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Author Topic: Western Rite - Pictures & Videos  (Read 1592 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: March 27, 2014, 02:37:26 AM »

I realize how hard it can be to find decent pictures and videos of the Western Rite online, so I thought we could use a thread for it. So share pictures or videos of anything WR-related, e.g. a church's architecture or interior layout, liturgies/services, processions, etc. I'll start it off:

Holy Incarnation Orthodox Church (Antiochian) - Lincoln Park, MI
Video: Easter Mass 2011



Shrine of Our Lady of Regla (Ermita de Regla, Antiochian) - Miami, FL
Video: Tour of the inside of the Church (not perfect quality)




« Last Edit: March 27, 2014, 02:39:52 AM by Nephi » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2014, 01:52:59 PM »

The latter seems very, very Latin. What's the background of the parish? Was it born as a WRO parish or did it convert from some other denomination?
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« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2014, 03:19:46 PM »

In the second photo, what's with the ripidia with bells?  How OO of them!  Smiley
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« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2014, 03:57:59 PM »

It's kind of odd to see clergy vested as Eastern Rite clergy in a Western Rite service! In one of the pictures by Nephi, a priest wears an epitrachelion, and a deacon and subdeacon are vested in the Eastern manner.
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« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2014, 04:00:10 PM »


It just looks all wrong.
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« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2014, 04:04:55 PM »


It just looks all wrong.


If you're referring to the statue, I agree. Otherwise I fail to see anything wrong with the pictures. It's a bit weird to see EOs there but I guess they were visitors from a neighbouring Eastern rite parish. Orthodox unity and all that so I guess I can't complain.
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« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2014, 04:07:42 PM »


It just looks all wrong.


If you're referring to the statue, I agree. Otherwise I fail to see anything wrong with the pictures. It's a bit weird to see EOs there but I guess they were visitors from a neighbouring Eastern rite parish. Orthodox unity and all that so I guess I can't complain.

I don't see anything wrong with the statue.  But I do wonder about the use of ripidia at Mass...the blue chasuble is ugly, too.   
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« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2014, 04:10:37 PM »

I like the blue chasuble. It's beautiful.

Statues are not traditionally to be used liturgically. Nothing wrong with them otherwise but IMO they shouldn't have any liturgical function.
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« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2014, 04:17:16 PM »

In the second photo, what's with the ripidia with bells?  How OO of them!  Smiley

What is going on with the band? Is that part of the procession?
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« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2014, 04:19:24 PM »

I like the blue chasuble. It's beautiful.

Ugh.  I just lost a little respect for you.   Tongue

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Statues are not traditionally to be used liturgically. Nothing wrong with them otherwise but IMO they shouldn't have any liturgical function.

Let me know when your Church stops carrying icons in procession on the Sunday of Orthodoxy and other times. 
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« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2014, 04:28:44 PM »

Let me know when your Church stops carrying icons in procession on the Sunday of Orthodoxy and other times. 

Icons are not statues. Again, nothing wrong with either but the first have various liturgical uses whereas the latter has traditionally no liturgical function.
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« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2014, 04:36:46 PM »

Let me know when your Church stops carrying icons in procession on the Sunday of Orthodoxy and other times. 

Icons are not statues. Again, nothing wrong with either but the first have various liturgical uses whereas the latter has traditionally no liturgical function.

Where did you see a statue used in a liturgical function?
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« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2014, 04:43:59 PM »

Let me know when your Church stops carrying icons in procession on the Sunday of Orthodoxy and other times. 

Icons are not statues. Again, nothing wrong with either but the first have various liturgical uses whereas the latter has traditionally no liturgical function.

Where did you see a statue used in a liturgical function?

The statue is on the altar. Seems pretty liturgical to me. The procession might qualify as liturgical too but as it might be more like para-liturgical I see no problem with that. Hispanics have right to their culture too.
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« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2014, 05:01:06 PM »

The "first communion" business on the second site is just wrong, wrong, wrong.
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« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2014, 05:34:18 PM »

Where did you see a statue used in a liturgical function?

The statue is on the altar. Seems pretty liturgical to me.

If an icon can be on an altar, behind an altar, before an altar, around an altar, etc., I don't see why a statue could not function in this way in a WRO context. 
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« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2014, 05:39:09 PM »

The "first communion" business on the second site is just wrong, wrong, wrong.

The caption on the photo says "First Confession and Communion", which, to me, doesn't necessarily imply "First Communion".  If the WRO have the same practice as the rest of the Orthodox re: communing infants and children, perhaps this is just a way of bringing in as much of a type of popular, cultural rite of passage as possible?
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« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2014, 06:08:27 PM »

The "first communion" business on the second site is just wrong, wrong, wrong.

The caption on the photo says "First Confession and Communion", which, to me, doesn't necessarily imply "First Communion".  If the WRO have the same practice as the rest of the Orthodox re: communing infants and children, perhaps this is just a way of bringing in as much of a type of popular, cultural rite of passage as possible?

The "cultural rite of passage" depicted is one which is quite foreign to Orthodoxy. That whole site gives the impression of a fully RC setup, with surface tweaks such as a few icons to give an Orthodox gloss.
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« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2014, 06:12:26 PM »

The "cultural rite of passage" depicted is one which is quite foreign to Orthodoxy.

Girls and boys in fancy white dresses and suits is foreign to Orthodoxy? 

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That whole site gives the impression of a fully RC setup, with surface tweaks such as a few icons to give an Orthodox gloss.

"Jesus Christ died for Greek people's sins."
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« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2014, 06:15:10 PM »


It just looks all wrong.


If you're referring to the statue, I agree. Otherwise I fail to see anything wrong with the pictures. It's a bit weird to see EOs there but I guess they were visitors from a neighbouring Eastern rite parish. Orthodox unity and all that so I guess I can't complain.

FWIW, if you look at the Youtube channel of the video I posted, they're vested as Eastern when Bishop Antoun is present.

From a 2007 issue of "The Word":

Quote
After a quarter of a century of ministry in the heart of Miami’s Little Havana district, the Ermita de Regla or Shrine of Regla was consecrated on Sunday, 18th of February, 2007.

The Shrine of Our Lady of Regla began in 1982 as a Hispanic Mission of the Cathedral of Saint George in Coral Gables. Led by its founder, the Very Rev. Canon Michael F. Lobo, the community moved to its present location in 1984. The Shrine ministers in both Spanish language and the cultural forms of its largely Hispanic congregation, and follows the Antiochian Western Rite.

The Shrine of Regla is dedicated to the wonder-working image of Our Lady of Regla, one of the historic “Black Virgins” of Western Christianity. The church’s patron image, which is also the Patroness of Little Havana, originated in fourth century North Africa, in the Oratory of Saint Augustine. From there it migrated to southern Spain, and eventually to Cuba and south Florida. The Shrine was a beloved pilgrimage site of the late Cuban cultural icon Celia Cruz.

Here's an image with Metropolitan Philip:

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« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2014, 06:19:29 PM »

The "cultural rite of passage" depicted is one which is quite foreign to Orthodoxy.

Girls and boys in fancy white dresses and suits is foreign to Orthodoxy? 


For first confession and communion at the ages depicted in the photo it is. What is depicted there is neither the post-baptismal garment, nor flowergirls at weddings.


"Jesus Christ died for Greek people's sins."

An uncharacteristic and disappointing comment from you. You should know by now my decades-long experience in most flavors of Orthodoxy, with Russian and Greek being predominant. Insularity is anathema to me, but I don't take kindly to being misrepresented.
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« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2014, 06:19:59 PM »

From a 2007 issue of "The Word":

Quote
The Shrine of Regla is dedicated to the wonder-working image of Our Lady of Regla, one of the historic “Black Virgins” of Western Christianity. The church’s patron image, which is also the Patroness of Little Havana, originated in fourth century North Africa, in the Oratory of Saint Augustine. From there it migrated to southern Spain, and eventually to Cuba and south Florida. The Shrine was a beloved pilgrimage site of the late Cuban cultural icon Celia Cruz.


Interesting: a statue that goes back to St Augustine's private chapel, which means it was around at roughly the same time as St John Chrysostom, St Cyril, etc.  
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« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2014, 06:26:37 PM »

From a 2007 issue of "The Word":

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The Shrine of Regla is dedicated to the wonder-working image of Our Lady of Regla, one of the historic “Black Virgins” of Western Christianity. The church’s patron image, which is also the Patroness of Little Havana, originated in fourth century North Africa, in the Oratory of Saint Augustine. From there it migrated to southern Spain, and eventually to Cuba and south Florida. The Shrine was a beloved pilgrimage site of the late Cuban cultural icon Celia Cruz.


Interesting: a statue that goes back to St Augustine's private chapel, which means it was around at roughly the same time as St John Chrysostom, St Cyril, etc.  

I wasn't sure if they were talking about the statue or the icon (shown in the first couple of pictures I posted), but the statue does make more sense. Interesting.

I think it's a nice statue and it fits beautifully into their altar arrangement. I also like that they seem to be an authentic expression of Central American/Hispanic identity (i.e. not thoroughly Byzantinized) since we always focus on European expressions of Latin Christendom, but I kind of regret including them in this thread.
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« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2014, 07:00:52 PM »

The "cultural rite of passage" depicted is one which is quite foreign to Orthodoxy.

Girls and boys in fancy white dresses and suits is foreign to Orthodoxy? 


For first confession and communion at the ages depicted in the photo it is. What is depicted there is neither the post-baptismal garment, nor flowergirls at weddings.

We have yet to establish that this was in fact "First Communion".  All we know is that it was "First Confession", that somehow "Communion" was linked to it, and they are wearing clothing which is worn by other Hispanics of Roman Catholic faith as part of their own "First Communion" celebrations.  I don't see a problem with that anymore than I'd see a problem with flowergirls in an Orthodox wedding ceremony wearing what flowergirls wear in non-Orthodox wedding ceremonies. 

If they are not communing baptised and chrismated members until they reach "the age of reason", however, or if some other non-Orthodox practice is going on, that's another matter entirely.  I just don't think this is worth fussing over, unless we're going to be fair and fuss over our own "cultural compromises" with the same consistency.   

Quote

"Jesus Christ died for Greek people's sins."

An uncharacteristic and disappointing comment from you. You should know by now my decades-long experience in most flavors of Orthodoxy, with Russian and Greek being predominant. Insularity is anathema to me, but I don't take kindly to being misrepresented.

To your "That whole site gives the impression of a fully RC setup, with surface tweaks such as a few icons to give an Orthodox gloss", I had originally intended to respond with something along the lines of "Guess we have to become Greeks and Russians if we want to have a hope of going to heaven" followed by  Wink, but deleted it in favour of the quote from Mr Panos.  Since I've quoted him before, I thought you'd get the reference and realise that I was making a particular point in a humourous way.  I'm sorry it got lost somewhere and you felt I was attacking you, that wasn't my intention at all.

I cannot apologise, however, for the point itself, that "Orthodox" does not equal "Byzantine".  It is insulting to criticise a WRO church for having a "fully RC setup, with surface tweaks": it is insulting to a community (with which you are in communion) and to the liturgical rite it uses with the blessing of Eastern Orthodox bishops (who use the rite you use).  If a Byzantine rite church ought to look like a Byzantine rite church, why shouldn't a Western rite church look Western?  What else is it supposed to look like? 

Moreover, to comment on the use of "icons" as giving "an Orthodox gloss" to the worship space is also insulting to icons--as if they exist exclusively as ecclesiastical cosmetics or cultural ornament--and is surprising coming from someone like yourself, with your vast knowledge about and reverence for icons. 

I don't believe it is inappropriate to criticise, as I've done it myself in this thread (mostly in terms of hodgepodge ritual and odd vestments).  But I did find some of the criticisms in this thread, including some of yours, to be strange.             
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« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2014, 07:15:02 PM »

(i.e. not thoroughly Byzantinized)

Well, aside from their odd use of vestments when the Bishop is visiting and what-not.
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« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2014, 08:59:38 PM »

I like the blue chasuble. It's beautiful.

Ugh.  I just lost a little respect for you.   Tongue

Quote
Statues are not traditionally to be used liturgically. Nothing wrong with them otherwise but IMO they shouldn't have any liturgical function.

Let me know when your Church stops carrying icons in procession on the Sunday of Orthodoxy and other times. 
His chasuble here is much nicer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Bwqy5ycQcs


I wonder why his zucchetto isn't black.
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« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2014, 09:25:51 PM »

His chasuble here is much nicer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Bwqy5ycQcs


I wonder why his zucchetto isn't black.


I'll forgive him, those vestments are much nicer.  Smiley
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« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2014, 09:32:17 PM »

Quote
If they are not communing baptised and chrismated members until they reach "the age of reason", however, or if some other non-Orthodox practice is going on, that's another matter entirely.  I just don't think this is worth fussing over, unless we're going to be fair and fuss over our own "cultural compromises" with the same consistency.    

The fact that communion is mentioned at all in the caption to the photograph should be plenty cause for concern. Moreover, the age at which confession is considered as appropriate for children is not a "cause for celebration", but a quiet, circumspect and private matter. Turning it into an ersatz version of western confirmation does nobody any favors.

Quote
If a Byzantine rite church ought to look like a Byzantine rite church, why shouldn't a Western rite church look Western?  What else is it supposed to look like?  

Please read my posts carefully. There is far more to my objection than the mere "esthetics" of the church in question. There are also other elements in the photographs which I found objectionable, but on which I did not initially comment, such as the presence of vases of flowers on the altar. Pretty, but they have no place there, just as microphones and other non-liturgical items have no place on the Holy Table, items which, unfortunately, are all too prevalent these days in many a "byzantine" Orthodox church (to use your terminology).

I hold to no double standard.

I'll also mention that I have attended, and, in some cases, been closely involved, with parishes whose services are conducted in buildings or spaces which were not purpose-built Orthodox churches. Yet, whether in a previously heterodox church, or a simple room or shed, I had no qualms about such circumstances. What was far more important was that things were done properly.

Quote
Moreover, to comment on the use of "icons" as giving "an Orthodox gloss" to the worship space is also insulting to icons--as if they exist exclusively as ecclesiastical cosmetics or cultural ornament--and is surprising coming from someone like yourself, with your vast knowledge about and reverence for icons.  

Another incomprehensible and strange comment coming from you.  Huh Huh

It is precisely my love and reverence for icons which prompted me to post as I did. In my time on this forum, I have not ceased to drive home the fact that icons are not mere "religious art", but something far more profound and holy. However, when I see pictures of a WRO parish which pays such great attention to maintaining Hispanic culture, including conducting processions of post-schism Marian statues which are outside Orthodox tradition, both on the origin of the statue, and in the absence of a liturgical tradition within Orthodoxy of venerating statues and their liturgical commemoration, am I not justified in saying what I did?
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« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2014, 09:43:53 PM »

such as the presence of vases of flowers on the altar. Pretty, but they have no place there

Aren't flowers on altars a semi-regular occurrence in various (even if non-Byzantine) traditions?
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« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2014, 09:54:53 PM »

such as the presence of vases of flowers on the altar. Pretty, but they have no place there

Aren't flowers on altars a semi-regular occurrence in various (even if non-Byzantine) traditions?

They shouldn't be. The Holy Table should only bear liturgical items (blessing crosses, liturgical Gospel, Eucharistic vessels and objects, the sepulcher containing the reserved Gifts, altarcloths, and the like). What liturgical function do flowers have?
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« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2014, 10:11:20 PM »

such as the presence of vases of flowers on the altar. Pretty, but they have no place there

Aren't flowers on altars a semi-regular occurrence in various (even if non-Byzantine) traditions?

They shouldn't be. The Holy Table should only bear liturgical items (blessing crosses, liturgical Gospel, Eucharistic vessels and objects, the sepulcher containing the reserved Gifts, altarcloths, and the like). What liturgical function do flowers have?

Well, it seems that in the Latin tradition there are traditionally specific places around the altar (e.g. on the raised tiers, where reliquaries are also often kept) that flowers are to be placed. Someone else more knowledgeable in the Latin Rite may clarify, since I'm not terribly well-versed in it.

Besides, which pictures of the WR church in question do you object to? If the ones in my OP, they're actually on small tables right next to the altar, rather than the altar table itself. If you look at the video it shows the tables more clearly, although there are just candles on them instead of flowers in it.
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« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2014, 12:06:22 AM »

The fact that communion is mentioned at all in the caption to the photograph should be plenty cause for concern. Moreover, the age at which confession is considered as appropriate for children is not a "cause for celebration", but a quiet, circumspect and private matter. Turning it into an ersatz version of western confirmation does nobody any favors.

LBK,

Unless you know something I don't know, we are both working from assumptions based on a parish website.  Because of that, I'm not ready to uncritically praise or dismiss anything. 

I'm not concerned that Communion was mentioned at all.  It appears that this is a WRO parish ministering to a Spanish speaking community in Miami, FL.  In such cultures, influenced as they are by Roman Catholicism, such celebrations are common, and the absence of them would be unthinkable.  What is the proper response as a Church to this pastoral issue?  To kill that aspect of their culture?  I suspect, were the Church to try this, that the people would just do it on their own time, and the Church would be left out of that part of her members' lives.  Should we send them back to Roman Catholicism?  Were we to do that, we could not call ourselves the Church.  Or ought we to "baptise" that custom as far as possible and bring it into the local Church?  I lean toward this solution...to let the light of Christ illumine all. 

Again, if we discovered that they are withholding Communion from children until they reach a certain age, then I would be concerned.  But right now, I'm not sure we have reason to suspect this.   

Regarding first confession as a "quiet, circumspect, and private matter", I'm not sure I agree.  You might feel that way, and I might agree, but that's not the only way it has to be. 

Quote
Please read my posts carefully. There is far more to my objection than the mere "esthetics" of the church in question. There are also other elements in the photographs which I found objectionable, but on which I did not initially comment, such as the presence of vases of flowers on the altar. Pretty, but they have no place there, just as microphones and other non-liturgical items have no place on the Holy Table, items which, unfortunately, are all too prevalent these days in many a "byzantine" Orthodox church (to use your terminology).

I haven't examined the photos to see if the altar in this church has gradines.  Usually flowers, relics, candles, etc. are placed here.  But let's assume it's a small space and they don't have gradines: even so, flowers are enough a part of Western liturgical tradition that there are rubrics governing the days and seasons when the altar is not to be adorned with them.  If this community is maintaining continuity with such traditions as best they can in their local circumstances, I can't fault them for that. 

While it's not ideal to have a cluttered mensa, the Western Christians are usually much better about this than the Eastern Christians.     

Quote
I hold to no double standard.

I'll also mention that I have attended, and, in some cases, been closely involved, with parishes whose services are conducted in buildings or spaces which were not purpose-built Orthodox churches. Yet, whether in a previously heterodox church, or a simple room or shed, I had no qualms about such circumstances. What was far more important was that things were done properly.

I agree, what is most important is that things are done properly.  In the case of this parish, the standard for "doing things properly" is traditional Western liturgical custom as practiced in the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America.  That's why I'm not too concerned about "First Confession", but I do wonder why ripidia with bells (about as OO as it gets) are being used in a Roman rite Mass.   

Quote
It is precisely my love and reverence for icons which prompted me to post as I did. In my time on this forum, I have not ceased to drive home the fact that icons are not mere "religious art", but something far more profound and holy. However, when I see pictures of a WRO parish which pays such great attention to maintaining Hispanic culture, including conducting processions of post-schism Marian statues which are outside Orthodox tradition, both on the origin of the statue, and in the absence of a liturgical tradition within Orthodoxy of venerating statues and their liturgical commemoration, am I not justified in saying what I did?

With more information, you might be justified, but I don't know that we are there yet.  We know this is a Western rite parish (in a canonical EO diocese) and we know its members are mostly of Hispanic origin and Spanish speaking.  We can reasonably expect it's not going to look like a Ukrainian church, so our standards for judging what is and is not proper have to be different from the start. 

Regarding statues in general, I'm not sure I accept the arguments against them.  This was discussed in another thread several months ago: I didn't really agree with the arguments made in that thread against statues, and at least some of my questions went unanswered.  But not only can we assume that the use of statues in this parish is with the blessing of the local bishop, but Nephi posted a quote from an official archdiocesan publication which claims the original statue, of which the statue in question here is a copy, "originated in fourth century North Africa, in the Oratory of Saint Augustine".  Now, if that's erroneous, let's talk about that.  But if it's not, the statue predates the third ecumenical council: most of the icons in the Orthodox world with a particular devotion associated with them are much more recent than that.       
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« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2014, 01:45:10 AM »

It must be a pan-Orthodox Western Rite with some Coptic parishioners probably due to Coptic-Orthodox intermarriages.

I have seen First Confession ceremonies in the OCA and in the Greek Orthodox Church.
Don't forget that there are a lot of inter-faith marriages between Roman Catholics & Orthodox.
Increasingly, more Roman Catholics are allowed to be godparents at Orthodox Baptisms in the Antiochian, Greek, and OCA parishes.  I have witnessed these ceremonies.

Quote from: Mor Ephrem
I agree, what is most important is that things are done properly.  In the case of this parish, the standard for "doing things properly" is traditional Western liturgical custom as practiced in the Antiochian Archdiocese of North America.  That's why I'm not too concerned about "First Confession", but I do wonder why ripidia with bells (about as OO as it gets) are being used in a Roman rite Mass.
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« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2014, 01:48:01 AM »

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Don't forget that there are a lot of inter-faith marriages between Roman Catholics & Orthodox.

How does this affect Orthodox liturgical practice? More to the point, why should it affect Orthodox liturgical practice?
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« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2014, 01:51:47 AM »

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Don't forget that there are a lot of inter-faith marriages between Roman Catholics & Orthodox.

How does this affect Orthodox liturgical practice? More to the point, why should it affect Orthodox liturgical practice?

Well, I have heard some of the "Roman Catholic godparents" say that they are going to take their godchild to the Catholic Church for their First Confession and First Communion. And then we tell this RC Godparent that the child has just received Baptism, Chrismation, and First Holy Communion as an Orthodox Christian. And their response: "Well they should still participate in the First Communion Ceremony, like a coming of age ceremony."   Shocked

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2014, 01:54:17 AM »

Quote
Don't forget that there are a lot of inter-faith marriages between Roman Catholics & Orthodox.

How does this affect Orthodox liturgical practice? More to the point, why should it affect Orthodox liturgical practice?

Well, I have heard some of the "Roman Catholic godparents" say that they are going to take their godchild to the Catholic Church for their First Confession and First Communion. And then we tell this RC Godparent that the child has just received Baptism, Chrismation, and First Holy Communion as an Orthodox Christian. And their response: "Well they should still participate in the First Communion Ceremony, like a coming of age ceremony."   Shocked

 Roll Eyes

Which has precisely no bearing on proper Orthodox liturgical practice, and neither should it. The honest ignorance of certain people should never trump what is right and proper.
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« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2014, 02:44:48 AM »

Quote
Don't forget that there are a lot of inter-faith marriages between Roman Catholics & Orthodox.

How does this affect Orthodox liturgical practice? More to the point, why should it affect Orthodox liturgical practice?

Well, I have heard some of the "Roman Catholic godparents" say that they are going to take their godchild to the Catholic Church for their First Confession and First Communion. And then we tell this RC Godparent that the child has just received Baptism, Chrismation, and First Holy Communion as an Orthodox Christian. And their response: "Well they should still participate in the First Communion Ceremony, like a coming of age ceremony."   Shocked

 Roll Eyes

Which has precisely no bearing on proper Orthodox liturgical practice, and neither should it. The honest ignorance of certain people should never trump what is right and proper.

We all have our views, and my ideals are as medieval as the next fellows, but I have to admit that perhaps economy or relaxation is sometimes necessary.

LBK, after all that 18th c. baroque spanish style from Our Lady of Regla, does not the Lamb of God portrayal in an early medieval latin churches seem a bit more palatable?



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« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2014, 02:56:35 AM »

Quote
Don't forget that there are a lot of inter-faith marriages between Roman Catholics & Orthodox.

How does this affect Orthodox liturgical practice? More to the point, why should it affect Orthodox liturgical practice?

Well, I have heard some of the "Roman Catholic godparents" say that they are going to take their godchild to the Catholic Church for their First Confession and First Communion. And then we tell this RC Godparent that the child has just received Baptism, Chrismation, and First Holy Communion as an Orthodox Christian. And their response: "Well they should still participate in the First Communion Ceremony, like a coming of age ceremony."   Shocked

 Roll Eyes

Which has precisely no bearing on proper Orthodox liturgical practice, and neither should it. The honest ignorance of certain people should never trump what is right and proper.

LBK, after all that 18th c. baroque spanish style from Our Lady of Regla, does not the Lamb of God portrayal in an early medieval latin churches seem a bit more palatable?

If such post-date the Quinisext Council of 692 where the lamb as a representation of Christ was explicitly proscribed (and the tenor of Canon 82 also proscribes any symbolic, metaphysical or imaginary portrayal of the second person of the Holy Trinity), then, no, such a portrayal is not acceptable. Its presence in churches of earlier vintage can be seen for what it is - an image which the Church knows to be deficient, but placed in them at a time prior to its clear and unequivocal proscription.
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« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2014, 03:01:13 AM »


http://www.metmuseum.org/exhibitions/view?exhibitionId={0CEDC8EE-3623-4075-AABF-7518259E37E2}&oid=478630&pg=1&rpp=20&pos=12&ft=*

Date:
    before 1022

Culture:
    German (Hildesheim)
Medium:
    Gold on linden wood core, filigree, and precious and semiprecious stones

With evidence such as this, I'm willing to concede that there may be a place for statues, and better yet - golden reliquaries that look like statues - in the western rite. I'm not a historical revisionist, and I know statues were rare and extra special, definitely emerging in northern carolingian europe long before southern states as italy and spain, but emerge they did. There are enough late 10th century examples from germany that I dont pretend they can be ignored, as much as they may be disliked or be disharmonious with eastern tradition.

The upside is that the earliest statues are often not as naturalistic as the later and have a certain compatiabilit with the hieratic mystical art of the late antique romanesque and medieval byzantine eras.
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« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2014, 03:06:53 AM »

Quote
The Western Church never recognized the 102 disciplinary canons of this council, although later statements by some of the bishops of Rome, notably Popes Constantine and Hadrian I, seem to show an acceptance that could be summed up as expressed by Pope John VII: that he accepted all those canons which did not contradict the true faith, good morals, and decrees of Rome. The Orthodox Churches consider this council as ecumenical and adds its canons to the decrees of the Fifth and Sixth Councils.

Many of the canons were reiterations of previously passed canons. However, most of the new canons exhibited an inimical attitude towards churches not in disciplinary accord with Constantinople, especially the Western Churches. Their customs are anathematized and "every little detail of difference is remembered to be condemned"

I wonder what the old Orthodox Pope John VII would have said to you about that, LBK.
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« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2014, 03:08:15 AM »


http://www.metmuseum.org/exhibitions/view?exhibitionId={0CEDC8EE-3623-4075-AABF-7518259E37E2}&oid=478630&pg=1&rpp=20&pos=12&ft=*

Date:
    before 1022

Culture:
    German (Hildesheim)
Medium:
    Gold on linden wood core, filigree, and precious and semiprecious stones

With evidence such as this, I'm willing to concede that there may be a place for statues, and better yet - golden reliquaries that look like statues - in the western rite. I'm not a historical revisionist, and I know statues were rare and extra special, definitely emerging in northern carolingian europe long before southern states as italy and spain, but emerge they did. There are enough late 10th century examples from germany that I dont pretend they can be ignored, as much as they may be disliked or be disharmonious with eastern tradition.

The upside is that the earliest statues are often not as naturalistic as the later and have a certain compatiabilit with the hieratic mystical art of the late antique romanesque and medieval byzantine eras.

As much as you yearn for it to be so, Orthodoxy simply never held statues in any regard as venerable objects. Nowhere in the writings of iconodule and iconoclast alike is there any mention of statues (as distinct from bas-reliefs) as objects of veneration. Surely the iconoclasts would have railed against statues as virulently as they did against icons. Yet they did not, because only icons were used for veneration and liturgical use.

The existence of a tiny number of early religious statues does not a tradition make.
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« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2014, 03:16:03 AM »

I could care less for statues (not to say I dislike them). But I can not undo the decision of my ancestors...to a certain extent I accept what is and live with it, therefore if they are there and symbolize an important saint, I'm obliged to venerate them as would anyone else. I like the western rite of orthodoxy because it has less and often no statues, but I recognize and respect some exceptions. I prefer images over statues personally. yet a parish, like a culture, it is a delicate thing, it can only take so much change.

I trust that God allowed these statues to be there, despite my own limited interest in that form of expression.
I do not think I can "play God".
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« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2014, 03:17:07 AM »

Quote
The Western Church never recognized the 102 disciplinary canons of this council, although later statements by some of the bishops of Rome, notably Popes Constantine and Hadrian I, seem to show an acceptance that could be summed up as expressed by Pope John VII: that he accepted all those canons which did not contradict the true faith, good morals, and decrees of Rome. The Orthodox Churches consider this council as ecumenical and adds its canons to the decrees of the Fifth and Sixth Councils.

I wonder what the old Orthodox Pope John VII would have said to you about that, LBK.

Does not the church of Rome accept the Quinisext Council? If it does, it's blithely ignored Canon 82, which sowed the seeds of the eventual estrangement of western religious art with the traditions, liturgical and canonical, of iconography.

I stand by what I write on iconography, even if it causes discomfort to some.
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« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2014, 03:23:08 AM »

I admit more canons on images (and statues) is needed in the west. The degree of variety that exists within it is a bit overwhelming, there has been far too much individual innovation from particular artists.  Trullo's iconography canons are generally good. I only think/wish an exception could be made in its strictness against newly made images of the Agnus Dei, within the Latin rite only. To a certain extent I believe it was an unfortunate turn of history that the latin church deviated in it's art and architecture from it's old roman/syrian/hellenic roots. Some will say gothic architecture is great, and uniquely western. I sympathize with this view. Perhaps..but perhaps also it reflects some purely carolingian scholastic cultural ideas. Gothic architecture never totally dominated Italy, so at least Italy is truer to it's roots in fresco and mosaic.

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« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2014, 03:24:57 AM »

I could care less for statues (not to say I dislike them). But I can not undo the decision of my ancestors...to a certain extent I accept what is and live with it. I like the western rite of orthodoxy because it has less and often no statues, but I recognize and respect some exceptions. A parish is a delicate thing, it can only take so much change.

I trust that God allowed these statues to be there, despite my own limited interest in that form of expression.
I do not think I can "play God".


Nobody can undo the errors of our ancestors, and many were made in genuine and honest ignorance. However, when we have the knowledge of what is true and proper, pleading "cultural ties" is a hollow argument for the perpetuation of error.

Do not think that I am unaware of the power of sentimental ties with what is familiar. Over the years, I have spent much time and effort in educating individuals and groups (including clergy  Shocked ) on the whys and wherefores of proper iconography. I have even been approached by iconographers for advice. It takes much time, effort and patience, but changing hearts and minds is not impossible. Difficult, but not impossible.
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« Reply #44 on: March 28, 2014, 03:29:44 AM »

Does not the church of Rome accept the Quinisext Council?

It's my understanding that the Church of Rome never accepted Trullo etc., and those few Western individuals/churches that were favorable toward it were just that - few, and temporary.
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