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Author Topic: Re: A Few of Drake's Points  (Read 1288 times) Average Rating: 0
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Olivianus
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« Reply #45 on: March 25, 2014, 01:46:48 AM »

An assertion is not an argument.
From the quality of your arguments I am guessing you learned this principle after publishing them?

What have you proved concerning the quality of my arguments? Where is your refutation?
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« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2014, 01:48:16 AM »

What more is there to write? Calvinism was officially condemned by the Eastern Orthodox Church as heretical by the Council of Jerusalem Bethlehem in 1672.

By no means am I encouraging you to continue any engagement with Olivianus/Drake, but he's pretty clearly not a Calvinist (anymore) and rejects Christianity altogether.

I am  not a Christian but Calvin's doctrines of grace are based on a patriarchal anthropology which I cannot escape being a bible believer. Your Marxist individualism is the basis for modern communism.
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« Reply #47 on: March 25, 2014, 01:51:04 AM »

What more is there to write? Calvinism was officially condemned by the Eastern Orthodox Church as heretical by the Council of Jerusalem Bethlehem in 1672.

By no means am I encouraging you to continue any engagement with Olivianus/Drake, but he's pretty clearly not a Calvinist (anymore) and rejects Christianity altogether.

I am  not a Christian but Calvin's doctrines of grace are based on a patriarchal anthropology which I cannot escape being a bible believer. Your Marxist individualism is the basis for modern communism.

Where is the "marxist individualism" in either Nephi's or Fr John's posts you have quoted? If you're attempting to smear either or both of them, it speaks volumes about how shallow and bereft your ideas are.
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« Reply #48 on: March 25, 2014, 01:55:39 AM »

Your religion is a calculated rejection of the bible and the jewish people, messiah being one of those jewish people you Christians despise.

You haven't read much into Second Temple Judaism studies if you're going to make that kind of dialectical assertion. Christianity clearly developed out of that context, with many early Fathers very blatantly making assumptions (using arguments, methods of interpretation, etc.) used by the Rabbis and such. Just read the works of the various scholars on the subject that have come out of, or affiliated with, Marquette University, for example. It's also clear reading James Kugel's (a Jew) works on the Bible, in which he quotes from early Christians alongside Second Temple era Rabbis etc. While not having a complete grasp of the diverse complexities of Second Temple Judaism, Larry Hurtado likewise does a decent job demonstrating the Jewish context for Christianity.

To say Christianity is a "calculated" rejection of Judaism is to either not understand Christianity or to not understand (Second Temple) Judaism, and since you're an ex-Calvinist I'll assume it's primarily the latter.

A similar account was given by an ancient Christian Historian name Epiphanius of Salamis [The Panarion of Epiphanius of Salamis. Nazoraeans, 29. Against Nazoraeans.] where we read that the Natsarim, adherents of Messianic Judaism, were distinguished from Christians in name, were the original believers in the Messiah, distinguished themselves from Talmudists and were suspected of denying the Trinity Doctrine. Jerome also mentions them. [Letter 75, From Jerome to Augustine (A.D. 404), Chapter 4. ] Replacement Theology became so dominate in Christian Theology that Anti-Semitic Creeds such as the Profession of Faith, From the Church of Constantinople required, “As a preliminary to his acceptance as a catechumen, a Jew ‘ must confess and denounce verbally the whole Hebrew people…replying in these words: ‘I renounce all customs, rites, legalisms, unleavened breads and sacrifices of lambs of the Hebrews, and all the other feasts of the Hebrews, sacrifices, prayers, aspersions, purifications, sanctifications and propitiations, and fasts, and new moons, and Sabbaths, and superstitions, and hymns and chants and observances and synagogues, and the food and drink of the Hebrews; in one word, I renounce absolutely everything Jewish”.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/jewish-oaths.asp


I have proved it in great detail here: http://drakeshelton.com/2014/01/27/21-proofs-christians-hate-the-bible/
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« Reply #49 on: March 25, 2014, 02:00:15 AM »


Your religion is a calculated rejection of the bible and the jewish people, messiah being one of those jewish people you Christians despise.  


Orthodox church services, hymns and prayers are stuffed with passages and whole sections from the Bible

Butchered versions from your greek TRANSLATIONS.

Quote
far more than any other Christian tradition. As for the Messiah, who do you say he is, Olivianus?

The messiah. Did you mean to ask another more specific question?



Greek translations? The Septuagint (LXX) is the oldest extant OT, and it is in Greek. The originals of the NT books were also written in Greek.

I was talking about the New Covenant. The original writings of the New Covenant were in hebrew:

http://drakeshelton.com/2013/07/10/was-the-new-testament-originally-written-in-hebrew/

http://drakeshelton.com/2013/08/01/excursus-on-the-semitic-roots-of-the-new-testament/

Quote
As for the Messiah, I asked a straightforward question, which you have refused to answer. Here is is again: Who do you say the Messiah is, Olivianus?

No you didn't you want to play the metaphysics game with the hypostatic union don't you? Let's play. Yehoshuwah clearly stated that only the Father was the one God. John 17:1-4, 1 Cor. 8:6. Your God becoming flesh doctrine is pagan to the core. Yehoshuwah was produced out of the essence of the father. He is a derived being that pre-existed the creation.
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« Reply #50 on: March 25, 2014, 02:02:40 AM »

“Drake makes the point that in the New Testament the titles “presbyter” literally elder, and “eposkopos,” overseerer or Bishop are used interchangeably. That is correct. However, the New Testament was written while the Apostles were still alive. Drake does not consider what happened when they began to die. We know from the example of St. Matthias, and historical documents such as the writings of St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Clement of Rome, and St. Irenaeus of Lyons that when the Apostles realized that Christ was not coming again during their lifetime, that they appointed successors, who were called Bishops to distinguish them from the Presbyters. Thus, although it is only hinted at in the New Testament, we know from the history of the Church that the Apostles left the leadership of the Church in the hands of Bishops who acted as their successors. The Apostles acted as Bishops over the Churches they founded. For example in Acts 14:23, refers to the ordination of priests for the Churches they founded by Sts. Paul and Barnabas; “And when they had appointed elders for them in every church, with prayer and fasting they committed them to the Lord in whom they believed.”  The Greek word translaed “appointed” really means ordained, and “elders” is “presbyters” which is the source of our English word Priests.”

>>>The problem is Deut. 4:1-3, 12:29-32, does not allow innovation like that. The Bible teaches the regulative principle.
An assertion is not an argument.
That's right, which is how your assertion in bold fails as an argument. Unless you are a Samaritan, in which you haven't added the books of Joshua and thereafter in violation of Deuteronomy.  But you then would have other problems.

The regulative principle: Lev 10:1-2 [obj. Exo 30:9 C.R. Lev 16:12 He took coals from an non-commanded source and not from the Altar], Duet 12:29-32 [obj. Temple/Tabernacle sacrificial service ans. Mat 15:7, Jer 7:31], Duet 4:2 [All of life], Jer 7:31, Num 15:39, Mat 15:7, Col 2:20-23 kjv "will worship".  Tabernacle Exo 25:9 ; Temple 1 Chron 28:11-19, 2 Chron 29:25.
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« Reply #51 on: March 25, 2014, 02:06:01 AM »

The preaching of Christ seems to focus more on charity and well doing, well being, socialism, humanity, morality like that is the Church, not some institution. The institutional religion is what condemned and murdered Christ and against whom Christ focussed most of his refutation.

Whether the Jews held it up properly or not, didn't Christ institute that same religion?

Your religion teaches the rejection of that same religion:

"Canon XXIX.

Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord’s Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians.  But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ."

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.viii.vii.iii.xxxiv.html

Your religion is a calculated rejection of the bible and the jewish people, messiah being one of those jewish people you Christians despise. 

What Bible?

Most of them. Pick one. The most used christian bible I am aware of is the nasb. Would you like me to refute your religion with the nasb or another version?
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« Reply #52 on: March 25, 2014, 02:07:07 AM »


Your religion is a calculated rejection of the bible and the jewish people, messiah being one of those jewish people you Christians despise.  


Orthodox church services, hymns and prayers are stuffed with passages and whole sections from the Bible

Butchered versions from your greek TRANSLATIONS.

Quote
far more than any other Christian tradition. As for the Messiah, who do you say he is, Olivianus?

The messiah. Did you mean to ask another more specific question?



Greek translations? The Septuagint (LXX) is the oldest extant OT, and it is in Greek. The originals of the NT books were also written in Greek.

I was talking about the New Covenant. The original writings of the New Covenant were in hebrew:

http://drakeshelton.com/2013/07/10/was-the-new-testament-originally-written-in-hebrew/

http://drakeshelton.com/2013/08/01/excursus-on-the-semitic-roots-of-the-new-testament/

Quote
As for the Messiah, I asked a straightforward question, which you have refused to answer. Here is is again: Who do you say the Messiah is, Olivianus?

No you didn't you want to play the metaphysics game with the hypostatic union don't you? Let's play. Yehoshuwah clearly stated that only the Father was the one God. John 17:1-4, 1 Cor. 8:6. Your God becoming flesh doctrine is pagan to the core. Yehoshuwah was produced out of the essence of the father. He is a derived being that pre-existed the creation.

Quoting yourself as a reference is hardly credible, when what you say flies in the face of almost every Biblical scholar, and by Christian theologians. Has your work been subjected to peer-review? If so, what was the result? If not, why not?

Regarding the hypostatic union, do you deny that Mary gave birth to God Incarnate, as prophesied in the OT, and most clearly in Isaiah 7:14?

You still have not stated who the Messiah is/was. What is his name?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 02:07:35 AM by LBK » Logged
Olivianus
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« Reply #53 on: March 25, 2014, 02:07:43 AM »


Your religion is a calculated rejection of the bible and the jewish people, messiah being one of those jewish people you Christians despise.  


Orthodox church services, hymns and prayers are stuffed with passages and whole sections from the Bible

Butchered versions from your greek TRANSLATIONS.

Which were translated by the Hebrews before the birth of Christ, and predate the Jews' Masoretic text.


I have no absolute commitment to the masoretic text and agree with your church in many points on this issue. However, do you believe the original was in greek or hebrew?
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« Reply #54 on: March 25, 2014, 02:09:22 AM »

What more is there to write? Calvinism was officially condemned by the Eastern Orthodox Church as heretical by the Council of Jerusalem Bethlehem in 1672.

By no means am I encouraging you to continue any engagement with Olivianus/Drake, but he's pretty clearly not a Calvinist (anymore) and rejects Christianity altogether.
Yes, it seems he is a Olivianian, a sect that was begotten by him and in all likelihood will die with him.  Since the Olivianians are not legitimate children of Abraham, Moses or Christ, but the estranged child of Calvin, they need not detain us.

 laugh

The Natsarim sect is the original sect sir.

http://drakeshelton.com/2013/07/07/the-natsarim-the-original-messianic-sect/
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« Reply #55 on: March 25, 2014, 02:10:05 AM »


Your religion is a calculated rejection of the bible and the jewish people, messiah being one of those jewish people you Christians despise.  


Orthodox church services, hymns and prayers are stuffed with passages and whole sections from the Bible

Butchered versions from your greek TRANSLATIONS.

Which were translated by the Hebrews before the birth of Christ, and predate the Jews' Masoretic text.


I have no absolute commitment to the masoretic text and agree with your church in many points on this issue. However, do you believe the original was in greek or hebrew?

The earliest extant Bible we have is the Septuagint.
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« Reply #56 on: March 25, 2014, 02:10:48 AM »

What more is there to write? Calvinism was officially condemned by the Eastern Orthodox Church as heretical by the Council of Jerusalem Bethlehem in 1672.

By no means am I encouraging you to continue any engagement with Olivianus/Drake, but he's pretty clearly not a Calvinist (anymore) and rejects Christianity altogether.
Yes, it seems he is a Olivianian, a sect that was begotten by him and in all likelihood will die with him.  Since the Olivianians are not legitimate children of Abraham, Moses or Christ, but the estranged child of Calvin, they need not detain us.

 laugh

The Natsarim sect is the original sect sir.

http://drakeshelton.com/2013/07/07/the-natsarim-the-original-messianic-sect/

More self-referencing.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #57 on: March 25, 2014, 02:11:10 AM »


Your religion is a calculated rejection of the bible and the jewish people, messiah being one of those jewish people you Christians despise.  


Orthodox church services, hymns and prayers are stuffed with passages and whole sections from the Bible

Butchered versions from your greek TRANSLATIONS.

Quote
far more than any other Christian tradition. As for the Messiah, who do you say he is, Olivianus?

The messiah. Did you mean to ask another more specific question?



The Septuagint wasn't written by Christians, but by Jews. Blame them.

The context was clearly the New Testament.

The original writings of the New Covenant were in hebrew:

http://drakeshelton.com/2013/07/10/was-the-new-testament-originally-written-in-hebrew/

http://drakeshelton.com/2013/08/01/excursus-on-the-semitic-roots-of-the-new-testament/

Just before we go on: are the New Testament and the New Covenant the same in your eyes?

I use the terms New Testament only to conform to your usage. I think the phrase contains some error. Renewed Covenant is the more accurate phrase.
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« Reply #58 on: March 25, 2014, 02:12:24 AM »


Your religion is a calculated rejection of the bible and the jewish people, messiah being one of those jewish people you Christians despise.  


Orthodox church services, hymns and prayers are stuffed with passages and whole sections from the Bible

Butchered versions from your greek TRANSLATIONS.

Quote
far more than any other Christian tradition. As for the Messiah, who do you say he is, Olivianus?

The messiah. Did you mean to ask another more specific question?



The Septuagint wasn't written by Christians, but by Jews. Blame them.

The context was clearly the New Testament.

The original writings of the New Covenant were in hebrew:

http://drakeshelton.com/2013/07/10/was-the-new-testament-originally-written-in-hebrew/

http://drakeshelton.com/2013/08/01/excursus-on-the-semitic-roots-of-the-new-testament/

Just before we go on: are the New Testament and the New Covenant the same in your eyes?

I use the terms New Testament only to conform to your usage. I think the phrase contains some error. Renewed Covenant is the more accurate phrase.

Which only shows your ignorance of Greek.
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« Reply #59 on: March 25, 2014, 02:13:57 AM »

What more is there to write? Calvinism was officially condemned by the Eastern Orthodox Church as heretical by the Council of Jerusalem Bethlehem in 1672.

By no means am I encouraging you to continue any engagement with Olivianus/Drake, but he's pretty clearly not a Calvinist (anymore) and rejects Christianity altogether.

I am  not a Christian but Calvin's doctrines of grace are based on a patriarchal anthropology which I cannot escape being a bible believer. Your Marxist individualism is the basis for modern communism.

Where is the "marxist individualism" in either Nephi's or Fr John's posts you have quoted? If you're attempting to smear either or both of them, it speaks volumes about how shallow and bereft your ideas are.

You guys are pelagians in your anthropology. You think it is against free will that any human suffer under compulsions either outward or inward. You think for a person's identity to be determined in any measure by someone else to be against free will. That is why you are against patriarchy. Patriarchy requires compulsion.  
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« Reply #60 on: March 25, 2014, 02:16:05 AM »

What more is there to write? Calvinism was officially condemned by the Eastern Orthodox Church as heretical by the Council of Jerusalem Bethlehem in 1672.

By no means am I encouraging you to continue any engagement with Olivianus/Drake, but he's pretty clearly not a Calvinist (anymore) and rejects Christianity altogether.

I am  not a Christian but Calvin's doctrines of grace are based on a patriarchal anthropology which I cannot escape being a bible believer. Your Marxist individualism is the basis for modern communism.

Where is the "marxist individualism" in either Nephi's or Fr John's posts you have quoted? If you're attempting to smear either or both of them, it speaks volumes about how shallow and bereft your ideas are.

You guys are pelagians in your anthropology. You think it is against free will that any human suffer under compulsions either outward or inward. You think for a person's identity to be determined in any measure by someone else to be against free will. That is why you are against patriarchy. Patriarchy requires compulsion.  

What does pelagianism (which Orthodoxy isn't, BTW, pelagianism is a declared heresy) have to do with Marxism?  Huh Huh Huh
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« Reply #61 on: March 25, 2014, 02:16:59 AM »


Your religion is a calculated rejection of the bible and the jewish people, messiah being one of those jewish people you Christians despise.  


Orthodox church services, hymns and prayers are stuffed with passages and whole sections from the Bible

Butchered versions from your greek TRANSLATIONS.

Quote
far more than any other Christian tradition. As for the Messiah, who do you say he is, Olivianus?

The messiah. Did you mean to ask another more specific question?



Greek translations? The Septuagint (LXX) is the oldest extant OT, and it is in Greek. The originals of the NT books were also written in Greek.

I was talking about the New Covenant. The original writings of the New Covenant were in hebrew:

http://drakeshelton.com/2013/07/10/was-the-new-testament-originally-written-in-hebrew/

http://drakeshelton.com/2013/08/01/excursus-on-the-semitic-roots-of-the-new-testament/

Quote
As for the Messiah, I asked a straightforward question, which you have refused to answer. Here is is again: Who do you say the Messiah is, Olivianus?

No you didn't you want to play the metaphysics game with the hypostatic union don't you? Let's play. Yehoshuwah clearly stated that only the Father was the one God. John 17:1-4, 1 Cor. 8:6. Your God becoming flesh doctrine is pagan to the core. Yehoshuwah was produced out of the essence of the father. He is a derived being that pre-existed the creation.

Quoting yourself as a reference is hardly credible, when what you say flies in the face of almost every Biblical scholar, and by Christian theologians. Has your work been subjected to peer-review? If so, what was the result? If not, why not?

Regarding the hypostatic union, do you deny that Mary gave birth to God Incarnate, as prophesied in the OT, and most clearly in Isaiah 7:14?

You still have not stated who the Messiah is/was. What is his name?

Quoting your theologians is not in need of peer review. Here is the game you guys love to play: If I quoted sections from your theologians here I would be reprimanded for spamming. But if I give a specific link where I have cited and organized their quotes for easy access I am not qualified to do so. What a sad bunch you guys are.
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« Reply #62 on: March 25, 2014, 02:18:21 AM »


Your religion is a calculated rejection of the bible and the jewish people, messiah being one of those jewish people you Christians despise.  


Orthodox church services, hymns and prayers are stuffed with passages and whole sections from the Bible

Butchered versions from your greek TRANSLATIONS.

Which were translated by the Hebrews before the birth of Christ, and predate the Jews' Masoretic text.


I have no absolute commitment to the masoretic text and agree with your church in many points on this issue. However, do you believe the original was in greek or hebrew?

The earliest extant Bible we have is the Septuagint.

LOL! I knew you weren't going to answer the question. So predictable.
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« Reply #63 on: March 25, 2014, 02:19:03 AM »

What more is there to write? Calvinism was officially condemned by the Eastern Orthodox Church as heretical by the Council of Jerusalem Bethlehem in 1672.

By no means am I encouraging you to continue any engagement with Olivianus/Drake, but he's pretty clearly not a Calvinist (anymore) and rejects Christianity altogether.
Yes, it seems he is a Olivianian, a sect that was begotten by him and in all likelihood will die with him.  Since the Olivianians are not legitimate children of Abraham, Moses or Christ, but the estranged child of Calvin, they need not detain us.

 laugh

The Natsarim sect is the original sect sir.

http://drakeshelton.com/2013/07/07/the-natsarim-the-original-messianic-sect/

More self-referencing.  Roll Eyes

That is a violation of the 9th commandment. That article is simply a quotation from Epiphanius.
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« Reply #64 on: March 25, 2014, 02:20:05 AM »


Your religion is a calculated rejection of the bible and the jewish people, messiah being one of those jewish people you Christians despise.  


Orthodox church services, hymns and prayers are stuffed with passages and whole sections from the Bible

Butchered versions from your greek TRANSLATIONS.

Which were translated by the Hebrews before the birth of Christ, and predate the Jews' Masoretic text.


I have no absolute commitment to the masoretic text and agree with your church in many points on this issue. However, do you believe the original was in greek or hebrew?

The earliest extant Bible we have is the Septuagint.

LOL! I knew you weren't going to answer the question. So predictable.

You've yet to answer my questions on the identity of the Messiah, on the Incarnation, etc. How 'bout it?
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« Reply #65 on: March 25, 2014, 02:20:47 AM »

What more is there to write? Calvinism was officially condemned by the Eastern Orthodox Church as heretical by the Council of Jerusalem Bethlehem in 1672.

By no means am I encouraging you to continue any engagement with Olivianus/Drake, but he's pretty clearly not a Calvinist (anymore) and rejects Christianity altogether.
Yes, it seems he is a Olivianian, a sect that was begotten by him and in all likelihood will die with him.  Since the Olivianians are not legitimate children of Abraham, Moses or Christ, but the estranged child of Calvin, they need not detain us.

 laugh

The Natsarim sect is the original sect sir.

http://drakeshelton.com/2013/07/07/the-natsarim-the-original-messianic-sect/

More self-referencing.  Roll Eyes

That is a violation of the 9th commandment. That article is simply a quotation from Epiphanius.

Oooh, I'm so afraid!!  Tongue Roll Eyes
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« Reply #66 on: March 25, 2014, 02:24:19 AM »

As for the Panarion you quote, the Nazarenes deny the Holy Trinity. This is quite enough to show them as heretics, which is exactly what St Epiphanius was doing.
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« Reply #67 on: March 25, 2014, 02:40:39 AM »


Your religion is a calculated rejection of the bible and the jewish people, messiah being one of those jewish people you Christians despise.  


Orthodox church services, hymns and prayers are stuffed with passages and whole sections from the Bible

Butchered versions from your greek TRANSLATIONS.

Quote
far more than any other Christian tradition. As for the Messiah, who do you say he is, Olivianus?

The messiah. Did you mean to ask another more specific question?



The Septuagint wasn't written by Christians, but by Jews. Blame them.

The context was clearly the New Testament.

The original writings of the New Covenant were in hebrew:

http://drakeshelton.com/2013/07/10/was-the-new-testament-originally-written-in-hebrew/

http://drakeshelton.com/2013/08/01/excursus-on-the-semitic-roots-of-the-new-testament/

Just before we go on: are the New Testament and the New Covenant the same in your eyes?

I use the terms New Testament only to conform to your usage. I think the phrase contains some error. Renewed Covenant is the more accurate phrase.

Which only shows your ignorance of Greek.

 laugh Jer. 31:31 was originally written in Hebrew not greek. What game are you playing at sir?
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« Reply #68 on: March 25, 2014, 02:46:15 AM »

What more is there to write? Calvinism was officially condemned by the Eastern Orthodox Church as heretical by the Council of Jerusalem Bethlehem in 1672.

By no means am I encouraging you to continue any engagement with Olivianus/Drake, but he's pretty clearly not a Calvinist (anymore) and rejects Christianity altogether.

I am  not a Christian but Calvin's doctrines of grace are based on a patriarchal anthropology which I cannot escape being a bible believer. Your Marxist individualism is the basis for modern communism.

Where is the "marxist individualism" in either Nephi's or Fr John's posts you have quoted? If you're attempting to smear either or both of them, it speaks volumes about how shallow and bereft your ideas are.

You guys are pelagians in your anthropology. You think it is against free will that any human suffer under compulsions either outward or inward. You think for a person's identity to be determined in any measure by someone else to be against free will. That is why you are against patriarchy. Patriarchy requires compulsion.  

What does pelagianism (which Orthodoxy isn't, BTW, pelagianism is a declared heresy) have to do with Marxism?  Huh Huh Huh

No natural compulsions. The person is free to act any way they will. Women can be equal to men. Women need not be confined to traditional roles based on nature because nature means nothing when it comes to action. Blacks are equal to whites and nature plays no part in their activity. Sure blacks can be accepted into Harvard on affirmative action and make straight A's because nature has not dictated how smart the black man is. Sure, he'll pass with flying colors because he has evoked the gnomie to do so. At least that is the philosophy; though we all know it isn't true, we say it is to make us all feel better.
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« Reply #69 on: March 25, 2014, 02:48:11 AM »

As for the Panarion you quote, the Nazarenes deny the Holy Trinity. This is quite enough to show them as heretics, which is exactly what St Epiphanius was doing.

I reject the Trinity and coming from you people I take it as a compliment that you think I'm a heretic.
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« Reply #70 on: March 25, 2014, 02:57:43 AM »


Your religion is a calculated rejection of the bible and the jewish people, messiah being one of those jewish people you Christians despise.  


Orthodox church services, hymns and prayers are stuffed with passages and whole sections from the Bible

Butchered versions from your greek TRANSLATIONS.

Quote
far more than any other Christian tradition. As for the Messiah, who do you say he is, Olivianus?

The messiah. Did you mean to ask another more specific question?



The Septuagint wasn't written by Christians, but by Jews. Blame them.

The context was clearly the New Testament.

The original writings of the New Covenant were in hebrew:

http://drakeshelton.com/2013/07/10/was-the-new-testament-originally-written-in-hebrew/

http://drakeshelton.com/2013/08/01/excursus-on-the-semitic-roots-of-the-new-testament/

Just before we go on: are the New Testament and the New Covenant the same in your eyes?

I use the terms New Testament only to conform to your usage. I think the phrase contains some error. Renewed Covenant is the more accurate phrase.

Which only shows your ignorance of Greek.

 laugh Jer. 31:31 was originally written in Hebrew not greek. What game are you playing at sir?

This game: Here is the Greek Septuagint text of this verse:

31 ἰδοὺ ἡμέραι ἔρχονται, φησὶ Κύριος, καὶ διαθήσομαι τῷ οἴκῳ ᾿Ισραὴλ καὶ τῷ οἴκῳ ᾿Ιούδα διαθήκην καινήν,

The term Καινή Διαθήκη  is the Greek name of the collection of books known as the New Testament. To this day, the word διαθήκη means testament, in the same way that last will and testament is used in English to refer to the legal document by that name.
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« Reply #71 on: March 25, 2014, 02:59:46 AM »

As for the Panarion you quote, the Nazarenes deny the Holy Trinity. This is quite enough to show them as heretics, which is exactly what St Epiphanius was doing.

I reject the Trinity and coming from you people I take it as a compliment that you think I'm a heretic.

Then what are you doing on a forum dedicated to the discussion of Christianity, and Orthodox Christianity at that? You won't convince anyone here of your heresies and crackpot ideas.
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« Reply #72 on: March 25, 2014, 03:11:40 AM »


Your religion is a calculated rejection of the bible and the jewish people, messiah being one of those jewish people you Christians despise.  


Orthodox church services, hymns and prayers are stuffed with passages and whole sections from the Bible

Butchered versions from your greek TRANSLATIONS.

Which were translated by the Hebrews before the birth of Christ, and predate the Jews' Masoretic text.


I have no absolute commitment to the masoretic text and agree with your church in many points on this issue. However, do you believe the original was in greek or hebrew?

The earliest extant Bible we have is the Septuagint.

LOL! I knew you weren't going to answer the question. So predictable.

You've yet to answer my questions on the identity of the Messiah, on the Incarnation, etc. How 'bout it?


Still waiting, Olivianus.
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« Reply #73 on: March 25, 2014, 03:16:01 AM »


Your religion is a calculated rejection of the bible and the jewish people, messiah being one of those jewish people you Christians despise.  


Orthodox church services, hymns and prayers are stuffed with passages and whole sections from the Bible

Butchered versions from your greek TRANSLATIONS.

Quote
far more than any other Christian tradition. As for the Messiah, who do you say he is, Olivianus?

The messiah. Did you mean to ask another more specific question?



The Septuagint wasn't written by Christians, but by Jews. Blame them.

The context was clearly the New Testament.

The original writings of the New Covenant were in hebrew:

http://drakeshelton.com/2013/07/10/was-the-new-testament-originally-written-in-hebrew/

http://drakeshelton.com/2013/08/01/excursus-on-the-semitic-roots-of-the-new-testament/

Just before we go on: are the New Testament and the New Covenant the same in your eyes?

I use the terms New Testament only to conform to your usage. I think the phrase contains some error. Renewed Covenant is the more accurate phrase.

Which only shows your ignorance of Greek.

 laugh Jer. 31:31 was originally written in Hebrew not greek. What game are you playing at sir?

This game: Here is the Greek Septuagint text of this verse:

31 ἰδοὺ ἡμέραι ἔρχονται, φησὶ Κύριος, καὶ διαθήσομαι τῷ οἴκῳ ᾿Ισραὴλ καὶ τῷ οἴκῳ ᾿Ιούδα διαθήκην καινήν,

The term Καινή Διαθήκη  is the Greek name of the collection of books known as the New Testament. To this day, the word διαθήκη means testament, in the same way that last will and testament is used in English to refer to the legal document by that name.

John 13:34- Is love here a new or a renewed command?

2 Cor 5:17, Gal. 6:15 So upon conversion a Christian gets a new body and a new mind, or is the same body and mind renewed?

2 Pet 3:13 So are we waiting for the earth to be destroyed and another made or are we waiting for a renewal of the same earth?

And then Heb. 6:6 the word clearly means renew not absolutely new.
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« Reply #74 on: March 25, 2014, 03:16:54 AM »


Your religion is a calculated rejection of the bible and the jewish people, messiah being one of those jewish people you Christians despise.  


Orthodox church services, hymns and prayers are stuffed with passages and whole sections from the Bible

Butchered versions from your greek TRANSLATIONS.

Which were translated by the Hebrews before the birth of Christ, and predate the Jews' Masoretic text.


I have no absolute commitment to the masoretic text and agree with your church in many points on this issue. However, do you believe the original was in greek or hebrew?

The earliest extant Bible we have is the Septuagint.

LOL! I knew you weren't going to answer the question. So predictable.

You've yet to answer my questions on the identity of the Messiah, on the Incarnation, etc. How 'bout it?


Still waiting, Olivianus.

Still waiting for what? To read post 95?
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« Reply #75 on: March 25, 2014, 03:18:33 AM »

As for the Panarion you quote, the Nazarenes deny the Holy Trinity. This is quite enough to show them as heretics, which is exactly what St Epiphanius was doing.

I reject the Trinity and coming from you people I take it as a compliment that you think I'm a heretic.

Then what are you doing on a forum dedicated to the discussion of Christianity, and Orthodox Christianity at that? You won't convince anyone here of your heresies and crackpot ideas.

I was being attacked on this forum and I kept getting referrals from this page because I have written the most extensive refutation of Eastern Orthodoxy ever penned and so since my work was being discussed I found it immediately relevant to show up.
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« Reply #76 on: March 25, 2014, 03:20:53 AM »


Your religion is a calculated rejection of the bible and the jewish people, messiah being one of those jewish people you Christians despise.  


Orthodox church services, hymns and prayers are stuffed with passages and whole sections from the Bible

Butchered versions from your greek TRANSLATIONS.

Which were translated by the Hebrews before the birth of Christ, and predate the Jews' Masoretic text.


I have no absolute commitment to the masoretic text and agree with your church in many points on this issue. However, do you believe the original was in greek or hebrew?

The earliest extant Bible we have is the Septuagint.

LOL! I knew you weren't going to answer the question. So predictable.

You've yet to answer my questions on the identity of the Messiah, on the Incarnation, etc. How 'bout it?


Still waiting, Olivianus.

Still waiting for what? To read post 95?

Are you so lazy to do so? #98 is also relevant.
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« Reply #77 on: March 25, 2014, 03:24:17 AM »

As for the Panarion you quote, the Nazarenes deny the Holy Trinity. This is quite enough to show them as heretics, which is exactly what St Epiphanius was doing.

I reject the Trinity and coming from you people I take it as a compliment that you think I'm a heretic.

Then what are you doing on a forum dedicated to the discussion of Christianity, and Orthodox Christianity at that? You won't convince anyone here of your heresies and crackpot ideas.

I was being attacked on this forum and I kept getting referrals from this page because I have written the most extensive refutation of Eastern Orthodoxy ever penned and so since my work was being discussed I found it immediately relevant to show up.

And, as diligent and faithful Christians, we are defending our faith against distortions and heresies promoted by folks like you. Your "refutations" show how weak your positions are. The kindest thing to say about them is that they might be based on honest ignorance of what Orthodoxy is about.
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« Reply #78 on: March 25, 2014, 03:25:14 AM »

As for the Panarion you quote, the Nazarenes deny the Holy Trinity. This is quite enough to show them as heretics, which is exactly what St Epiphanius was doing.

I maintain that I know more about this doctrine than any human being you have ever heard of. I will debate the best you got on it. Bring it on.

http://drakeshelton.com/drakes-triadology-stuff/
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« Reply #79 on: March 25, 2014, 03:26:09 AM »

As for the Panarion you quote, the Nazarenes deny the Holy Trinity. This is quite enough to show them as heretics, which is exactly what St Epiphanius was doing.

I reject the Trinity and coming from you people I take it as a compliment that you think I'm a heretic.

Then what are you doing on a forum dedicated to the discussion of Christianity, and Orthodox Christianity at that? You won't convince anyone here of your heresies and crackpot ideas.

I was being attacked on this forum and I kept getting referrals from this page because I have written the most extensive refutation of Eastern Orthodoxy ever penned and so since my work was being discussed I found it immediately relevant to show up.

And, as diligent and faithful Christians, we are defending our faith against distortions and heresies promoted by folks like you. Your "refutations" show how weak your positions are. The kindest thing to say about them is that they might be based on honest ignorance of what Orthodoxy is about.

Captain assertion. Can I get some arguments please?
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« Reply #80 on: March 25, 2014, 03:29:39 AM »

As for the Panarion you quote, the Nazarenes deny the Holy Trinity. This is quite enough to show them as heretics, which is exactly what St Epiphanius was doing.

I maintain that I know more about this doctrine than any human being you have ever heard of. I will debate the best you got on it. Bring it on.

http://drakeshelton.com/drakes-triadology-stuff/

God Himself revealed His Trinitarian self at various times in Biblical history - at the Oak of Mamre, at Christ's baptism in the Jordan, at the Transfiguration on Mt Tabor, and at Pentecost, with the descent of the Holy Spirit on the disciples. Yup, we, whom you shamefully and with cowardice accuse of despising the Bible, believe these things, and celebrate them in our church services.
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« Reply #81 on: March 25, 2014, 03:30:52 AM »

As for the Panarion you quote, the Nazarenes deny the Holy Trinity. This is quite enough to show them as heretics, which is exactly what St Epiphanius was doing.

I reject the Trinity and coming from you people I take it as a compliment that you think I'm a heretic.

Then what are you doing on a forum dedicated to the discussion of Christianity, and Orthodox Christianity at that? You won't convince anyone here of your heresies and crackpot ideas.

I was being attacked on this forum and I kept getting referrals from this page because I have written the most extensive refutation of Eastern Orthodoxy ever penned and so since my work was being discussed I found it immediately relevant to show up.

And, as diligent and faithful Christians, we are defending our faith against distortions and heresies promoted by folks like you. Your "refutations" show how weak your positions are. The kindest thing to say about them is that they might be based on honest ignorance of what Orthodoxy is about.

Captain assertion. Can I get some arguments please?

Go back and read this thread from the start.
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« Reply #82 on: March 25, 2014, 03:38:35 AM »

As for the Panarion you quote, the Nazarenes deny the Holy Trinity. This is quite enough to show them as heretics, which is exactly what St Epiphanius was doing.

I maintain that I know more about this doctrine than any human being you have ever heard of. I will debate the best you got on it. Bring it on.

http://drakeshelton.com/drakes-triadology-stuff/

God Himself revealed His Trinitarian self at various times in Biblical history - at the Oak of Mamre, at Christ's baptism in the Jordan, at the Transfiguration on Mt Tabor, and at Pentecost, with the descent of the Holy Spirit on the disciples. Yup, we, whom you shamefully and with cowardice accuse of despising the Bible, believe these things, and celebrate them in our church services.

Trinitarian self? In order for it to be trinitarian it would have to be a group not a self. You see I speak English, and the English language says that quantities more than one are plural.

The Oak of Mamre event would require you to say that God is three beings not one, contra Deut. 6:4.

Christ's baptism example is totally ad hoc as are the other examples.
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« Reply #83 on: March 25, 2014, 03:51:22 AM »

Well, this is interesting.  Sort of.  My favorite was the offer to refute our religion with the bible.  That's always good.
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« Reply #84 on: March 25, 2014, 04:13:51 AM »

Quote
Christ's baptism example is totally ad hoc as are the other examples.

On what basis are they ad hoc, and why would their being ad hoc be significant?

BTW, still waiting for your answers on the identity of the Messiah and on the Incarnation.
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« Reply #85 on: March 25, 2014, 07:15:25 AM »

I learned a long time ago not to waste my time arguing with someone who has already made up their mind on an issue. It is obvious that you are not interested in serious honest dialogue. The tone of your reply is offensive. When you call a major Saint of the Church a "scum bag" you show that you are incapable to constructive and serious discourse. Actually, your response shows the truth of my argument, Calvinism produces spiritual pride.
I get paid to minister to my flock, not to waste my time arguing with a fanatic who is only here on this site to insult us.

Fr. John W. Morris

Perhaps is just "spiritual" repugnance.

All of this fruitless Churchism makes people sick.

Just saying..  Roll Eyes

You should "minister" to the "lost sheep" . If you minister only to the "saved" what reward will you have? When a man is in the pit then is when you should reach your hand to lift him up, not when he is sitting on the ground.
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« Reply #86 on: March 25, 2014, 07:19:01 AM »

The preaching of Christ seems to focus more on charity and well doing, well being, socialism, humanity, morality like that is the Church, not some institution. The institutional religion is what condemned and murdered Christ and against whom Christ focussed most of his refutation.

Whether the Jews held it up properly or not, didn't Christ institute that same religion?

Then why aren't Christians, Jews?

The Jews of yesterday are Christians. The Jews of today are not.

Christianity has some concepts that are totally foreign and antijewish.

That is an honest Christian there.

Based on Rashi's 11th century teachings; and not on the Apostle's 1st century teachings.

You don't believe the apostle's 1st century teachings:

Rom. 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Rom. 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

Rom. 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

1 John 3:4 Sin is a transgression of the law


I can give you a lot of NT quote showing that the Law has changed.

I think the Apostles were confused.

Judaism is an offshoot of paganism. Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism...
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« Reply #87 on: March 25, 2014, 07:52:08 AM »

I learned a long time ago not to waste my time arguing with someone who has already made up their mind on an issue. It is obvious that you are not interested in serious honest dialogue. The tone of your reply is offensive. When you call a major Saint of the Church a "scum bag" you show that you are incapable to constructive and serious discourse. Actually, your response shows the truth of my argument, Calvinism produces spiritual pride.
I get paid to minister to my flock, not to waste my time arguing with a fanatic who is only here on this site to insult us.

Online debates rarely lead to one participant changing the mind of the other. Rather, they can prove beneficial and educational to all who are observing attentively.

I would thus ask that you not disengage, for our sakes if nothing else--or that someone else pick up where you left off.

What more is there to write? Calvinism was officially condemned by the Eastern Orthodox Church as heretical by the Council of Jerusalem Bethlehem in 1672. Just a few Bible verses are enough to demolish Calvinism;  I Timothy 2:4 that states that God, "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." I John 2:2, "he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." Romans 5:18, "Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men." As Eastern Orthodox we are guided by the Holy Fathers, all of which affirmed the doctrine of free will. The only exception is Augustine, who himself also affirmed free will in some of his writings. For that reason, we cannot take seriously the arguments of someone who calls St. John Chrysostom, one of the greatest of the Fathers and experts on the meaning of the Bible in the history of Christianity a "scum bag."
The problem with this kind of argument is that we each play by different rules. We follow Holy Tradition which includes not only the Bible, but also the Fathers and the Ecumenical Councils, others follow the teachings of one man like John Calvin or their own personal interpretations of the Holy Scriptures.

Fr. John W. Morris

Fr. John W. Morris

 

 

 

Is the Jerusalem Synod ecumenical? Why are many Orthodox so reserved concerning this council because it speaks of transubstantion and etc?
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« Reply #88 on: March 25, 2014, 08:05:54 AM »

As for the Panarion you quote, the Nazarenes deny the Holy Trinity. This is quite enough to show them as heretics, which is exactly what St Epiphanius was doing.

I reject the Trinity and coming from you people I take it as a compliment that you think I'm a heretic.

Then what are you doing on a forum dedicated to the discussion of Christianity, and Orthodox Christianity at that? You won't convince anyone here of your heresies and crackpot ideas.

I was being attacked on this forum and I kept getting referrals from this page because I have written the most extensive refutation of Eastern Orthodoxy ever penned and so since my work was being discussed I found it immediately relevant to show up.

A pre-schooler knows more about Orthodoxy than you do.

In one point (Point 46) you say that God is seen as "Divine Darkness" according to Lossky, then you quote the Bible to say "God is Light".

The problem is that you conflate what Psuedo Dionysios the Aeropagite says (not Lossky), and what the Bible says; as if they contradict, when there is no contradiction between the two. In fact, Orthodox affirm God is Light, the entire argument of St. Gregory Palamas against Balaam is evidence of that.

Those who deny that God is light, and that God's light and energy did not shine and emanate from Christ on Mt. Tabor are anathema in the Orthodox Church.

On another point you stated that Icons are Nestorian. (Point 43) Which is... somewhat true. Nestorians do use Icons. However, you take this to mean that somehow, Christ's Divinity is not represented in the Icon and only his humanity is. To which I reply, have you EVER looked at an icon? (if you still cannot see Divinity represented here, just look at the Halo with the Greek o on "I AM" on it.)







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« Reply #89 on: March 25, 2014, 08:11:04 AM »

I learned a long time ago not to waste my time arguing with someone who has already made up their mind on an issue. It is obvious that you are not interested in serious honest dialogue. The tone of your reply is offensive. When you call a major Saint of the Church a "scum bag" you show that you are incapable to constructive and serious discourse. Actually, your response shows the truth of my argument, Calvinism produces spiritual pride.
I get paid to minister to my flock, not to waste my time arguing with a fanatic who is only here on this site to insult us.

Online debates rarely lead to one participant changing the mind of the other. Rather, they can prove beneficial and educational to all who are observing attentively.

I would thus ask that you not disengage, for our sakes if nothing else--or that someone else pick up where you left off.

What more is there to write? Calvinism was officially condemned by the Eastern Orthodox Church as heretical by the Council of Jerusalem Bethlehem in 1672. Just a few Bible verses are enough to demolish Calvinism;  I Timothy 2:4 that states that God, "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." I John 2:2, "he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." Romans 5:18, "Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men." As Eastern Orthodox we are guided by the Holy Fathers, all of which affirmed the doctrine of free will. The only exception is Augustine, who himself also affirmed free will in some of his writings. For that reason, we cannot take seriously the arguments of someone who calls St. John Chrysostom, one of the greatest of the Fathers and experts on the meaning of the Bible in the history of Christianity a "scum bag."
The problem with this kind of argument is that we each play by different rules. We follow Holy Tradition which includes not only the Bible, but also the Fathers and the Ecumenical Councils, others follow the teachings of one man like John Calvin or their own personal interpretations of the Holy Scriptures.

Fr. John W. Morris

Fr. John W. Morris

 

 

 

Is the Jerusalem Synod ecumenical? Why are many Orthodox so reserved concerning this council because it speaks of transubstantion and etc?
It is Pan Orthodox, and not Ecumenical, as it deals with external threats to the Church: Calvin did not arise among us.
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