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Author Topic: Western Rite - Pictures & Videos  (Read 1941 times) Average Rating: 0
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Nephi
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« on: March 27, 2014, 02:37:26 AM »

I realize how hard it can be to find decent pictures and videos of the Western Rite online, so I thought we could use a thread for it. So share pictures or videos of anything WR-related, e.g. a church's architecture or interior layout, liturgies/services, processions, etc. I'll start it off:

Holy Incarnation Orthodox Church (Antiochian) - Lincoln Park, MI
Video: Easter Mass 2011



Shrine of Our Lady of Regla (Ermita de Regla, Antiochian) - Miami, FL
Video: Tour of the inside of the Church (not perfect quality)




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« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2014, 01:52:59 PM »

The latter seems very, very Latin. What's the background of the parish? Was it born as a WRO parish or did it convert from some other denomination?
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« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2014, 03:19:46 PM »

In the second photo, what's with the ripidia with bells?  How OO of them!  Smiley
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« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2014, 03:57:59 PM »

It's kind of odd to see clergy vested as Eastern Rite clergy in a Western Rite service! In one of the pictures by Nephi, a priest wears an epitrachelion, and a deacon and subdeacon are vested in the Eastern manner.
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« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2014, 04:00:10 PM »


It just looks all wrong.
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« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2014, 04:04:55 PM »


It just looks all wrong.


If you're referring to the statue, I agree. Otherwise I fail to see anything wrong with the pictures. It's a bit weird to see EOs there but I guess they were visitors from a neighbouring Eastern rite parish. Orthodox unity and all that so I guess I can't complain.
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« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2014, 04:07:42 PM »


It just looks all wrong.


If you're referring to the statue, I agree. Otherwise I fail to see anything wrong with the pictures. It's a bit weird to see EOs there but I guess they were visitors from a neighbouring Eastern rite parish. Orthodox unity and all that so I guess I can't complain.

I don't see anything wrong with the statue.  But I do wonder about the use of ripidia at Mass...the blue chasuble is ugly, too.   
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« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2014, 04:10:37 PM »

I like the blue chasuble. It's beautiful.

Statues are not traditionally to be used liturgically. Nothing wrong with them otherwise but IMO they shouldn't have any liturgical function.
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« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2014, 04:17:16 PM »

In the second photo, what's with the ripidia with bells?  How OO of them!  Smiley

What is going on with the band? Is that part of the procession?
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« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2014, 04:19:24 PM »

I like the blue chasuble. It's beautiful.

Ugh.  I just lost a little respect for you.   Tongue

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Statues are not traditionally to be used liturgically. Nothing wrong with them otherwise but IMO they shouldn't have any liturgical function.

Let me know when your Church stops carrying icons in procession on the Sunday of Orthodoxy and other times. 
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« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2014, 04:28:44 PM »

Let me know when your Church stops carrying icons in procession on the Sunday of Orthodoxy and other times. 

Icons are not statues. Again, nothing wrong with either but the first have various liturgical uses whereas the latter has traditionally no liturgical function.
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« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2014, 04:36:46 PM »

Let me know when your Church stops carrying icons in procession on the Sunday of Orthodoxy and other times. 

Icons are not statues. Again, nothing wrong with either but the first have various liturgical uses whereas the latter has traditionally no liturgical function.

Where did you see a statue used in a liturgical function?
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« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2014, 04:43:59 PM »

Let me know when your Church stops carrying icons in procession on the Sunday of Orthodoxy and other times. 

Icons are not statues. Again, nothing wrong with either but the first have various liturgical uses whereas the latter has traditionally no liturgical function.

Where did you see a statue used in a liturgical function?

The statue is on the altar. Seems pretty liturgical to me. The procession might qualify as liturgical too but as it might be more like para-liturgical I see no problem with that. Hispanics have right to their culture too.
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« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2014, 05:01:06 PM »

The "first communion" business on the second site is just wrong, wrong, wrong.
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« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2014, 05:34:18 PM »

Where did you see a statue used in a liturgical function?

The statue is on the altar. Seems pretty liturgical to me.

If an icon can be on an altar, behind an altar, before an altar, around an altar, etc., I don't see why a statue could not function in this way in a WRO context. 
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« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2014, 05:39:09 PM »

The "first communion" business on the second site is just wrong, wrong, wrong.

The caption on the photo says "First Confession and Communion", which, to me, doesn't necessarily imply "First Communion".  If the WRO have the same practice as the rest of the Orthodox re: communing infants and children, perhaps this is just a way of bringing in as much of a type of popular, cultural rite of passage as possible?
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« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2014, 06:08:27 PM »

The "first communion" business on the second site is just wrong, wrong, wrong.

The caption on the photo says "First Confession and Communion", which, to me, doesn't necessarily imply "First Communion".  If the WRO have the same practice as the rest of the Orthodox re: communing infants and children, perhaps this is just a way of bringing in as much of a type of popular, cultural rite of passage as possible?

The "cultural rite of passage" depicted is one which is quite foreign to Orthodoxy. That whole site gives the impression of a fully RC setup, with surface tweaks such as a few icons to give an Orthodox gloss.
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« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2014, 06:12:26 PM »

The "cultural rite of passage" depicted is one which is quite foreign to Orthodoxy.

Girls and boys in fancy white dresses and suits is foreign to Orthodoxy? 

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That whole site gives the impression of a fully RC setup, with surface tweaks such as a few icons to give an Orthodox gloss.

"Jesus Christ died for Greek people's sins."
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« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2014, 06:15:10 PM »


It just looks all wrong.


If you're referring to the statue, I agree. Otherwise I fail to see anything wrong with the pictures. It's a bit weird to see EOs there but I guess they were visitors from a neighbouring Eastern rite parish. Orthodox unity and all that so I guess I can't complain.

FWIW, if you look at the Youtube channel of the video I posted, they're vested as Eastern when Bishop Antoun is present.

From a 2007 issue of "The Word":

Quote
After a quarter of a century of ministry in the heart of Miami’s Little Havana district, the Ermita de Regla or Shrine of Regla was consecrated on Sunday, 18th of February, 2007.

The Shrine of Our Lady of Regla began in 1982 as a Hispanic Mission of the Cathedral of Saint George in Coral Gables. Led by its founder, the Very Rev. Canon Michael F. Lobo, the community moved to its present location in 1984. The Shrine ministers in both Spanish language and the cultural forms of its largely Hispanic congregation, and follows the Antiochian Western Rite.

The Shrine of Regla is dedicated to the wonder-working image of Our Lady of Regla, one of the historic “Black Virgins” of Western Christianity. The church’s patron image, which is also the Patroness of Little Havana, originated in fourth century North Africa, in the Oratory of Saint Augustine. From there it migrated to southern Spain, and eventually to Cuba and south Florida. The Shrine was a beloved pilgrimage site of the late Cuban cultural icon Celia Cruz.

Here's an image with Metropolitan Philip:

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« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2014, 06:19:29 PM »

The "cultural rite of passage" depicted is one which is quite foreign to Orthodoxy.

Girls and boys in fancy white dresses and suits is foreign to Orthodoxy? 


For first confession and communion at the ages depicted in the photo it is. What is depicted there is neither the post-baptismal garment, nor flowergirls at weddings.


"Jesus Christ died for Greek people's sins."

An uncharacteristic and disappointing comment from you. You should know by now my decades-long experience in most flavors of Orthodoxy, with Russian and Greek being predominant. Insularity is anathema to me, but I don't take kindly to being misrepresented.
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« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2014, 06:19:59 PM »

From a 2007 issue of "The Word":

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The Shrine of Regla is dedicated to the wonder-working image of Our Lady of Regla, one of the historic “Black Virgins” of Western Christianity. The church’s patron image, which is also the Patroness of Little Havana, originated in fourth century North Africa, in the Oratory of Saint Augustine. From there it migrated to southern Spain, and eventually to Cuba and south Florida. The Shrine was a beloved pilgrimage site of the late Cuban cultural icon Celia Cruz.


Interesting: a statue that goes back to St Augustine's private chapel, which means it was around at roughly the same time as St John Chrysostom, St Cyril, etc.  
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« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2014, 06:26:37 PM »

From a 2007 issue of "The Word":

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The Shrine of Regla is dedicated to the wonder-working image of Our Lady of Regla, one of the historic “Black Virgins” of Western Christianity. The church’s patron image, which is also the Patroness of Little Havana, originated in fourth century North Africa, in the Oratory of Saint Augustine. From there it migrated to southern Spain, and eventually to Cuba and south Florida. The Shrine was a beloved pilgrimage site of the late Cuban cultural icon Celia Cruz.


Interesting: a statue that goes back to St Augustine's private chapel, which means it was around at roughly the same time as St John Chrysostom, St Cyril, etc.  

I wasn't sure if they were talking about the statue or the icon (shown in the first couple of pictures I posted), but the statue does make more sense. Interesting.

I think it's a nice statue and it fits beautifully into their altar arrangement. I also like that they seem to be an authentic expression of Central American/Hispanic identity (i.e. not thoroughly Byzantinized) since we always focus on European expressions of Latin Christendom, but I kind of regret including them in this thread.
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« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2014, 07:00:52 PM »

The "cultural rite of passage" depicted is one which is quite foreign to Orthodoxy.

Girls and boys in fancy white dresses and suits is foreign to Orthodoxy? 


For first confession and communion at the ages depicted in the photo it is. What is depicted there is neither the post-baptismal garment, nor flowergirls at weddings.

We have yet to establish that this was in fact "First Communion".  All we know is that it was "First Confession", that somehow "Communion" was linked to it, and they are wearing clothing which is worn by other Hispanics of Roman Catholic faith as part of their own "First Communion" celebrations.  I don't see a problem with that anymore than I'd see a problem with flowergirls in an Orthodox wedding ceremony wearing what flowergirls wear in non-Orthodox wedding ceremonies. 

If they are not communing baptised and chrismated members until they reach "the age of reason", however, or if some other non-Orthodox practice is going on, that's another matter entirely.  I just don't think this is worth fussing over, unless we're going to be fair and fuss over our own "cultural compromises" with the same consistency.   

Quote

"Jesus Christ died for Greek people's sins."

An uncharacteristic and disappointing comment from you. You should know by now my decades-long experience in most flavors of Orthodoxy, with Russian and Greek being predominant. Insularity is anathema to me, but I don't take kindly to being misrepresented.

To your "That whole site gives the impression of a fully RC setup, with surface tweaks such as a few icons to give an Orthodox gloss", I had originally intended to respond with something along the lines of "Guess we have to become Greeks and Russians if we want to have a hope of going to heaven" followed by  Wink, but deleted it in favour of the quote from Mr Panos.  Since I've quoted him before, I thought you'd get the reference and realise that I was making a particular point in a humourous way.  I'm sorry it got lost somewhere and you felt I was attacking you, that wasn't my intention at all.

I cannot apologise, however, for the point itself, that "Orthodox" does not equal "Byzantine".  It is insulting to criticise a WRO church for having a "fully RC setup, with surface tweaks": it is insulting to a community (with which you are in communion) and to the liturgical rite it uses with the blessing of Eastern Orthodox bishops (who use the rite you use).  If a Byzantine rite church ought to look like a Byzantine rite church, why shouldn't a Western rite church look Western?  What else is it supposed to look like? 

Moreover, to comment on the use of "icons" as giving "an Orthodox gloss" to the worship space is also insulting to icons--as if they exist exclusively as ecclesiastical cosmetics or cultural ornament--and is surprising coming from someone like yourself, with your vast knowledge about and reverence for icons. 

I don't believe it is inappropriate to criticise, as I've done it myself in this thread (mostly in terms of hodgepodge ritual and odd vestments).  But I did find some of the criticisms in this thread, including some of yours, to be strange.             
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« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2014, 07:15:02 PM »

(i.e. not thoroughly Byzantinized)

Well, aside from their odd use of vestments when the Bishop is visiting and what-not.
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« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2014, 08:59:38 PM »

I like the blue chasuble. It's beautiful.

Ugh.  I just lost a little respect for you.   Tongue

Quote
Statues are not traditionally to be used liturgically. Nothing wrong with them otherwise but IMO they shouldn't have any liturgical function.

Let me know when your Church stops carrying icons in procession on the Sunday of Orthodoxy and other times. 
His chasuble here is much nicer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Bwqy5ycQcs


I wonder why his zucchetto isn't black.
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« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2014, 09:25:51 PM »

His chasuble here is much nicer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Bwqy5ycQcs


I wonder why his zucchetto isn't black.


I'll forgive him, those vestments are much nicer.  Smiley
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« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2014, 09:32:17 PM »

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If they are not communing baptised and chrismated members until they reach "the age of reason", however, or if some other non-Orthodox practice is going on, that's another matter entirely.  I just don't think this is worth fussing over, unless we're going to be fair and fuss over our own "cultural compromises" with the same consistency.    

The fact that communion is mentioned at all in the caption to the photograph should be plenty cause for concern. Moreover, the age at which confession is considered as appropriate for children is not a "cause for celebration", but a quiet, circumspect and private matter. Turning it into an ersatz version of western confirmation does nobody any favors.

Quote
If a Byzantine rite church ought to look like a Byzantine rite church, why shouldn't a Western rite church look Western?  What else is it supposed to look like?  

Please read my posts carefully. There is far more to my objection than the mere "esthetics" of the church in question. There are also other elements in the photographs which I found objectionable, but on which I did not initially comment, such as the presence of vases of flowers on the altar. Pretty, but they have no place there, just as microphones and other non-liturgical items have no place on the Holy Table, items which, unfortunately, are all too prevalent these days in many a "byzantine" Orthodox church (to use your terminology).

I hold to no double standard.

I'll also mention that I have attended, and, in some cases, been closely involved, with parishes whose services are conducted in buildings or spaces which were not purpose-built Orthodox churches. Yet, whether in a previously heterodox church, or a simple room or shed, I had no qualms about such circumstances. What was far more important was that things were done properly.

Quote
Moreover, to comment on the use of "icons" as giving "an Orthodox gloss" to the worship space is also insulting to icons--as if they exist exclusively as ecclesiastical cosmetics or cultural ornament--and is surprising coming from someone like yourself, with your vast knowledge about and reverence for icons.  

Another incomprehensible and strange comment coming from you.  Huh Huh

It is precisely my love and reverence for icons which prompted me to post as I did. In my time on this forum, I have not ceased to drive home the fact that icons are not mere "religious art", but something far more profound and holy. However, when I see pictures of a WRO parish which pays such great attention to maintaining Hispanic culture, including conducting processions of post-schism Marian statues which are outside Orthodox tradition, both on the origin of the statue, and in the absence of a liturgical tradition within Orthodoxy of venerating statues and their liturgical commemoration, am I not justified in saying what I did?
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« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2014, 09:43:53 PM »

such as the presence of vases of flowers on the altar. Pretty, but they have no place there

Aren't flowers on altars a semi-regular occurrence in various (even if non-Byzantine) traditions?
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« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2014, 09:54:53 PM »

such as the presence of vases of flowers on the altar. Pretty, but they have no place there

Aren't flowers on altars a semi-regular occurrence in various (even if non-Byzantine) traditions?

They shouldn't be. The Holy Table should only bear liturgical items (blessing crosses, liturgical Gospel, Eucharistic vessels and objects, the sepulcher containing the reserved Gifts, altarcloths, and the like). What liturgical function do flowers have?
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« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2014, 10:11:20 PM »

such as the presence of vases of flowers on the altar. Pretty, but they have no place there

Aren't flowers on altars a semi-regular occurrence in various (even if non-Byzantine) traditions?

They shouldn't be. The Holy Table should only bear liturgical items (blessing crosses, liturgical Gospel, Eucharistic vessels and objects, the sepulcher containing the reserved Gifts, altarcloths, and the like). What liturgical function do flowers have?

Well, it seems that in the Latin tradition there are traditionally specific places around the altar (e.g. on the raised tiers, where reliquaries are also often kept) that flowers are to be placed. Someone else more knowledgeable in the Latin Rite may clarify, since I'm not terribly well-versed in it.

Besides, which pictures of the WR church in question do you object to? If the ones in my OP, they're actually on small tables right next to the altar, rather than the altar table itself. If you look at the video it shows the tables more clearly, although there are just candles on them instead of flowers in it.
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« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2014, 12:06:22 AM »

The fact that communion is mentioned at all in the caption to the photograph should be plenty cause for concern. Moreover, the age at which confession is considered as appropriate for children is not a "cause for celebration", but a quiet, circumspect and private matter. Turning it into an ersatz version of western confirmation does nobody any favors.

LBK,

Unless you know something I don't know, we are both working from assumptions based on a parish website.  Because of that, I'm not ready to uncritically praise or dismiss anything. 

I'm not concerned that Communion was mentioned at all.  It appears that this is a WRO parish ministering to a Spanish speaking community in Miami, FL.  In such cultures, influenced as they are by Roman Catholicism, such celebrations are common, and the absence of them would be unthinkable.  What is the proper response as a Church to this pastoral issue?  To kill that aspect of their culture?  I suspect, were the Church to try this, that the people would just do it on their own time, and the Church would be left out of that part of her members' lives.  Should we send them back to Roman Catholicism?  Were we to do that, we could not call ourselves the Church.  Or ought we to "baptise" that custom as far as possible and bring it into the local Church?  I lean toward this solution...to let the light of Christ illumine all. 

Again, if we discovered that they are withholding Communion from children until they reach a certain age, then I would be concerned.  But right now, I'm not sure we have reason to suspect this.   

Regarding first confession as a "quiet, circumspect, and private matter", I'm not sure I agree.  You might feel that way, and I might agree, but that's not the only way it has to be. 

Quote
Please read my posts carefully. There is far more to my objection than the mere "esthetics" of the church in question. There are also other elements in the photographs which I found objectionable, but on which I did not initially comment, such as the presence of vases of flowers on the altar. Pretty, but they have no place there, just as microphones and other non-liturgical items have no place on the Holy Table, items which, unfortunately, are all too prevalent these days in many a "byzantine" Orthodox church (to use your terminology).

I haven't examined the photos to see if the altar in this church has gradines.  Usually flowers, relics, candles, etc. are placed here.  But let's assume it's a small space and they don't have gradines: even so, flowers are enough a part of Western liturgical tradition that there are rubrics governing the days and seasons when the altar is not to be adorned with them.  If this community is maintaining continuity with such traditions as best they can in their local circumstances, I can't fault them for that. 

While it's not ideal to have a cluttered mensa, the Western Christians are usually much better about this than the Eastern Christians.     

Quote
I hold to no double standard.

I'll also mention that I have attended, and, in some cases, been closely involved, with parishes whose services are conducted in buildings or spaces which were not purpose-built Orthodox churches. Yet, whether in a previously heterodox church, or a simple room or shed, I had no qualms about such circumstances. What was far more important was that things were done properly.

I agree, what is most important is that things are done properly.  In the case of this parish, the standard for "doing things properly" is traditional Western liturgical custom as practiced in the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America.  That's why I'm not too concerned about "First Confession", but I do wonder why ripidia with bells (about as OO as it gets) are being used in a Roman rite Mass.   

Quote
It is precisely my love and reverence for icons which prompted me to post as I did. In my time on this forum, I have not ceased to drive home the fact that icons are not mere "religious art", but something far more profound and holy. However, when I see pictures of a WRO parish which pays such great attention to maintaining Hispanic culture, including conducting processions of post-schism Marian statues which are outside Orthodox tradition, both on the origin of the statue, and in the absence of a liturgical tradition within Orthodoxy of venerating statues and their liturgical commemoration, am I not justified in saying what I did?

With more information, you might be justified, but I don't know that we are there yet.  We know this is a Western rite parish (in a canonical EO diocese) and we know its members are mostly of Hispanic origin and Spanish speaking.  We can reasonably expect it's not going to look like a Ukrainian church, so our standards for judging what is and is not proper have to be different from the start. 

Regarding statues in general, I'm not sure I accept the arguments against them.  This was discussed in another thread several months ago: I didn't really agree with the arguments made in that thread against statues, and at least some of my questions went unanswered.  But not only can we assume that the use of statues in this parish is with the blessing of the local bishop, but Nephi posted a quote from an official archdiocesan publication which claims the original statue, of which the statue in question here is a copy, "originated in fourth century North Africa, in the Oratory of Saint Augustine".  Now, if that's erroneous, let's talk about that.  But if it's not, the statue predates the third ecumenical council: most of the icons in the Orthodox world with a particular devotion associated with them are much more recent than that.       
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« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2014, 01:45:10 AM »

It must be a pan-Orthodox Western Rite with some Coptic parishioners probably due to Coptic-Orthodox intermarriages.

I have seen First Confession ceremonies in the OCA and in the Greek Orthodox Church.
Don't forget that there are a lot of inter-faith marriages between Roman Catholics & Orthodox.
Increasingly, more Roman Catholics are allowed to be godparents at Orthodox Baptisms in the Antiochian, Greek, and OCA parishes.  I have witnessed these ceremonies.

Quote from: Mor Ephrem
I agree, what is most important is that things are done properly.  In the case of this parish, the standard for "doing things properly" is traditional Western liturgical custom as practiced in the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America.  That's why I'm not too concerned about "First Confession", but I do wonder why ripidia with bells (about as OO as it gets) are being used in a Roman rite Mass.
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« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2014, 01:48:01 AM »

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Don't forget that there are a lot of inter-faith marriages between Roman Catholics & Orthodox.

How does this affect Orthodox liturgical practice? More to the point, why should it affect Orthodox liturgical practice?
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« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2014, 01:51:47 AM »

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Don't forget that there are a lot of inter-faith marriages between Roman Catholics & Orthodox.

How does this affect Orthodox liturgical practice? More to the point, why should it affect Orthodox liturgical practice?

Well, I have heard some of the "Roman Catholic godparents" say that they are going to take their godchild to the Catholic Church for their First Confession and First Communion. And then we tell this RC Godparent that the child has just received Baptism, Chrismation, and First Holy Communion as an Orthodox Christian. And their response: "Well they should still participate in the First Communion Ceremony, like a coming of age ceremony."   Shocked

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2014, 01:54:17 AM »

Quote
Don't forget that there are a lot of inter-faith marriages between Roman Catholics & Orthodox.

How does this affect Orthodox liturgical practice? More to the point, why should it affect Orthodox liturgical practice?

Well, I have heard some of the "Roman Catholic godparents" say that they are going to take their godchild to the Catholic Church for their First Confession and First Communion. And then we tell this RC Godparent that the child has just received Baptism, Chrismation, and First Holy Communion as an Orthodox Christian. And their response: "Well they should still participate in the First Communion Ceremony, like a coming of age ceremony."   Shocked

 Roll Eyes

Which has precisely no bearing on proper Orthodox liturgical practice, and neither should it. The honest ignorance of certain people should never trump what is right and proper.
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« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2014, 02:44:48 AM »

Quote
Don't forget that there are a lot of inter-faith marriages between Roman Catholics & Orthodox.

How does this affect Orthodox liturgical practice? More to the point, why should it affect Orthodox liturgical practice?

Well, I have heard some of the "Roman Catholic godparents" say that they are going to take their godchild to the Catholic Church for their First Confession and First Communion. And then we tell this RC Godparent that the child has just received Baptism, Chrismation, and First Holy Communion as an Orthodox Christian. And their response: "Well they should still participate in the First Communion Ceremony, like a coming of age ceremony."   Shocked

 Roll Eyes

Which has precisely no bearing on proper Orthodox liturgical practice, and neither should it. The honest ignorance of certain people should never trump what is right and proper.

We all have our views, and my ideals are as medieval as the next fellows, but I have to admit that perhaps economy or relaxation is sometimes necessary.

LBK, after all that 18th c. baroque spanish style from Our Lady of Regla, does not the Lamb of God portrayal in an early medieval latin churches seem a bit more palatable?



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« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2014, 02:56:35 AM »

Quote
Don't forget that there are a lot of inter-faith marriages between Roman Catholics & Orthodox.

How does this affect Orthodox liturgical practice? More to the point, why should it affect Orthodox liturgical practice?

Well, I have heard some of the "Roman Catholic godparents" say that they are going to take their godchild to the Catholic Church for their First Confession and First Communion. And then we tell this RC Godparent that the child has just received Baptism, Chrismation, and First Holy Communion as an Orthodox Christian. And their response: "Well they should still participate in the First Communion Ceremony, like a coming of age ceremony."   Shocked

 Roll Eyes

Which has precisely no bearing on proper Orthodox liturgical practice, and neither should it. The honest ignorance of certain people should never trump what is right and proper.

LBK, after all that 18th c. baroque spanish style from Our Lady of Regla, does not the Lamb of God portrayal in an early medieval latin churches seem a bit more palatable?

If such post-date the Quinisext Council of 692 where the lamb as a representation of Christ was explicitly proscribed (and the tenor of Canon 82 also proscribes any symbolic, metaphysical or imaginary portrayal of the second person of the Holy Trinity), then, no, such a portrayal is not acceptable. Its presence in churches of earlier vintage can be seen for what it is - an image which the Church knows to be deficient, but placed in them at a time prior to its clear and unequivocal proscription.
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« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2014, 03:01:13 AM »


http://www.metmuseum.org/exhibitions/view?exhibitionId={0CEDC8EE-3623-4075-AABF-7518259E37E2}&oid=478630&pg=1&rpp=20&pos=12&ft=*

Date:
    before 1022

Culture:
    German (Hildesheim)
Medium:
    Gold on linden wood core, filigree, and precious and semiprecious stones

With evidence such as this, I'm willing to concede that there may be a place for statues, and better yet - golden reliquaries that look like statues - in the western rite. I'm not a historical revisionist, and I know statues were rare and extra special, definitely emerging in northern carolingian europe long before southern states as italy and spain, but emerge they did. There are enough late 10th century examples from germany that I dont pretend they can be ignored, as much as they may be disliked or be disharmonious with eastern tradition.

The upside is that the earliest statues are often not as naturalistic as the later and have a certain compatiabilit with the hieratic mystical art of the late antique romanesque and medieval byzantine eras.
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« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2014, 03:06:53 AM »

Quote
The Western Church never recognized the 102 disciplinary canons of this council, although later statements by some of the bishops of Rome, notably Popes Constantine and Hadrian I, seem to show an acceptance that could be summed up as expressed by Pope John VII: that he accepted all those canons which did not contradict the true faith, good morals, and decrees of Rome. The Orthodox Churches consider this council as ecumenical and adds its canons to the decrees of the Fifth and Sixth Councils.

Many of the canons were reiterations of previously passed canons. However, most of the new canons exhibited an inimical attitude towards churches not in disciplinary accord with Constantinople, especially the Western Churches. Their customs are anathematized and "every little detail of difference is remembered to be condemned"

I wonder what the old Orthodox Pope John VII would have said to you about that, LBK.
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« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2014, 03:08:15 AM »


http://www.metmuseum.org/exhibitions/view?exhibitionId={0CEDC8EE-3623-4075-AABF-7518259E37E2}&oid=478630&pg=1&rpp=20&pos=12&ft=*

Date:
    before 1022

Culture:
    German (Hildesheim)
Medium:
    Gold on linden wood core, filigree, and precious and semiprecious stones

With evidence such as this, I'm willing to concede that there may be a place for statues, and better yet - golden reliquaries that look like statues - in the western rite. I'm not a historical revisionist, and I know statues were rare and extra special, definitely emerging in northern carolingian europe long before southern states as italy and spain, but emerge they did. There are enough late 10th century examples from germany that I dont pretend they can be ignored, as much as they may be disliked or be disharmonious with eastern tradition.

The upside is that the earliest statues are often not as naturalistic as the later and have a certain compatiabilit with the hieratic mystical art of the late antique romanesque and medieval byzantine eras.

As much as you yearn for it to be so, Orthodoxy simply never held statues in any regard as venerable objects. Nowhere in the writings of iconodule and iconoclast alike is there any mention of statues (as distinct from bas-reliefs) as objects of veneration. Surely the iconoclasts would have railed against statues as virulently as they did against icons. Yet they did not, because only icons were used for veneration and liturgical use.

The existence of a tiny number of early religious statues does not a tradition make.
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« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2014, 03:16:03 AM »

I could care less for statues (not to say I dislike them). But I can not undo the decision of my ancestors...to a certain extent I accept what is and live with it, therefore if they are there and symbolize an important saint, I'm obliged to venerate them as would anyone else. I like the western rite of orthodoxy because it has less and often no statues, but I recognize and respect some exceptions. I prefer images over statues personally. yet a parish, like a culture, it is a delicate thing, it can only take so much change.

I trust that God allowed these statues to be there, despite my own limited interest in that form of expression.
I do not think I can "play God".
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« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2014, 03:17:07 AM »

Quote
The Western Church never recognized the 102 disciplinary canons of this council, although later statements by some of the bishops of Rome, notably Popes Constantine and Hadrian I, seem to show an acceptance that could be summed up as expressed by Pope John VII: that he accepted all those canons which did not contradict the true faith, good morals, and decrees of Rome. The Orthodox Churches consider this council as ecumenical and adds its canons to the decrees of the Fifth and Sixth Councils.

I wonder what the old Orthodox Pope John VII would have said to you about that, LBK.

Does not the church of Rome accept the Quinisext Council? If it does, it's blithely ignored Canon 82, which sowed the seeds of the eventual estrangement of western religious art with the traditions, liturgical and canonical, of iconography.

I stand by what I write on iconography, even if it causes discomfort to some.
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« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2014, 03:23:08 AM »

I admit more canons on images (and statues) is needed in the west. The degree of variety that exists within it is a bit overwhelming, there has been far too much individual innovation from particular artists.  Trullo's iconography canons are generally good. I only think/wish an exception could be made in its strictness against newly made images of the Agnus Dei, within the Latin rite only. To a certain extent I believe it was an unfortunate turn of history that the latin church deviated in it's art and architecture from it's old roman/syrian/hellenic roots. Some will say gothic architecture is great, and uniquely western. I sympathize with this view. Perhaps..but perhaps also it reflects some purely carolingian scholastic cultural ideas. Gothic architecture never totally dominated Italy, so at least Italy is truer to it's roots in fresco and mosaic.

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« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2014, 03:24:57 AM »

I could care less for statues (not to say I dislike them). But I can not undo the decision of my ancestors...to a certain extent I accept what is and live with it. I like the western rite of orthodoxy because it has less and often no statues, but I recognize and respect some exceptions. A parish is a delicate thing, it can only take so much change.

I trust that God allowed these statues to be there, despite my own limited interest in that form of expression.
I do not think I can "play God".


Nobody can undo the errors of our ancestors, and many were made in genuine and honest ignorance. However, when we have the knowledge of what is true and proper, pleading "cultural ties" is a hollow argument for the perpetuation of error.

Do not think that I am unaware of the power of sentimental ties with what is familiar. Over the years, I have spent much time and effort in educating individuals and groups (including clergy  Shocked ) on the whys and wherefores of proper iconography. I have even been approached by iconographers for advice. It takes much time, effort and patience, but changing hearts and minds is not impossible. Difficult, but not impossible.
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« Reply #44 on: March 28, 2014, 03:29:44 AM »

Does not the church of Rome accept the Quinisext Council?

It's my understanding that the Church of Rome never accepted Trullo etc., and those few Western individuals/churches that were favorable toward it were just that - few, and temporary.
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« Reply #45 on: March 28, 2014, 03:31:22 AM »

I admit more canons on images (and statues) is needed in the west.

The West did not need "more canons". Those from the Quinisext was quite sufficient, but the west chose to not implement them.

Quote
The degree of variety that exists within it is a bit overwhelming, there has been far too much individual innovation from particular artists.

See above. When religious art became subservient to artistic creativity, esthetics, and the demands of patrons, instead of being a reflection and proclamation of Church teaching, what do you expect?

Quote
I only think/wish an exception could be made in its strictness against newly made images of the Agnus Dei, within the Latin rite only.

Why? Should Canon 82 be trumped for cultural sentimentality?

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« Reply #46 on: March 28, 2014, 03:51:15 AM »

The West did not need "more canons". Those from the Quinisext was quite sufficient, but the west chose to not implement them.

Since the entire Council of Trullo seems to have been little more than an exercise in Byzantine triumphalism, which is certainly how almost all of the Latin West perceived it at the time and forever after, it's no surprise they never implemented its canons.

In fact, wasn't Trullo around the time that Rome and Constantinople started having an endless tit-for-tat struggle over whose traditions were better? Eventually culminating three centuries later with the active Latinizing of Southern Italy and Byzantinizing of Constantinople's Latins.
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« Reply #47 on: March 28, 2014, 08:57:51 AM »

Like probably thirty percent of all.North American Orthodox Christians today, my ancestors in Europe were pious, faithful Eastern Catholics for centuries. They didn't wake up one day and say, "Yurko, let's stop being Pravoslavs  today and submit to that Pope guy in Rome.  " "OK, Vasil, sounds  good to me."  Nor did the reverse occur in the late 19th through middle 20th centuries when a crisis in faith caused a large shift to return to Orthodoxy.

I mention this because all of my life I've put up with the well intentioned (I presume) but tone deaf proclamations of "This or THAT is not Orthodox  -enough!" Churches came over to Orthodoxy from the Unia intact, many with tiered altars and new ones, built as the faithful remembered them from Europe , often as a labor of love, by simple hard working people who not only chose to leave family and parishes they built twenty years before. They weren't retrofitted to.meet some arbitrary schedule.

To say it was disheartening for them to hear other Orthodox stand and condescendingly judge them as being "inferior" or not really Orthodox is an understatement. Like it or not, that attitude hardened feelings for generations and has much to do with our continuing  lack of unity today in North America.

First Communion morphed into First Confession as a familial and cultural rite of passage. New facilities built across the OCA, ACROD and the UOCUSA reflected a correct vision of culture and faith as the people's understanding of why and how blossomed. Service books were gradually brought into compliance with Orthodox norms.

Thousands though who came to Orthodoxy but who were discouraged and disgusted by the unwelcoming "embrace" of the naysayers gave up and returned to the Greek Catholic faith.

Thanks be to God for wise and patient leaders like Patriarch Athenagoras, Archbishop Iakovas and the Metropolia' s Metropolitan Leonty and others, including hard working priests (who had to learn and adapt at the same time they led) who had the wisdom to know that Rome wasn't built in a day and a teaching patience would bear fruit in future generations.

Leave these people be to the pastoral counsel of their God fearing priests and Bishops as they learn to know and love Orthodoxy. Stop being like BOTH the Latinizing Romans and the judgmental Orthodox who played the role of the Pharisees in my story. Give them a break.

Also, in Slavic, non Russian tradition floral adornment of churches, including altar areas, is a small t tradition through the Carpathian lands including Romanian, Rusyn, Lemko,Slovak  and Ukrainian Christians - both Orthodox and Eastern Catholic. Likewise one will find ornate hand embroidered vestments and altar covers with both floral and geometric regional patterning in such communities as well.

I wasn't going to comment, but you all struck a raw nerve.
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« Reply #48 on: March 28, 2014, 12:26:54 PM »

Maybe this comment is slightly random, but I will make it anyway.

Personally, too many Orthodox Catholic churches which adopt an occidental liturgy look Eastern in both look and feel. I understand that these parishes often have few resources, but the Western rite is in severe need of liturgical renewal and beautification.

I have a deep and profound love of icons, do understand that. I carry a small one portraying the events of Whitsunday (Pentecost) in my pocket every day without fail. However, the practice of iconography is foreign to the West, and therefore, I am not too sure as to the role icons can or should have in Western liturgies. What needs to be enriched and cultivated is the usage of traditional Western liturgical elements such as chant in all its forms, the organ, and hymns. Let the Western use churches celebrate what is part of their cultural patrimony. That means allowing statues, correct colour liturgical vestments (blue used liturgically in the West during Advent only, not on feasts of the Blessed Virgin like in the East), and stopping Byzantisations.
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« Reply #49 on: March 28, 2014, 12:35:19 PM »

Apparently "Western" equates with "post-reformation Roman Catholicism". Which is of course a fairly silly idea. Icons have always been part of Western christianity whereas wide use of statues are of more recent origin.
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« Reply #50 on: March 28, 2014, 12:43:09 PM »

Apparently "Western" equates with "post-reformation Roman Catholicism". Which is of course a fairly silly idea. Icons have always been part of Western christianity whereas wide use of statues are of more recent origin.

It hasn't been for quite some time, and until I discovered Orthodox Catholicism, icons were foreign to me. Icons, to put it plain and simple, have no place in traditional Western liturgical worship, or at least have not for some time. Icons are very much Eastern, not Western. Maybe it's my liturgical taste, but icons and the West seem to be things that have no relationship to one another.
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« Reply #51 on: March 28, 2014, 12:53:18 PM »

You might be suprised if you made a pilgrimage to, say, Spain and Italy. Or frankly any other European country.

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« Reply #52 on: March 28, 2014, 01:02:05 PM »

You might be suprised if you made a pilgrimage to, say, Spain and Italy. Or frankly any other Southern European country.

There are two icons, one of the Theotokos and one of Christ, in Westminster Abbey in London. Icons are beautiful, indeed so, but if they are to be used in the Western churches, I would like to see them incorporated smartly into the design of the church, not placed on the choir screen so as to recreate an iconostasis. Anything of substance that can adore the sacraments with beauty should be explored, whether it be a mass setting by Schubert, stain glass, hymns, or a cantata by Bach.

On that note, is there an iconography tradition that is organically Western in nature?
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« Reply #53 on: March 28, 2014, 01:07:16 PM »

I think all of the Catholic churches I've attended have had some degree of icons, even if the laity may just think they're decorative pictures.

Most Catholic parishes have some sort of setup like this:


A FSSP church in OH:
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« Reply #54 on: March 28, 2014, 01:15:38 PM »

Oh, those are considered icons? There is a Western iconographic tradition!



I would think this stricter in appearance, but it seems to be of the type of design the Orthodox Catholic Church would prefer.
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« Reply #55 on: March 28, 2014, 01:20:20 PM »

Oh, those are considered icons? There is a Western iconographic tradition!



I would think this stricter in appearance, but it seems to be of the type of design the Orthodox Catholic Church would prefer.


I don't know about the style of that icon in particular, but I've read that the Antiochian Archdiocese has deemed Romanescque icons to be the preferred style of Western Rite parishes. Do a Google search for "Romanesque icons" and you'll see quite a few examples, modern and ancient.
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« Reply #56 on: March 28, 2014, 01:28:34 PM »

Romanesque icons are quite different from any icons I have seen, but they have a mediaeval beauty to them. They also seem to make more sense within Western churches.
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« Reply #57 on: March 28, 2014, 01:30:35 PM »

A FSSP church in OH:


Where in OH?  How did I miss this?
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« Reply #58 on: March 28, 2014, 01:31:38 PM »

It must be a pan-Orthodox Western Rite with some Coptic parishioners probably due to Coptic-Orthodox intermarriages.

I doubt that very much.
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« Reply #59 on: March 28, 2014, 01:48:30 PM »


When in Rome two years ago, my brother was amazed at the number of pre-schism Roman basilicas and neighborhood churches with extant examples of first millenium iconography - where it was preserved as a tradition from prior to that of the eastern iconoclasts.

Commissioned in the ninth century, here is one 9th century apse mosaic commissioned by Pope Paschal I in the Church of Santa Maria in Domnica in Rome :

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« Reply #60 on: March 28, 2014, 02:00:20 PM »

A FSSP church in OH:


Where in OH?  How did I miss this?

Here. I'm supposed to be visiting there someday in the nearish future.
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« Reply #61 on: March 28, 2014, 02:38:01 PM »

Quote
Don't forget that there are a lot of inter-faith marriages between Roman Catholics & Orthodox.

How does this affect Orthodox liturgical practice? More to the point, why should it affect Orthodox liturgical practice?

Well, I have heard some of the "Roman Catholic godparents" say that they are going to take their godchild to the Catholic Church for their First Confession and First Communion. And then we tell this RC Godparent that the child has just received Baptism, Chrismation, and First Holy Communion as an Orthodox Christian. And their response: "Well they should still participate in the First Communion Ceremony, like a coming of age ceremony."   Shocked

 Roll Eyes

Which has precisely no bearing on proper Orthodox liturgical practice, and neither should it. The honest ignorance of certain people should never trump what is right and proper.

What is "right and proper" has varied widely from time to time and from place to place.  It doesn't make sense to absolutize current Byzantine practice as normative for all Orthodox.  East and West have both changed a great deal over time, including pre-schism time.
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« Reply #62 on: March 28, 2014, 06:30:40 PM »

As a student of art history, I assure everyone that the latin rite art and architecture from the years 300 AD to 1200 AD was consistently unified and similar, as far as the prototypes. The only way it which it has diversity was through localized variation which occured mostly because of the different tribes that had invaded and conquered the western roman empire. This means that "insular" or so-called barbaric , more primitive artistic expression existed with also the more refined late antique roman/hellenic influence, which never disappeared in Italy.


It lacked profound diversity. between 950 and 1200 statues became known, but for veneration purposes, it was rare to find very many in a single church until later. Athough after 1150 in the early stages of gothic/norman architecture the use of 3d statuary for decorative purposes came to be more common.

While I sympathise that iconography and images of the latin west from the earlier middle ages are often not known to the average person in the united states in anglican or roman catholic churches, they did in fact once exist more prominently .
Yes the west and western iconography was always unique and always different than the east, but not in such a profound way, not in such a drastic way as perhaps it became in the later middle ages and present age. So yes, a distinct latin rite iconography that is ancient is worth reviving. It is easy to find examples from the past and it compliments byzantine traditions quite nicely, even if it is not always neatly canonical or perfectly according to councils such as trullo, it is historically what was used. All westerners owe it to themselves to have more familiarity if they are so priviledged with time or resources/.


The entry of Jesus into Jerusalem - L'Epistolario miniato di Giovanni da Gaibana, 1259 AD, (Padova, Italia)


The Entry into Jerusalem - Benedictional of St. Aethelwold (971-984 AD), f.45v - BL Add MS 49598 (England)


(same 13th c. italian MS as above)

(same 10th c. english ms as above)

Edited to re-size images.  Mor.
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« Reply #63 on: March 28, 2014, 07:04:20 PM »

Quote
It is easy to find examples from the past and it compliments byzantine traditions quite nicely, even if it is not always neatly canonical or perfectly according to councils such as trullo, it is historically what was used. All westerners owe it to themselves to have more familiarity if they are so priviledged with time or resources/.

As I said before, the presence of uncanonical imagery in pre-Trullo churches is a matter of history. Any "revival" must not include such imagery. Iconography is a matter of expressing proper doctrine. Period.
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« Reply #64 on: March 30, 2014, 12:21:30 PM »

The latter seems very, very Latin. What's the background of the parish? Was it born as a WRO parish or did it convert from some other denomination?
It's a Spanish-language Cuban parish. This is patron saint feast day, so they process outside all around the neighborhood, with instruments and singing. It's a typical Latin parish, and these are their customs.
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« Reply #65 on: March 30, 2014, 12:26:35 PM »

It's kind of odd to see clergy vested as Eastern Rite clergy in a Western Rite service! In one of the pictures by Nephi, a priest wears an epitrachelion, and a deacon and subdeacon are vested in the Eastern manner.

These are visiting clergy from the Miami area invited to attend the Parrish's patronal feast day. There was an outdoor procession, so they look like they were dressed appropriately
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« Reply #66 on: March 30, 2014, 12:28:48 PM »

In the second photo, what's with the ripidia with bells?  How OO of them!  Smiley

What is going on with the band? Is that part of the procession?

Yes. It's done in Latino parishes. You see that a lot in Italy in some regions too.
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« Reply #67 on: March 30, 2014, 12:32:42 PM »

The "first communion" business on the second site is just wrong, wrong, wrong.

The caption on the photo says "First Confession and Communion", which, to me, doesn't necessarily imply "First Communion".  If the WRO have the same practice as the rest of the Orthodox re: communing infants and children, perhaps this is just a way of bringing in as much of a type of popular, cultural rite of passage as possible?

There is no first Communion at this or any AWRV parish. I went to this parish for a year, so I know.
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« Reply #68 on: March 30, 2014, 12:35:58 PM »

I like the blue chasuble. It's beautiful.

Statues are not traditionally to be used liturgically. Nothing wrong with them otherwise but IMO they shouldn't have any liturgical function.

Blue is used on Marian feast days, like this one. Russians blue too on those feast days. When I was at St. Nicholas OCA Cathedral in DC, they used blue for Dormition.
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« Reply #69 on: March 30, 2014, 12:36:21 PM »

There is no first Communion at this or any AWRV parish. I went to this parish for a year, so I know.

Excellent, I figured this was the case.  
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« Reply #70 on: March 30, 2014, 12:45:24 PM »

I like the blue chasuble. It's beautiful.

Statues are not traditionally to be used liturgically. Nothing wrong with them otherwise but IMO they shouldn't have any liturgical function.

Blue is used on Marian feast days, like this one.

That seems more like turquoise than blue. Not that there would be anything wrong with turquoise but that caught my attention. I haven't seen turquoise vestments before this.
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« Reply #71 on: March 30, 2014, 12:55:04 PM »

I like the blue chasuble. It's beautiful.

Statues are not traditionally to be used liturgically. Nothing wrong with them otherwise but IMO they shouldn't have any liturgical function.

Blue is used on Marian feast days, like this one.

That seems more like turquoise than blue. Not that there would be anything wrong with turquoise but that caught my attention. I haven't seen turquoise vestments before this.

It's blue enough. Most small places like this take what they can get.
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« Reply #72 on: March 30, 2014, 02:11:59 PM »

The latter seems very, very Latin. What's the background of the parish? Was it born as a WRO parish or did it convert from some other denomination?
It's a Spanish-language Cuban parish. This is patron saint feast day, so they process outside all around the neighborhood, with instruments and singing. It's a typical Latin parish, and these are their customs.

One of the few books I enjoyed reading last semester was on Hispanic spirituality/theology (with nice detail of Holy Week practices), so I think it's great seeing such a sight in a AWRV parish.
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« Reply #73 on: March 30, 2014, 02:16:08 PM »

There is a Hispanic spirituality? Huh
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« Reply #74 on: March 30, 2014, 02:29:05 PM »

There is a Hispanic spirituality? Huh

Well, compared to American Catholics, they have a very distinct religious culture that shows from their homes, to how they celebrate feast days, to their processions, Holy Week observances, etc. St. Juan Diego and his interactions with Our Lady of Guadalupe have a significant importance for Hispanic Catholic practice and theology, although I'm not sure how much this would carry over into the AWRV.
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« Reply #75 on: March 30, 2014, 02:54:03 PM »

There is a Hispanic spirituality? Huh

Well, St. James DID evangelize the Iberian peninsula and his relics are at Santiago de Compostella. This spirituality has its roots in Spain.
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« Reply #76 on: March 30, 2014, 03:21:34 PM »

There is a Hispanic spirituality? Huh

Well, St. James DID evangelize the Iberian peninsula and his relics are at Santiago de Compostella. This spirituality has its roots in Spain.

I fail to understand what this has to do with my question. Please elaborate.

Also, please note that I'm not criticizing the idea of Hispanic spirituality. I just don't understand it what it means.
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« Reply #77 on: March 30, 2014, 05:48:52 PM »

There is a Hispanic spirituality? Huh

Well, St. James DID evangelize the Iberian peninsula and his relics are at Santiago de Compostella. This spirituality has its roots in Spain.

I fail to understand what this has to do with my question. Please elaborate.

Also, please note that I'm not criticizing the idea of Hispanic spirituality. I just don't understand it what it means.

I guess not. There has been Hispanic spirituality since apostolic times was my point. An apostle buried in Spain, for crying out loud. The things previously described are the direct descendants of that spirituality. So I guess I fail to understand what your "Hispanic spirituality?Huh" means. I was pointing that it's been around since almost time that there was even a Church.
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« Reply #78 on: March 30, 2014, 05:51:56 PM »

I fail to understand what this has to do with my question. Please elaborate.

Also, please note that I'm not criticizing the idea of Hispanic spirituality. I just don't understand it what it means.

I guess not. There has been Hispanic spirituality since apostolic times was my point. An apostle buried in Spain, for crying out loud. The things previously described are the direct descendants of that spirituality. So I guess I fail to understand what your "Hispanic spirituality?Huh" means. I was pointing that it's been around since almost time that there was even a Church.

I think Alpo just wonders what is distinct enough about Hispanic spirituality to speak of it separately from other forms of spirituality. I.e., what makes "Hispanic spirituality" different from just "Catholic spirituality" or something along those lines.
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« Reply #79 on: March 30, 2014, 06:18:14 PM »

I fail to understand what this has to do with my question. Please elaborate.

Also, please note that I'm not criticizing the idea of Hispanic spirituality. I just don't understand it what it means.

I guess not. There has been Hispanic spirituality since apostolic times was my point. An apostle buried in Spain, for crying out loud. The things previously described are the direct descendants of that spirituality. So I guess I fail to understand what your "Hispanic spirituality?Huh" means. I was pointing that it's been around since almost time that there was even a Church.

I think Alpo just wonders what is distinct enough about Hispanic spirituality to speak of it separately from other forms of spirituality. I.e., what makes "Hispanic spirituality" different from just "Catholic spirituality" or something along those lines.

Makes sense. Thanks, Nephi
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« Reply #80 on: March 30, 2014, 06:49:29 PM »

I'll make one comment about hispanic spirituality.

Hispanic spirituality is simply devout catholic spirituality that comes from a country that has always been Catholic.
Catholics in the USA that speak english inevitably have more protestant influence today because the USA is still a rather anti-Catholic/anti-Orthodox protestant nation, as far as faith goes. This is especially true today, the further back you go the more the catholics were in their own ghettos or had less protestant influence in the USA.

One of the interesting things I've noticed is that the bulletins from the some of spanish masses sometimes have far superior private prayers on them than the english bulletins from the exact same church. Even though the spanish mass is in the new "spirit of vatican II" protestant influenced liturgical form, the sermons are often very good, more intense and expressive, like saint augustine. And despite mediocre guitar music, they occasionally carry on a few more stronger catholic traditions , such as "The Churching of Women". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churching_of_women

Here is one of the prayers that i saved from a the spanish mass bulletin.
This is exactly as it was, with this exact same picture printed in it.

Quote

 ORACIÓN A LA VIRGEN DEL CARMEN

Oh Virgen Maria, Madre de Dios y Madre también de los pecadores y especial Protectora de los que visten tu sagrado Escapulario, por lo que su Divina Majestad te engrandeció, escogiéndote para verdadera Madre suya, te suplico me alcances de tu querido Hijo, el perdón de mis pecados, la enmienda de mi vida, la salvación de mi alma, el remedio de mis necesidades, el consuelo de mis aflicciones y la gracia especial que te pido en esta Novena, si conviene para su mayor honra y gloria y bien de mi alma; que yo, Señora, para conseguirlo me valgo de vuestra intercesión poderosa. Quisiera tener el espíritu de todos los ángeles, santos y justos a fin de poder alabarte dignamente y uniendo mi voz con sus afectos, te saludo una y mil veces diciendo: Tres Avemarías..

Virgen Santísima del Carmen, yo deseo que todos sin excepción, se cobijen bajo tu sombra protectora de tu Santo Escapulario y que todos estén unidos a Ti Madre Mía, por los estrechos y amorosos lazos de ésta tu querida insignia.

¡Oh Hermosura del Carmelo! Míranos postrados reverentes ante su sagrada imagen y concédenos benigna tu amorosa protección. Te encomiendo las necesidades de nuestro Santísimo Padre el Papa y la Iglesia Católica, nuestra Madre, así como las de mi nación y las de todo el mundo, las mías propias y las de mis parientes y amigos. Mira con ojos de compasión a tantos pobres pecadores, herejes y cismáticos, cómo ofenden a tu Divino Hijo y a tantos infieles cómo gimen en las tinieblas del paganismo. Que todos se conviertan y te amen, Madre Mía, como yo deseo amarte ahora y por toda la eternidad. Amén.


(flawed translation from google: O Virgin Mary, Mother of God and Mother of sinners and also special protector of those who wear your Scapular sacred , so you magnified the Divine Majesty , escogiéndote for his true Mother , I beg you reach your beloved Son , forgiveness my sins , amendment of my life, the salvation of my soul , the remedy of my needs , the comfort of my afflictions and the special grace I ask in this Novena , if appropriate for your greater honor and glory and the good of my soul, and to me, Madam , to get me worth of your powerful intercession . Want to have the spirit of all the angels, holy and righteous in order to worthily praise and uniting my voice with its affection , I greet you a thousand times saying : Three Hail Marys ..

Blessed Virgin of Carmen , I wish that all without exception, draw near to your shade of your Holy Scapular and everyone is united to You My Mother , by the close ties of love and your beloved this badge.

Oh Beauty of Carmel ! Watch us prostrate before your sacred image reverent and grant us thy loving protection benign . I entrust the needs of our Holy Father the Pope and the Catholic Church , our Mother , as well as my nation and around the world, my own and those of my family and friends . Look with compassion so many poor sinners, heretics and schismatics , how offend your Divine Son and how many infidels moan in the darkness of paganism . We all love you and become , My Mother , as I want to love you now and for all eternity. Amen .)

This is a completely pre-vatican II style prayer, talking about "how many infidels moan in the darkness of paganism" and "Look with compassion so many poor sinners, heretics and schismatics" (you know what this means!) it is very orthodox and beautiful. This is Catholic spirituality at it's best. Most of the english prayers for the Virgin of Carmel that I have seen are mediocre and lack the depth of this one. For some reason the devotions that survive among Catholics in other countries weren't able to be altered as much as they were in the US or english speaking world. The hierarchy could tinker with the mass and largely succeeded making a mess of it, but they couldn't tinker with the private devotions as easily, Thank God.
 
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« Reply #81 on: March 30, 2014, 10:23:33 PM »

The icon on this document is the Yakhromskaya, or the very similar Yaroslavskaya, both exquisite examples of the Tenderness (Umileniye) type of icons of the Mother of God.

Unfortunately one of the loveliest of icon types has been tweaked in a way which debases it: the presence of the scapular in the Virgin's left hand, and her pointing to it, signifying that it is the way to salvation.  

This is just wrong, wrong, wrong. Angry Angry Angry

If the RCs want to have scapular devotions, fine. Just leave perfectly good icons alone out of respect for them, and not denigrate them by such "creative" additions which distort their theology.
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« Reply #82 on: March 31, 2014, 12:03:33 AM »

Quote
If the RCs want to have scapular devotions, fine. Just leave perfectly good icons alone out of respect for them, and not denigrate them by such "creative" additions which distort their theology.


Wow!  I've never seen anything like that in popular Latino culture in the US.  This looks almost like a Greek icon.  

What are 'scapular devotions'?  I tried to look it up on wiki but I'm wondering what it all means (as usual).   Smiley  It looks like a club or group thing?  Is there anything with which it could be compared in Orthodoxy?  

What does the writing '...MITIS' mean?  Looks like other writing on the other edge of her garment as well.  I've never noticed that in Orthodox icons.  
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« Reply #83 on: March 31, 2014, 12:29:10 AM »

I think Alpo just wonders what is distinct enough about Hispanic spirituality to speak of it separately from other forms of spirituality. I.e., what makes "Hispanic spirituality" different from just "Catholic spirituality" or something along those lines.

Correct.
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