OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 03, 2014, 02:14:57 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Battle over the Holy Fire  (Read 2427 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Ghazar
Armenian Orthodox Christian
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 214


"Ghazaros, toors yegoor:" "Lazarus, come forth."


WWW
« on: April 02, 2005, 05:10:47 AM »

Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 7:40 PM
Subject: COMMUNIQUE FROM ARMENIAN PATRIARCHATE OF JERUSALEM


ARMENIAN PATRIARCHATE OF JERUSALEM
P.O.Box 14235, Jerusalem, Israel 91141
Office of Ecumenical and Foreign Relations
Contact person: Bishop Aris Shirvanian
Tel: 972-2-628-2331
Fax: 972-2-626-4861
E-mail: arminf@netvision.net.il
Website: www.armenian-patriarchate.org


COMMUNIQU+ë

The Armenian Patriarchate of Jerusalem has heard with great concern about
the false allegations published by the media in Greece regarding the Holy
Fire ceremony, which takes place each year on the Saturday before Easter
in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, according to which: "the Armenians are
demanding that they light the Holy Fire, and it must be noted that the
issue has reached all the way to the Israeli Knesset.  As it is known, this
request of the Armenians is persistent, and many times, during the
entrance and exit of the Greek patriarch, there have occurred serious incidents."

The position of the Armenian Patriarchate has always been to uphold the
peaceful and centuries-old traditional ceremony of the Holy Fire, in
compliance with the Agreement on the Status Quo in the Holy Places,
according to which: "The Bishop of the Armenian Church, who is to
accompany the [Greek] Patriarch into the Sepulchre, here joins His Beatitude.  The
Patriarch now disrobes, and his mitre and vestments are carried by the
attendant clergy to the Altar in the Orthodox Chapel.  The door [of the
Edicule] is then opened and the Patriarch enters the Tomb, accompanied by
the Armenian Bishop."

Unfortunately, since his accession to the throne in 2001, the Greek
Orthodox Patriarch Ireneios I has maintained that the Greeks hold the exclusive
right to light the Holy Fire from the Holy Tomb, subsequently passing it to the
Armenians.  Contrary to this assertion, firmans, hujjats, and other
historical and legal documents all state that the Armenian Bishop and the
Greek Patriarch should together light the Holy Fire from the Tomb of our
Lord.

The Armenian Patriarchate of Jerusalem has and will continue to reject the
attempts of the Greek Orthodox Patriarch in Jerusalem to deny the right of
equal participation by the Armenian Patriarch in the lighting of the Holy
Fire.

#####

Jerusalem, 2 March 2005                 DIVAN OF THE ARMENIAN PATRIARCHATE

Logged

Trusting in Christ's Inextinguishable Light,
Rev. Sub-Deacon Ghazaros Der-Ghazarian,
Holy Apostolic Orthodox Church of Armenia, Eastern Diocese USA
The Armenian Orthodox Evangelization Mission: www.looys.net
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2005, 03:34:16 PM »

Unfortunately, since his accession to the throne in 2001, the Greek
Orthodox Patriarch Ireneios I has maintained that the Greeks hold the exclusive
right to light the Holy Fire from the Holy Tomb, subsequently passing it to the
Armenians.

Right. Because the Greeks no where the matches are hidden.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2005, 03:39:58 PM by TomS » Logged
troy
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 109


« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2005, 03:36:47 PM »

I hope you're joking TomS. Israeli and Muslim authorities alike have tried to muster some evidence against the miracle of the Holy Fire only to no avail.
Logged
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2005, 04:18:25 PM »

I hope you're joking TomS. Israeli and Muslim authorities alike have tried to muster some evidence against the miracle of the Holy Fire only to no avail.

If that is supposed to br funny, it isn't.

I have two separate videos of this miracle which were made prior to 1999.  On both it clearly shows the Armenian waiting outside the inner chamber while the Orthodox Patriarch enters.  It also shows the prior ceremony where the Israeli and Moslem representatives enter the tomb and search it for matches.  After they come out the door is closed AND SEALED WITH WAX THAT IS STAMPED TO MAKE SURE IT IS NOT BROKEN UNTIL THE JP ENTERS -

==========

http://www.holylight.gr/agiofos/holyli.html

DESCRIPTION OF THE MIRACLE



1. PREPARATION OF THE HOLY SEPULCHRE: In the morning of the Holy Saturday, before the ceremony of the Holy Light takes place a very thorough check of the tomb and after that they seal it with a mixture of honey and wax that was prepared in the morning. This check takes place so that everyone is ascertain that there is nothing in the Holy Sepulchre that can cause a fire. After the tomb is sealed the authorities affix the wax with their seals (photo).


2. THE CEREMONY OF THE HOLY LIGHT:The ceremony of the Holy Light takes place at 12:00 and constitutes of three stages: a. The Litany, b. The entry of the Patriarch in the Holy Sepulchre and c. The prayers of the Patriarch in order for the Holy Light to come out.

Following the tradition, at noon of the Holy Saturday the Greek Orthodox Patriarch with his escort - archpriests, priests and deacons and the Armenian Patriarch - enter the Holy Sepulchre, while the bells strike mournfully. Before the entry of the Patriarch the keeper of the Sacristy of the Holy Temple carries the unsleeping oil lamp, (it is put out that day in order to turn on with the Holy Light). From the interior entry of the Temple of Apostle Jacob the Patriarch enters in the sanctuary and seats on the Patriarchal throne. Then the representatives of the Armenians, the Arabs, the Copts and others pass and kiss the hand of the Patriarch so that they will have the right to receive the Holy Light. According to the privileges if they don’t kiss the hand of the Orthodox Patriarch they do not have the right to receive the Holy Light from his hands. Immediately afterwards begins the Holy Litany that goes three times around the Holy Sepulchre and then it stops in front of the Holy Sepulchre where the officials stand.

After the litany the Holy Sepulchre is unsealed and the Patriarch takes off his pontifical vestments and remains only with his white priest’s tunic. Then the governor of Jerusalem and the police director examine the Patriarch in front of everybody so that everybody is assured that he doesn’t carry anything that can transmit light (fire).

;After this his Beatitude the Patriarch of Jerusalem takes the (extinct) torches and enters the Holy Ciborium with the Armenian draguman. All the lamps are off and nothing is on in the Holy Temple and the Holy Sepulchre.

IN GENERAL FOR THE HOLY LIGHT

Only the Greek Orthodox Patriarch has the privilege the honour and the power to make this ceremony. Attempts from the other doctrines to perform this miracle were made but it was impossible. For example in 1549 AD according to historical recordings, the Armenians bribed Sultan Mourat in order to give them permission to go in the church of the Holy Sepulchre and perform the ceremony. Indeed the sultan gave the authorisation and the Armenians entered the Temple and locked out the orthodox. The Orthodox Patriarch full with despair when he saw the Armenians in the church kneeled and prayed out of the church’s entry near one of the columns. Suddenly the column was torn (photo) and the light came out that way, lighting the patriarch’s torches. The Agarino's Emir was watching from the minaret across the street. When he saw these events he cried out: "The faith of the Christians is great! One is the real God, the God of Christians! I believe in Christ the resurrected from the dead. I kneel to him as my God". After his consent he jumped from the minaret but he wasn’t hurt. The Muslims captured him and decapitated him. His relic is kept until today in the Monastery of the Great Virgin in Jerusalem.

==================

Orthodoc   



Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
troy
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 109


« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2005, 09:13:24 PM »

I wasn't trying to be funny Orthodoc, I'm a firm believer in the Holy Fire and have seen the videos and pictures too. I was simply disturbed by either Tom's lack of faith or his odd sense of humor.
Logged
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2005, 12:57:01 PM »

Was it BIC lighter in 18th Century Jerusalem? I think NOT! Is OUTRAGE!

But then our lost TomS has hit on an interesting question to me, why does this Armenian Church not follow the Paschalon of the rest of the Armenian Apostolic Church? After all, if it is such a staged event, as Tom scandalously implies, then they can just celebrate the Resurrection with the rest of their church and claim their "matches" are holier  Shocked
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2005, 03:07:38 PM »

[I wasn't trying to be funny Orthodoc, I'm a firm believer in the Holy Fire and have seen the videos and pictures too. I was simply disturbed by either Tom's lack of faith or his odd sense of humor.]

That makes two of us!

Orthodoc
Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2005, 05:22:49 PM »

Muslims, the Key to the Holy Sepulchre

Muslim keeps the keys at the holiest site in Christendom
By MATTHEW KALMAN, Scripps Howard News Service, March 23, 2005

JERUSALEM - Every day at 4 a.m., Wajeeh Nuseibeh walks through the walled Old City of Jerusalem to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, the holiest shrine in Christendom. Most Christians believe it is the site of the crucifixion, tomb and resurrection of Jesus.

Nuseibeh takes an ancient 12-inch iron key, climbs a small ladder and opens the huge wooden doors.

Every evening at nightfall, after three raps of an iron door knocker spaced out over half an hour, Nuseibeh closes up for the night and places the key in safekeeping.

He inherited the job from his father and grandfather, part of a chain stretching back more than 1,300 years.

But surprisingly for the doorkeeper of the site of the Crucifixion, Nuseibeh, 55, like his ancestors, is a Muslim.

"It goes from father to son, from one generation to the next," said Nuseibeh, a small, dapper man in a suit and tie, with a dark mustache. "I was 15 when I first opened the church. I thought it was fun. As I grew up I realized it is a big responsibility."

The Holy Sepulchre is a vast warren of chapels, tunnels and caves with pieces of church architecture dating back to the fourth century and spanning a broad range of traditions from the Westernized cathedral of the Catholics to the Eastern brass and icons of the Orthodox churches.

It houses the final stations on the Via Dolorosa - the journey of Jesus to his crucifixion - and attracts hundreds of thousands of pilgrims and sightseers every year.

The church is jealously managed by five competing and often warring Christian denominations. Sometimes the tensions over the right to clean or pray in an area of the church spills over into violence.

Nuseibeh's family has helped keep the peace between them since Caliph Omar Ibn Kattab first conquered Jerusalem for the Muslims in 638. The only gap was 88 years of crusader rule in the 12th century. According to the family history, when Salah A-Din recaptured Jerusalem in 1191, he promised Richard the Lion Heart he would invite the Nuseibeh family members to resume their role as custodians. Since that time, Judeh family members, also Muslims, have been given the key for safekeeping overnight. The two families have shared the position ever since.

Once a year, the three biggest denominations - Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Armenian - publicly renew their request to Nuseibeh to be the "custodian and door-keeper" as written on his business card and multimedia Web site.

About 100 years ago, the key was stolen. Now they keep a spare inside the church. Nuseibeh receives $15 every month for his labor, but the ancient honor is worth more to him than the token payment. When tensions boil over between the churches, Nuseibeh is the one who calms the waters.

"Like all brothers, they sometimes have problems. We help them settle their disputes. We are the neutral people in the church. We are the United Nations. We help preserve peace in this holy place," he said.

Nuseibeh said he still becomes anxious before big ceremonies, or when important visitors arrive.

"I realize there are thousands of people waiting to go into the church and they are waiting for me to open it, and I start to imagine what will happen if the lock will be broken or the key is damaged and I can't open the door," he said.

But it has never happened in the 20 years since he took over from his father. He hopes that one day his son Obadah, now 21, will step into his footsteps, but it's not certain.

"He is at college, studying to be a sports trainer," said Nuseibeh. "Maybe he will not follow me, and then my brother or my cousin will take over."

Easter celebrations at the Holy Sepulchre will place the diminutive Muslim center-stage as thousands flock to the church for services, processions and the ancient ceremony of the Holy Fire, in which Nuseibeh plays a central role.

The ceremony is held each year on Easter Saturday and symbolizes the resurrection of Christ. Thousands of worshippers pack into the church around the marble-clad tomb where Jesus' body was laid. The oil lamps inside the empty tomb are extinguished and a huge stone rolled across the entrance, which is then sealed shut by Greek Orthodox priests.

"If there are no oil lamps lit, the tomb will be sealed with wax. I am the witness. I put my stamp, the name of the family, in the wax on the tomb," Nuseibeh said.

What happens next looks like a miracle. The Orthodox patriarch begins to pray, and a bluish Holy Fire begins to emanate from within the tomb, lighting the lamps and sometimes flying around the church, over the heads of the assembled worshippers, lighting the candles of believers.

Nuseibeh, who has been the official witness at this ceremony for more than 20 years, said he was deeply touched by the Christian rituals and felt a close affinity with the church, but he does not pray there.

"I know every stone. It is like my home," he said. "But I go to pray at the Omar Mosque next door."


-------------------------------------------

Wow! Isn't it interesting that this family has witnessed this "miracle" for hundreds of years -- yet they are still Muslim?

Wonder why???
« Last Edit: April 03, 2005, 05:23:39 PM by TomS » Logged
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2005, 05:26:25 PM »

Perhaps they are better Muslims than some others are Orthodox?
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2005, 05:29:29 PM »

Perhaps they are better Muslims than some others are Orthodox?

Or, maybe they have been brainwashed by their "church" into accepting non-truths and fantasy.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2005, 05:29:47 PM by TomS » Logged
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2005, 05:38:29 PM »



Or, maybe they have been brainwashed by their "church" into accepting non-truths and fantasy.

Could be..maybe you should go there and find out?
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Ghazar
Armenian Orthodox Christian
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 214


"Ghazaros, toors yegoor:" "Lazarus, come forth."


WWW
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2005, 06:02:45 PM »

Thank God for the Muslims.  Otherwise the Armenians would probably not even be let in the parking lot.
Logged

Trusting in Christ's Inextinguishable Light,
Rev. Sub-Deacon Ghazaros Der-Ghazarian,
Holy Apostolic Orthodox Church of Armenia, Eastern Diocese USA
The Armenian Orthodox Evangelization Mission: www.looys.net
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2005, 06:03:48 PM »

Thank God for the Muslims. Otherwise the Armenians would probably not even be let in the parking lot.

You are absolutely correct. The Christians can't be trusted to conduct themselves in a Christ-like manner.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2005, 06:04:59 PM by TomS » Logged
Ghazar
Armenian Orthodox Christian
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 214


"Ghazaros, toors yegoor:" "Lazarus, come forth."


WWW
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2005, 09:11:20 PM »

I hate to admit it, but you're right.  And I'm sure if the roles were reversed, we Armenians would be locking the Greeks out too.

Gee, I wonder why the world seeks alternatives to Christianity? (Rhetorical question... no answer needed).
Logged

Trusting in Christ's Inextinguishable Light,
Rev. Sub-Deacon Ghazaros Der-Ghazarian,
Holy Apostolic Orthodox Church of Armenia, Eastern Diocese USA
The Armenian Orthodox Evangelization Mission: www.looys.net
Tags: Jerusalem Pascha Armenian Church Holy Fire 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.073 seconds with 40 queries.