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Author Topic: Re: A Few of Drake's Points  (Read 1271 times) Average Rating: 0
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ialmisry
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« Reply #90 on: March 25, 2014, 08:14:24 AM »

I learned a long time ago not to waste my time arguing with someone who has already made up their mind on an issue. It is obvious that you are not interested in serious honest dialogue. The tone of your reply is offensive. When you call a major Saint of the Church a "scum bag" you show that you are incapable to constructive and serious discourse. Actually, your response shows the truth of my argument, Calvinism produces spiritual pride.
I get paid to minister to my flock, not to waste my time arguing with a fanatic who is only here on this site to insult us.

Fr. John W. Morris

Perhaps is just "spiritual" repugnance.

All of this fruitless Churchism makes people sick.

Just saying..  Roll Eyes
People are sick already.

If they don't want to come to the hospital, they will stay sick.

Just saying. Roll Eyes
You should "minister" to the "lost sheep" . If you minister only to the "saved" what reward will you have? When a man is in the pit then is when you should reach your hand to lift him up, not when he is sitting on the ground.
He shouldn't cry if he is biting the hand extended to life him out of the pit, because he prefers to wallow in the pit.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
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« Reply #91 on: March 25, 2014, 08:15:59 AM »

The preaching of Christ seems to focus more on charity and well doing, well being, socialism, humanity, morality like that is the Church, not some institution. The institutional religion is what condemned and murdered Christ and against whom Christ focussed most of his refutation.

Whether the Jews held it up properly or not, didn't Christ institute that same religion?

Then why aren't Christians, Jews?

The Jews of yesterday are Christians. The Jews of today are not.

Christianity has some concepts that are totally foreign and antijewish.

That is an honest Christian there.

Based on Rashi's 11th century teachings; and not on the Apostle's 1st century teachings.

You don't believe the apostle's 1st century teachings:

Rom. 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Rom. 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

Rom. 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

1 John 3:4 Sin is a transgression of the law


I can give you a lot of NT quote showing that the Law has changed.

I think the Apostles were confused.

Judaism is an offshoot of paganism. Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism...
Christianity isn't an offshot Judaism, nor Judaism an offshoot of paganism, so I can't put much stock in your knowledge of paganism.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #92 on: March 25, 2014, 08:24:01 AM »

As for the Panarion you quote, the Nazarenes deny the Holy Trinity. This is quite enough to show them as heretics, which is exactly what St Epiphanius was doing.

I reject the Trinity and coming from you people I take it as a compliment that you think I'm a heretic.

Then what are you doing on a forum dedicated to the discussion of Christianity, and Orthodox Christianity at that? You won't convince anyone here of your heresies and crackpot ideas.

I was being attacked on this forum and I kept getting referrals from this page because I have written the most extensive refutation of Eastern Orthodoxy ever penned and so since my work was being discussed I found it immediately relevant to show up.

A pre-schooler knows more about Orthodoxy than you do.

In one point (Point 46) you say that God is seen as "Divine Darkness" according to Lossky, then you quote the Bible to say "God is Light".
The Bible also says "These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly at the mountain from the midst of the fire, of the cloud and of the thick darkness, with a great voice, and He added no more. He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me. 23"And when you heard the voice from the midst of the darkness, while the mountain was burning with fire, you came near to me, all the heads of your tribes and your elders." Deuteronomy 5:22-3

On another point you stated that Icons are Nestorian.
The Nestorians would be surprised at that, as they are iconoclast and their namesake's theology leaves no room for the theology of the icon.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
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« Reply #93 on: March 25, 2014, 08:35:41 AM »

What more is there to write? Calvinism was officially condemned by the Eastern Orthodox Church as heretical by the Council of Jerusalem Bethlehem in 1672.

By no means am I encouraging you to continue any engagement with Olivianus/Drake, but he's pretty clearly not a Calvinist (anymore) and rejects Christianity altogether.
Yes, it seems he is a Olivianian, a sect that was begotten by him and in all likelihood will die with him.  Since the Olivianians are not legitimate children of Abraham, Moses or Christ, but the estranged child of Calvin, they need not detain us.

 laugh

The Natsarim sect is the original sect sir.

http://drakeshelton.com/2013/07/07/the-natsarim-the-original-messianic-sect/
And they died out.  Your adoption of their mistakes in your own hasn't resurrected them, nor do Zombies make up a living faith.

The Church, not being a sect, of course has continued on.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #94 on: March 25, 2014, 08:36:54 AM »


Your religion is a calculated rejection of the bible and the jewish people, messiah being one of those jewish people you Christians despise.  


Orthodox church services, hymns and prayers are stuffed with passages and whole sections from the Bible

Butchered versions from your greek TRANSLATIONS.

Which were translated by the Hebrews before the birth of Christ, and predate the Jews' Masoretic text.


I have no absolute commitment to the masoretic text and agree with your church in many points on this issue. However, do you believe the original was in greek or hebrew?
Doesn't matter, as we do not have the original.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
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« Reply #95 on: March 25, 2014, 08:38:49 AM »

The preaching of Christ seems to focus more on charity and well doing, well being, socialism, humanity, morality like that is the Church, not some institution. The institutional religion is what condemned and murdered Christ and against whom Christ focussed most of his refutation.

Whether the Jews held it up properly or not, didn't Christ institute that same religion?

Your religion teaches the rejection of that same religion:

"Canon XXIX.

Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord’s Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians.  But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ."

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.viii.vii.iii.xxxiv.html

Your religion is a calculated rejection of the bible and the jewish people, messiah being one of those jewish people you Christians despise. 

What Bible?

Most of them. Pick one. The most used christian bible I am aware of is the nasb. Would you like me to refute your religion with the nasb or another version?
Not translation.  I'm not limited to English, so I don't care what English translation you use.  I mean version: Samaritan?  Masoretic? Septuagint?  Vulgate?....
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
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« Reply #96 on: March 25, 2014, 08:41:02 AM »

“Drake makes the point that in the New Testament the titles “presbyter” literally elder, and “eposkopos,” overseerer or Bishop are used interchangeably. That is correct. However, the New Testament was written while the Apostles were still alive. Drake does not consider what happened when they began to die. We know from the example of St. Matthias, and historical documents such as the writings of St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Clement of Rome, and St. Irenaeus of Lyons that when the Apostles realized that Christ was not coming again during their lifetime, that they appointed successors, who were called Bishops to distinguish them from the Presbyters. Thus, although it is only hinted at in the New Testament, we know from the history of the Church that the Apostles left the leadership of the Church in the hands of Bishops who acted as their successors. The Apostles acted as Bishops over the Churches they founded. For example in Acts 14:23, refers to the ordination of priests for the Churches they founded by Sts. Paul and Barnabas; “And when they had appointed elders for them in every church, with prayer and fasting they committed them to the Lord in whom they believed.”  The Greek word translaed “appointed” really means ordained, and “elders” is “presbyters” which is the source of our English word Priests.”

>>>The problem is Deut. 4:1-3, 12:29-32, does not allow innovation like that. The Bible teaches the regulative principle.
An assertion is not an argument.
That's right, which is how your assertion in bold fails as an argument. Unless you are a Samaritan, in which you haven't added the books of Joshua and thereafter in violation of Deuteronomy.  But you then would have other problems.

The regulative principle: Lev 10:1-2 [obj. Exo 30:9 C.R. Lev 16:12 He took coals from an non-commanded source and not from the Altar], Duet 12:29-32 [obj. Temple/Tabernacle sacrificial service ans. Mat 15:7, Jer 7:31], Duet 4:2 [All of life], Jer 7:31, Num 15:39, Mat 15:7, Col 2:20-23 kjv "will worship".  Tabernacle Exo 25:9 ; Temple 1 Chron 28:11-19, 2 Chron 29:25.
First, get your story straight: you deny Christianity but then quote its NT as Scripture.

Once you have gotten your scattered thoughts straight on what is scripture, get back to me.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
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« Reply #97 on: March 25, 2014, 08:47:49 AM »


Your religion is a calculated rejection of the bible and the jewish people, messiah being one of those jewish people you Christians despise.  


Orthodox church services, hymns and prayers are stuffed with passages and whole sections from the Bible

Butchered versions from your greek TRANSLATIONS.

Quote
far more than any other Christian tradition. As for the Messiah, who do you say he is, Olivianus?

The messiah. Did you mean to ask another more specific question?



Greek translations? The Septuagint (LXX) is the oldest extant OT, and it is in Greek. The originals of the NT books were also written in Greek.

I was talking about the New Covenant. The original writings of the New Covenant were in hebrew:

http://drakeshelton.com/2013/07/10/was-the-new-testament-originally-written-in-hebrew/

http://drakeshelton.com/2013/08/01/excursus-on-the-semitic-roots-of-the-new-testament/
Luke and John, and all the Epistles, and Revelation, were originally written in Greek.

The "Hebrew" you cite is Aramaic. And it is irrelevant, as we don't have it.

Quote
As for the Messiah, I asked a straightforward question, which you have refused to answer. Here is is again: Who do you say the Messiah is, Olivianus?

No you didn't you want to play the metaphysics game with the hypostatic union don't you? Let's play. Yehoshuwah clearly stated that only the Father was the one God. John 17:1-4, 1 Cor. 8:6. Your God becoming flesh doctrine is pagan to the core. Yehoshuwah was produced out of the essence of the father. He is a derived being that pre-existed the creation.
First, get your story straight: you deny Christianity but then quote its NT as Scripture.

Once you have gotten your scattered thoughts straight on what is scripture, get back to me.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 08:48:39 AM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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« Reply #98 on: March 25, 2014, 08:50:49 AM »

The preaching of Christ seems to focus more on charity and well doing, well being, socialism, humanity, morality like that is the Church, not some institution. The institutional religion is what condemned and murdered Christ and against whom Christ focussed most of his refutation.

Whether the Jews held it up properly or not, didn't Christ institute that same religion?

Then why aren't Christians, Jews?

The Jews of yesterday are Christians. The Jews of today are not.

Christianity has some concepts that are totally foreign and antijewish.

That is an honest Christian there.

Based on Rashi's 11th century teachings; and not on the Apostle's 1st century teachings.

You don't believe the apostle's 1st century teachings:

Rom. 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Rom. 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

Rom. 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

1 John 3:4 Sin is a transgression of the law


I can give you a lot of NT quote showing that the Law has changed.

I think the Apostles were confused.

Judaism is an offshoot of paganism. Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism...
Christianity isn't an offshot Judaism, nor Judaism an offshoot of paganism, so I can't put much stock in your knowledge of paganism.

Most of Judaism mythology = Middle Eastern mythology that was prelevant among heathen peoples. Abraham himself according to the Bible came from the heathens. Some archeologists say that the jews were actually a caananite nomadic tribe and that Yahweh was at some point(initially?) heathen caananite deity and his wife was Astarte. The Documentary Hypothesis says the "Torah" "Pentateuch" was not written by Moses but had multiple authors. Some of the laws in the Torah and the stories in it are totally unappealing to intelligent ethics and values. It's clear history that before there ever was a "Judaism" there was "Paganism" and that "Christianity" sprang forth from "Judaism". Judaism seems to have some syncretic pagan parts and for sure Christianity has syncretic Jewish teachings and Christianity came forth from the background of Judaism and the religion of the Jews.
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"I will not attack your doctrines nor your creeds if they accord liberty to me. If they hold thought to be dangerous - if they aver that doubt is a crime, then I attack them one and all, because they enslave the minds of men."

Robert Green Ingersoll
ialmisry
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« Reply #99 on: March 25, 2014, 08:51:11 AM »

What more is there to write? Calvinism was officially condemned by the Eastern Orthodox Church as heretical by the Council of Jerusalem Bethlehem in 1672.

By no means am I encouraging you to continue any engagement with Olivianus/Drake, but he's pretty clearly not a Calvinist (anymore) and rejects Christianity altogether.

I am  not a Christian but Calvin's doctrines of grace are based on a patriarchal anthropology which I cannot escape being a bible believer. Your Marxist individualism is the basis for modern communism.
Marx as an individual wasn't raised in Orthodoxy, but in the Calvinist Evangelical church of Prussia.

What Bible is it that you believe in?
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #100 on: March 25, 2014, 09:04:28 AM »


Your religion is a calculated rejection of the bible and the jewish people, messiah being one of those jewish people you Christians despise.  


Orthodox church services, hymns and prayers are stuffed with passages and whole sections from the Bible

Butchered versions from your greek TRANSLATIONS.

Quote
far more than any other Christian tradition. As for the Messiah, who do you say he is, Olivianus?

The messiah. Did you mean to ask another more specific question?



Greek translations? The Septuagint (LXX) is the oldest extant OT, and it is in Greek. The originals of the NT books were also written in Greek.

I was talking about the New Covenant. The original writings of the New Covenant were in hebrew:

http://drakeshelton.com/2013/07/10/was-the-new-testament-originally-written-in-hebrew/

http://drakeshelton.com/2013/08/01/excursus-on-the-semitic-roots-of-the-new-testament/
Luke and John, and all the Epistles, and Revelation, were originally written in Greek.

The "Hebrew" you cite is Aramaic. And it is irrelevant, as we don't have it.

Quote
As for the Messiah, I asked a straightforward question, which you have refused to answer. Here is is again: Who do you say the Messiah is, Olivianus?

No you didn't you want to play the metaphysics game with the hypostatic union don't you? Let's play. Yehoshuwah clearly stated that only the Father was the one God. John 17:1-4, 1 Cor. 8:6. Your God becoming flesh doctrine is pagan to the core. Yehoshuwah was produced out of the essence of the father. He is a derived being that pre-existed the creation.
First, get your story straight: you deny Christianity but then quote its NT as Scripture.

Once you have gotten your scattered thoughts straight on what is scripture, get back to me.

Perhaps only to the Greek readers. There are no original manuscripts.

Do you think the Jewish Apostles would have not written the Gospels for the Jewish people? Perhaps there is a reason the Greek NT is dated so far away after Jesus' departure.
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"I will not attack your doctrines nor your creeds if they accord liberty to me. If they hold thought to be dangerous - if they aver that doubt is a crime, then I attack them one and all, because they enslave the minds of men."

Robert Green Ingersoll
ialmisry
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Hypatos
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« Reply #101 on: March 25, 2014, 09:08:05 AM »

The preaching of Christ seems to focus more on charity and well doing, well being, socialism, humanity, morality like that is the Church, not some institution. The institutional religion is what condemned and murdered Christ and against whom Christ focussed most of his refutation.

Whether the Jews held it up properly or not, didn't Christ institute that same religion?

Then why aren't Christians, Jews?

The Jews of yesterday are Christians. The Jews of today are not.

Christianity has some concepts that are totally foreign and antijewish.

That is an honest Christian there.

Based on Rashi's 11th century teachings; and not on the Apostle's 1st century teachings.

You don't believe the apostle's 1st century teachings:

Rom. 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Rom. 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

Rom. 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

1 John 3:4 Sin is a transgression of the law


I can give you a lot of NT quote showing that the Law has changed.

I think the Apostles were confused.

Judaism is an offshoot of paganism. Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism...
Christianity isn't an offshot Judaism, nor Judaism an offshoot of paganism, so I can't put much stock in your knowledge of paganism.

Most of Judaism mythology = Middle Eastern mythology that was prelevant among heathen peoples. Abraham himself according to the Bible came from the heathens. Some archeologists say that the jews were actually a caananite nomadic tribe and that Yahweh was at some point(initially?) heathen caananite deity and his wife was Astarte. The Documentary Hypothesis says the "Torah" "Pentateuch" was not written by Moses but had multiple authors. Some of the laws in the Torah and the stories in it are totally unappealing to intelligent ethics and values. It's clear history that before there ever was a "Judaism" there was "Paganism" and that "Christianity" sprang forth from "Judaism". Judaism seems to have some syncretic pagan parts and for sure Christianity has syncretic Jewish teachings and Christianity came forth from the background of Judaism and the religion of the Jews.
I haven't asked you to barf up more rancid bites of pseudoscholarship that some "experts" have prechewed for you, such as "Most of Judaism mythology = Middle Eastern mythology that was prelevant among heathen peoples."  For one thing, "most" =/= "all."

The Bible says that Abraham came from the heathen? Oh, where does it say that?

Yes, I'm aware of the theory of a Yahweh-Astarte pair, and the meagre evidence twisted into such a narrative.  The Biblical narrative of the Hebrews falling into Canaanite paganism and assimilating the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob into it fits better.

The documentary hypothesis is for one thing, plural: its partisans can't agree amongst themselves on it.  Since the Pentateuch/Torah doesn't say that Moses wrote it, there doesn't seem to be much point on arguing it.

"Some of the laws in the Torah and the stories in it are totally unappealing to intelligent ethics and values." I know that they don't appeal to the smug who think they know better, and don't want anything prove the contrary.  Atheism-the opiate of the dissolute.

Since Judaism dates from the time of Christ, and their Torah warns them of the Canaanite paganism over a thousand years before that, of course paganism (some form of it at least) predates it.  Han China predates the Declaration of Independence, but the 1776 date doesn't make America an offshoot of Han China.

Since the New Testament predates the Talmud, how did the former's Christianity "spring forth from" the latter's Judaism?

Before getting into the issue of syncretism, I need to know that you know the meaning of the term: give examples.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
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« Reply #102 on: March 25, 2014, 09:19:22 AM »


Your religion is a calculated rejection of the bible and the jewish people, messiah being one of those jewish people you Christians despise.  


Orthodox church services, hymns and prayers are stuffed with passages and whole sections from the Bible

Butchered versions from your greek TRANSLATIONS.

Quote
far more than any other Christian tradition. As for the Messiah, who do you say he is, Olivianus?

The messiah. Did you mean to ask another more specific question?



Greek translations? The Septuagint (LXX) is the oldest extant OT, and it is in Greek. The originals of the NT books were also written in Greek.

I was talking about the New Covenant. The original writings of the New Covenant were in hebrew:

http://drakeshelton.com/2013/07/10/was-the-new-testament-originally-written-in-hebrew/

http://drakeshelton.com/2013/08/01/excursus-on-the-semitic-roots-of-the-new-testament/
Luke and John, and all the Epistles, and Revelation, were originally written in Greek.

The "Hebrew" you cite is Aramaic. And it is irrelevant, as we don't have it.

Quote
As for the Messiah, I asked a straightforward question, which you have refused to answer. Here is is again: Who do you say the Messiah is, Olivianus?

No you didn't you want to play the metaphysics game with the hypostatic union don't you? Let's play. Yehoshuwah clearly stated that only the Father was the one God. John 17:1-4, 1 Cor. 8:6. Your God becoming flesh doctrine is pagan to the core. Yehoshuwah was produced out of the essence of the father. He is a derived being that pre-existed the creation.
First, get your story straight: you deny Christianity but then quote its NT as Scripture.

Once you have gotten your scattered thoughts straight on what is scripture, get back to me.

Perhaps only to the Greek readers. There are no original manuscripts.
Since there are no original manuscripts, its language is irrelevant, as no reader can ipso facto read it.  One has to go by the text he has, not the one he conjectures.

Do you think the Jewish Apostles would have not written the Gospels for the Jewish people? Perhaps there is a reason the Greek NT is dated so far away after Jesus' departure.

Our earliest biography of Alexander the Great, who conquered all the known world, comes from writers who lived over two centuries after he died.  The latest Greek NT (i.e. John) written 70 years later by someone who knew Christ during His earthly ministry isn't "dated so are away," particularly given the prevalence of Greek writing in Palestine and among the rest of the Jews and Hebrews of the Roman World.
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« Reply #103 on: March 25, 2014, 09:22:15 AM »

frjohnmorris

Quote
What more is there to write? Calvinism was officially condemned by the Eastern Orthodox Church as heretical by the Council of Jerusalem Bethlehem in 1672.

And the Bible was condemned as judaizing at The Council of Laodicea. I care not what your councils have declared.
LOL.  The feeling is mutual.

Where did you get your Bible from?
Quote
Just a few Bible verses are enough to demolish Calvinism;  I Timothy 2:4 that states that God, "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Restating your arguments does not somehow brush away refutations already given.
Physician, heal thyself.
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« Reply #104 on: March 25, 2014, 10:07:13 AM »

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Christ's baptism example is totally ad hoc as are the other examples.

On what basis are they ad hoc, and why would their being ad hoc be significant?

BTW, still waiting for your answers on the identity of the Messiah and on the Incarnation.

Those passages nowhere say the the one God is one being and three persons nor do they imply it.

The Messiah's name was Yehoshuwah. He was a caused being that pre-existed the creation. There was no incarnation. God did not be come man. A caused being that pre-existed the creation became man. 
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« Reply #105 on: March 25, 2014, 10:19:07 AM »

As for the Panarion you quote, the Nazarenes deny the Holy Trinity. This is quite enough to show them as heretics, which is exactly what St Epiphanius was doing.

I reject the Trinity and coming from you people I take it as a compliment that you think I'm a heretic.

Then what are you doing on a forum dedicated to the discussion of Christianity, and Orthodox Christianity at that? You won't convince anyone here of your heresies and crackpot ideas.

I was being attacked on this forum and I kept getting referrals from this page because I have written the most extensive refutation of Eastern Orthodoxy ever penned and so since my work was being discussed I found it immediately relevant to show up.

A pre-schooler knows more about Orthodoxy than you do.

In one point (Point 46) you say that God is seen as "Divine Darkness" according to Lossky, then you quote the Bible to say "God is Light".

The problem is that you conflate what Psuedo Dionysios the Aeropagite says (not Lossky), and what the Bible says; as if they contradict, when there is no contradiction between the two. In fact, Orthodox affirm God is Light, the entire argument of St. Gregory Palamas against Balaam is evidence of that.

Those who deny that God is light, and that God's light and energy did not shine and emanate from Christ on Mt. Tabor are anathema in the Orthodox Church.

On another point you stated that Icons are Nestorian. (Point 43) Which is... somewhat true. Nestorians do use Icons. However, you take this to mean that somehow, Christ's Divinity is not represented in the Icon and only his humanity is. To which I reply, have you EVER looked at an icon? (if you still cannot see Divinity represented here, just look at the Halo with the Greek o on "I AM" on it.)









Your essence and energies doctrine is self contradictory. The doctrine of the uncreated energies means that God is ontologically economical. The fact that the energies could have been different is irrelevant. Either way is an eternal economy.

You don't believe that God is light. You think God imported an economical action.

"On another point you stated that Icons are Nestorian. (Point 43) Which is... somewhat true. Nestorians do use Icons. However, you take this to mean that somehow, Christ's Divinity is not represented in the Icon and only his humanity is. To which I reply, have you EVER looked at an icon? (if you still cannot see Divinity represented here, just look at the Halo with the Greek o on "I AM" on it.)"

>>>You totally avoided my argument. Anyway, after I abandoned the trinity I abandoned my view of images of Messiah. I don't have a problem with images of messiah now. He is not the one God. Make as many images of him as you like.
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« Reply #106 on: March 25, 2014, 10:21:59 AM »

The preaching of Christ seems to focus more on charity and well doing, well being, socialism, humanity, morality like that is the Church, not some institution. The institutional religion is what condemned and murdered Christ and against whom Christ focussed most of his refutation.

Whether the Jews held it up properly or not, didn't Christ institute that same religion?

Your religion teaches the rejection of that same religion:

"Canon XXIX.

Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord’s Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians.  But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ."

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.viii.vii.iii.xxxiv.html

Your religion is a calculated rejection of the bible and the jewish people, messiah being one of those jewish people you Christians despise. 

What Bible?

Most of them. Pick one. The most used christian bible I am aware of is the nasb. Would you like me to refute your religion with the nasb or another version?
Not translation.  I'm not limited to English, so I don't care what English translation you use.  I mean version: Samaritan?  Masoretic? Septuagint?  Vulgate?....

If I had to choose from one of those it would be the LXX.
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« Reply #107 on: March 25, 2014, 10:23:48 AM »

“Drake makes the point that in the New Testament the titles “presbyter” literally elder, and “eposkopos,” overseerer or Bishop are used interchangeably. That is correct. However, the New Testament was written while the Apostles were still alive. Drake does not consider what happened when they began to die. We know from the example of St. Matthias, and historical documents such as the writings of St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Clement of Rome, and St. Irenaeus of Lyons that when the Apostles realized that Christ was not coming again during their lifetime, that they appointed successors, who were called Bishops to distinguish them from the Presbyters. Thus, although it is only hinted at in the New Testament, we know from the history of the Church that the Apostles left the leadership of the Church in the hands of Bishops who acted as their successors. The Apostles acted as Bishops over the Churches they founded. For example in Acts 14:23, refers to the ordination of priests for the Churches they founded by Sts. Paul and Barnabas; “And when they had appointed elders for them in every church, with prayer and fasting they committed them to the Lord in whom they believed.”  The Greek word translaed “appointed” really means ordained, and “elders” is “presbyters” which is the source of our English word Priests.”

>>>The problem is Deut. 4:1-3, 12:29-32, does not allow innovation like that. The Bible teaches the regulative principle.
An assertion is not an argument.
That's right, which is how your assertion in bold fails as an argument. Unless you are a Samaritan, in which you haven't added the books of Joshua and thereafter in violation of Deuteronomy.  But you then would have other problems.

The regulative principle: Lev 10:1-2 [obj. Exo 30:9 C.R. Lev 16:12 He took coals from an non-commanded source and not from the Altar], Duet 12:29-32 [obj. Temple/Tabernacle sacrificial service ans. Mat 15:7, Jer 7:31], Duet 4:2 [All of life], Jer 7:31, Num 15:39, Mat 15:7, Col 2:20-23 kjv "will worship".  Tabernacle Exo 25:9 ; Temple 1 Chron 28:11-19, 2 Chron 29:25.
First, get your story straight: you deny Christianity but then quote its NT as Scripture.

Once you have gotten your scattered thoughts straight on what is scripture, get back to me.

The writings of the Gospels and Rav Shaul are Natsarim documents not christian. Your religion began with the false apostles and Justin Martyr. It has already been admitted that the Natsarim were first.
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« Reply #108 on: March 25, 2014, 10:25:34 AM »

What more is there to write? Calvinism was officially condemned by the Eastern Orthodox Church as heretical by the Council of Jerusalem Bethlehem in 1672.

By no means am I encouraging you to continue any engagement with Olivianus/Drake, but he's pretty clearly not a Calvinist (anymore) and rejects Christianity altogether.

I am  not a Christian but Calvin's doctrines of grace are based on a patriarchal anthropology which I cannot escape being a bible believer. Your Marxist individualism is the basis for modern communism.
Marx as an individual wasn't raised in Orthodoxy, but in the Calvinist Evangelical church of Prussia.

What Bible is it that you believe in?

Marx held your pelagian anthropology as I have already described in detail.

The different versions of the bible are the same book.
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« Reply #109 on: March 25, 2014, 10:27:33 AM »


Your religion is a calculated rejection of the bible and the jewish people, messiah being one of those jewish people you Christians despise.  


Orthodox church services, hymns and prayers are stuffed with passages and whole sections from the Bible

Butchered versions from your greek TRANSLATIONS.

Quote
far more than any other Christian tradition. As for the Messiah, who do you say he is, Olivianus?

The messiah. Did you mean to ask another more specific question?



Greek translations? The Septuagint (LXX) is the oldest extant OT, and it is in Greek. The originals of the NT books were also written in Greek.

I was talking about the New Covenant. The original writings of the New Covenant were in hebrew:

http://drakeshelton.com/2013/07/10/was-the-new-testament-originally-written-in-hebrew/

http://drakeshelton.com/2013/08/01/excursus-on-the-semitic-roots-of-the-new-testament/
Luke and John, and all the Epistles, and Revelation, were originally written in Greek.

The "Hebrew" you cite is Aramaic. And it is irrelevant, as we don't have it.

Quote
As for the Messiah, I asked a straightforward question, which you have refused to answer. Here is is again: Who do you say the Messiah is, Olivianus?

No you didn't you want to play the metaphysics game with the hypostatic union don't you? Let's play. Yehoshuwah clearly stated that only the Father was the one God. John 17:1-4, 1 Cor. 8:6. Your God becoming flesh doctrine is pagan to the core. Yehoshuwah was produced out of the essence of the father. He is a derived being that pre-existed the creation.
First, get your story straight: you deny Christianity but then quote its NT as Scripture.

Once you have gotten your scattered thoughts straight on what is scripture, get back to me.

Perhaps only to the Greek readers. There are no original manuscripts.
Since there are no original manuscripts, its language is irrelevant, as no reader can ipso facto read it.  One has to go by the text he has, not the one he conjectures.

Do you think the Jewish Apostles would have not written the Gospels for the Jewish people? Perhaps there is a reason the Greek NT is dated so far away after Jesus' departure.

Our earliest biography of Alexander the Great, who conquered all the known world, comes from writers who lived over two centuries after he died.  The latest Greek NT (i.e. John) written 70 years later by someone who knew Christ during His earthly ministry isn't "dated so are away," particularly given the prevalence of Greek writing in Palestine and among the rest of the Jews and Hebrews of the Roman World.

You are totally avoiding the massive documentation I have already given even from your own celebrated Historians that the original writings were in semitic languages.
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« Reply #110 on: March 25, 2014, 10:41:26 AM »

Lord have mercy on us all.
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« Reply #111 on: March 25, 2014, 10:52:45 AM »

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« Reply #112 on: March 25, 2014, 11:11:30 AM »

This must be the most amazing, multi cultural, academic cross disciplinary conspiracy of all time. That has has to be the only answer. Centuries of multi continental, cross cultural conspiracy.

There are pages and pages of informative links by supporters and adherents to the OP's beliefs regarding these "Nastarim" on multiple search engines. Many, in fact, link to his detailed work.

But of the tens of thousands and thousands of accredited institutes of higher education worldwide, there seem to be no academic papers, cross references or citations or any serious mention at all. This is amazing in that "serious" peer reviewed papers exist and may easily be found after a cursory search on all manner of cults and alternative belief systems including witchcraft. No academics seem to have published a critique or analysis of the OP's works. This hidden "knowledge"  that the OP shares must be so dangerous to the world's status quo, that a vast conspiracy of worldwide silence spanning the centuries and the continent's involving scholars of Christian, Jewish, Muslim, atheistic, agnostic, Hindu,Buddhist, animist and any other "ism" exists. From devout believers to outraged atheists, the knowledge of the OP is not analyzed by seemingly any of them.   All the more amazing in that the aforesaid opposing schools of thought can't seem to agree upon much of anything. Amazing...

Or like all vast conspiracy theories, it is complete and utter nonsense.

It's  time for Christians to stop casting pearls before swine and simply ignore this thread.

Dan Brown writes far better fiction.

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« Reply #113 on: March 25, 2014, 11:18:56 AM »

You are totally avoiding the massive documentation I have already given even from your own celebrated Historians that the original writings were in semitic languages.

A pile of bricks does not an edifice make, let alone a pile of

When you can produce the original writings, get back to us.
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« Reply #114 on: March 25, 2014, 11:21:55 AM »

As for the Panarion you quote, the Nazarenes deny the Holy Trinity. This is quite enough to show them as heretics, which is exactly what St Epiphanius was doing.

I reject the Trinity and coming from you people I take it as a compliment that you think I'm a heretic.

Then what are you doing on a forum dedicated to the discussion of Christianity, and Orthodox Christianity at that? You won't convince anyone here of your heresies and crackpot ideas.

I was being attacked on this forum and I kept getting referrals from this page because I have written the most extensive refutation of Eastern Orthodoxy ever penned and so since my work was being discussed I found it immediately relevant to show up.

This is good internetz.

LBK has never met a question should couldn't not answer. LBK, btw, is a woman.
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« Reply #115 on: March 25, 2014, 11:23:44 AM »

What more is there to write? Calvinism was officially condemned by the Eastern Orthodox Church as heretical by the Council of Jerusalem Bethlehem in 1672.

By no means am I encouraging you to continue any engagement with Olivianus/Drake, but he's pretty clearly not a Calvinist (anymore) and rejects Christianity altogether.

I am  not a Christian but Calvin's doctrines of grace are based on a patriarchal anthropology which I cannot escape being a bible believer. Your Marxist individualism is the basis for modern communism.
Marx as an individual wasn't raised in Orthodoxy, but in the Calvinist Evangelical church of Prussia.

What Bible is it that you believe in?

Marx held your pelagian anthropology as I have already described in detail.

The different versions of the bible are the same book.
No, the Jews lack the NT, the Kentucky Calvinists follow the Jews in removing the Anagignoskomena, and the Samaritans lack anything except the Torah.

So, which Bible is it?

And Marx is your sibling, not ours, no matter how much you try to deny your own.
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« Reply #116 on: March 25, 2014, 11:24:09 AM »

This must be the most amazing, multi cultural, academic cross disciplinary conspiracy of all time. That has has to be the only answer. Centuries of multi continental, cross cultural conspiracy.

There are pages and pages of informative links by supporters and adherents to the OP's beliefs regarding these "Nastarim" on multiple search engines. Many, in fact, link to his detailed work.

But of the tens of thousands and thousands of accredited institutes of higher education worldwide, there seem to be no academic papers, cross references or citations or any serious mention at all. This is amazing in that "serious" peer reviewed papers exist and may easily be found after a cursory search on all manner of cults and alternative belief systems including witchcraft. No academics seem to have published a critique or analysis of the OP's works. This hidden "knowledge"  that the OP shares must be so dangerous to the world's status quo, that a vast conspiracy of worldwide silence spanning the centuries and the continent's involving scholars of Christian, Jewish, Muslim, atheistic, agnostic, Hindu,Buddhist, animist and any other "ism" exists. From devout believers to outraged atheists, the knowledge of the OP is not analyzed by seemingly any of them.   All the more amazing in that the aforesaid opposing schools of thought can't seem to agree upon much of anything. Amazing...

Or like all vast conspiracy theories, it is complete and utter nonsense.

It's  time for Christians to stop casting pearls before swine and simply ignore this thread.

Dan Brown writes far better fiction.

he is not the OP. i am the OP. my thread was not about any of this and has been significantly derailed.  please do not associate me or my questions with any of this. thanks.

as far as i'm concerned, my thread ended at reply #35 on page 1.
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« Reply #117 on: March 25, 2014, 11:25:25 AM »

This must be the most amazing, multi cultural, academic cross disciplinary conspiracy of all time. That has has to be the only answer. Centuries of multi continental, cross cultural conspiracy.

There are pages and pages of informative links by supporters and adherents to the OP's beliefs regarding these "Nastarim" on multiple search engines. Many, in fact, link to his detailed work.

But of the tens of thousands and thousands of accredited institutes of higher education worldwide, there seem to be no academic papers, cross references or citations or any serious mention at all. This is amazing in that "serious" peer reviewed papers exist and may easily be found after a cursory search on all manner of cults and alternative belief systems including witchcraft. No academics seem to have published a critique or analysis of the OP's works. This hidden "knowledge"  that the OP shares must be so dangerous to the world's status quo, that a vast conspiracy of worldwide silence spanning the centuries and the continent's involving scholars of Christian, Jewish, Muslim, atheistic, agnostic, Hindu,Buddhist, animist and any other "ism" exists. From devout believers to outraged atheists, the knowledge of the OP is not analyzed by seemingly any of them.   All the more amazing in that the aforesaid opposing schools of thought can't seem to agree upon much of anything. Amazing...

Or like all vast conspiracy theories, it is complete and utter nonsense.

It's  time for Christians to stop casting pearls before swine and simply ignore this thread.

Dan Brown writes far better fiction.



Seeing that my posts are not the OP, your statements can all be ignored as embarrassments.

Where is my conspiracy theory? Have I ever stated that I am presenting some occult conspiracy? I thought I was quoting standard literature. So Epiphanius, Jerome and Eusebius are not credible writers? And here this whole time I have had to deal with these exact historians from the Christian Church. I must have been hallucinating.
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« Reply #118 on: March 25, 2014, 11:27:07 AM »

The doctrine of the uncreated energies means that God is ontologically economical.

Good luck developing an ontological account for a god who cares and is involved in the world without an ontology of economy as you put it.

I haven't gone back through this thread, could you offer a link or summation of what you believe to be a more adequate ontological account of the divine?

Thanks.
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« Reply #119 on: March 25, 2014, 11:28:51 AM »

This must be the most amazing, multi cultural, academic cross disciplinary conspiracy of all time. That has has to be the only answer. Centuries of multi continental, cross cultural conspiracy.

There are pages and pages of informative links by supporters and adherents to the OP's beliefs regarding these "Nastarim" on multiple search engines. Many, in fact, link to his detailed work.

But of the tens of thousands and thousands of accredited institutes of higher education worldwide, there seem to be no academic papers, cross references or citations or any serious mention at all. This is amazing in that "serious" peer reviewed papers exist and may easily be found after a cursory search on all manner of cults and alternative belief systems including witchcraft. No academics seem to have published a critique or analysis of the OP's works. This hidden "knowledge"  that the OP shares must be so dangerous to the world's status quo, that a vast conspiracy of worldwide silence spanning the centuries and the continent's involving scholars of Christian, Jewish, Muslim, atheistic, agnostic, Hindu,Buddhist, animist and any other "ism" exists. From devout believers to outraged atheists, the knowledge of the OP is not analyzed by seemingly any of them.   All the more amazing in that the aforesaid opposing schools of thought can't seem to agree upon much of anything. Amazing...

Or like all vast conspiracy theories, it is complete and utter nonsense.

It's  time for Christians to stop casting pearls before swine and simply ignore this thread.

Dan Brown writes far better fiction.

he is not the OP. i am the OP. my thread was not about any of this and has been significantly derailed.  please do not associate me or my questions with any of this. thanks.

as far as i'm concerned, my thread ended at reply #35 on page 1.

I stand corrected and profoundly apologize for my error.
 
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« Reply #120 on: March 25, 2014, 11:29:55 AM »

“Drake makes the point that in the New Testament the titles “presbyter” literally elder, and “eposkopos,” overseerer or Bishop are used interchangeably. That is correct. However, the New Testament was written while the Apostles were still alive. Drake does not consider what happened when they began to die. We know from the example of St. Matthias, and historical documents such as the writings of St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Clement of Rome, and St. Irenaeus of Lyons that when the Apostles realized that Christ was not coming again during their lifetime, that they appointed successors, who were called Bishops to distinguish them from the Presbyters. Thus, although it is only hinted at in the New Testament, we know from the history of the Church that the Apostles left the leadership of the Church in the hands of Bishops who acted as their successors. The Apostles acted as Bishops over the Churches they founded. For example in Acts 14:23, refers to the ordination of priests for the Churches they founded by Sts. Paul and Barnabas; “And when they had appointed elders for them in every church, with prayer and fasting they committed them to the Lord in whom they believed.”  The Greek word translaed “appointed” really means ordained, and “elders” is “presbyters” which is the source of our English word Priests.”

>>>The problem is Deut. 4:1-3, 12:29-32, does not allow innovation like that. The Bible teaches the regulative principle.
An assertion is not an argument.
That's right, which is how your assertion in bold fails as an argument. Unless you are a Samaritan, in which you haven't added the books of Joshua and thereafter in violation of Deuteronomy.  But you then would have other problems.

The regulative principle: Lev 10:1-2 [obj. Exo 30:9 C.R. Lev 16:12 He took coals from an non-commanded source and not from the Altar], Duet 12:29-32 [obj. Temple/Tabernacle sacrificial service ans. Mat 15:7, Jer 7:31], Duet 4:2 [All of life], Jer 7:31, Num 15:39, Mat 15:7, Col 2:20-23 kjv "will worship".  Tabernacle Exo 25:9 ; Temple 1 Chron 28:11-19, 2 Chron 29:25.
First, get your story straight: you deny Christianity but then quote its NT as Scripture.

Once you have gotten your scattered thoughts straight on what is scripture, get back to me.

The writings of the Gospels and Rav Shaul are Natsarim documents not christian. Your religion began with the false apostles and Justin Martyr. It has already been admitted that the Natsarim were first.

The first sect, yes, they were among the first sects.  But the Church preceded all sects, starting with the Messiah and His Apostles, whose Apostolic Truth Justin Martyr defended.

So, the Gospels and Writings of St. Paul documented in the King James Bible or the Statenbijbel-are they inspired and infallible as (at least) the Torah of the Masorites, yes or no?

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« Reply #121 on: March 25, 2014, 11:30:23 AM »

This must be the most amazing, multi cultural, academic cross disciplinary conspiracy of all time. That has has to be the only answer. Centuries of multi continental, cross cultural conspiracy.

There are pages and pages of informative links by supporters and adherents to the OP's beliefs regarding these "Nastarim" on multiple search engines. Many, in fact, link to his detailed work.

But of the tens of thousands and thousands of accredited institutes of higher education worldwide, there seem to be no academic papers, cross references or citations or any serious mention at all. This is amazing in that "serious" peer reviewed papers exist and may easily be found after a cursory search on all manner of cults and alternative belief systems including witchcraft. No academics seem to have published a critique or analysis of the OP's works. This hidden "knowledge"  that the OP shares must be so dangerous to the world's status quo, that a vast conspiracy of worldwide silence spanning the centuries and the continent's involving scholars of Christian, Jewish, Muslim, atheistic, agnostic, Hindu,Buddhist, animist and any other "ism" exists. From devout believers to outraged atheists, the knowledge of the OP is not analyzed by seemingly any of them.   All the more amazing in that the aforesaid opposing schools of thought can't seem to agree upon much of anything. Amazing...

Or like all vast conspiracy theories, it is complete and utter nonsense.

It's  time for Christians to stop casting pearls before swine and simply ignore this thread.

Dan Brown writes far better fiction.

he is not the OP. i am the OP. my thread was not about any of this and has been significantly derailed.  please do not associate me or my questions with any of this. thanks.

as far as i'm concerned, my thread ended at reply #35 on page 1.

I stand corrected and profoundly apologize for my error.
 

thank you kindly. God bless.
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« Reply #122 on: March 25, 2014, 11:30:50 AM »

What more is there to write? Calvinism was officially condemned by the Eastern Orthodox Church as heretical by the Council of Jerusalem Bethlehem in 1672.

By no means am I encouraging you to continue any engagement with Olivianus/Drake, but he's pretty clearly not a Calvinist (anymore) and rejects Christianity altogether.

I am  not a Christian but Calvin's doctrines of grace are based on a patriarchal anthropology which I cannot escape being a bible believer. Your Marxist individualism is the basis for modern communism.
Marx as an individual wasn't raised in Orthodoxy, but in the Calvinist Evangelical church of Prussia.

What Bible is it that you believe in?

Marx held your pelagian anthropology as I have already described in detail.

The different versions of the bible are the same book.
No, the Jews lack the NT


Quote
the Kentucky Calvinists follow the Jews in removing the Anagignoskomena, and the Samaritans lack anything except the Torah.


Tell me what bible you believe and I will show you you don't believe it.


Quote
So, which Bible is it?

All of them. At least ones that have some serious scholarship to them. Pick one and I'll show you you don't believe it.

Quote
And Marx is your sibling, not ours, no matter how much you try to deny your own.

Ad hoc. Why do you think this is an argument? Make an argument dude.

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« Reply #123 on: March 25, 2014, 11:32:29 AM »

The preaching of Christ seems to focus more on charity and well doing, well being, socialism, humanity, morality like that is the Church, not some institution. The institutional religion is what condemned and murdered Christ and against whom Christ focussed most of his refutation.

Whether the Jews held it up properly or not, didn't Christ institute that same religion?

Your religion teaches the rejection of that same religion:

"Canon XXIX.

Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord’s Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians.  But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ."

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.viii.vii.iii.xxxiv.html

Your religion is a calculated rejection of the bible and the jewish people, messiah being one of those jewish people you Christians despise. 

What Bible?

Most of them. Pick one. The most used christian bible I am aware of is the nasb. Would you like me to refute your religion with the nasb or another version?
Not translation.  I'm not limited to English, so I don't care what English translation you use.  I mean version: Samaritan?  Masoretic? Septuagint?  Vulgate?....

If I had to choose from one of those it would be the LXX.
That include the New Testament: Nestle-Aland, UBS, etc.? As inspired, that is.
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« Reply #124 on: March 25, 2014, 11:33:55 AM »

while i appreciate good inquiry, i'd really appreciate it if further discussion of Drake could occur in another thread and not here.

thanks!

I understand that you consider that it is at this point that your thread ended and others carried on for their own purposes.

First, I am sorry that I have come in late. Second, I do want to recomment a book that is fascinating in more than one way. It was written by two Protestant theologians but ends up endorsing the Eastern Orthodox view as expressed by Archpriest John Behr, Dean of the Saint Vladimir's Orthodox Theological Seminary, at page 28 (or Kindle location 936) of the Heresy of Orthodoxy by Andreas Kostenberger and Michael Kruger.
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« Reply #125 on: March 25, 2014, 11:34:13 AM »

As for the Panarion you quote, the Nazarenes deny the Holy Trinity. This is quite enough to show them as heretics, which is exactly what St Epiphanius was doing.

I reject the Trinity and coming from you people I take it as a compliment that you think I'm a heretic.

Then what are you doing on a forum dedicated to the discussion of Christianity, and Orthodox Christianity at that? You won't convince anyone here of your heresies and crackpot ideas.

I was being attacked on this forum and I kept getting referrals from this page because I have written the most extensive refutation of Eastern Orthodoxy ever penned and so since my work was being discussed I found it immediately relevant to show up.

A pre-schooler knows more about Orthodoxy than you do.

In one point (Point 46) you say that God is seen as "Divine Darkness" according to Lossky, then you quote the Bible to say "God is Light".

The problem is that you conflate what Psuedo Dionysios the Aeropagite says (not Lossky), and what the Bible says; as if they contradict, when there is no contradiction between the two. In fact, Orthodox affirm God is Light, the entire argument of St. Gregory Palamas against Balaam is evidence of that.

Those who deny that God is light, and that God's light and energy did not shine and emanate from Christ on Mt. Tabor are anathema in the Orthodox Church.

On another point you stated that Icons are Nestorian. (Point 43) Which is... somewhat true. Nestorians do use Icons. However, you take this to mean that somehow, Christ's Divinity is not represented in the Icon and only his humanity is. To which I reply, have you EVER looked at an icon? (if you still cannot see Divinity represented here, just look at the Halo with the Greek o on "I AM" on it.)









Your essence and energies doctrine is self contradictory. The doctrine of the uncreated energies means that God is ontologically economical. The fact that the energies could have been different is irrelevant. Either way is an eternal economy.

You don't believe that God is light. You think God imported an economical action.

"On another point you stated that Icons are Nestorian. (Point 43) Which is... somewhat true. Nestorians do use Icons. However, you take this to mean that somehow, Christ's Divinity is not represented in the Icon and only his humanity is. To which I reply, have you EVER looked at an icon? (if you still cannot see Divinity represented here, just look at the Halo with the Greek o on "I AM" on it.)"

>>>You totally avoided my argument. Anyway, after I abandoned the trinity I abandoned my view of images of Messiah. I don't have a problem with images of messiah now. He is not the one God. Make as many images of him as you like.
If He were not "I AM" as it says in the icon, we shouldn't make any image of Him.  Says so in Deuteronomy.
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« Reply #126 on: March 25, 2014, 11:35:34 AM »

Quote
Christ's baptism example is totally ad hoc as are the other examples.

On what basis are they ad hoc, and why would their being ad hoc be significant?

BTW, still waiting for your answers on the identity of the Messiah and on the Incarnation.

Those passages nowhere say the the one God is one being and three persons nor do they imply it.

The Messiah's name was Yehoshuwah. He was a caused being that pre-existed the creation. There was no incarnation. God did not be come man. A caused being that pre-existed the creation became man. 
So you repeat the Jehovah Witnesses errors as well.
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« Reply #127 on: March 25, 2014, 11:38:47 AM »

The doctrine of the uncreated energies means that God is ontologically economical.

Good luck developing an ontological account for a god who cares and is involved in the world without an ontology of economy as you put it.

There it is! You just admitted it. The energies are ontological, not the activity of a being.


Quote
I haven't gone back through this thread, could you offer a link or summation of what you believe to be a more adequate ontological account of the divine?

Ontological account? That is ambiguous. Ask a specific question and you will get a specific answer. Let's see what game is he going to play:

1. Oh we all know he wants to talk about ads right? No I don't believe in ads but you do! You think you don't but you do. Your construction terminates on a monad just like everyone else's pagan construction.  

Anyway here are two links where I deal with the heavy stuff:

http://drakeshelton.com/2013/12/22/reply-to-edward-feser-why-is-there-anything-at-all-its-simple/

http://drakeshelton.com/2013/12/04/is-divine-simplicity-necessary-for-yahwehs-aseity/
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« Reply #128 on: March 25, 2014, 11:39:29 AM »

.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 11:43:40 AM by nicodemus144 » Logged

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« Reply #129 on: March 25, 2014, 11:40:45 AM »

What more is there to write? Calvinism was officially condemned by the Eastern Orthodox Church as heretical by the Council of Jerusalem Bethlehem in 1672.

By no means am I encouraging you to continue any engagement with Olivianus/Drake, but he's pretty clearly not a Calvinist (anymore) and rejects Christianity altogether.

I am  not a Christian but Calvin's doctrines of grace are based on a patriarchal anthropology which I cannot escape being a bible believer. Your Marxist individualism is the basis for modern communism.
Marx as an individual wasn't raised in Orthodoxy, but in the Calvinist Evangelical church of Prussia.

What Bible is it that you believe in?

Marx held your pelagian anthropology as I have already described in detail.

The different versions of the bible are the same book.
No, the Jews lack the NT
Quote
the Kentucky Calvinists follow the Jews in removing the Anagignoskomena, and the Samaritans lack anything except the Torah.
Tell me what bible you believe and I will show you you don't believe it.
Evading the question:which do you believe in?

As for myself and my household, we follow the Lord:
http://www.apostoliki-diakonia.gr/bible/bible.asp
Quote
So, which Bible is it?

All of them. At least ones that have some serious scholarship to them. Pick one and I'll show you you don't believe it.
All of them don't agree, which means you believe in none of them.
Quote
And Marx is your sibling, not ours, no matter how much you try to deny your own.

Ad hoc. Why do you think this is an argument? Make an argument dude.
you first.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 11:41:13 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #130 on: March 25, 2014, 11:42:18 AM »

As for the Panarion you quote, the Nazarenes deny the Holy Trinity. This is quite enough to show them as heretics, which is exactly what St Epiphanius was doing.

I reject the Trinity and coming from you people I take it as a compliment that you think I'm a heretic.

Then what are you doing on a forum dedicated to the discussion of Christianity, and Orthodox Christianity at that? You won't convince anyone here of your heresies and crackpot ideas.

I was being attacked on this forum and I kept getting referrals from this page because I have written the most extensive refutation of Eastern Orthodoxy ever penned and so since my work was being discussed I found it immediately relevant to show up.

A pre-schooler knows more about Orthodoxy than you do.

In one point (Point 46) you say that God is seen as "Divine Darkness" according to Lossky, then you quote the Bible to say "God is Light".

The problem is that you conflate what Psuedo Dionysios the Aeropagite says (not Lossky), and what the Bible says; as if they contradict, when there is no contradiction between the two. In fact, Orthodox affirm God is Light, the entire argument of St. Gregory Palamas against Balaam is evidence of that.

Those who deny that God is light, and that God's light and energy did not shine and emanate from Christ on Mt. Tabor are anathema in the Orthodox Church.

On another point you stated that Icons are Nestorian. (Point 43) Which is... somewhat true. Nestorians do use Icons. However, you take this to mean that somehow, Christ's Divinity is not represented in the Icon and only his humanity is. To which I reply, have you EVER looked at an icon? (if you still cannot see Divinity represented here, just look at the Halo with the Greek o on "I AM" on it.)









Your essence and energies doctrine is self contradictory. The doctrine of the uncreated energies means that God is ontologically economical. The fact that the energies could have been different is irrelevant. Either way is an eternal economy.

You don't believe that God is light. You think God imported an economical action.

"On another point you stated that Icons are Nestorian. (Point 43) Which is... somewhat true. Nestorians do use Icons. However, you take this to mean that somehow, Christ's Divinity is not represented in the Icon and only his humanity is. To which I reply, have you EVER looked at an icon? (if you still cannot see Divinity represented here, just look at the Halo with the Greek o on "I AM" on it.)"

>>>You totally avoided my argument. Anyway, after I abandoned the trinity I abandoned my view of images of Messiah. I don't have a problem with images of messiah now. He is not the one God. Make as many images of him as you like.
If He were not "I AM" as it says in the icon, we shouldn't make any image of Him.  Says so in Deuteronomy.

You are conflating nominal with cardinal numerics. John 5:43 Yehoshuwah says he comes in the name of his Father. He did not say he was the same numeric thing as his Father.

The Trinity is heresy. Yehoshuwah was subordinate to the Father, ontologically, not just functionally,

John 14: 28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

John 5: 19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever [e]the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

1 Cor. 11:3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

John 8: 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’;

John 20: 17 Jesus *said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’”
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« Reply #131 on: March 25, 2014, 11:42:50 AM »

I must have been hallucinating.
now that's a self evident truth.  Too bad the speaker lacks the self awareness to see it.
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« Reply #132 on: March 25, 2014, 11:44:56 AM »

You are conflating nominal with cardinal numerics. John 5:43 Yehoshuwah says he comes in the name of his Father. He did not say he was the same numeric thing as his Father.

The Trinity is heresy. Yehoshuwah was subordinate to the Father, ontologically, not just functionally,

John 14: 28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

John 5: 19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever [e]the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

1 Cor. 11:3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

John 8: 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’;

John 20: 17 Jesus *said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’”
So you are asserting that John (and by extension, the rest of the NT as in the King James Bible, etc.) record what Jesus actually said?  Did they so record infallibly by inspiration?
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« Reply #133 on: March 25, 2014, 11:46:42 AM »

The doctrine of the uncreated energies means that God is ontologically economical.

Good luck developing an ontological account for a god who cares and is involved in the world without an ontology of economy as you put it.

There it is! You just admitted it. The energies are ontological, not the activity of a being.


Quote
I haven't gone back through this thread, could you offer a link or summation of what you believe to be a more adequate ontological account of the divine?

Ontological account? That is ambiguous. Ask a specific question and you will get a specific answer. Let's see what game is he going to play:

1. Oh we all know he wants to talk about ads right? No I don't believe in ads but you do! You think you don't but you do. Your construction terminates on a monad just like everyone else's pagan construction.  

Anyway here are two links where I deal with the heavy stuff:

http://drakeshelton.com/2013/12/22/reply-to-edward-feser-why-is-there-anything-at-all-its-simple/

http://drakeshelton.com/2013/12/04/is-divine-simplicity-necessary-for-yahwehs-aseity/

Dude, what you going on about? ads, frankly I hate them. I don't know how people use the internet without an ad blocker.

I'll take a look at your links though.

By the way, what do you know about my constructions? Not everyone here is as uninterested or aggressive toward the unusual. Calm down a little. Stop responding with such hysteria. IOW, don't be so Drake.
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« Reply #134 on: March 25, 2014, 11:47:10 AM »

What more is there to write? Calvinism was officially condemned by the Eastern Orthodox Church as heretical by the Council of Jerusalem Bethlehem in 1672.

By no means am I encouraging you to continue any engagement with Olivianus/Drake, but he's pretty clearly not a Calvinist (anymore) and rejects Christianity altogether.

I am  not a Christian but Calvin's doctrines of grace are based on a patriarchal anthropology which I cannot escape being a bible believer. Your Marxist individualism is the basis for modern communism.
Marx as an individual wasn't raised in Orthodoxy, but in the Calvinist Evangelical church of Prussia.

What Bible is it that you believe in?

Marx held your pelagian anthropology as I have already described in detail.

The different versions of the bible are the same book.
No, the Jews lack the NT
Quote
the Kentucky Calvinists follow the Jews in removing the Anagignoskomena, and the Samaritans lack anything except the Torah.
Tell me what bible you believe and I will show you you don't believe it.
Evading the question:which do you believe in?

As for myself and my household, we follow the Lord:
http://www.apostoliki-diakonia.gr/bible/bible.asp
Quote
So, which Bible is it?

All of them. At least ones that have some serious scholarship to them. Pick one and I'll show you you don't believe it.
All of them don't agree, which means you believe in none of them.

No, all of them are not jointly exhaustive. There is a difference. There is a huge degree of agreement among them, so much so that they teach the same story. Which ever one you pick the issues are the same:

Quote
The Renewed Covenant of Jer.31:31-32 will be replaced by Christianity’s New Testament.  The Nation of Israel will be replaced by the Gentile Church. The Hebrew Gospels and the Hebrew writings of Rav Shaul,[5] will be replaced by Greek manuscripts.  The Unitarianism of the Tanach will be replaced by the pagan Triune Godhead of Christianity, directly contradicted by the Torah,[6] which ultimately worships a monad huperousia pursuant to Plotinus’ Enneads 6 and 9. Following from this the Hebrew names of the creator and the messiah, Yahuwah and Yehoshuwah will be replaced by a Generic title: God, and the name of the Greek deity Iasos later to be translated Jesus. The Torah and all the hundreds of relational, political and economic laws revealed by Yahuwah himself will be replaced by pagan Monasticism, Asceticism, and Feudalism. The Sabbath day, which was sanctified and blessed by Yahuwah in the second chapter of the Bible as an integral part of the created order, will be replaced by the day of the Sun. The annual Sabbaths of the fall and spring feasts will be replaced by the Catholic Church’s liturgical calendar, celebrating the Bohemian pagan Christmas, the pagan celebrations of Astarte and her mystical Easter egg, and the pagan celebration of Halloween. The Protestant Christians, following Rome’s Replacement theology, still replace these feasts with their innovation known as The Lord’s Supper. Protestant Christians also follow the Catholic Catechism’s replacement of circumcision with Baptism.[7]  Following from this, the Creator’s calendar, which measures years by the ripe barley, the abib, and holding to Geocentrism, will be replaced by the Solar calendar of Rome and Jesuit Heliocentrism with the Gregorian Calendar. This religion would go on to justify prayer and worship to idols and statues and trinkets and a legion of other grotesque and abominable insanities explicitly condemned in the Torah. The past 150 years has seen an even bigger failure in Christianity to maintain any kind of religious order in Western Civilization following the Communist revolutions of the 18th and 19th centuries. Without the Hierarchy of the Catholic Church, the baseless, arbitrary theology of Christianity fell like a stack of dry leaves in the face of Marx and Engels’ wicked brilliance. The Torah established a Theocratic Republic[8] which killed anyone who prophesied falsely and promoted worship of another God.[9] This is a direct contradiction to the allegiance modern Christians have to the French Revolution’s doctrines of absolute religious toleration and freedom of speech. The Torah taught that the racial tribe of the Hebrews was more significant than any other people on the earth.[10]  Paul repeats this racial supremacy in his writings,[11] acknowledging the God-given racial privileges of the Jewish people.[12] Modern Christians reject this with their belief that all men are created equal. The Torah, though bestowing equal administrations of justice,[13] affirmed supremacies of privilege and franchise. Yahuwah gave Levites privileges and responsibilities no other class had. However, they were not given franchises other classes enjoyed.[14] The first-born son is given an unearned portion of inheritance.[15] Not only is  slavery condoned in the Bible, a person of Hebrew blood could only be enslaved for six years while a person of foreign blood could be held in hereditary slavery.[16] No mechanistic equality. The Gibeonites, though given administrations of justice,[17] were second class citizens in the Nation of Israel.[18] Women are regarded as the property of either their husband or father,[19] could only inherit property if there was no male heir[20] and are as a gender clearly referred to as ontologically subordinate to men.[21] Women are also to hold no teaching office in the religious assemblies.[22] Modern Christian women especially despise the Bible’s teaching on Head Coverings.[23] Paul teaches in Rom. 13:1-5 that Governments are established by Yahuwah. Modern Christians, in direct defiance of the Bible, following the French thinkers, say that Governments are established by the people. The Bible also condones the right of the state to physically enforce morality on the population.[24]  While some Fascist Christians do believe this, their Fascism is far too liberal to qualify for a true Bible-believing Philosophy. And finally, the Bible explicitly condemns the modern banking system, which Christian Capitalism glories in, with its prohibition against usury.[25] Thus, as we have seen, Christianity has stayed fundamentally consistent, since the 4th century and John Chrysostom’s Eight Homilies Against the Jews, in demonizing and rejecting everything Jewish. Christians, without any doubt, truly hate the Bible.

http://drakeshelton.com/2014/01/27/21-proofs-christians-hate-the-bible/


Quote
you first.

I already did. Your pelagian anthropology states that a hypostasis cannot suffer any degree of compulsion that is necessary for patriarchy. I already had this conversation.
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