Author Topic: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?  (Read 11413 times)

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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #45 on: March 26, 2014, 02:05:34 PM »
And on equality, Greatest I Am, you start off by misrepresenting the orthodox view on equality to later state a question which makes no point in the light of a misunderstanding you have been teaching yourself.

Based on feelings and a belief in God of some kind. Each man could come to the same conclusion as you when it comes to giving birth to children.  Every man can cry about inequality among men and woman as men cannot give birth to children. But that does not matter, but reality is. Equality does not equal exactly the same actions, thoughts, strength, kilograms on the scale and length of eyebrows on both women and men. Therefore the orthodox church only takes a stance on homosexuality when it comes to sexual acts, as it only promotes lustful behavior and no solution for promoting life on earth. The problem is not with people, but with actions.

You made a big mistake by switching the place on them, thinking that the problem is with people and not actions.

Pray for me and forgive me, the sinner

I see that you fixate on sex rather than love.

You would deny someone a loving life mate because of sex.

Jesus was all about love. Why can't you be?

As to sex just for reproduction, care to estimate how many Christians do birth control?
What is the number? About 95%?

Sound a lot like hypocrisy. But who am I to judge eh?

Regards
DL

Birth control is necessary in some circumstances according to the Orthodox Church, yet another ignorant misinformed comment. Plus, I'd like to know how the actions of 'Christians" most of whom are not Orthodox, have any standing on the Orthodox Church. Maybe you can explain that to me.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 02:06:22 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #46 on: March 26, 2014, 02:07:02 PM »
If you are not buying it then you can answer your question better than I can.

Why would you reject a religion that is Universalist and gives all people equality for your own who discriminates against half the planet without just cause?

Even if you believe your particular religion does not, even as I have shown it does by not having female priests you might speak to why Muslim women are not making the change. I think it is because their men would kill many but that is speculation on my part and that would only be a minimum number.

Personally, I think the reason shown in this clip might have a lot to do with it and that would mean that there are way more liars and hypocrites out there for my tastes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV2VjdpVonY

Regards
DL

In other words, you can't or won't answer my question, preferring to attack traditional religion rather than defend and advance your own.  And that's fine, I just wanted to make sure. 

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #47 on: March 26, 2014, 02:07:55 PM »
Birth control is necessary in some circumstances according to the Orthodox Church...

Huh?

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2014, 02:09:36 PM »
I am an historian specializing in 1st century church hierarchy. My studies have included many gnostic texts and learning about different gnostic sects. Having this background, I wonder if you have studied your own faith's history, since many of the claims you make are false and many of the criticisms you have for orthodox Christianity are applicable also to man gnostic groups.

As for my own view of Gnosticism, my sentiments are those of David Bentley Hart, who stated that one only has to read gnostic scriptures to see why they were rejected by the Church.

Constantine's new Church rejected Gnostic text and theologies of Universalism and equality because they wanted to keep women as chattel and not as equal. They liked the pyramidal hierarchical demography of Rome and could not likely fathom the more communistic flat demographic pyramid that Gnostic Christianity showed. Rome also wanted nice quiet sheep to fleece and Gnostic Christian thinkers would have been harder to control and manipulate and that was the political reason for choosing the Christian.

Rome wanted the Roman boot licking Jesus and not the Jewish militant one.

I take it you do not believe in equality either. Right?

Regards
DL

Constantine did not create a "new" Church. There is no evidence of that. All he did was stop the persecution of Christians. Gnosticism was already rejected in the 2nd century. Rejecting Gnosticism had nothing to do with the equality of women.

Would Christianity be the same if Jesus was not thought of as God and a part of the Trinity?

No it would not. If Jesus was just a man, we would still be waiting for a redeemer. Right.

I have a rather long piece on how Constantine basically forced the trinity concept down Christianity's throat by rigging the vote with threats and will post it if you do not want to validate or accept my statement on your own.

Regards
DL

 

Constantine only called the council, he didn't force it down anybody's throat until after the Trinity was already agreed upon doctrine in the Council of Nicaea.
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #49 on: March 26, 2014, 02:10:09 PM »
xOrthodox4Christx

I know you would like me to leave you be.

For evil to grow all good people need do is nothing.

It is in my best interest to elevate all religions.

Your daughters and granddaughters deserve it even as you would make second class citizens of them.

Regards
DL
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 02:11:58 PM by Greatest I am »

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #50 on: March 26, 2014, 02:10:44 PM »
That is why religions are shrinking and also making it harder for moral religions like Gnostic Christianity to grow.

If your faith has truth on its side, including at least one belief ("equal rights for homosexuals and women", as you define it) that is so in vogue in the West, why is it hard for you religion to grow?  

Because of the reputation of Christianity and Islam basically.

What secularist or humanist in his right mind would choose a religion that discriminate against half the worlds population without just cause?

Only the really dumb and immoral ones. Right?

You're just highlighting my question, not answering it.  If Christianity and Islam are so dumb and immoral, and Gnostic Christianity is intelligent, enlightened, and moral, and if in fact Gnostic Christianity's values are more appealing to modern people than "traditional" Christianity and Islam, why the lack of growth of Gnostic Christianity?  Your religion should be a much need breath of fresh air for so many.  People should be joining in droves.  I don't think people are so burned by "traditional" Christianity and Islam that they decide to give up entirely on all religion as a matter of principle: if you are offering a good product, people will embrace it.  And if your Gnostic Christianity is truth, what better product could there be?  And so convenient.  

But no one's buying it.  That's strange.    

If you are not buying it then you can answer your question better than I can.

Why would you reject a religion that is Universalist and gives all people equality for your own who discriminates against half the planet without just cause?

Even if you believe your particular religion does not, even as I have shown it does by not having female priests you might speak to why Muslim women are not making the change. I think it is because their men would kill many but that is speculation on my part and that would only be a minimum number.

Personally, I think the reason shown in this clip might have a lot to do with it and that would mean that there are way more liars and hypocrites out there for my tastes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV2VjdpVonY

Regards
DL

Quote
Why would you reject a religion that is Universalist and gives all people equality for your own who discriminates against half the planet without just cause?

Because your religion is a blatantly untrue cult.

Quote
Your daughters and granddaughters deserve it even as you would make second class citizens of them.

Stop telling us what we believe. Women are not second-class citizens, just because they are not allowed to be members of the Holy Orders. Your definition of second-class citizen is sad, where in the Western world, women are treated like sexualized toys, and in the Islamic world they are treated like cattle.

Stop making a fool of yourself.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 02:12:58 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Offline Keble

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2014, 02:11:52 PM »
Your talking animals and water walking genocidal son murderer are more believable than other myths. Ok.
Stay in your comfy delusion.

If you believe that the true Christian religion is not plausible, I say to you, your problem in this argument remains that the religion you press upon us is yet less plausible, so attacking my religion is not improving your situation.

And I don't look at YouTube videos, so I will confine my comment to the Lukan passage, which, unsurprisingly, is being taken out of context. Jesus said many things, much of which has gone unrecorded, as John says; but one passage, which I find variously translated as "the kingdom of God is in your midst" or "among you" or "within you", is hardly ironclad evidence of the kind of pantheist/panentheist divine presence you are pushing. I would also point out that, given that the KJV from which you quote was written by a committee of Anglican divines, my church has a great deal more standing to interpret the passage than you do. And as one can readily read, the passage in its whole is apocalyptic, not theological.

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #52 on: March 26, 2014, 02:15:11 PM »
I am an historian specializing in 1st century church hierarchy. My studies have included many gnostic texts and learning about different gnostic sects. Having this background, I wonder if you have studied your own faith's history, since many of the claims you make are false and many of the criticisms you have for orthodox Christianity are applicable also to man gnostic groups.

As for my own view of Gnosticism, my sentiments are those of David Bentley Hart, who stated that one only has to read gnostic scriptures to see why they were rejected by the Church.

Constantine's new Church rejected Gnostic text and theologies of Universalism and equality because they wanted to keep women as chattel and not as equal. They liked the pyramidal hierarchical demography of Rome and could not likely fathom the more communistic flat demographic pyramid that Gnostic Christianity showed. Rome also wanted nice quiet sheep to fleece and Gnostic Christian thinkers would have been harder to control and manipulate and that was the political reason for choosing the Christian.

Rome wanted the Roman boot licking Jesus and not the Jewish militant one.

I take it you do not believe in equality either. Right?

Regards
DL

Constantine's Church? No. They were fighting against Gnosticism before Constantine was even born. Gnostics of the ancient world did not believe in equality. The Gospel of Thomas illustrates this clearly.

Quote from: Gospel of Thomas
114. Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life."

Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #53 on: March 26, 2014, 02:17:41 PM »
If you are not buying it then you can answer your question better than I can.

Why would you reject a religion that is Universalist and gives all people equality for your own who discriminates against half the planet without just cause?

Even if you believe your particular religion does not, even as I have shown it does by not having female priests you might speak to why Muslim women are not making the change. I think it is because their men would kill many but that is speculation on my part and that would only be a minimum number.

Personally, I think the reason shown in this clip might have a lot to do with it and that would mean that there are way more liars and hypocrites out there for my tastes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV2VjdpVonY

Regards
DL

In other words, you can't or won't answer my question, preferring to attack traditional religion rather than defend and advance your own.  And that's fine, I just wanted to make sure. 

IOW. You do not know or do not care about why you discriminate, without just cause, against women and gays. It's just tradition.

 John 6 ; 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


Regards
DL

Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #54 on: March 26, 2014, 02:19:31 PM »
I am an historian specializing in 1st century church hierarchy. My studies have included many gnostic texts and learning about different gnostic sects. Having this background, I wonder if you have studied your own faith's history, since many of the claims you make are false and many of the criticisms you have for orthodox Christianity are applicable also to man gnostic groups.

As for my own view of Gnosticism, my sentiments are those of David Bentley Hart, who stated that one only has to read gnostic scriptures to see why they were rejected by the Church.

Constantine's new Church rejected Gnostic text and theologies of Universalism and equality because they wanted to keep women as chattel and not as equal. They liked the pyramidal hierarchical demography of Rome and could not likely fathom the more communistic flat demographic pyramid that Gnostic Christianity showed. Rome also wanted nice quiet sheep to fleece and Gnostic Christian thinkers would have been harder to control and manipulate and that was the political reason for choosing the Christian.

Rome wanted the Roman boot licking Jesus and not the Jewish militant one.

I take it you do not believe in equality either. Right?

Regards
DL

Constantine did not create a "new" Church. There is no evidence of that. All he did was stop the persecution of Christians. Gnosticism was already rejected in the 2nd century. Rejecting Gnosticism had nothing to do with the equality of women.

Would Christianity be the same if Jesus was not thought of as God and a part of the Trinity?

No it would not. If Jesus was just a man, we would still be waiting for a redeemer. Right.

I have a rather long piece on how Constantine basically forced the trinity concept down Christianity's throat by rigging the vote with threats and will post it if you do not want to validate or accept my statement on your own.

Regards
DL

 

Constantine only called the council, he didn't force it down anybody's throat until after the Trinity was already agreed upon doctrine in the Council of Nicaea.

Originally Posted by animefan48
Well, the reality is most Christians do buy into the trinity doctrine because of persecution of the early Gnostics and non-Trinitarians, and the religious councils were dissenters were forced to agree to a Trinitarian theology. Many Unitarian and Universalist theologies argue that when Jesus said he was the way, he meant that he was an example of how to live to be united/reunited with God. As for the name, God does give other names for himself including the Alpha and Omega, as well as some believe a name that should not be written (or even spoken I believe). Honestly, I think using the name I Am That I Am would just be confusing and convoluted, seriously. I seriously do not believe that it is a continuation of Gnostic/mystical/Unitarian suppression. Even the Gnostic and mystical traditions within Islam and Christianity do not tend to use that name, and among the 99 Names of Allah, I did not find that one. Also, many Rastafarians believe that the Holy Spirit lives in humans and will sometimes say I and I instead of we, yet they don't seem to use the name I Am for God/Jah either, so I really don't think it can be related to suppressing mystical and Gnostic interpretations. I think that originally oppressing those ideas and decreeing them heretical are quite enough, the early Church did such a good job that after the split many Protestant groups continued to condemn mystical and later Gnostic sects and theologies.





Yup, the bishops voted and it was settled for all time!!1 (Some say the preliminary votes were 150 something to 140 something in favor of the trinity)

But then Constantine stepped in: After a prolonged and inconclusive debate, the impatient Constantine intervened to force an end to the conflict by demanding the adoption of the creed. The vote was taken under threat of exile for any who did not support the decision favored by Constantine. (And later, they fully endorsed the trinity idea when it all happened again at the council of Constantinople in AD 381, where only Trinitarians were invited to attend. Surprise! They also managed to carry a vote in favor of the Trinity.)

http://home.pacific.net.au/~amaxwell/bdigest/bd12bbs.tx


Even a Trinitarian scholar admits the Earliest & Original beliefs were NOT Trinitarian!

The trinity formulation is a later corruption away from the earliest & original beliefs!

"It must be admitted by everyone who has the rudiments of an historical sense that the doctrine of the Trinity, as a doctrine, formed no part of the original message. St Paul knew it not, and would have been unable to understand the meaning of the terms used in the theological formula on which the Church ultimately agreed".
Dr. W R Matthews, Dean of St Paul's Cathedral, "God in Christian Thought and Experience", p.180

"In order to understand the doctrine of the Trinity it is necessary to understand that the doctrine is a development, and why it developed. ... It is a waste of time to attempt to read Trinitarian doctrine directly off the pages of the New Testament".
R Hanson: "Reasonable Belief, A survey of the Christian Faith, p.171-173, 1980

The doctrine of the Trinity is not taught in the Old Testament.
New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XIV, p. 306.

"The formulation ‘One God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.... Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective"
New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. 14, p. 299.

"The formulation ‘One God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.... Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective" (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. 14, p. 299).

"Fourth-century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary a deviation from this teaching" (The Encyclopedia Americana, p. 1956, p. 2941).

Was Jesus God to Paul and other early Christians? No. . . . .
(Source: How the Bible became the Bible by Donald L. O'Dell - ISBN 0-7414-2993-4 Published by INFINITY Publishing.com)

Constantine’s Victory Arch says it all.

http://www.simchajtv.com/movie-secrets-of-christianity-selling-christianity/

Regards
DL


Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #55 on: March 26, 2014, 02:25:02 PM »
Your talking animals and water walking genocidal son murderer are more believable than other myths. Ok.
Stay in your comfy delusion.

If you believe that the true Christian religion is not plausible, I say to you, your problem in this argument remains that the religion you press upon us is yet less plausible, so attacking my religion is not improving your situation.

And I don't look at YouTube videos, so I will confine my comment to the Lukan passage, which, unsurprisingly, is being taken out of context. Jesus said many things, much of which has gone unrecorded, as John says; but one passage, which I find variously translated as "the kingdom of God is in your midst" or "among you" or "within you", is hardly ironclad evidence of the kind of pantheist/panentheist divine presence you are pushing. I would also point out that, given that the KJV from which you quote was written by a committee of Anglican divines, my church has a great deal more standing to interpret the passage than you do. And as one can readily read, the passage in its whole is apocalyptic, not theological.


Ok.

Your myth is more believable than mine and equality of the sexes, a fundamental in law is not good enough to have you look at how Gnostic Christianity works.

Do not care about your daughters and granddaughters being second class citizens.

Regards
DL
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 02:25:18 PM by Greatest I am »

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #56 on: March 26, 2014, 02:28:29 PM »
I am an historian specializing in 1st century church hierarchy. My studies have included many gnostic texts and learning about different gnostic sects. Having this background, I wonder if you have studied your own faith's history, since many of the claims you make are false and many of the criticisms you have for orthodox Christianity are applicable also to man gnostic groups.

As for my own view of Gnosticism, my sentiments are those of David Bentley Hart, who stated that one only has to read gnostic scriptures to see why they were rejected by the Church.

Constantine's new Church rejected Gnostic text and theologies of Universalism and equality because they wanted to keep women as chattel and not as equal. They liked the pyramidal hierarchical demography of Rome and could not likely fathom the more communistic flat demographic pyramid that Gnostic Christianity showed. Rome also wanted nice quiet sheep to fleece and Gnostic Christian thinkers would have been harder to control and manipulate and that was the political reason for choosing the Christian.

Rome wanted the Roman boot licking Jesus and not the Jewish militant one.

I take it you do not believe in equality either. Right?

Regards
DL

Constantine did not create a "new" Church. There is no evidence of that. All he did was stop the persecution of Christians. Gnosticism was already rejected in the 2nd century. Rejecting Gnosticism had nothing to do with the equality of women.

Would Christianity be the same if Jesus was not thought of as God and a part of the Trinity?

No it would not. If Jesus was just a man, we would still be waiting for a redeemer. Right.

I have a rather long piece on how Constantine basically forced the trinity concept down Christianity's throat by rigging the vote with threats and will post it if you do not want to validate or accept my statement on your own.

Regards
DL

 

Constantine only called the council, he didn't force it down anybody's throat until after the Trinity was already agreed upon doctrine in the Council of Nicaea.

Originally Posted by animefan48
Well, the reality is most Christians do buy into the trinity doctrine because of persecution of the early Gnostics and non-Trinitarians, and the religious councils were dissenters were forced to agree to a Trinitarian theology. Many Unitarian and Universalist theologies argue that when Jesus said he was the way, he meant that he was an example of how to live to be united/reunited with God. As for the name, God does give other names for himself including the Alpha and Omega, as well as some believe a name that should not be written (or even spoken I believe). Honestly, I think using the name I Am That I Am would just be confusing and convoluted, seriously. I seriously do not believe that it is a continuation of Gnostic/mystical/Unitarian suppression. Even the Gnostic and mystical traditions within Islam and Christianity do not tend to use that name, and among the 99 Names of Allah, I did not find that one. Also, many Rastafarians believe that the Holy Spirit lives in humans and will sometimes say I and I instead of we, yet they don't seem to use the name I Am for God/Jah either, so I really don't think it can be related to suppressing mystical and Gnostic interpretations. I think that originally oppressing those ideas and decreeing them heretical are quite enough, the early Church did such a good job that after the split many Protestant groups continued to condemn mystical and later Gnostic sects and theologies.





Yup, the bishops voted and it was settled for all time!!1 (Some say the preliminary votes were 150 something to 140 something in favor of the trinity)

But then Constantine stepped in: After a prolonged and inconclusive debate, the impatient Constantine intervened to force an end to the conflict by demanding the adoption of the creed. The vote was taken under threat of exile for any who did not support the decision favored by Constantine. (And later, they fully endorsed the trinity idea when it all happened again at the council of Constantinople in AD 381, where only Trinitarians were invited to attend. Surprise! They also managed to carry a vote in favor of the Trinity.)

http://home.pacific.net.au/~amaxwell/bdigest/bd12bbs.tx


Even a Trinitarian scholar admits the Earliest & Original beliefs were NOT Trinitarian!

The trinity formulation is a later corruption away from the earliest & original beliefs!

"It must be admitted by everyone who has the rudiments of an historical sense that the doctrine of the Trinity, as a doctrine, formed no part of the original message. St Paul knew it not, and would have been unable to understand the meaning of the terms used in the theological formula on which the Church ultimately agreed".
Dr. W R Matthews, Dean of St Paul's Cathedral, "God in Christian Thought and Experience", p.180

"In order to understand the doctrine of the Trinity it is necessary to understand that the doctrine is a development, and why it developed. ... It is a waste of time to attempt to read Trinitarian doctrine directly off the pages of the New Testament".
R Hanson: "Reasonable Belief, A survey of the Christian Faith, p.171-173, 1980

The doctrine of the Trinity is not taught in the Old Testament.
New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. XIV, p. 306.

"The formulation ‘One God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.... Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective"
New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. 14, p. 299.

"The formulation ‘One God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.... Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective" (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. 14, p. 299).

"Fourth-century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary a deviation from this teaching" (The Encyclopedia Americana, p. 1956, p. 2941).

Was Jesus God to Paul and other early Christians? No. . . . .
(Source: How the Bible became the Bible by Donald L. O'Dell - ISBN 0-7414-2993-4 Published by INFINITY Publishing.com)

Constantine’s Victory Arch says it all.

http://www.simchajtv.com/movie-secrets-of-christianity-selling-christianity/
Regards
DL

Sure. So what? Just because the early Church had no clear Trinitarian doctrine doesn't somehow mean that Unitarians and pseudo-Gnostics over one thousands years later more accurately reflect early Christian teachings, anymore than Islam does.

Quote
Do not care about your daughters and granddaughters being second class citizens.

My daughter would not be a 'second-class citizen' just because she couldn't be a priest, anymore than a blue collar worker isn't a 'second-class citizen' because he cannot become a CEO of Microsoft. People have different roles to play within a community, it isn't an individualistic "I get what I want" society.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 02:30:54 PM by xOrthodox4Christx »
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #57 on: March 26, 2014, 02:33:21 PM »
I am an historian specializing in 1st century church hierarchy. My studies have included many gnostic texts and learning about different gnostic sects. Having this background, I wonder if you have studied your own faith's history, since many of the claims you make are false and many of the criticisms you have for orthodox Christianity are applicable also to man gnostic groups.

As for my own view of Gnosticism, my sentiments are those of David Bentley Hart, who stated that one only has to read gnostic scriptures to see why they were rejected by the Church.

Constantine's new Church rejected Gnostic text and theologies of Universalism and equality because they wanted to keep women as chattel and not as equal. They liked the pyramidal hierarchical demography of Rome and could not likely fathom the more communistic flat demographic pyramid that Gnostic Christianity showed. Rome also wanted nice quiet sheep to fleece and Gnostic Christian thinkers would have been harder to control and manipulate and that was the political reason for choosing the Christian.

Rome wanted the Roman boot licking Jesus and not the Jewish militant one.

I take it you do not believe in equality either. Right?

Regards
DL

Constantine's Church? No. They were fighting against Gnosticism before Constantine was even born. Gnostics of the ancient world did not believe in equality. The Gospel of Thomas illustrates this clearly.

Quote from: Gospel of Thomas
114. Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life."

Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

http://gnosis.org/library/ephip.htm

On Righteousness

The rightousness of God is a kind of sharing along with equality. There is equality in the heaven which is stretched out in all directions and contains the entire earth in its circle. The night reveals all the stars equally.

http://www.netplaces.com/gnostic-gospels/who-were-the-authors-of-the-gnostic-gospels/gnostic-view-of-gender-equality.htm

The Christian bible has that same passage that you quote.

You did not quote where Jesus kisses Mary and not the men. You should be aware that in the old days, Gnostic Christians and the Jews were famous for reversing their scriptures or adding and subtracting words just to spice up the conversation. I have a link to Karen Armstrong  speaking of that but you would not likely believe an ex nun and scholar.

Regards
DL

Offline Jovan

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #58 on: March 26, 2014, 02:36:30 PM »
And on equality, Greatest I Am, you start off by misrepresenting the orthodox view on equality to later state a question which makes no point in the light of a misunderstanding you have been teaching yourself.

Based on feelings and a belief in God of some kind. Each man could come to the same conclusion as you when it comes to giving birth to children.  Every man can cry about inequality among men and woman as men cannot give birth to children. But that does not matter, but reality is. Equality does not equal exactly the same actions, thoughts, strength, kilograms on the scale and length of eyebrows on both women and men. Therefore the orthodox church only takes a stance on homosexuality when it comes to sexual acts, as it only promotes lustful behavior and no solution for promoting life on earth. The problem is not with people, but with actions.

You made a big mistake by switching the place on them, thinking that the problem is with people and not actions.

Pray for me and forgive me, the sinner

I see that you fixate on sex rather than love.

You would deny someone a loving life mate because of sex.

Jesus was all about love. Why can't you be?

As to sex just for reproduction, care to estimate how many Christians do birth control?
What is the number? About 95%?

Sound a lot like hypocrisy. But who am I to judge eh?

Regards
DL

Yes, Jesus was so much about love in all matters of life, even to the matter where he turned all the tables around in the temple and called people the sons of Satan, their Father. (John 8:44) Not because he hated them and despised them, but because of love and truth. You would deny a person to have sex with 10 persons at a time, even though all of them perceived things as love and acted upon it. Don´t use tricks that totally ruins your own standard.

And what baptized Christians do and says has no affection on what Christ is and will always be. So stop turning things around to work evilness around this forum, please. Look inside yourself and ask about hypocrisy, not all other 95% of all Christians in the world.

I have, with many other people here Greatest I am, the love to tell you that you have been informed wrong about the Orthodox Church, its view on things and on what you perceive to be equal and unequal.

You didn´t answer me on the question about childbirth, with your standard God and we humans are living unequally because men can´t give birth to children.

Pray for me and forgive me, the sinner

“Belatedly I loved thee, O Beauty so ancient and so new, belatedly I loved thee. For see, thou wast within and I was without, and I sought thee out there."

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #59 on: March 26, 2014, 02:37:37 PM »
I am an historian specializing in 1st century church hierarchy. My studies have included many gnostic texts and learning about different gnostic sects. Having this background, I wonder if you have studied your own faith's history, since many of the claims you make are false and many of the criticisms you have for orthodox Christianity are applicable also to man gnostic groups.

As for my own view of Gnosticism, my sentiments are those of David Bentley Hart, who stated that one only has to read gnostic scriptures to see why they were rejected by the Church.

Constantine's new Church rejected Gnostic text and theologies of Universalism and equality because they wanted to keep women as chattel and not as equal. They liked the pyramidal hierarchical demography of Rome and could not likely fathom the more communistic flat demographic pyramid that Gnostic Christianity showed. Rome also wanted nice quiet sheep to fleece and Gnostic Christian thinkers would have been harder to control and manipulate and that was the political reason for choosing the Christian.

Rome wanted the Roman boot licking Jesus and not the Jewish militant one.

I take it you do not believe in equality either. Right?

Regards
DL

Constantine's Church? No. They were fighting against Gnosticism before Constantine was even born. Gnostics of the ancient world did not believe in equality. The Gospel of Thomas illustrates this clearly.

Quote from: Gospel of Thomas
114. Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life."

Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

http://gnosis.org/library/ephip.htm

On Righteousness

The rightousness of God is a kind of sharing along with equality. There is equality in the heaven which is stretched out in all directions and contains the entire earth in its circle. The night reveals all the stars equally.

http://www.netplaces.com/gnostic-gospels/who-were-the-authors-of-the-gnostic-gospels/gnostic-view-of-gender-equality.htm

The Christian bible has that same passage that you quote.

You did not quote where Jesus kisses Mary and not the men.
You should be aware that in the old days, Gnostic Christians and the Jews were famous for reversing their scriptures or adding and subtracting words just to spice up the conversation. I have a link to Karen Armstrong  speaking of that but you would not likely believe an ex nun and scholar.

Regards
DL

That was in a different gospel, not Thomas. Regardless, don't ignore the evidence and post what your modern pseudo-Gnostic cult says. Karen Armstrong is not a scholar. Her books on Islam are horse... stuff. Whether the Bible says something doesn't matter to me at all. The Bible says anything to anyone.
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #60 on: March 26, 2014, 02:39:43 PM »

Offline Jovan

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #61 on: March 26, 2014, 02:40:40 PM »
Lord have mercy.
“Belatedly I loved thee, O Beauty so ancient and so new, belatedly I loved thee. For see, thou wast within and I was without, and I sought thee out there."

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #62 on: March 26, 2014, 02:43:16 PM »
Yeah, I think I'm done here too. This forum has been devolving for a while now. I'm officially taking a break from it. See y'all in the summer.  8)
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #63 on: March 26, 2014, 02:46:01 PM »
You didn´t answer me on the question about childbirth, with your standard God and we humans are living unequally because men can´t give birth to children.


Because it was a stupid question.

If you have a problem with the way your God creates, take it up with him.

Remember that the gay gene visits every genetic line over time. What will you do when it hits yours?

Regards
DL

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #64 on: March 26, 2014, 02:47:51 PM »
Nothing is divine that was not labelled so by a man.

You go ahead and trust what ancient men wrote. They were real bright back then as compared to today.

Regards
DL

They didn't allow the US government to initiate a spy & kill program that has the capacity to monitor 100% of communications around the world, and when they feel threatened they initiate drone strikes, hellfire missiles or carpet bombs on civilian populations. 1st century people didn't do that, that makes them intelligent in my book.

They also didn't make WMD that kill hundreds of thousands in Nagasaki and Hiroshima, FYI.

That is nothing compared to the O. T. God.

No American other than an insane one would torture a baby for 6 days before finally killing it because he was angry with the father. Your God did in the King David myth.

Not to mention when he targeted the first born children of Egypt after hardening pharaoh's heart so he could show off his baby murdering technique.

Who is more vile? Americans or God?

My money is on God because he can cure instead of kill everyone he kills. Americans cannot cure those they kill so must kill.

Regards
DL
 

Americans. The Old Testament's historicity is questionable. But, I don't think the OT God killed millions of people. Maybe you ought to check the numbers.

Americans can 'cure'. They just stop war. The US has no reason in waging war. NONE whatsoever. Making excuses and fabricating documents and media to support your warmongering agenda doesn't have anything to do with with America "curing" anything. I am an American, I make no excuses about the war crimes and imperialism of this country around the world, since it's inception.

Again, this is just a false comparison. The Old Testament may not have happened, the Holocaust, Hiroshima and Nagasaki and agent orange did happen. Furthermore, US crimes around the world, propping up dictatorships, supporting jihadis, and their spy and kill programs are still killing people. These comparisons are apples and oranges.
Enough with the politics, dude. You can make your point without such political commentary. If you want to discuss politics, then take it to the Politics board.
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Offline Laird

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #65 on: March 26, 2014, 02:50:11 PM »
I am an historian specializing in 1st century church hierarchy. My studies have included many gnostic texts and learning about different gnostic sects. Having this background, I wonder if you have studied your own faith's history, since many of the claims you make are false and many of the criticisms you have for orthodox Christianity are applicable also to man gnostic groups.

As for my own view of Gnosticism, my sentiments are those of David Bentley Hart, who stated that one only has to read gnostic scriptures to see why they were rejected by the Church.

Constantine's new Church rejected Gnostic text and theologies of Universalism and equality because they wanted to keep women as chattel and not as equal. They liked the pyramidal hierarchical demography of Rome and could not likely fathom the more communistic flat demographic pyramid that Gnostic Christianity showed. Rome also wanted nice quiet sheep to fleece and Gnostic Christian thinkers would have been harder to control and manipulate and that was the political reason for choosing the Christian.

Rome wanted the Roman boot licking Jesus and not the Jewish militant one.

I take it you do not believe in equality either. Right?

Regards
DL

Constantine did not create a "new" Church. There is no evidence of that. All he did was stop the persecution of Christians. Gnosticism was already rejected in the 2nd century. Rejecting Gnosticism had nothing to do with the equality of women.

Would Christianity be the same if Jesus was not thought of as God and a part of the Trinity?

No it would not. If Jesus was just a man, we would still be waiting for a redeemer. Right.

I have a rather long piece on how Constantine basically forced the trinity concept down Christianity's throat by rigging the vote with threats and will post it if you do not want to validate or accept my statement on your own.

Regards
DL

 

Constantine only called the council, he did not force the Trinity on them or rig the votes. And although the pre-Nicene Church did not have a developed Trinitarian terminology prior to the council, the Trinity was definitely not a novel doctrine. St. Ignatius of Antioch (107AD) clearly believed in the deity of Christ; he calls Jesus 'God' 13 times.

Why would I accept your statement on its own? All you've done on this thread is distort and misrepresent the Church's teachings.
"Do not deceive yourself with idle hopes that in the world to come you will find life if you have not tried to find it in this present world." - Theophanis the Monk

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #66 on: March 26, 2014, 03:10:41 PM »
"Simon Peter said to them, 'Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life.' Jesus said, 'Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

-Gnostic Gospel of Thomas
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline Laird

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #67 on: March 26, 2014, 03:16:07 PM »
"Simon Peter said to them, 'Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life.' Jesus said, 'Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

-Gnostic Gospel of Thomas

How ironic.
"Do not deceive yourself with idle hopes that in the world to come you will find life if you have not tried to find it in this present world." - Theophanis the Monk

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #68 on: March 26, 2014, 03:31:24 PM »
If you are not buying it then you can answer your question better than I can.

Why would you reject a religion that is Universalist and gives all people equality for your own who discriminates against half the planet without just cause?

Even if you believe your particular religion does not, even as I have shown it does by not having female priests you might speak to why Muslim women are not making the change. I think it is because their men would kill many but that is speculation on my part and that would only be a minimum number.

Personally, I think the reason shown in this clip might have a lot to do with it and that would mean that there are way more liars and hypocrites out there for my tastes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV2VjdpVonY

Regards
DL

In other words, you can't or won't answer my question, preferring to attack traditional religion rather than defend and advance your own.  And that's fine, I just wanted to make sure. 

IOW. You do not know or do not care about why you discriminate, without just cause, against women and gays. It's just tradition.

 John 6 ; 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


Regards
DL

Your response would've been more compelling if you had limited yourself to a heartfelt "Yo mama!"

Offline Keble

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #69 on: March 26, 2014, 03:34:10 PM »
Your myth is more believable than mine and equality of the sexes, a fundamental in law is not good enough to have you look at how Gnostic Christianity works.

Do not care about your daughters and granddaughters being second class citizens.

Dude, I'm an Episcopalian; my presiding bishop is a woman (even if she is a heretic). Go yank someone else's chain.

Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #70 on: March 26, 2014, 03:34:42 PM »
[
Enough with the politics, dude. You can make your point without such political commentary. If you want to discuss politics, then take it to the Politics board.

Hi.

Long time no chat.

Our friend may have left this O. P. but I did want to take the opportunity to say hi.

Will you opine on the O P?

Your POV is always of interest.

Regards
DL
 

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #71 on: March 26, 2014, 03:37:21 PM »
Yeah, I think I'm done here too. This forum has been devolving for a while now. I'm officially taking a break from it. See y'all in the summer.  8)
Yes, please do. Considering some of the errors, deceiving half-truths, and other careless statements you have proclaimed on this forum:

  • Orthodox don't believe in Hell.
  • Mary didn't conceive but Joseph made many women conceive before he married St. Mary.
  • I never claimed the Bible wasn't important, it clearly is. I read the Bible more than any other religious text. But I don't think it's absolutely necessary, which the word 'need' seems to suggest in these contexts.
  • It doesn't support Sola Scriptura because if it did, then the Jews would correct and Christians wouldn't be.
  • I have heard that a Pope (Benedict XVI or Francis) gave them to a Calvinist who didn't believe in the Real Presence, for example.
  • Catholic apologists like to play the "church Fathers" game which proves nothing.None of the early church Fathers are espousing the Latin's filioque, that the Father and Son are the eternal source of the Holy Spirit. They speak of the Orthodox understanding of the Son's role in the temporal procession of the Holy Spirit. St .Hilary of Poitiers is an example: " In the fact that before times eternal your(the Father's) only begotten Son was born of you, when we put an end to every ambiguity of words and difficulty of understanding, there remains only this: he was born. So too, even if I do not gasp it in my understanding, I hold fast in my consciousness to the fact that your Holy Spirit is from Him THROUGH HIM." Maximus the Confessor: 'By nature the Holy Spirit in his being takes substantially his origin from the Father through the Son who is begotten.

    The filioque addition goes against the decisions of the Ecumenical Councils. The 3rd Ecumenical Council condemns changes to the Creed. Canon VII. The filioque was added by a local council, Toledo, and even after 400 years after Toledo Rome condemned anyone from adding it due to it not being seen as Orthodox.

    "From" and "through" are one and the same as the Catholic Church explicitly teaches or else how do you reconcile what St. Hilary also said here :

    Quote
    Hilary of Poitiers

    "Concerning the Holy Spirit . . . it is not necessary to speak of him who must be acknowledged, who is from the Father and the Son, his sources (The Trinity 2:29)

    That's what Orthodox believe too, problem is the Latin creed does not say that.

I would hope that you'll wait until you've completed your Orthodox catechism and been received into the Church before you choose to re-engage others in the debates you so enjoy.
Not all who wander are lost.

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #72 on: March 26, 2014, 03:39:48 PM »

You're still wrong about this one, PTA  :police:

Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #73 on: March 26, 2014, 03:42:32 PM »
I am an historian specializing in 1st century church hierarchy. My studies have included many gnostic texts and learning about different gnostic sects. Having this background, I wonder if you have studied your own faith's history, since many of the claims you make are false and many of the criticisms you have for orthodox Christianity are applicable also to man gnostic groups.

As for my own view of Gnosticism, my sentiments are those of David Bentley Hart, who stated that one only has to read gnostic scriptures to see why they were rejected by the Church.

Constantine's new Church rejected Gnostic text and theologies of Universalism and equality because they wanted to keep women as chattel and not as equal. They liked the pyramidal hierarchical demography of Rome and could not likely fathom the more communistic flat demographic pyramid that Gnostic Christianity showed. Rome also wanted nice quiet sheep to fleece and Gnostic Christian thinkers would have been harder to control and manipulate and that was the political reason for choosing the Christian.

Rome wanted the Roman boot licking Jesus and not the Jewish militant one.

I take it you do not believe in equality either. Right?

Regards
DL

Constantine did not create a "new" Church. There is no evidence of that. All he did was stop the persecution of Christians. Gnosticism was already rejected in the 2nd century. Rejecting Gnosticism had nothing to do with the equality of women.

Would Christianity be the same if Jesus was not thought of as God and a part of the Trinity?

No it would not. If Jesus was just a man, we would still be waiting for a redeemer. Right.

I have a rather long piece on how Constantine basically forced the trinity concept down Christianity's throat by rigging the vote with threats and will post it if you do not want to validate or accept my statement on your own.

Regards
DL

 

Constantine only called the council, he did not force the Trinity on them or rig the votes. And although the pre-Nicene Church did not have a developed Trinitarian terminology prior to the council, the Trinity was definitely not a novel doctrine. St. Ignatius of Antioch (107AD) clearly believed in the deity of Christ; he calls Jesus 'God' 13 times.

Why would I accept your statement on its own? All you've done on this thread is distort and misrepresent the Church's teachings.

Please read post 54 that way I do not have to take bandwidth.

I do not distort or misrepresent I do accentuate and show logical inferences.

If you are going to accuse then you should show what t you are talking about if you want me to take you seriously and not think you are just a mentally lazy whiner.

I have called God a genocidal son murderer many more time than that so does that make it any more true than St. Ignatius of Antioch calling Jesus God just because I do it often?

He, after all, has no more credibility than I do. In fact he has less as he was making money from the Church. He had more reason to lie then than I do now.

Regards
DL

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #74 on: March 26, 2014, 03:56:46 PM »

That was a real beauty.  YiM would've been proud!

Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #75 on: March 26, 2014, 04:03:44 PM »
"Simon Peter said to them, 'Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life.' Jesus said, 'Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

-Gnostic Gospel of Thomas

I took the lazy route and just picked this up.

I hate to disagree & I do not mean to offend, but this verse you are referring to is slightly misquoted here & it changes it's meaning greatly.
 From the Gospel of Thomas:
 Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the (Father's) domain]."
 This is the quote exactly from the Gospel.
 It was not directed at women per say, but to men & women equality.
 "When you make the male & female into a single one, so the male will not be male nor the female be female....then you will enter the father's Domain. It is talking more of Unity of the inner & outer, the male & the female, the move away from divided genders & separation for both genders.
 The female doesn't become male, nor does the male become female really, because in that Divine state duality ceases to be.
 There will be no separation of inner & outer as we understand it because on all levels of our Being we cease to be divided in duality when we again stand in Unity & Remember our First Estate.

-----------------------------

If you have done a bit of comparisons of many of the older religions, you will know that many of those God's were depicted as androgynous. Both male and female characteristics were thought to be needed to make a God complete and with Gnostic Christian thinking that we all have a spark of God within us, that spark would be androgynous.

Remember that Jesus was teaching men who were used to thinking of women as chattel so it was also reminding the men that they had some feminine characteristics in them as well.

Regards
DL

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #76 on: March 26, 2014, 04:05:12 PM »
"Simon Peter said to them, 'Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life.' Jesus said, 'Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

-Gnostic Gospel of Thomas

How ironic.

Sigh. Uneducated men.

Please read the post just above.

Regards
DL
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 04:05:34 PM by Greatest I am »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #77 on: March 26, 2014, 04:35:15 PM »

You're still wrong about this one, PTA  :police:
In calling it a careless statement, considering the context? No, I'm not wrong on this.
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #78 on: March 26, 2014, 04:45:28 PM »
To answer your original question? No! since it is a deceitful, elitist, heresy!

For ex. the outright denial of Orthodox Christian resurrection re 1st Corinthians 15:12:

"What does Paul mean when he speaks of "the resurrection of the dead?" The other apostles clearly proclaim this as the future , bodily resurrection of those who have died. But the gnostic initiate rejects this preaching as crude literalism , as error typical of the psychic preaching, the "faith of fools"! For who are "the dead"? The initiate knows that these are the psychics, who have been "deadened in this existence." What then,  concerns Paul in 1 Cor 15:12? He says that "some" are saying, "there is no resurrection of the dead," that is, the psychics cannot be raised from the "deadness of this existence" to spiritual life! For according to Valentinian exegesis, the "resurrection of the dead" is "recognition of the truth" spoken by those who have gnosis."

From: "The Gnostic Paul" (Gnostic exegesis of the Pauline letters) by Elaine Pagels.
Antiochian OC NA

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Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #79 on: March 26, 2014, 04:59:33 PM »
To answer your original question? No! since it is a deceitful, elitist, heresy!

For ex. the outright denial of Orthodox Christian resurrection re 1st Corinthians 15:12:

"What does Paul mean when he speaks of "the resurrection of the dead?" The other apostles clearly proclaim this as the future , bodily resurrection of those who have died. But the gnostic initiate rejects this preaching as crude literalism , as error typical of the psychic preaching, the "faith of fools"! For who are "the dead"? The initiate knows that these are the psychics, who have been "deadened in this existence." What then,  concerns Paul in 1 Cor 15:12? He says that "some" are saying, "there is no resurrection of the dead," that is, the psychics cannot be raised from the "deadness of this existence" to spiritual life! For according to Valentinian exegesis, the "resurrection of the dead" is "recognition of the truth" spoken by those who have gnosis."

From: "The Gnostic Paul" (Gnostic exegesis of the Pauline letters) by Elaine Pagels.

So you believe dead men can walk. How nice. If I recall, the only woman who actually saw the ascension, in this myth, said that Jesus was as tall as the clouds. I guess that like Elastic man the could just keep on stretching to the moon and beyond. Have you not heard that you are to put away childish things.

Have a look at what scholars are doing to your foolish notions. You might just need to listen to the beginning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5beZSE8gxo

Regards
DL




Offline recent convert

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #80 on: March 26, 2014, 05:04:02 PM »
To answer your original question? No! since it is a deceitful, elitist, heresy!

For ex. the outright denial of Orthodox Christian resurrection re 1st Corinthians 15:12:

"What does Paul mean when he speaks of "the resurrection of the dead?" The other apostles clearly proclaim this as the future , bodily resurrection of those who have died. But the gnostic initiate rejects this preaching as crude literalism , as error typical of the psychic preaching, the "faith of fools"! For who are "the dead"? The initiate knows that these are the psychics, who have been "deadened in this existence." What then,  concerns Paul in 1 Cor 15:12? He says that "some" are saying, "there is no resurrection of the dead," that is, the psychics cannot be raised from the "deadness of this existence" to spiritual life! For according to Valentinian exegesis, the "resurrection of the dead" is "recognition of the truth" spoken by those who have gnosis."

From: "The Gnostic Paul" (Gnostic exegesis of the Pauline letters) by Elaine Pagels.

So you believe dead men can walk. How nice. If I recall, the only woman who actually saw the ascension, in this myth, said that Jesus was as tall as the clouds. I guess that like Elastic man the could just keep on stretching to the moon and beyond. Have you not heard that you are to put away childish things.

Have a look at what scholars are doing to your foolish notions. You might just need to listen to the beginning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5beZSE8gxo

No, thanks. I have something better to do and attend the presanctified liturgy in about 30 minutes. May God bless you and free you from delusion.
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Offline nicodemus144

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #81 on: March 26, 2014, 05:05:30 PM »
the more i see of things like this, the more i realize i can't run fast enough into Orthodoxy.
“Does our law judge a man before it hears him and knows what he is doing?” -John 7:51 (NKJV)

I was investigating Orthodox Christianity.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #82 on: March 26, 2014, 05:26:22 PM »
I hate to disagree & I do not mean to offend, but this verse you are referring to is slightly misquoted here & it changes it's meaning greatly.
 From the Gospel of Thomas
Do you have the Greek so that we can compare the Gnosis translation with yours?
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 05:26:32 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline Laird

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #83 on: March 26, 2014, 06:05:09 PM »
I am an historian specializing in 1st century church hierarchy. My studies have included many gnostic texts and learning about different gnostic sects. Having this background, I wonder if you have studied your own faith's history, since many of the claims you make are false and many of the criticisms you have for orthodox Christianity are applicable also to man gnostic groups.

As for my own view of Gnosticism, my sentiments are those of David Bentley Hart, who stated that one only has to read gnostic scriptures to see why they were rejected by the Church.

Constantine's new Church rejected Gnostic text and theologies of Universalism and equality because they wanted to keep women as chattel and not as equal. They liked the pyramidal hierarchical demography of Rome and could not likely fathom the more communistic flat demographic pyramid that Gnostic Christianity showed. Rome also wanted nice quiet sheep to fleece and Gnostic Christian thinkers would have been harder to control and manipulate and that was the political reason for choosing the Christian.

Rome wanted the Roman boot licking Jesus and not the Jewish militant one.

I take it you do not believe in equality either. Right?

Regards
DL

Constantine did not create a "new" Church. There is no evidence of that. All he did was stop the persecution of Christians. Gnosticism was already rejected in the 2nd century. Rejecting Gnosticism had nothing to do with the equality of women.

Would Christianity be the same if Jesus was not thought of as God and a part of the Trinity?

No it would not. If Jesus was just a man, we would still be waiting for a redeemer. Right.

I have a rather long piece on how Constantine basically forced the trinity concept down Christianity's throat by rigging the vote with threats and will post it if you do not want to validate or accept my statement on your own.

Regards
DL

 

Constantine only called the council, he did not force the Trinity on them or rig the votes. And although the pre-Nicene Church did not have a developed Trinitarian terminology prior to the council, the Trinity was definitely not a novel doctrine. St. Ignatius of Antioch (107AD) clearly believed in the deity of Christ; he calls Jesus 'God' 13 times.

Why would I accept your statement on its own? All you've done on this thread is distort and misrepresent the Church's teachings.

Please read post 54 that way I do not have to take bandwidth.

I do not distort or misrepresent I do accentuate and show logical inferences.

If you are going to accuse then you should show what t you are talking about if you want me to take you seriously and not think you are just a mentally lazy whiner.

You don't misrepresent the Church's teachings? Then why do you continuously claim that the Church discriminates against women and homosexuals? Everyone on this thread has told you that the Church does not discriminate against women and homosexuals and yet you refuse to accept it. You make ridiculous statements like in reply #35 claiming "Constantine's new Church rejected Gnostic text and theologies of Universalism and equality because they wanted to keep women as chattel and not as equal." This is definitely not logical. I don't even know how you came to this conclusion and you started out making false assertions.

Quote
I have called God a genocidal son murderer many more time than that so does that make it any more true than St. Ignatius of Antioch calling Jesus God just because I do it often?

He, after all, has no more credibility than I do. In fact he has less as he was making money from the Church. He had more reason to lie then than I do now.

Regards
DL

How does he not have no more credibility than you? He was a disciple of St. John. Making money from the Church? You're just making up random stuff to discredit him.
"Do not deceive yourself with idle hopes that in the world to come you will find life if you have not tried to find it in this present world." - Theophanis the Monk

Offline LBK

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #84 on: March 26, 2014, 06:12:03 PM »
I hate to disagree & I do not mean to offend, but this verse you are referring to is slightly misquoted here & it changes it's meaning greatly.
 From the Gospel of Thomas
Do you have the Greek so that we can compare the Gnosis translation with yours?

Paging Ralph Ellis ....  ;)
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #85 on: March 26, 2014, 07:44:21 PM »
I hate to disagree & I do not mean to offend, but this verse you are referring to is slightly misquoted here & it changes it's meaning greatly.
 From the Gospel of Thomas
Do you have the Greek so that we can compare the Gnosis translation with yours?

Paging Ralph Ellis ....  ;)

 :-* :laugh:

you do realize he googles his own name and that's how he sees when people discuss him internet-wide.....

Don't keep invoking the Beetlejuice....
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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #86 on: March 26, 2014, 07:48:50 PM »
Nothing is divine that was not labelled so by a man.

You go ahead and trust what ancient men wrote. They were real bright back then as compared to today.

Regards
DL



Truth is not determined by a calendar.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #87 on: March 26, 2014, 07:50:06 PM »
Doesn't the Gnostic "gospel" of Thomas say that Mary Magdalene had to become a man in order to be saved? What was that about gnostics and equality?
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Velsigne

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #88 on: March 28, 2014, 01:49:20 AM »
the more i see of things like this, the more i realize i can't run fast enough into Orthodoxy.

That's a wise thing to do.  Godspeed!
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Offline nicodemus144

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Re: Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?
« Reply #89 on: March 28, 2014, 01:50:42 AM »
the more i see of things like this, the more i realize i can't run fast enough into Orthodoxy.

That's a wise thing to do.  Godspeed!

thank you.  :angel:
“Does our law judge a man before it hears him and knows what he is doing?” -John 7:51 (NKJV)

I was investigating Orthodox Christianity.