot stand alone if it is true faith) so the sum of our christian faith is love for God and humanity.  I have had some helpful experiences of meeting good people of mainline denominations who lived out their christian faith through an intimate love for God, christian virtues of faith, sincerity, purity and a genuine compassion for humanity; this evidently impressed upon me that there are indeed good christians in the world and many of them are actually not in Orthodox parishes.  My point here is that it's preferable to have christian love than dead orthodoxy; but ideally the fullest christian life is experienced in a faithful Orthodox Church with good instruction, sufficient fellowship and the blessings of true sacramental worship.

I'd also like to say a few things on the 'catholic church' when I have a little more time. May God guide you in your decisions.

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« Reply #74 on: June 15, 2014, 06:27:36 PM »

I can only answer definitively about the Nestorian (Assyrian) Church.

Since it's essentially proven that St. Mary was Theotokos before the Christological controversy in 431, I think it's a safe bet that they are wrong. I bet someone's going to accuse me of being unfair to them because they are a minority group...

As for Rome, lots of things don't add up for me, but I don't have the time to go over them all.
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« Reply #75 on: June 19, 2014, 12:05:15 AM »

The Catholic Church is the one true Church. The Catholics say that each person has a responsibility and obligation to find the true church (which i agree with) so it's good that your attempting to find the true Church.

Orthodox is not the 'one' true church, it's 'a' true church. I will also suggest that ONLY Orthodox get this luxury of being called a 'true church' that is valid in the eyes of the Catholics.

If you decide to be Orthodox, then you are allowed to consider yourself a 'spiritual member' of the catholic church only if you meet the 2 following criterea.

1. You believe your current church is the true Church. (This was likely an exception for Orthodox only)
2. You admit the Catholic church was the church founded by Jesus Christ (Im Antiochian but I'll agree to submit this to the Catholics as at that time the Churches were one in the same. But go to the Churches in Christs homeland and you'll find Orthodox churches.. Just saying)

If you agree to the above, you become a spiritual member of the Catholic Church so you are safe in that regard. Only Orthodox have this luxury (legitimetly) because i cant imagine a Protestant saying their Methodist chuch is the one true church. Its just illogical.

The Orthodox Churches are often culturally segregated so I would go Catholic if I didnt have an ethnic community. Thats just me though. The catholics have their own radio, tv, podcasts, newspapers, etc. A huge community with much more 'happenings'.

I submit to the Catholic Church and consider myself a spiritual member. My kids will go to Catholic schools as i did. That should tell you how important i feel it is to be either a member of the Catholic church, or a spiritual member in good standing.

It should be noted that Orthodox have a higher belief in God our creator than Catholics and make the second highest household income next to Jews. We dont have New Age feminist, secular humanist agenda's in our Church either so Orthodox does something right.

Cackles,

So, let me get this straight...

You believe that the Catholic Church is the true Church founded by Christ, but you would rather remain Antiochian Orthodox and just be a "spiritual member of the Catholic Church"?

Am I correct?

If so, then you can't remain Antiochian Orthodox. There is no such thing of a non-Catholic being a "spiritual member of the Catholic Church". You are obligated then to become a formal member of the Catholic Church.

Here is what Article 846 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church has to say about that:

Quote
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.


You made an error and misread what i wrote.

You have to believe your CURRENT church is the True Chruch. So if you believe Orthodox is the True church (or I guess you consider our church same as the Catholic church). That was likely written in as an exception only for the Orthodox church.

However, you MUST admit that the Catholic church is founded by Jesus Christ. I am willing to admit this as we were once the same for almost a thousand years. They are bigger and have lasted the test of time, meaning, God allowed them to continue. So sure Im willing to conced to them Jesus founded their Church.

Now however, if i was anything outside Catholic or Orthodox, I personally would not be a member of those churches. You have to admit your church is the True church. If you really believe your evangelical church is the True church, then by all means stick with it. This means you are ignorant through no fault of your own. If you will not admit Jesus founded the church, then that could mean your willingly ingnorant so tead cautiously.
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The above post is intended for discussion purposes and is comprised of my personal opinion.
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