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Poll
Question: Are you going to see the new Noah movie that comes out on Friday?
Yes. Can't wait! - 6 (14.6%)
Yes, but not sure I'll like it. - 5 (12.2%)
Yes, though I am pretty sure I will disapprove of the way the story is done. - 3 (7.3%)
No, it looks stupid. - 8 (19.5%)
No. It looks blasphemous and typical Hollywood nonsense. - 15 (36.6%)
Other (explain if you wish) - 4 (9.8%)
Total Voters: 41

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« Reply #45 on: April 01, 2014, 03:32:58 PM »

A man on the radio was talking about it.  All he talked about were the rock monsters.
Not monsters, fallen angels trapped in rock bodies as punishment for descending to Earth.  Think Nephilim meets the Thing.
I was hoping The Fantastic 4 would make it back to the big screen.
2015...2015.
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« Reply #46 on: April 02, 2014, 03:02:11 PM »


So, I was made aware of this review:

http://themattwalshblog.com/2014/03/29/im-a-christian-and-i-think-noah-deserves-a-four-star-review/

I am now not so sure I am willing to dish out the cash to go see it.

I was hoping for something edifying.....bummer.

Thanks for the reference--great review. This caught my eye:

"The Bad Guys attack Noah, not realizing that he’s a vegan Martial Arts master. Noah proceeds to kick some serious butt, leaving all of the Bad Guys bleeding on the ground.

One of them looks up at him in awe and terror. “What do you want?”

“Justice,” Noah growls with a determined gaze.

I was expecting him to then whisper, “I’m Batman,” and disappear, but I realized that superhero movies wouldn’t have dialogue nearly so clichéd as this embarrassing farce.

At any rate, Noah wants justice. Of course, this is coming from the same dude who will spend the rest of the movie contemplating murder-suicide and threatening to stab babies in the face.

But, hey, nobody’s perfect."

So, Noah/Maximos/Gorebot all in one package. Joy! /s
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« Reply #47 on: April 02, 2014, 03:36:59 PM »


So, I was made aware of this review:

http://themattwalshblog.com/2014/03/29/im-a-christian-and-i-think-noah-deserves-a-four-star-review/

I am now not so sure I am willing to dish out the cash to go see it.

I was hoping for something edifying.....bummer.

A link at the bottom of the page led me to this other review.

After reading that, I'm still not sure if I want to see the film but it has certainly piqued my interest.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 03:38:22 PM by Hawkeye » Logged

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« Reply #48 on: April 02, 2014, 03:42:09 PM »

A man on the radio was talking about it.  All he talked about were the rock monsters.
Not monsters, fallen angels trapped in rock bodies as punishment for descending to Earth.  Think Nephilim meets the Thing.
I was hoping The Fantastic 4 would make it back to the big screen.

A friend described it as Titanic meets the Day after Tomorrow with cooler CGI...
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« Reply #49 on: April 03, 2014, 02:10:56 PM »

Stephen Greydanus (warning: he's Catholic!  Shocked ) has one of the best reviews of Noah.
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« Reply #50 on: April 03, 2014, 02:42:01 PM »

Eastern Orthodox film critic Peter Chattaway has not one, but two reviews of Noah.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 02:47:39 PM by Jetavan » Logged

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« Reply #51 on: April 03, 2014, 02:49:58 PM »

....
A link at the bottom of the page led me to this other review.
Chattaway responds.
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« Reply #52 on: April 09, 2014, 02:35:57 AM »

Eastern Orthodox film critic Peter Chattaway has not one, but two reviews of Noah.
Chattaway likes the movie, and the Biblical theme is fun, but unfortunately as a critic he undermines his review:

Quote
Thanks to a lengthy blog post by Brian Mattson, a theologian with the the Center for Cultural Leadership in California, the latest meme to work its way into public discussion of Darren Aronofsky’s Noah is that the film is somehow Gnostic, and that it presents a worldview in which God is really Satan and vice versa.

Is there anything to Mattson’s claims? Not really, and here’s why.

First, like a lot of successfully misleading claims, Mattson’s has a fair bit of truth. And one of the key truths he elucidates is that Noah, like other Aronofsky films, borrows some of its ideas from a form of Jewish mysticism known as Kabbalah.

Aronofsky told them he had turned to a number of extrabiblical Jewish sources for narrative material, “including the Zohar,” a key Kabbalistic text.

His main rebuttal to Mattson is partly:
Quote
He also doesn’t address the fact that many of the Kabbalistic elements he finds so sinister have their counterparts in Christian thought, especially perhaps in the Eastern churches. (Full disclosure: I’m an Eastern Orthodox communicant myself.)
Chattway is not all wrong- Kabbalah says that Abel's descendants were the "good side", according to Chattway, while the movie says that the good side came from Seth, which Chattway considers a common view.

Although Mattson is Protestant and Chattway is Orthodox, it looks like Mattson's review is more in keeping with what we would expect from an Orthodox writer.

Quote
where Mattson really goes off the rails is in his simple identification of Kabbalah as a Jewish form of Gnosticism.
Correct me if I am wrong, but while Kabbalah is not one of the ancient Gnostic mystery schools, it has a similarity in that they were about secret knowledge. There are restrictions on who is allowed to learn Kabbalah even within the rabbinical community, and views about it are sometimes controversial even there.

The only other thing Chattway equates with Orthodox elements are the idea of the fallen angels' redemption, proposed by St. Gregory of Nyssa. But that is not enough I think to show that "many of" the movie's unusual elements are shared with Eastern Orthodoxy.

Mattson explains:
Quote
The world of Gnostic mysticism is bewildering with a myriad of varieties. But, generally speaking, they hold in common that the serpent is “Sophia,” “Mother,” or “Wisdom.” The serpent represents the true divine, and the claims of “The Creator” are false. It is not God that commissions them to now multiply and fill the earth, but Noah, in the first person, “I,” wearing the serpent talisman.
http://www.aleteia.org/en/arts-entertainment/aggregated-content/the-secret-gnostic-key-to-aronofskys-noah-that-everyone-missed-5237320601042944
Maybe Mattson is being too judgmental, but I would recommend readers look at both Mattson's article as well as Chattway's.

They agree that Aranofsky is basing the movie on Kabbalah, and Mattson finds this troubling and reads into it ideas that contradict Christianity, while Chattway tries to read into them ideas that don't contradict it.

Chattway's view is that the snakeskin reminds them of the pure creation that was lost. However, why is the snakeskin the only thing that should do this, an object associated with a creature that itself went astray? Granted, as Chattway says, it portrays the eating of the fruit based on the snake's instruction negatively, as it is later that Cain kills Abel.
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« Reply #53 on: April 10, 2014, 01:55:45 PM »

....
Chattway's view is that the snakeskin reminds them of the pure creation that was lost. However, why is the snakeskin the only thing that should do this, an object associated with a creature that itself went astray?
Jesus Himself compared himself to a serpent (John 3:14). It's makes perfect sense that the creature that went astray, is the same creature who saves.
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« Reply #54 on: April 10, 2014, 02:46:33 PM »

....
Chattway's view is that the snakeskin reminds them of the pure creation that was lost. However, why is the snakeskin the only thing that should do this, an object associated with a creature that itself went astray?
Jesus Himself compared himself to a serpent (John 3:14). It's makes perfect sense that the creature that went astray, is the same creature who saves.
And Paul said to be clever like a snake and also merciful like a dove, as I remember.
Nonetheless, Jesus did not actually say that he would be like a snake, but rather treated like one- lifted up like Moses' snake.

The fact is, the serpent is often seen as a bad creature, like in Psalm 90-92. Thus, I think one has to be strict and sharp about how one uses these kinds of analogies. After all, the snake is a dangerous creature. One kind in Vietnam can kill you within a few minutes.

The creature that saves is often seen as a sheep or lamb or ram, as the atonement rituals reflect. This is not to say that the snake can have no relation to what happens in salvation. The lifting up of the snake can mean the treatment given to the snake- not that the snake is an animal that saves. I could go into more detail about this, but just want to leave you with the underlined part, just as the snake is a dangerous creature.

I would say the same thing about Kabbalah. There is a warning against strange fire, and those rabbis themselves who used it restricted reading of the Kabbalah.
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« Reply #55 on: April 10, 2014, 02:54:17 PM »

....
Chattway's view is that the snakeskin reminds them of the pure creation that was lost. However, why is the snakeskin the only thing that should do this, an object associated with a creature that itself went astray?
Jesus Himself compared himself to a serpent (John 3:14). It's makes perfect sense that the creature that went astray, is the same creature who saves.
After all, the snake is a dangerous creature. One kind in Vietnam can kill you within a few minutes.
And the venom that kills, is the venom that can save.




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« Reply #56 on: April 10, 2014, 04:13:40 PM »

....
Chattway's view is that the snakeskin reminds them of the pure creation that was lost. However, why is the snakeskin the only thing that should do this, an object associated with a creature that itself went astray?
Jesus Himself compared himself to a serpent (John 3:14). It's makes perfect sense that the creature that went astray, is the same creature who saves.
After all, the snake is a dangerous creature. One kind in Vietnam can kill you within a few minutes.
And the venom that kills, is the venom that can save.
Again, you are right that a snake is related to improvement and overcoming, but people have to be very careful with this kind of thinking.

Wikipedia on antivenom:
Quote
Antivenom is created by milking venom from the desired snake, spider or insect. The venom is then diluted and injected into a horse, sheep, rabbit, or goat. The subject animal will undergo an immune response to the venom, producing antibodies against the venom's active molecule which can then be harvested from the animal's blood and used to treat envenomation.

So directly speaking, you are wrong. The same venom that poisons you does not directly save you from poison.

Rather, another creature's reaction against that venom can be used to save you.

I am not ruling out that anything in Kabballah can be found helpful, but for Orthodox, it is "strange fire" and one should be wary, very careful, strict and cautious with this fire.
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« Reply #57 on: April 10, 2014, 04:22:10 PM »

....
Again, you are right that a snake is related to improvement and overcoming, but people have to be very careful with this kind of thinking.

Wikipedia on antivenom:
....
So directly speaking, you are wrong. The same venom that poisons you does not directly save you from poison.

Rather, another creature's reaction against that venom can be used to save you.
....
Actually, I was referring not to anti-venom, but to medicines (like eptifibatide and tirofiban) derived from snake venom, which could treat heart attacks, brain injuries, cancer, and strokes.

I only recommend Kabbalah to the over-40 set.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 04:23:11 PM by Jetavan » Logged

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« Reply #58 on: April 10, 2014, 04:55:38 PM »

....
Again, you are right that a snake is related to improvement and overcoming, but people have to be very careful with this kind of thinking.

Wikipedia on antivenom:
....
So directly speaking, you are wrong. The same venom that poisons you does not directly save you from poison.

Rather, another creature's reaction against that venom can be used to save you.
....
Actually, I was referring not to anti-venom, but to medicines (like eptifibatide and tirofiban) derived from snake venom, which could treat heart attacks, brain injuries, cancer, and strokes.
Yes, I know you were, brother. However that line of reasoning is actually weaker.

Your point was that the venom that infects you also saves you and you were analogizing this to the idea of suffering from the effects of sin and being saved from sin. If one were to follow that analogy, it would be that one is suffering from the effects of venom and the venom saves the person from the venom.

That is, in your analogy, the effects of sin were being compared to the illness from venom, and you were proposing that one would be saved from sin in an analogy to salvation from the illness from venom.

I know your follow up example was about illness from cancer, heart disease, etc, but those do not match your proposition.

You can't say Look, the same venom that hurts you saves you, so the snakes save you, as the analogy is mismatched. At best, one can come across related ideas, like the apostles handling snakes as a sign of protection.

Quote
I only recommend Kabbalah to the over-40 set.
Personally, I don't agree with restricting Kabballah in that way based on age. I just think one must be very cautious with it. Personally, I am skeptical about its claim to authenticity as an ancient school of thought, although I think it naturally does have some roots in ancient mysticism. Alot must be done to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Let's give an example- one way it might be helpful is that some descriptions about God do sound reminiscient of Christianity. But I would just be careful with this for several reasons. I think the Talmud is a much easier book to use, as are the writings of rabbis like Maimonides. But again, care must be used there too.

Peace.
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« Reply #59 on: April 10, 2014, 06:16:29 PM »

....
You can't say Look, the same venom that hurts you saves you, so the snakes save you, as the analogy is mismatched. At best, one can come across related ideas, like the apostles handling snakes as a sign of protection.
....
On the other hand, the original meaning of "seraphim" -- heavenly creatures near the Throne of God, seen in Isaiah's vision, and deemed angelic in the Book of Enoch -- was "serpents".
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 06:17:27 PM by Jetavan » Logged

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« Reply #60 on: April 10, 2014, 07:00:17 PM »

I voted "other", I simply do not make movies my priority any longer, I prefer to read books.

I think that the world has been negatively affected by hollywood. And I am guilty too, but it seems life is often defined according to hollywood movies or television, I have tried to eliminate that from my life, I no longer have a tv at home. I watch movies with others sometimes .
I feel that reading allows much more understanding, although I have always enjoyed movies about the Bible.

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« Reply #61 on: April 10, 2014, 07:13:18 PM »

I came across a website claiming that the cross is an occult symbol connected with serpentry going back to Egypt and pagan cultures and Azazel and the snake in the desert. It then connected this with the Templars, the modern Red Cross, and the Rosicrusians. It was as if the cross and the snake and false gods are the fundamental idea and passed down into Christianity.

This proposed claim though is too loose a connection though to believe. Just because the Greeks had a snake symbol does not mean they automatically took all the properties of the snake symbol from another culture. I also had a tough time following their logic about how Azazel should be considered a snake deity when other sources associated it instead with a goat deity like the god Pan.
(www.scribd.com/doc/62144636/The-Red-Cross-of-Azazel)

Nonetheless, Jetavan, if you are going to make this argument that the Red Cross organization's symbol is an occult symbol, I would love to debate you on it in a friendly way on Debate.org.

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« Reply #62 on: April 10, 2014, 07:30:43 PM »

Quote
When Adam and Eve are expelled from the Garden, it says God gave them a garment of skin—sort of a parting gift from God to mankind as we leave Eden and go out into the world. So we wondered what that was—and as we looked at commentaries about it, one of the common ones was that it was the skin of the snake. We wondered why that would be, and it occurred to us that God made the snake. The snake was good, at first. But then, the Tempter arose through it. In our version, we have the snake shed that skin, and the shed skin is the shell of original goodness that the snake left behind when it became the Tempter. It’s a symbol of the Eden that we left behind. It’s a garment to clothe you spiritually.
Read more at http://www.relevantmagazine.com/culture/noah%E2%80%99s-co-writer-explains-film%E2%80%99s-controversial-theology#ug6v8PFW2PlkkMzU.99
Don't you think that being given a garment of skin might refer to their normal skin after they were supposedly light beings?
Is the snake that large that the snake's skin would wrap around their bodies as clothes? It would have to be an anaconda or something.

Quote
he part with the snakeskin tefillin was clearly a Gnostic appraisal of God. The snakeskin was clearly supposed to represent the “wisdom” of the serpent, as if the wisdom was actually good, and even the righteous people, the descendants of Seth, were accepting it. The director of the movie has had Gnostic symbolism in other movies, and the glowing magic snakeskin tefilllin on Antonio Banderas (who played Noah’s dad) was so blatant
http://bltnotjustasandwich.com/2014/03/29/noah-a-rabbis-review/
Yes. It says that the snake was the wiliest creature in the Garden. In its purer state, the animal is related to cleverness but not in a bad way. Naturally, Noah could have put on other things from the garden, but in this case the movie writer chose something related to cleverness.

It is the writer's own idea that that garment would be from a snake. Why did he pick the snake?
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« Reply #63 on: April 10, 2014, 07:33:28 PM »

Quote
in the Gnostics, it's not the bad guy. It represents knowledge.

[Mitch] That's right.

[Darris] Sophia.

[Mitch] Sophia. The serpent is called Sophia, which is wisdom, and this whole snake skin ceremony represents that. Spoiler alert – at the end of the movie, you know, Noah's all drunk on the beach, he's naked, he hasn't reconciled with his family after trying to kill his grandchildren, but then he gets this snake skin back, and suddenly everything's good. So there's a clear transition here from you know, angry Noah, who is trying to follow this creator god, and he's becoming more violent, into good Noah, who's got this snake skin, because he's got love and mercy, things that the creator doesn't have.
http://www.ucg.org/beyond-today-daily/bible/noah-movie-diving-deep
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« Reply #64 on: April 12, 2014, 06:31:08 PM »

Nonetheless, Jetavan, if you are going to make this argument that the Red Cross organization's symbol is an occult symbol, I would love to debate you on it in a friendly way on Debate.org.
In the Indus Valley culture, the cross symbol was a version of the swastika (which in Indian cultures is a sign of goodness).



In any event, I have to stick up for my friend, the snake. The snake is not a traditional biblical symbol for godliness, but a closer look at the Bible reveals that the snake's apparently irredeemably bad reputation is probably not justified.

After the service, our younger daughter, Laura, had said, "Didn't you see what that woman was drawing with her hands?"
"Where?" we asked.
"In the wood," Laura said. "She was drawing a cross with a snake wrapped around it."
-- Dennis Covington, Salvation on Sand Mountain: Snake Handling and Redemption in Southern Appalachia
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« Reply #65 on: April 12, 2014, 06:39:19 PM »

Come on, Jetavan. You know you want to do the debate with me.

All said, I think it's interesting discuss the role of the serpent, because it looks like there can be more going, with seemingly strange things like the snakes in the desert and on the staff and in the garden and in poetry.
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« Reply #66 on: April 13, 2014, 01:30:31 AM »

out come the animals, two by two; 'Be fruitful and multiply'. then the snakes come out and are very despondent. 'But Mr. Noah, we can't.'
'Can't; can't what?' 'Multiply, Mr. Noah'  'Well, why not?' 'well we're adders.'
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« Reply #67 on: April 13, 2014, 01:36:36 AM »

@ jet. and Rak. symbols look good; but I'd better not put them on the Paschal prosphora I'll be baking later in the week. (How do you spell 'anathema' anyway? - isn't that the plural form?)
Best I stick with the IC XC   NI KA seal
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kyrie eleison
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« Reply #68 on: April 13, 2014, 01:41:16 AM »

and in any case; the Red Cross symbol is just the colour reversed image of the Swiss flag - since Switzerland is where it is based - well, originally.
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« Reply #69 on: April 13, 2014, 03:36:52 PM »

I asked my spiritual father if I could see the new movie "Son of God" and he said to read the Bible instead  laugh so I'm sure his reaction will be the same with this.
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« Reply #70 on: April 13, 2014, 06:31:14 PM »

I asked my spiritual father if I could see the new movie "Son of God" and he said to read the Bible instead  laugh so I'm sure his reaction will be the same with this.

Since you're looking into monasticism, that makes sense.
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« Reply #71 on: April 13, 2014, 09:54:08 PM »

out come the animals, two by two; 'Be fruitful and multiply'. then the snakes come out and are very despondent. 'But Mr. Noah, we can't.'
'Can't; can't what?' 'Multiply, Mr. Noah'  'Well, why not?' 'well we're adders.'

Haha Lol
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« Reply #72 on: April 13, 2014, 10:31:03 PM »

and in any case; the Red Cross symbol is just the colour reversed image of the Swiss flag - since Switzerland is where it is based - well, originally.
I am able to argue either way on that question, but it gets into conspiracy theory territory.
The knights templar had the same flag - an equal lengthed red cross on white background, and France cracked down on them. Switzerland was a conveniently located place for them to go, and the Swiss were not persecuting them. Meanwhile, switzerland, including afterwards began to grow and in some ways became what the Templars were - a force somewhat independent of other governments and also quite wealthy in commerce and finance - a way in which the Templars excelled. This is a bit strange for a country in that geography, as mountains are less a place of finance and commerce than ports would be. It was some time after the creation of the Knights Templar I believe that Switzerland took on its flag.

However I am not making a solid conclusion that the ICRC is "Templar" either.
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« Reply #73 on: April 13, 2014, 10:35:10 PM »

I have to stick up for my friend, the snake.

We are still keeping an eye on you in the matter related to whether you are a witch. Tread lightly here...
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« Reply #74 on: April 13, 2014, 10:53:11 PM »

I have to stick up for my friend, the snake.

We are still keeping an eye on you in the matter related to whether you are a witch. Tread lightly here...
"The boy can talk to snakes, Dumbledore, and you still think he's trustworthy?"
Cornelius Fudge
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« Reply #75 on: April 13, 2014, 11:19:30 PM »

"The boy can talk to snakes, Dumbledore, and you still think he's trustworthy?"
Cornelius Fudge
I know a few young women who talk to cats, a young lady who talks to parrots, and some neighbors who talk to dogs, but I haven't heard of anyone talking to snakes, frogs or lizards.
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« Reply #76 on: April 13, 2014, 11:41:16 PM »

"The boy can talk to snakes, Dumbledore, and you still think he's trustworthy?"
Cornelius Fudge
I know a few young women who talk to cats, a young lady who talks to parrots, and some neighbors who talk to dogs, but I haven't heard of anyone talking to snakes, frogs or lizards.
Mammals and birds have more interest in talking with humans. Reptiles and amphibians don't really care all that much.
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If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
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Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
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« Reply #77 on: April 13, 2014, 11:43:54 PM »

If you check back to Jetavan's profile, you will see that HE is MALE so he  would in no circumstances be a witch; - a wizard, maybe, but not a witch.
just coven't be done....
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« Reply #78 on: April 13, 2014, 11:51:01 PM »

He could be a warlock ... OK, I've been watching too many reruns of Bewitched.   laugh
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« Reply #79 on: April 14, 2014, 12:00:12 AM »

out come the animals, two by two; 'Be fruitful and multiply'. then the snakes come out and are very despondent. 'But Mr. Noah, we can't.'
'Can't; can't what?' 'Multiply, Mr. Noah'  'Well, why not?' 'well we're adders.'


Best Post of the thread...and possibly, nay, quite likely better than the silly movie.
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« Reply #80 on: April 14, 2014, 12:08:17 AM »

Hi, DD:
I have to admit it's not original.
(Isn't it a bit late for you to be up, young lady?)
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« Reply #81 on: April 14, 2014, 12:11:42 AM »

Not even 10 yet! 

*refrains from an agey comment*

 Tongue
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« Reply #82 on: April 14, 2014, 04:00:28 AM »

If you check back to Jetavan's profile, you will see that HE is MALE so he  would in no circumstances be a witch; - a wizard, maybe, but not a witch.
just coven't be done....

They have a saying in the black arts--"With witchcraft, anything is possible."  Shocked
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« Reply #83 on: April 14, 2014, 08:34:02 AM »

I haven't seen the movie yet, but a lot of my friends have made a huge deal about the "rock monsters." Although the director seems to have taken some "artistic liberties," which I don't think is a bad thing, the rock monsters may not be as unbiblical as they seem as that idea comes from the book of Enoch.  Guess it depends if your Bible contains that book.

I never understood all the controversy surrounding this. Its not a daggum documentary. Its a movie thats based on a story that a lot of people believe to be true.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 08:35:18 AM by Timon » Logged

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