OrthodoxChristianity.net
December 21, 2014, 10:41:56 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Re: A Few of Drake's Points  (Read 1475 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Olivianus
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Judaizer
Jurisdiction: Kentucky
Posts: 50



WWW
« Reply #135 on: March 25, 2014, 11:50:54 AM »

You are conflating nominal with cardinal numerics. John 5:43 Yehoshuwah says he comes in the name of his Father. He did not say he was the same numeric thing as his Father.

The Trinity is heresy. Yehoshuwah was subordinate to the Father, ontologically, not just functionally,

John 14: 28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

John 5: 19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever [e]the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

1 Cor. 11:3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

John 8: 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’;

John 20: 17 Jesus *said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’”
So you are asserting that John (and by extension, the rest of the NT as in the King James Bible, etc.) record what Jesus actually said?  Did they so record infallibly by inspiration?

Actually? Continuum fallacy. There is enough in the christian bibles to get to the truth.

"Did they so record infallibly by inspiration?"

>>>Yes, in a semitic language and their writings were suppressed to avoid the obvious implication: Hebrew Racial Supremacy. 
Logged
xOrthodox4Christx
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Protestant (Inquirer)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Christianity
Posts: 3,636



« Reply #136 on: March 25, 2014, 11:53:53 AM »

As for the Panarion you quote, the Nazarenes deny the Holy Trinity. This is quite enough to show them as heretics, which is exactly what St Epiphanius was doing.

I reject the Trinity and coming from you people I take it as a compliment that you think I'm a heretic.

Then what are you doing on a forum dedicated to the discussion of Christianity, and Orthodox Christianity at that? You won't convince anyone here of your heresies and crackpot ideas.

I was being attacked on this forum and I kept getting referrals from this page because I have written the most extensive refutation of Eastern Orthodoxy ever penned and so since my work was being discussed I found it immediately relevant to show up.

A pre-schooler knows more about Orthodoxy than you do.

In one point (Point 46) you say that God is seen as "Divine Darkness" according to Lossky, then you quote the Bible to say "God is Light".

The problem is that you conflate what Psuedo Dionysios the Aeropagite says (not Lossky), and what the Bible says; as if they contradict, when there is no contradiction between the two. In fact, Orthodox affirm God is Light, the entire argument of St. Gregory Palamas against Balaam is evidence of that.

Those who deny that God is light, and that God's light and energy did not shine and emanate from Christ on Mt. Tabor are anathema in the Orthodox Church.

On another point you stated that Icons are Nestorian. (Point 43) Which is... somewhat true. Nestorians do use Icons. However, you take this to mean that somehow, Christ's Divinity is not represented in the Icon and only his humanity is. To which I reply, have you EVER looked at an icon? (if you still cannot see Divinity represented here, just look at the Halo with the Greek o on "I AM" on it.)









Your essence and energies doctrine is self contradictory. The doctrine of the uncreated energies means that God is ontologically economical. The fact that the energies could have been different is irrelevant. Either way is an eternal economy.

You don't believe that God is light. You think God imported an economical action.

"On another point you stated that Icons are Nestorian. (Point 43) Which is... somewhat true. Nestorians do use Icons. However, you take this to mean that somehow, Christ's Divinity is not represented in the Icon and only his humanity is. To which I reply, have you EVER looked at an icon? (if you still cannot see Divinity represented here, just look at the Halo with the Greek o on "I AM" on it.)"

>>>You totally avoided my argument. Anyway, after I abandoned the trinity I abandoned my view of images of Messiah. I don't have a problem with images of messiah now. He is not the one God. Make as many images of him as you like.

Quote
>>>You totally avoided my argument.

Few things. First, you don't have an argument. Second, you avoided my response to your 'argument'.
Logged

"Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth.... While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element, I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free." (Eugene Debs)
Olivianus
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Judaizer
Jurisdiction: Kentucky
Posts: 50



WWW
« Reply #137 on: March 25, 2014, 11:56:47 AM »

As for the Panarion you quote, the Nazarenes deny the Holy Trinity. This is quite enough to show them as heretics, which is exactly what St Epiphanius was doing.

I reject the Trinity and coming from you people I take it as a compliment that you think I'm a heretic.

Then what are you doing on a forum dedicated to the discussion of Christianity, and Orthodox Christianity at that? You won't convince anyone here of your heresies and crackpot ideas.

I was being attacked on this forum and I kept getting referrals from this page because I have written the most extensive refutation of Eastern Orthodoxy ever penned and so since my work was being discussed I found it immediately relevant to show up.

A pre-schooler knows more about Orthodoxy than you do.

In one point (Point 46) you say that God is seen as "Divine Darkness" according to Lossky, then you quote the Bible to say "God is Light".

The problem is that you conflate what Psuedo Dionysios the Aeropagite says (not Lossky), and what the Bible says; as if they contradict, when there is no contradiction between the two. In fact, Orthodox affirm God is Light, the entire argument of St. Gregory Palamas against Balaam is evidence of that.

Those who deny that God is light, and that God's light and energy did not shine and emanate from Christ on Mt. Tabor are anathema in the Orthodox Church.

On another point you stated that Icons are Nestorian. (Point 43) Which is... somewhat true. Nestorians do use Icons. However, you take this to mean that somehow, Christ's Divinity is not represented in the Icon and only his humanity is. To which I reply, have you EVER looked at an icon? (if you still cannot see Divinity represented here, just look at the Halo with the Greek o on "I AM" on it.)









Your essence and energies doctrine is self contradictory. The doctrine of the uncreated energies means that God is ontologically economical. The fact that the energies could have been different is irrelevant. Either way is an eternal economy.

You don't believe that God is light. You think God imported an economical action.

"On another point you stated that Icons are Nestorian. (Point 43) Which is... somewhat true. Nestorians do use Icons. However, you take this to mean that somehow, Christ's Divinity is not represented in the Icon and only his humanity is. To which I reply, have you EVER looked at an icon? (if you still cannot see Divinity represented here, just look at the Halo with the Greek o on "I AM" on it.)"

>>>You totally avoided my argument. Anyway, after I abandoned the trinity I abandoned my view of images of Messiah. I don't have a problem with images of messiah now. He is not the one God. Make as many images of him as you like.

Quote
>>>You totally avoided my argument.

Few things. First, you don't have an argument. Second, you avoided my response to your 'argument'.

Which part?
Logged
DeniseDenise
Moderated
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,697


Pre-heating the Oven!


« Reply #138 on: March 25, 2014, 11:58:29 AM »

Whatever you all do....could you stop requoteing everything with the darn pictures.......those of us watching the tennis match are tired of scrolling.   laugh
Logged
xOrthodox4Christx
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Protestant (Inquirer)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Christianity
Posts: 3,636



« Reply #139 on: March 25, 2014, 11:58:42 AM »

Quote
Which part?
Quote
In one point (Point 46) you say that God is seen as "Divine Darkness" according to Lossky, then you quote the Bible to say "God is Light".

The problem is that you conflate what Psuedo Dionysios the Aeropagite says (not Lossky), and what the Bible says; as if they contradict, when there is no contradiction between the two. In fact, Orthodox affirm God is Light, the entire argument of St. Gregory Palamas against Balaam is evidence of that.

Those who deny that God is light, and that God's light and energy did not shine and emanate from Christ on Mt. Tabor are anathema in the Orthodox Church.

On another point you stated that Icons are Nestorian. (Point 43) Which is... somewhat true. Nestorians do use Icons. However, you take this to mean that somehow, Christ's Divinity is not represented in the Icon and only his humanity is. To which I reply, have you EVER looked at an icon? (if you still cannot see Divinity represented here, just look at the Halo with the Greek o on "I AM" on it.)







Logged

"Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth.... While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element, I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free." (Eugene Debs)
Nephi
Monster Tamer
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-Chalcedonian Byzantine
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,732



« Reply #140 on: March 25, 2014, 11:59:56 AM »

Drake, have you seen this thread? Ralph has a much different view of early Christian history and what-not than you do, and likewise puts a lot of time into his ideas. I wonder which of you has a better grasp on the subject.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #141 on: March 25, 2014, 12:00:30 PM »

You are conflating nominal with cardinal numerics. John 5:43 Yehoshuwah says he comes in the name of his Father. He did not say he was the same numeric thing as his Father.

The Trinity is heresy. Yehoshuwah was subordinate to the Father, ontologically, not just functionally,

John 14: 28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

John 5: 19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever [e]the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

1 Cor. 11:3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

John 8: 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’;

John 20: 17 Jesus *said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’”
So you are asserting that John (and by extension, the rest of the NT as in the King James Bible, etc.) record what Jesus actually said?  Did they so record infallibly by inspiration?

Actually? Continuum fallacy. There is enough in the christian bibles to get to the truth.

"Did they so record infallibly by inspiration?"

>>>Yes, in a semitic language and their writings were suppressed to avoid the obvious implication: Hebrew Racial Supremacy. 
Then you have no NT, and hence you do not believe in "all of them."

so you a Jew or a Samaritan?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Olivianus
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Judaizer
Jurisdiction: Kentucky
Posts: 50



WWW
« Reply #142 on: March 25, 2014, 12:02:58 PM »

You are conflating nominal with cardinal numerics. John 5:43 Yehoshuwah says he comes in the name of his Father. He did not say he was the same numeric thing as his Father.

The Trinity is heresy. Yehoshuwah was subordinate to the Father, ontologically, not just functionally,

John 14: 28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

John 5: 19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever [e]the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

1 Cor. 11:3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

John 8: 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’;

John 20: 17 Jesus *said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’”
So you are asserting that John (and by extension, the rest of the NT as in the King James Bible, etc.) record what Jesus actually said?  Did they so record infallibly by inspiration?

Actually? Continuum fallacy. There is enough in the christian bibles to get to the truth.

"Did they so record infallibly by inspiration?"

>>>Yes, in a semitic language and their writings were suppressed to avoid the obvious implication: Hebrew Racial Supremacy. 
Then you have no NT, and hence you do not believe in "all of them."

If you mean that in order for man to have revelation that he has to have the original texts you sir are delusional.

Quote
so you a Jew or a Samaritan?

I am a white anglo saxon gentile
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #143 on: March 25, 2014, 12:03:59 PM »

What more is there to write? Calvinism was officially condemned by the Eastern Orthodox Church as heretical by the Council of Jerusalem Bethlehem in 1672.

By no means am I encouraging you to continue any engagement with Olivianus/Drake, but he's pretty clearly not a Calvinist (anymore) and rejects Christianity altogether.

I am  not a Christian but Calvin's doctrines of grace are based on a patriarchal anthropology which I cannot escape being a bible believer. Your Marxist individualism is the basis for modern communism.
Marx as an individual wasn't raised in Orthodoxy, but in the Calvinist Evangelical church of Prussia.

What Bible is it that you believe in?

Marx held your pelagian anthropology as I have already described in detail.

The different versions of the bible are the same book.
No, the Jews lack the NT
Quote
the Kentucky Calvinists follow the Jews in removing the Anagignoskomena, and the Samaritans lack anything except the Torah.
Tell me what bible you believe and I will show you you don't believe it.
Evading the question:which do you believe in?

As for myself and my household, we follow the Lord:
http://www.apostoliki-diakonia.gr/bible/bible.asp
Quote
So, which Bible is it?

All of them. At least ones that have some serious scholarship to them. Pick one and I'll show you you don't believe it.
All of them don't agree, which means you believe in none of them.

No, all of them are not jointly exhaustive. There is a difference. There is a huge degree of agreement among them, so much so that they teach the same story. Which ever one you pick the issues are the same:
You devote your website to saying that Christianity and Judaism (and by extension, Samaritanism) do not teach the same thing.

Do make up your mind.
Quote
The Renewed Covenant of Jer.31:31-32 will be replaced by Christianity’s New Testament.  The Nation of Israel will be replaced by the Gentile Church. The Hebrew Gospels and the Hebrew writings of Rav Shaul,[5] will be replaced by Greek manuscripts.  The Unitarianism of the Tanach will be replaced by the pagan Triune Godhead of Christianity, directly contradicted by the Torah,[6] which ultimately worships a monad huperousia pursuant to Plotinus’ Enneads 6 and 9. Following from this the Hebrew names of the creator and the messiah, Yahuwah and Yehoshuwah will be replaced by a Generic title: God, and the name of the Greek deity Iasos later to be translated Jesus. The Torah and all the hundreds of relational, political and economic laws revealed by Yahuwah himself will be replaced by pagan Monasticism, Asceticism, and Feudalism. The Sabbath day, which was sanctified and blessed by Yahuwah in the second chapter of the Bible as an integral part of the created order, will be replaced by the day of the Sun. The annual Sabbaths of the fall and spring feasts will be replaced by the Catholic Church’s liturgical calendar, celebrating the Bohemian pagan Christmas, the pagan celebrations of Astarte and her mystical Easter egg, and the pagan celebration of Halloween. The Protestant Christians, following Rome’s Replacement theology, still replace these feasts with their innovation known as The Lord’s Supper. Protestant Christians also follow the Catholic Catechism’s replacement of circumcision with Baptism.[7]  Following from this, the Creator’s calendar, which measures years by the ripe barley, the abib, and holding to Geocentrism, will be replaced by the Solar calendar of Rome and Jesuit Heliocentrism with the Gregorian Calendar. This religion would go on to justify prayer and worship to idols and statues and trinkets and a legion of other grotesque and abominable insanities explicitly condemned in the Torah. The past 150 years has seen an even bigger failure in Christianity to maintain any kind of religious order in Western Civilization following the Communist revolutions of the 18th and 19th centuries. Without the Hierarchy of the Catholic Church, the baseless, arbitrary theology of Christianity fell like a stack of dry leaves in the face of Marx and Engels’ wicked brilliance. The Torah established a Theocratic Republic[8] which killed anyone who prophesied falsely and promoted worship of another God.[9] This is a direct contradiction to the allegiance modern Christians have to the French Revolution’s doctrines of absolute religious toleration and freedom of speech. The Torah taught that the racial tribe of the Hebrews was more significant than any other people on the earth.[10]  Paul repeats this racial supremacy in his writings,[11] acknowledging the God-given racial privileges of the Jewish people.[12] Modern Christians reject this with their belief that all men are created equal. The Torah, though bestowing equal administrations of justice,[13] affirmed supremacies of privilege and franchise. Yahuwah gave Levites privileges and responsibilities no other class had. However, they were not given franchises other classes enjoyed.[14] The first-born son is given an unearned portion of inheritance.[15] Not only is  slavery condoned in the Bible, a person of Hebrew blood could only be enslaved for six years while a person of foreign blood could be held in hereditary slavery.[16] No mechanistic equality. The Gibeonites, though given administrations of justice,[17] were second class citizens in the Nation of Israel.[18] Women are regarded as the property of either their husband or father,[19] could only inherit property if there was no male heir[20] and are as a gender clearly referred to as ontologically subordinate to men.[21] Women are also to hold no teaching office in the religious assemblies.[22] Modern Christian women especially despise the Bible’s teaching on Head Coverings.[23] Paul teaches in Rom. 13:1-5 that Governments are established by Yahuwah. Modern Christians, in direct defiance of the Bible, following the French thinkers, say that Governments are established by the people. The Bible also condones the right of the state to physically enforce morality on the population.[24]  While some Fascist Christians do believe this, their Fascism is far too liberal to qualify for a true Bible-believing Philosophy. And finally, the Bible explicitly condemns the modern banking system, which Christian Capitalism glories in, with its prohibition against usury.[25] Thus, as we have seen, Christianity has stayed fundamentally consistent, since the 4th century and John Chrysostom’s Eight Homilies Against the Jews, in demonizing and rejecting everything Jewish. Christians, without any doubt, truly hate the Bible.

http://drakeshelton.com/2014/01/27/21-proofs-christians-hate-the-bible/


Quote
you first.

I already did. Your pelagian anthropology states that a hypostasis cannot suffer any degree of compulsion that is necessary for patriarchy. I already had this conversation.

evidently with yourself.  You know, you go blind that way.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #144 on: March 25, 2014, 12:06:31 PM »

You are conflating nominal with cardinal numerics. John 5:43 Yehoshuwah says he comes in the name of his Father. He did not say he was the same numeric thing as his Father.

The Trinity is heresy. Yehoshuwah was subordinate to the Father, ontologically, not just functionally,

John 14: 28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

John 5: 19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever [e]the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

1 Cor. 11:3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

John 8: 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’;

John 20: 17 Jesus *said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’”
So you are asserting that John (and by extension, the rest of the NT as in the King James Bible, etc.) record what Jesus actually said?  Did they so record infallibly by inspiration?

Actually? Continuum fallacy. There is enough in the christian bibles to get to the truth.

"Did they so record infallibly by inspiration?"

>>>Yes, in a semitic language and their writings were suppressed to avoid the obvious implication: Hebrew Racial Supremacy. 
Then you have no NT, and hence you do not believe in "all of them."

If you mean that in order for man to have revelation that he has to have the original texts you sir are delusional.
He has to have some text, not some delusions of a text.
Quote
so you a Jew or a Samaritan?

I am a white anglo saxon gentile
in which case the Jewish and Samaritan Scriptures have nothing for you, and you can be ignored in your obscurity.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Olivianus
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Judaizer
Jurisdiction: Kentucky
Posts: 50



WWW
« Reply #145 on: March 25, 2014, 12:11:09 PM »

What more is there to write? Calvinism was officially condemned by the Eastern Orthodox Church as heretical by the Council of Jerusalem Bethlehem in 1672.

By no means am I encouraging you to continue any engagement with Olivianus/Drake, but he's pretty clearly not a Calvinist (anymore) and rejects Christianity altogether.

I am  not a Christian but Calvin's doctrines of grace are based on a patriarchal anthropology which I cannot escape being a bible believer. Your Marxist individualism is the basis for modern communism.
Marx as an individual wasn't raised in Orthodoxy, but in the Calvinist Evangelical church of Prussia.

What Bible is it that you believe in?

Marx held your pelagian anthropology as I have already described in detail.

The different versions of the bible are the same book.
No, the Jews lack the NT
Quote
the Kentucky Calvinists follow the Jews in removing the Anagignoskomena, and the Samaritans lack anything except the Torah.
Tell me what bible you believe and I will show you you don't believe it.
Evading the question:which do you believe in?

As for myself and my household, we follow the Lord:
http://www.apostoliki-diakonia.gr/bible/bible.asp
Quote
So, which Bible is it?

All of them. At least ones that have some serious scholarship to them. Pick one and I'll show you you don't believe it.
All of them don't agree, which means you believe in none of them.

No, all of them are not jointly exhaustive. There is a difference. There is a huge degree of agreement among them, so much so that they teach the same story. Which ever one you pick the issues are the same:
You devote your website to saying that Christianity and Judaism (and by extension, Samaritanism) do not teach the same thing.

Do make up your mind.
Quote
The Renewed Covenant of Jer.31:31-32 will be replaced by Christianity’s New Testament.  The Nation of Israel will be replaced by the Gentile Church. The Hebrew Gospels and the Hebrew writings of Rav Shaul,[5] will be replaced by Greek manuscripts.  The Unitarianism of the Tanach will be replaced by the pagan Triune Godhead of Christianity, directly contradicted by the Torah,[6] which ultimately worships a monad huperousia pursuant to Plotinus’ Enneads 6 and 9. Following from this the Hebrew names of the creator and the messiah, Yahuwah and Yehoshuwah will be replaced by a Generic title: God, and the name of the Greek deity Iasos later to be translated Jesus. The Torah and all the hundreds of relational, political and economic laws revealed by Yahuwah himself will be replaced by pagan Monasticism, Asceticism, and Feudalism. The Sabbath day, which was sanctified and blessed by Yahuwah in the second chapter of the Bible as an integral part of the created order, will be replaced by the day of the Sun. The annual Sabbaths of the fall and spring feasts will be replaced by the Catholic Church’s liturgical calendar, celebrating the Bohemian pagan Christmas, the pagan celebrations of Astarte and her mystical Easter egg, and the pagan celebration of Halloween. The Protestant Christians, following Rome’s Replacement theology, still replace these feasts with their innovation known as The Lord’s Supper. Protestant Christians also follow the Catholic Catechism’s replacement of circumcision with Baptism.[7]  Following from this, the Creator’s calendar, which measures years by the ripe barley, the abib, and holding to Geocentrism, will be replaced by the Solar calendar of Rome and Jesuit Heliocentrism with the Gregorian Calendar. This religion would go on to justify prayer and worship to idols and statues and trinkets and a legion of other grotesque and abominable insanities explicitly condemned in the Torah. The past 150 years has seen an even bigger failure in Christianity to maintain any kind of religious order in Western Civilization following the Communist revolutions of the 18th and 19th centuries. Without the Hierarchy of the Catholic Church, the baseless, arbitrary theology of Christianity fell like a stack of dry leaves in the face of Marx and Engels’ wicked brilliance. The Torah established a Theocratic Republic[8] which killed anyone who prophesied falsely and promoted worship of another God.[9] This is a direct contradiction to the allegiance modern Christians have to the French Revolution’s doctrines of absolute religious toleration and freedom of speech. The Torah taught that the racial tribe of the Hebrews was more significant than any other people on the earth.[10]  Paul repeats this racial supremacy in his writings,[11] acknowledging the God-given racial privileges of the Jewish people.[12] Modern Christians reject this with their belief that all men are created equal. The Torah, though bestowing equal administrations of justice,[13] affirmed supremacies of privilege and franchise. Yahuwah gave Levites privileges and responsibilities no other class had. However, they were not given franchises other classes enjoyed.[14] The first-born son is given an unearned portion of inheritance.[15] Not only is  slavery condoned in the Bible, a person of Hebrew blood could only be enslaved for six years while a person of foreign blood could be held in hereditary slavery.[16] No mechanistic equality. The Gibeonites, though given administrations of justice,[17] were second class citizens in the Nation of Israel.[18] Women are regarded as the property of either their husband or father,[19] could only inherit property if there was no male heir[20] and are as a gender clearly referred to as ontologically subordinate to men.[21] Women are also to hold no teaching office in the religious assemblies.[22] Modern Christian women especially despise the Bible’s teaching on Head Coverings.[23] Paul teaches in Rom. 13:1-5 that Governments are established by Yahuwah. Modern Christians, in direct defiance of the Bible, following the French thinkers, say that Governments are established by the people. The Bible also condones the right of the state to physically enforce morality on the population.[24]  While some Fascist Christians do believe this, their Fascism is far too liberal to qualify for a true Bible-believing Philosophy. And finally, the Bible explicitly condemns the modern banking system, which Christian Capitalism glories in, with its prohibition against usury.[25] Thus, as we have seen, Christianity has stayed fundamentally consistent, since the 4th century and John Chrysostom’s Eight Homilies Against the Jews, in demonizing and rejecting everything Jewish. Christians, without any doubt, truly hate the Bible.

http://drakeshelton.com/2014/01/27/21-proofs-christians-hate-the-bible/


Quote
you first.

I already did. Your pelagian anthropology states that a hypostasis cannot suffer any degree of compulsion that is necessary for patriarchy. I already had this conversation.

evidently with yourself.  You know, you go blind that way.

It was around post 68
Logged
Olivianus
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Judaizer
Jurisdiction: Kentucky
Posts: 50



WWW
« Reply #146 on: March 25, 2014, 12:13:28 PM »

You are conflating nominal with cardinal numerics. John 5:43 Yehoshuwah says he comes in the name of his Father. He did not say he was the same numeric thing as his Father.

The Trinity is heresy. Yehoshuwah was subordinate to the Father, ontologically, not just functionally,

John 14: 28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

John 5: 19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever [e]the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

1 Cor. 11:3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

John 8: 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’;

John 20: 17 Jesus *said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’”
So you are asserting that John (and by extension, the rest of the NT as in the King James Bible, etc.) record what Jesus actually said?  Did they so record infallibly by inspiration?

Actually? Continuum fallacy. There is enough in the christian bibles to get to the truth.

"Did they so record infallibly by inspiration?"

>>>Yes, in a semitic language and their writings were suppressed to avoid the obvious implication: Hebrew Racial Supremacy. 
Then you have no NT, and hence you do not believe in "all of them."

If you mean that in order for man to have revelation that he has to have the original texts you sir are delusional.
He has to have some text, not some delusions of a text.

There are over 5000 that I study regularly.

Quote
in which case the Jewish and Samaritan Scriptures have nothing for you, and you can be ignored in your obscurity.

More assertions. I am still waiting for the list of arguments I have made to be answered.

Start here: http://drakeshelton.com/2014/01/27/21-proofs-christians-hate-the-bible/
Logged
Olivianus
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Judaizer
Jurisdiction: Kentucky
Posts: 50



WWW
« Reply #147 on: March 25, 2014, 12:14:08 PM »

I am still waiting for the list of arguments I have made to be answered.

Start here: http://drakeshelton.com/2014/01/27/21-proofs-christians-hate-the-bible/
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 12:14:18 PM by Olivianus » Logged
Skydive
Moderated
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 518



« Reply #148 on: March 25, 2014, 12:15:58 PM »

The preaching of Christ seems to focus more on charity and well doing, well being, socialism, humanity, morality like that is the Church, not some institution. The institutional religion is what condemned and murdered Christ and against whom Christ focussed most of his refutation.

Whether the Jews held it up properly or not, didn't Christ institute that same religion?

Then why aren't Christians, Jews?

The Jews of yesterday are Christians. The Jews of today are not.

Christianity has some concepts that are totally foreign and antijewish.

That is an honest Christian there.

Based on Rashi's 11th century teachings; and not on the Apostle's 1st century teachings.

You don't believe the apostle's 1st century teachings:

Rom. 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Rom. 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

Rom. 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

1 John 3:4 Sin is a transgression of the law


I can give you a lot of NT quote showing that the Law has changed.

I think the Apostles were confused.

Judaism is an offshoot of paganism. Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism...
Christianity isn't an offshot Judaism, nor Judaism an offshoot of paganism, so I can't put much stock in your knowledge of paganism.

Most of Judaism mythology = Middle Eastern mythology that was prelevant among heathen peoples. Abraham himself according to the Bible came from the heathens. Some archeologists say that the jews were actually a caananite nomadic tribe and that Yahweh was at some point(initially?) heathen caananite deity and his wife was Astarte. The Documentary Hypothesis says the "Torah" "Pentateuch" was not written by Moses but had multiple authors. Some of the laws in the Torah and the stories in it are totally unappealing to intelligent ethics and values. It's clear history that before there ever was a "Judaism" there was "Paganism" and that "Christianity" sprang forth from "Judaism". Judaism seems to have some syncretic pagan parts and for sure Christianity has syncretic Jewish teachings and Christianity came forth from the background of Judaism and the religion of the Jews.
I haven't asked you to barf up more rancid bites of pseudoscholarship that some "experts" have prechewed for you, such as "Most of Judaism mythology = Middle Eastern mythology that was prelevant among heathen peoples."  For one thing, "most" =/= "all."

Nor is "none" as you asserted.

Quote
The Bible says that Abraham came from the heathen? Oh, where does it say that?

Abraham's departure from Ur. We are later told that Abraham's relatives in Ur were worshipping idols(Rachel stealing the idols of he fathers). You can find Abraham's departure from Ur in the Jewish Scriptures, Christian Scriptures and Muslims Scriptures. Make your pick.

Quote
Yes, I'm aware of the theory of a Yahweh-Astarte pair, and the meagre evidence twisted into such a narrative.  The Biblical narrative of the Hebrews falling into Canaanite paganism and assimilating the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob into it fits better.

Scholars say that most of the Tanakh was written during the Babylonian captivity to explain the Jewish condition.

Quote
The documentary hypothesis is for one thing, plural: its partisans can't agree amongst themselves on it.  Since the Pentateuch/Torah doesn't say that Moses wrote it, there doesn't seem to be much point on arguing it.

Then you got a problem. Because if Moses didn't write it then who did? There is little to no proof of the historicy of Moses or the existence of Israel in Egypt and the Exodus. What basis do you have for the inspiration of the Torah?

Quote
"Some of the laws in the Torah and the stories in it are totally unappealing to intelligent ethics and values." I know that they don't appeal to the smug who think they know better, and don't want anything prove the contrary.  Atheism-the opiate of the dissolute.

Actually the Judeo-Christian-Islamic theology is the one who appeals to smugs and trolls who find justification of criminal, obscure acts in their religion.

Considering that the laws are primitive and cannot be universally bind as ethical and that it had many authors and editor, what makes your "torah" inspired and authoritative? Where it's her authority drawed from?

Quote
Since Judaism dates from the time of Christ, and their Torah warns them of the Canaanite paganism over a thousand years before that, of course paganism (some form of it at least) predates it.

What Torah? Didn't you say that Moses did not write the Torah? According to the Documentary Hypothesis the Torah was compiled and finished mostly around the 6th century BCE. The Caananite religion preceded that, and all pagan religions did. Plus there were many "scrolls of the laws". On the time of King Josiah the High Priest Hilkiah "discovered" a scroll of the law they knew nothing about and that they were transgressing at that moment. As I said no proof of an Israeli migration according to archaeology. So what authority does the Torah hold then? Where does this authority come from? From her editors, redactors, etc? Smiley "How do you say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly he made it falsely; the pen of the scribes made it a lie."(Jer 8:Cool


Quote
Since the New Testament predates the Talmud, how did the former's Christianity "spring forth from" the latter's Judaism?

Since the OT precedes the NT, Christianity is a sect of Judaism, as your bible says "We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect" Acts 24:5
Logged

"I will not attack your doctrines nor your creeds if they accord liberty to me. If they hold thought to be dangerous - if they aver that doubt is a crime, then I attack them one and all, because they enslave the minds of men."

Robert Green Ingersoll
Skydive
Moderated
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 518



« Reply #149 on: March 25, 2014, 12:19:04 PM »

You are conflating nominal with cardinal numerics. John 5:43 Yehoshuwah says he comes in the name of his Father. He did not say he was the same numeric thing as his Father.

The Trinity is heresy. Yehoshuwah was subordinate to the Father, ontologically, not just functionally,

John 14: 28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

John 5: 19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever [e]the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

1 Cor. 11:3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

John 8: 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’;

John 20: 17 Jesus *said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’”
So you are asserting that John (and by extension, the rest of the NT as in the King James Bible, etc.) record what Jesus actually said?  Did they so record infallibly by inspiration?

Why don't you answer that one. Did they? Smiley
Logged

"I will not attack your doctrines nor your creeds if they accord liberty to me. If they hold thought to be dangerous - if they aver that doubt is a crime, then I attack them one and all, because they enslave the minds of men."

Robert Green Ingersoll
Nephi
Monster Tamer
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-Chalcedonian Byzantine
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch
Posts: 4,732



« Reply #150 on: March 25, 2014, 12:24:30 PM »

What Torah? Didn't you say that Moses did not write the Torah? According to the Documentary Hypothesis the Torah was compiled and finished mostly around the 6th century BCE. The Caananite religion preceded that, and all pagan religions did. Plus there were many "scrolls of the laws". On the time of King Josiah the High Priest Hilkiah "discovered" a scroll of the law they knew nothing about and that they were transgressing at that moment. As I said no proof of an Israeli migration according to archaeology. So what authority does the Torah hold then? Where does this authority come from? From her editors, redactors, etc? Smiley "How do you say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly he made it falsely; the pen of the scribes made it a lie."(Jer 8:Cool

Have you really not encountered engagement with Biblical criticism outside of fundamentalist responses?

See Vatican II's Dei Verbum, James Kugel's How to Read the Bible, etc. for an idea of how the Church, as well as ancient Rabbis and Fathers perceived, read, and interpreted these texts. Their use as an ecclesiastical document does not hinge on their absolute uniform historicity, nor their authors being those as traditionally understood, nor the accuracy of texts as historical narratives (e.g. the etiological accounts of Cain, the Israeli-Canaanite "division," etc.), and therefore not even authorial intent.

From Dei Verbum:

Quote
12. However, since God speaks in Sacred Scripture through men in human fashion, (6) the interpreter of Sacred Scripture, in order to see clearly what God wanted to communicate to us, should carefully investigate what meaning the sacred writers really intended, and what God wanted to manifest by means of their words.

Emphasis mine.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 12:25:25 PM by Nephi » Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #151 on: March 25, 2014, 02:10:31 PM »

I haven't asked you to barf up more rancid bites of pseudoscholarship that some "experts" have prechewed for you, such as "Most of Judaism mythology = Middle Eastern mythology that was prelevant among heathen peoples."  For one thing, "most" =/= "all."

Nor is "none" as you asserted.
I haven't asserted a thing, except the facts that "most" =/= "all," and Judaism isn't an offshoot of paganism (a rather amorphous term).

Quote
The Bible says that Abraham came from the heathen? Oh, where does it say that?

Abraham's departure from Ur. We are later told that Abraham's relatives in Ur were worshipping idols(Rachel stealing the idols of he fathers). You can find Abraham's departure from Ur in the Jewish Scriptures, Christian Scriptures and Muslims Scriptures. Make your pick.
I'm from Chicago. Doesn't make me a Democrat.

Rachel and her father grew up in Harran, after Abraham departed from it.

Btw, Abraham's departure from Ur isn't in Muslim Scriptures. That would be enough to make me question your grasp of the material at hand, if it hadn't been evident before.

Quote
Yes, I'm aware of the theory of a Yahweh-Astarte pair, and the meagre evidence twisted into such a narrative.  The Biblical narrative of the Hebrews falling into Canaanite paganism and assimilating the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob into it fits better.

Scholars say that most of the Tanakh was written during the Babylonian captivity to explain the Jewish condition.
And even if true, and?

Quote
The documentary hypothesis is for one thing, plural: its partisans can't agree amongst themselves on it.  Since the Pentateuch/Torah doesn't say that Moses wrote it, there doesn't seem to be much point on arguing it.
Then you got a problem. Because if Moses didn't write it then who did? There is little to no proof of the historicy of Moses or the existence of Israel in Egypt and the Exodus. What basis do you have for the inspiration of the Torah?
Since you haven't identified what problem I'd have, we have no basis to discuss your last question.

As for the existence of Israel, that is securely dated as a people c.1208 BC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merneptah_Stele#.22Israel_is_laid_waste.22
As for the Exodus, go find another monument that the Egyptians erected to commemorate their defeat by anyone.  The Egyptian historian Manentho does record an expulsion of foreigners who, according to him, settled in Palestine and founded Jerusalem.

Hmmmm. Who could that be? Roll Eyes

Quote
"Some of the laws in the Torah and the stories in it are totally unappealing to intelligent ethics and values." I know that they don't appeal to the smug who think they know better, and don't want anything prove the contrary.  Atheism-the opiate of the dissolute.
Actually the Judeo-Christian-Islamic theology is the one who appeals to smugs and trolls who find justification of criminal, obscure acts in their religion.

Considering that the laws are primitive and cannot be universally bind as ethical and that it had many authors and editor, what makes your "torah" inspired and authoritative? Where it's her authority drawed from?
Care to put some meat on that dry bone?  as opposed to vague accusation? Otherwise, we have no basis of comparison to weigh your "claims."

Quote
Since Judaism dates from the time of Christ, and their Torah warns them of the Canaanite paganism over a thousand years before that, of course paganism (some form of it at least) predates it.
What Torah? Didn't you say that Moses did not write the Torah? According to the Documentary Hypothesis the Torah was compiled and finished mostly around the 6th century BCE. The Caananite religion preceded that, and all pagan religions did. Plus there were many "scrolls of the laws". On the time of King Josiah the High Priest Hilkiah "discovered" a scroll of the law they knew nothing about and that they were transgressing at that moment. As I said no proof of an Israeli migration according to archaeology. So what authority does the Torah hold then? Where does this authority come from? From her editors, redactors, etc? Smiley "How do you say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly he made it falsely; the pen of the scribes made it a lie."(Jer 8:Cool
"Finished mostly around the 6th century BC" (I don't go for the BCE crap).  The material is actually older than that (to go into the evidence of that, perhaps we would have to wean you off the milky Kool Aid first), but we'll go with 6th century BC.  That is still talking about Canaanite paganism half a millenium before the rise of Judaism.

As for the migration, none of the ancients doubted it. Herodotus, for instance, refers to them as Egyptians and the 'Syrians of Palestine', because of their practice of circumcision in the 5th century. Starting around 1200 BC, Palestinian settlements come up in the archaeological record lacking pig bones, something found in abundance earlier and in other settlements.

The archaeological record is nowhere as full and clear as you would like it to be.

You can't handle the facts of earth.  How are you to deal with facts of heaven, and the authority of Scripture?

Quote
Since the New Testament predates the Talmud, how did the former's Christianity "spring forth from" the latter's Judaism?

Since the OT precedes the NT, Christianity is a sect of Judaism, as your bible says "We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect" Acts 24:5
For your point to be valid, the Tanakh would have to precede the OT.

"Jew" in the above verse, btw, is the same for "Judaean," e.g.  "King of the Jews."
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #152 on: March 25, 2014, 02:12:50 PM »

You are conflating nominal with cardinal numerics. John 5:43 Yehoshuwah says he comes in the name of his Father. He did not say he was the same numeric thing as his Father.

The Trinity is heresy. Yehoshuwah was subordinate to the Father, ontologically, not just functionally,

John 14: 28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

John 5: 19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever [e]the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

1 Cor. 11:3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

John 8: 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’;

John 20: 17 Jesus *said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’”
So you are asserting that John (and by extension, the rest of the NT as in the King James Bible, etc.) record what Jesus actually said?  Did they so record infallibly by inspiration?

Why don't you answer that one. Did they? Smiley
Yes, but citing their authority is a waste of time to someone who denies it.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #153 on: March 25, 2014, 02:16:10 PM »

You are conflating nominal with cardinal numerics. John 5:43 Yehoshuwah says he comes in the name of his Father. He did not say he was the same numeric thing as his Father.

The Trinity is heresy. Yehoshuwah was subordinate to the Father, ontologically, not just functionally,

John 14: 28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

John 5: 19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever [e]the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

1 Cor. 11:3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

John 8: 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God’;

John 20: 17 Jesus *said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’”
So you are asserting that John (and by extension, the rest of the NT as in the King James Bible, etc.) record what Jesus actually said?  Did they so record infallibly by inspiration?

Actually? Continuum fallacy. There is enough in the christian bibles to get to the truth.

"Did they so record infallibly by inspiration?"

>>>Yes, in a semitic language and their writings were suppressed to avoid the obvious implication: Hebrew Racial Supremacy. 
Then you have no NT, and hence you do not believe in "all of them."

If you mean that in order for man to have revelation that he has to have the original texts you sir are delusional.
He has to have some text, not some delusions of a text.

There are over 5000 that I study regularly.
Then produce them.

Quote
in which case the Jewish and Samaritan Scriptures have nothing for you, and you can be ignored in your obscurity.
More assertions. I am still waiting for the list of arguments I have made to be answered.

Start here: http://drakeshelton.com/2014/01/27/21-proofs-christians-hate-the-bible/
no, I don't need your spit up milk.  you have to be weaned for some meat.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,142



« Reply #154 on: March 25, 2014, 02:19:12 PM »

I already did. Your pelagian anthropology states that a hypostasis cannot suffer any degree of compulsion that is necessary for patriarchy. I already had this conversation.

evidently with yourself.  You know, you go blind that way.

It was around post 68
I see, here
What more is there to write? Calvinism was officially condemned by the Eastern Orthodox Church as heretical by the Council of Jerusalem Bethlehem in 1672.

By no means am I encouraging you to continue any engagement with Olivianus/Drake, but he's pretty clearly not a Calvinist (anymore) and rejects Christianity altogether.

I am  not a Christian but Calvin's doctrines of grace are based on a patriarchal anthropology which I cannot escape being a bible believer. Your Marxist individualism is the basis for modern communism.

Where is the "marxist individualism" in either Nephi's or Fr John's posts you have quoted? If you're attempting to smear either or both of them, it speaks volumes about how shallow and bereft your ideas are.

You guys are pelagians in your anthropology. You think it is against free will that any human suffer under compulsions either outward or inward. You think for a person's identity to be determined in any measure by someone else to be against free will. That is why you are against patriarchy. Patriarchy requires compulsion.  

What does pelagianism (which Orthodoxy isn't, BTW, pelagianism is a declared heresy) have to do with Marxism?  Huh Huh Huh

No natural compulsions. The person is free to act any way they will. Women can be equal to men. Women need not be confined to traditional roles based on nature because nature means nothing when it comes to action. Blacks are equal to whites and nature plays no part in their activity. Sure blacks can be accepted into Harvard on affirmative action and make straight A's because nature has not dictated how smart the black man is. Sure, he'll pass with flying colors because he has evoked the gnomie to do so. At least that is the philosophy; though we all know it isn't true, we say it is to make us all feel better.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
orthonorm
Moderated
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,670



« Reply #155 on: March 25, 2014, 02:43:29 PM »

no, I don't need your spit up milk.  you have to be weaned for some meat.

How are you reading this stuff? It's like he went out of his to make his writing impossible to look at.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
NicholasMyra
Avowed denominationalist
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 6,073


Nepsis or Sepsis™


« Reply #156 on: March 25, 2014, 03:38:16 PM »

Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.
hecma925
Non-clairvoyant
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 7,296


Pray for me, a sinner.


WWW
« Reply #157 on: March 25, 2014, 04:00:46 PM »

no, I don't need your spit up milk.  you have to be weaned for some meat.

How are you reading this stuff? It's like he went out of his to make his writing impossible to look at.

I wish he had put up Queen Elizabeth II as a background.  Much more cheery, IMHO.
Logged

Skydive
Moderated
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 518



« Reply #158 on: March 25, 2014, 04:05:03 PM »

I haven't asked you to barf up more rancid bites of pseudoscholarship that some "experts" have prechewed for you, such as "Most of Judaism mythology = Middle Eastern mythology that was prelevant among heathen peoples."  For one thing, "most" =/= "all."

Nor is "none" as you asserted.
I haven't asserted a thing, except the facts that "most" =/= "all," and Judaism isn't an offshoot of paganism (a rather amorphous term).

Then where does Judaism come from?
Quote
Quote
The Bible says that Abraham came from the heathen? Oh, where does it say that?

Abraham's departure from Ur. We are later told that Abraham's relatives in Ur were worshipping idols(Rachel stealing the idols of he fathers). You can find Abraham's departure from Ur in the Jewish Scriptures, Christian Scriptures and Muslims Scriptures. Make your pick.
I'm from Chicago. Doesn't make me a Democrat.

Rachel and her father grew up in Harran, after Abraham departed from it.

Btw, Abraham's departure from Ur isn't in Muslim Scriptures. That would be enough to make me question your grasp of the material at hand, if it hadn't been evident before.

It doesn't matter. Paganism precedes any drop of Judaism and/or Christianity. The background where Abraham came from was most likely pagan.
Quote
Quote
Yes, I'm aware of the theory of a Yahweh-Astarte pair, and the meagre evidence twisted into such a narrative.  The Biblical narrative of the Hebrews falling into Canaanite paganism and assimilating the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob into it fits better.

Scholars say that most of the Tanakh was written during the Babylonian captivity to explain the Jewish condition.
And even if true, and?

And it is a lie. It did not happen. What part of that reasoning don't you understand?
Quote
Quote
The documentary hypothesis is for one thing, plural: its partisans can't agree amongst themselves on it.  Since the Pentateuch/Torah doesn't say that Moses wrote it, there doesn't seem to be much point on arguing it.
Then you got a problem. Because if Moses didn't write it then who did? There is little to no proof of the historicy of Moses or the existence of Israel in Egypt and the Exodus. What basis do you have for the inspiration of the Torah?
Since you haven't identified what problem I'd have, we have no basis to discuss your last question.

As for the existence of Israel, that is securely dated as a people c.1208 BC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merneptah_Stele#.22Israel_is_laid_waste.22

Dubious inscription to say the least and not a definite proof. No certain proof that that is actually Israel just because 3 letters from 6 match. It is a communality in manhood for cities to have similar prefixes or suffixes or whatever. There is an Arad in Israel and an Arad in Romania and they are diametrically opposed, having nothing to do one with the other.

Quote
As for the Exodus, go find another monument that the Egyptians erected to commemorate their defeat by anyone.  The Egyptian historian Manentho does record an expulsion of foreigners who, according to him, settled in Palestine and founded Jerusalem.

Hmmmm. Who could that be? Roll Eyes


I'll need to see some quotations for that.

Quote
Quote
"Some of the laws in the Torah and the stories in it are totally unappealing to intelligent ethics and values." I know that they don't appeal to the smug who think they know better, and don't want anything prove the contrary.  Atheism-the opiate of the dissolute.
Actually the Judeo-Christian-Islamic theology is the one who appeals to smugs and trolls who find justification of criminal, obscure acts in their religion.

Considering that the laws are primitive and cannot be universally bind as ethical and that it had many authors and editor, what makes your "torah" inspired and authoritative? Where it's her authority drawed from?
Care to put some meat on that dry bone?  as opposed to vague accusation? Otherwise, we have no basis of comparison to weigh your "claims."

Sure.. Animal sacrifice, genocide, infanticide, crimes, slavery, rape, kashrut .. and some verses :

Quote
Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't have a variety of crops on the same field. (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't wear clothes made of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27)

Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed. (Leviticus 20:9)  Have you ever done that?

If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die. (Leviticus 20:10).  I wonder if Dr. Laura would like that one to be enforced?

If a man sleeps with his father's wife... both him and his father's wife is to be put to death. (Leviticus 20:11)

If a man sleeps with his wife and her mother they are all to be burnt to death.  (Leviticus 20:14)

If a man or woman has sex with an animal, both human and animal must be killed. (Leviticus 20:15-16).  I guess you should kill the animal since they were willing participants.  Are they crazy?

If a man has sex with a woman on her period, they are both to be "cut off from their people" (Leviticus 20:18)

Psychics, wizards, and so on are to be stoned to death.  (Leviticus 20:27)

If a priest's daughter is a whore, she is to be burnt at the stake.  (Leviticus 21:9)

People who have flat noses, or is blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17-18)

Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community.  (Leviticus 24:14-16)

Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)
Quote
Your wife defending your life in a fight by grabbing your attacker's genitals. No joke. Deuteronomy actually devotes two verses to this exact scenario: Deuteronomy 25:11-12.

"If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity."

Letting people without testicles into church. Whether you've been castrated or lost one or two balls to cancer isn't important. The Bible doesn't get that specific. It just says you can't pray.

Deuteronomy 23:1 reads (this is the God's Word translation, which spells it out better), "A man whose testicles are crushed or whose penis is cut off may never join the assembly of the Lord."

Quote
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
    Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death.  Such evil must be purged from Israel.  (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
 
Kill Witches
    You should not let a sorceress live.  (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
 
Kill Homosexuals
    "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."  (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
List truncated to enforce compliance with fair use provisions of U.S. copyright law  -PtA
 - See the entire list here : http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm and to that I add the man who was gathering wood on the Sabbath killed because of it. Here's another category http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm and another http://www.evilbible.com/Slavery.htm and another http://www.evilbible.com/evils%20of%20the%20torah.htm
Quote
Quote
Since Judaism dates from the time of Christ, and their Torah warns them of the Canaanite paganism over a thousand years before that, of course paganism (some form of it at least) predates it.
What Torah? Didn't you say that Moses did not write the Torah? According to the Documentary Hypothesis the Torah was compiled and finished mostly around the 6th century BCE. The Caananite religion preceded that, and all pagan religions did. Plus there were many "scrolls of the laws". On the time of King Josiah the High Priest Hilkiah "discovered" a scroll of the law they knew nothing about and that they were transgressing at that moment. As I said no proof of an Israeli migration according to archaeology. So what authority does the Torah hold then? Where does this authority come from? From her editors, redactors, etc? Smiley "How do you say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly he made it falsely; the pen of the scribes made it a lie."(Jer 8:Cool
"Finished mostly around the 6th century BC" (I don't go for the BCE crap).  The material is actually older than that (to go into the evidence of that, perhaps we would have to wean you off the milky Kool Aid first), but we'll go with 6th century BC.  That is still talking about Canaanite paganism half a millenium before the rise of Judaism.

Material? No architectural and historical support for Canaan conquest, no architectural support for the Exodus, the language of Genesis reveals a late composition (language, towns, kings, camels etc), the Jews are said to be 600 000 people or something when they left Egypt, not even entire Egypt had this population at that time. Judaism is an offshoot of a tribal heathen caananite and middle-eastern religion. Comes from Canaanite mythology.

Quote
As for the migration, none of the ancients doubted it. Herodotus, for instance, refers to them as Egyptians and the 'Syrians of Palestine', because of their practice of circumcision in the 5th century. Starting around 1200 BC, Palestinian settlements come up in the archaeological record lacking pig bones, something found in abundance earlier and in other settlements.

The archaeological record is nowhere as full and clear as you would like it to be.

It's very clear when it speaks of names and names of countries and cities. Syria ≠ Israel , Palestine ≠ Israel.

Quote
You can't handle the facts of earth.  How are you to deal with facts of heaven, and the authority of Scripture?

Facts? still waiting for them. While Scripture is an interesting book it is at the same time a sickening one. Facts of heaven? Are you sure you know the definition of the word 'fact' ?

Quote
Quote
Since the New Testament predates the Talmud, how did the former's Christianity "spring forth from" the latter's Judaism?

Since the OT precedes the NT, Christianity is a sect of Judaism, as your bible says "We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect" Acts 24:5
For your point to be valid, the Tanakh would have to precede the OT.

"Jew" in the above verse, btw, is the same for "Judaean," e.g.  "King of the Jews."

Tanakh = OT =))

The Jews had their religion which existed before the 1st century and in whom Jesus and the Apostles were educate, you know the Gods of your religion whom you worship and venerate. Yes.. They were Jews Sad..
« Last Edit: March 25, 2014, 04:15:16 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged

"I will not attack your doctrines nor your creeds if they accord liberty to me. If they hold thought to be dangerous - if they aver that doubt is a crime, then I attack them one and all, because they enslave the minds of men."

Robert Green Ingersoll
Skydive
Moderated
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 518



« Reply #159 on: March 25, 2014, 04:07:41 PM »

What Torah? Didn't you say that Moses did not write the Torah? According to the Documentary Hypothesis the Torah was compiled and finished mostly around the 6th century BCE. The Caananite religion preceded that, and all pagan religions did. Plus there were many "scrolls of the laws". On the time of King Josiah the High Priest Hilkiah "discovered" a scroll of the law they knew nothing about and that they were transgressing at that moment. As I said no proof of an Israeli migration according to archaeology. So what authority does the Torah hold then? Where does this authority come from? From her editors, redactors, etc? Smiley "How do you say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly he made it falsely; the pen of the scribes made it a lie."(Jer 8:Cool

Have you really not encountered engagement with Biblical criticism outside of fundamentalist responses?

See Vatican II's Dei Verbum, James Kugel's How to Read the Bible, etc. for an idea of how the Church, as well as ancient Rabbis and Fathers perceived, read, and interpreted these texts. Their use as an ecclesiastical document does not hinge on their absolute uniform historicity, nor their authors being those as traditionally understood, nor the accuracy of texts as historical narratives (e.g. the etiological accounts of Cain, the Israeli-Canaanite "division," etc.), and therefore not even authorial intent.

From Dei Verbum:

Quote
12. However, since God speaks in Sacred Scripture through men in human fashion, (6) the interpreter of Sacred Scripture, in order to see clearly what God wanted to communicate to us, should carefully investigate what meaning the sacred writers really intended, and what God wanted to manifest by means of their words.

Emphasis mine.

And if it did not happen it is a lie. Why do you believe a lie? Why didn't they say that this story is a parable or so and so on.
Logged

"I will not attack your doctrines nor your creeds if they accord liberty to me. If they hold thought to be dangerous - if they aver that doubt is a crime, then I attack them one and all, because they enslave the minds of men."

Robert Green Ingersoll
Ansgar
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: More than an inquirer, less than a catechumen
Jurisdiction: Exarchate of orthodox churches of russian tradition in western Europe
Posts: 3,008


Keep your mind in hell and do not despair


« Reply #160 on: March 25, 2014, 04:15:59 PM »

Quote
the Jews are said to be 600 000 people or something when they left Egypt, not even entire Egypt had this population at that time.

 If I remember correctly, Egypt had, at this point in time, between 3 and 3.5 million inhabitants, while the number of Israelites (and those who left with them), if taken literally, would have been around 2 million.

Still higly unlikely, but I just thought I would mention it.   
Logged

Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite
Ansgar
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: More than an inquirer, less than a catechumen
Jurisdiction: Exarchate of orthodox churches of russian tradition in western Europe
Posts: 3,008


Keep your mind in hell and do not despair


« Reply #161 on: March 25, 2014, 04:21:00 PM »

What Torah? Didn't you say that Moses did not write the Torah? According to the Documentary Hypothesis the Torah was compiled and finished mostly around the 6th century BCE. The Caananite religion preceded that, and all pagan religions did. Plus there were many "scrolls of the laws". On the time of King Josiah the High Priest Hilkiah "discovered" a scroll of the law they knew nothing about and that they were transgressing at that moment. As I said no proof of an Israeli migration according to archaeology. So what authority does the Torah hold then? Where does this authority come from? From her editors, redactors, etc? Smiley "How do you say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly he made it falsely; the pen of the scribes made it a lie."(Jer 8:Cool

Have you really not encountered engagement with Biblical criticism outside of fundamentalist responses?

See Vatican II's Dei Verbum, James Kugel's How to Read the Bible, etc. for an idea of how the Church, as well as ancient Rabbis and Fathers perceived, read, and interpreted these texts. Their use as an ecclesiastical document does not hinge on their absolute uniform historicity, nor their authors being those as traditionally understood, nor the accuracy of texts as historical narratives (e.g. the etiological accounts of Cain, the Israeli-Canaanite "division," etc.), and therefore not even authorial intent.

From Dei Verbum:

Quote
12. However, since God speaks in Sacred Scripture through men in human fashion, (6) the interpreter of Sacred Scripture, in order to see clearly what God wanted to communicate to us, should carefully investigate what meaning the sacred writers really intended, and what God wanted to manifest by means of their words.

Emphasis mine.

And if it did not happen it is a lie. Why do you believe a lie? Why didn't they say that this story is a parable or so and so on.

Technically not a lie. It would be a lie if the authors had purposely withhold the truth. Last time I checked, biblical scholars were in disagreement about whether or not the authors had intented the whole text to be taken literally.
Logged

Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite
Skydive
Moderated
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 518



« Reply #162 on: March 25, 2014, 04:25:39 PM »

What Torah? Didn't you say that Moses did not write the Torah? According to the Documentary Hypothesis the Torah was compiled and finished mostly around the 6th century BCE. The Caananite religion preceded that, and all pagan religions did. Plus there were many "scrolls of the laws". On the time of King Josiah the High Priest Hilkiah "discovered" a scroll of the law they knew nothing about and that they were transgressing at that moment. As I said no proof of an Israeli migration according to archaeology. So what authority does the Torah hold then? Where does this authority come from? From her editors, redactors, etc? Smiley "How do you say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly he made it falsely; the pen of the scribes made it a lie."(Jer 8:Cool

Have you really not encountered engagement with Biblical criticism outside of fundamentalist responses?

See Vatican II's Dei Verbum, James Kugel's How to Read the Bible, etc. for an idea of how the Church, as well as ancient Rabbis and Fathers perceived, read, and interpreted these texts. Their use as an ecclesiastical document does not hinge on their absolute uniform historicity, nor their authors being those as traditionally understood, nor the accuracy of texts as historical narratives (e.g. the etiological accounts of Cain, the Israeli-Canaanite "division," etc.), and therefore not even authorial intent.

From Dei Verbum:

Quote
12. However, since God speaks in Sacred Scripture through men in human fashion, (6) the interpreter of Sacred Scripture, in order to see clearly what God wanted to communicate to us, should carefully investigate what meaning the sacred writers really intended, and what God wanted to manifest by means of their words.

Emphasis mine.

And if it did not happen it is a lie. Why do you believe a lie? Why didn't they say that this story is a parable or so and so on.

Technically not a lie. It would be a lie if the authors had purposely withhold the truth. Last time I checked, biblical scholars were in disagreement about whether or not the authors had intented the whole text to be taken literally.

A half-truth is a lie.
Logged

"I will not attack your doctrines nor your creeds if they accord liberty to me. If they hold thought to be dangerous - if they aver that doubt is a crime, then I attack them one and all, because they enslave the minds of men."

Robert Green Ingersoll
orthonorm
Moderated
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,670



« Reply #163 on: March 25, 2014, 04:26:29 PM »

What Torah? Didn't you say that Moses did not write the Torah? According to the Documentary Hypothesis the Torah was compiled and finished mostly around the 6th century BCE. The Caananite religion preceded that, and all pagan religions did. Plus there were many "scrolls of the laws". On the time of King Josiah the High Priest Hilkiah "discovered" a scroll of the law they knew nothing about and that they were transgressing at that moment. As I said no proof of an Israeli migration according to archaeology. So what authority does the Torah hold then? Where does this authority come from? From her editors, redactors, etc? Smiley "How do you say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly he made it falsely; the pen of the scribes made it a lie."(Jer 8:Cool

Have you really not encountered engagement with Biblical criticism outside of fundamentalist responses?

See Vatican II's Dei Verbum, James Kugel's How to Read the Bible, etc. for an idea of how the Church, as well as ancient Rabbis and Fathers perceived, read, and interpreted these texts. Their use as an ecclesiastical document does not hinge on their absolute uniform historicity, nor their authors being those as traditionally understood, nor the accuracy of texts as historical narratives (e.g. the etiological accounts of Cain, the Israeli-Canaanite "division," etc.), and therefore not even authorial intent.

From Dei Verbum:

Quote
12. However, since God speaks in Sacred Scripture through men in human fashion, (6) the interpreter of Sacred Scripture, in order to see clearly what God wanted to communicate to us, should carefully investigate what meaning the sacred writers really intended, and what God wanted to manifest by means of their words.

Emphasis mine.

And if it did not happen it is a lie. Why do you believe a lie? Why didn't they say that this story is a parable or so and so on.

Technically not a lie. It would be a lie if the authors had purposely withhold the truth. Last time I checked, biblical scholars were in disagreement about whether or not the authors had intented the whole text to be taken literally.

To both Skydive's and Isa's chagrin, the Church isn't found in trivia. So really this whole back and forth is just demonstration of rhetoric. Lest the sincere get confused.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Moderated
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,670



« Reply #164 on: March 25, 2014, 04:27:23 PM »

What Torah? Didn't you say that Moses did not write the Torah? According to the Documentary Hypothesis the Torah was compiled and finished mostly around the 6th century BCE. The Caananite religion preceded that, and all pagan religions did. Plus there were many "scrolls of the laws". On the time of King Josiah the High Priest Hilkiah "discovered" a scroll of the law they knew nothing about and that they were transgressing at that moment. As I said no proof of an Israeli migration according to archaeology. So what authority does the Torah hold then? Where does this authority come from? From her editors, redactors, etc? Smiley "How do you say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly he made it falsely; the pen of the scribes made it a lie."(Jer 8:Cool

Have you really not encountered engagement with Biblical criticism outside of fundamentalist responses?

See Vatican II's Dei Verbum, James Kugel's How to Read the Bible, etc. for an idea of how the Church, as well as ancient Rabbis and Fathers perceived, read, and interpreted these texts. Their use as an ecclesiastical document does not hinge on their absolute uniform historicity, nor their authors being those as traditionally understood, nor the accuracy of texts as historical narratives (e.g. the etiological accounts of Cain, the Israeli-Canaanite "division," etc.), and therefore not even authorial intent.

From Dei Verbum:

Quote
12. However, since God speaks in Sacred Scripture through men in human fashion, (6) the interpreter of Sacred Scripture, in order to see clearly what God wanted to communicate to us, should carefully investigate what meaning the sacred writers really intended, and what God wanted to manifest by means of their words.

Emphasis mine.

And if it did not happen it is a lie. Why do you believe a lie? Why didn't they say that this story is a parable or so and so on.

Technically not a lie. It would be a lie if the authors had purposely withhold the truth. Last time I checked, biblical scholars were in disagreement about whether or not the authors had intented the whole text to be taken literally.

A half-truth is a lie.

LOL @ your avatar!

Well played! Seriously, I was confused then was dying laughing.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Ansgar
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: More than an inquirer, less than a catechumen
Jurisdiction: Exarchate of orthodox churches of russian tradition in western Europe
Posts: 3,008


Keep your mind in hell and do not despair


« Reply #165 on: March 25, 2014, 04:30:18 PM »

What Torah? Didn't you say that Moses did not write the Torah? According to the Documentary Hypothesis the Torah was compiled and finished mostly around the 6th century BCE. The Caananite religion preceded that, and all pagan religions did. Plus there were many "scrolls of the laws". On the time of King Josiah the High Priest Hilkiah "discovered" a scroll of the law they knew nothing about and that they were transgressing at that moment. As I said no proof of an Israeli migration according to archaeology. So what authority does the Torah hold then? Where does this authority come from? From her editors, redactors, etc? Smiley "How do you say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly he made it falsely; the pen of the scribes made it a lie."(Jer 8:Cool

Have you really not encountered engagement with Biblical criticism outside of fundamentalist responses?

See Vatican II's Dei Verbum, James Kugel's How to Read the Bible, etc. for an idea of how the Church, as well as ancient Rabbis and Fathers perceived, read, and interpreted these texts. Their use as an ecclesiastical document does not hinge on their absolute uniform historicity, nor their authors being those as traditionally understood, nor the accuracy of texts as historical narratives (e.g. the etiological accounts of Cain, the Israeli-Canaanite "division," etc.), and therefore not even authorial intent.

From Dei Verbum:

Quote
12. However, since God speaks in Sacred Scripture through men in human fashion, (6) the interpreter of Sacred Scripture, in order to see clearly what God wanted to communicate to us, should carefully investigate what meaning the sacred writers really intended, and what God wanted to manifest by means of their words.

Emphasis mine.

And if it did not happen it is a lie. Why do you believe a lie? Why didn't they say that this story is a parable or so and so on.

Technically not a lie. It would be a lie if the authors had purposely withhold the truth. Last time I checked, biblical scholars were in disagreement about whether or not the authors had intented the whole text to be taken literally.

A half-truth is a lie.

The definition of a lie:

Quote
lie 2  (lī)
n.
1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
2. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.
v. lied, ly·ing (lī′ĭng), lies
v.intr.
1. To present false information with the intention of deceiving.
2. To convey a false image or impression: Appearances often lie.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Lie


Logged

Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite
ZealousZeal
Gainsaying Helpmeet
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: ✔
Posts: 2,764


look into my lovable alpaca eyes


« Reply #166 on: March 25, 2014, 07:49:09 PM »

A Judaizing white supremacist... interesting. I feel like this is the fabled pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Only not so much gold as BS.
Logged

"For this God is our God forever and ever; He will be our guide, even to the end." Psalm 48:14
orthonorm
Moderated
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,670



« Reply #167 on: March 25, 2014, 07:56:12 PM »

A Judaizing white supremacist... interesting. I feel like this is the fabled pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Only not so much gold as BS.

Don't hang around many white supremacists I take it then?
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
ZealousZeal
Gainsaying Helpmeet
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: ✔
Posts: 2,764


look into my lovable alpaca eyes


« Reply #168 on: March 25, 2014, 07:58:46 PM »

A Judaizing white supremacist... interesting. I feel like this is the fabled pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Only not so much gold as BS.

Don't hang around many white supremacists I take it then?

Can't say that I do. Is the Judaizing typical?
Logged

"For this God is our God forever and ever; He will be our guide, even to the end." Psalm 48:14
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Stratopedarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 18,733


"And you shall call his name Jesus..."


WWW
« Reply #169 on: March 25, 2014, 09:54:58 PM »

A Judaizing white supremacist... interesting. I feel like this is the fabled pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Only not so much gold as BS.

 Smiley
Logged

The Mor has spoken. Let his word endure unto the ages of ages.

Please, James, tell us more about women!
LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Warned
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,636


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #170 on: March 25, 2014, 10:17:10 PM »

A Judaizing white supremacist... interesting. I feel like this is the fabled pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Only not so much gold as BS.

 Smiley

 Smiley Smiley Smiley
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Stratopedarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 18,733


"And you shall call his name Jesus..."


WWW
« Reply #171 on: March 25, 2014, 10:18:26 PM »

A Judaizing white supremacist... interesting. I feel like this is the fabled pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Only not so much gold as BS.

 Smiley

 Smiley Smiley Smiley

Connect four!
Logged

The Mor has spoken. Let his word endure unto the ages of ages.

Please, James, tell us more about women!
LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Warned
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,636


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #172 on: March 25, 2014, 10:18:52 PM »

A Judaizing white supremacist... interesting. I feel like this is the fabled pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Only not so much gold as BS.

Don't hang around many white supremacists I take it then?

Who in their right mind would want to? Unless, perhaps, they're a journalist, or conducting research. Even then, it wouldn't be a fun gig.
Logged
LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Warned
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,636


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #173 on: March 25, 2014, 10:19:19 PM »

A Judaizing white supremacist... interesting. I feel like this is the fabled pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Only not so much gold as BS.

 Smiley

 Smiley Smiley Smiley

Connect four!

BINGO!  laugh
Logged
orthonorm
Moderated
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,670



« Reply #174 on: March 25, 2014, 11:00:46 PM »

A Judaizing white supremacist... interesting. I feel like this is the fabled pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Only not so much gold as BS.

Don't hang around many white supremacists I take it then?

Who in their right mind would want to? Unless, perhaps, they're a journalist, or conducting research. Even then, it wouldn't be a fun gig.

Guess certain neighbors are beyond loving. Most I've known are more well humored than you seem on this board, and since that is a cardinal virtue for me, I'll go with it.

For most white supremacists, their niche shared belief is thankfully about serious to them and affects their lives as much as Christianity does for most around here.

And no, you aren't loving people who dismiss getting to know first.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
LBK
No Reporting Allowed
Warned
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,636


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #175 on: March 25, 2014, 11:08:45 PM »

Quote
Most I've known are more well humored than you seem on this board, and since that is a cardinal virtue for me,

An example of your good humor and sense of humanity:

So I gave my cat away last night.

Why?

The landlady's allergic and didn't like it being around.

Good for you for getting rid of it. You are a man anyhow. It is ridiculous to keep pets. It is like one of the most decadent and gross things in our society. People have warped relations with animals that wouldn't exist without the market for them or would do fine without owners and yet these same animals lovers treat their fellow man with contempt.

Bestiality is everywhere.

And yes, before you pet people respond, it includes you. The solitary oc.netter clinging to their fetishized partner has to account for at least 63% of the posters here.

Working animals are different. And no your dog isn't a deterrent to anyone.

If you can't break the neck of your pet to alleviate the suffering of your neighbor, you need to start thinking about what sorta ethical universe you live in.


Obviously the Psalmist's exhortation of Let everything that has breath praise the Lord is so much sentimental fluff in your eyes. But then, so much about Orthodoxy is, to you.
Logged
NicholasMyra
Avowed denominationalist
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 6,073


Nepsis or Sepsis™


« Reply #176 on: March 26, 2014, 01:17:27 AM »

Quote from: orthonorm
Good for you for getting rid of it. You are a man anyhow. It is ridiculous to keep pets. It is like one of the most decadent and gross things in our society. People have warped relations with animals that wouldn't exist without the market for them or would do fine without owners and yet these same animals lovers treat their fellow man with contempt.
Obviously the Psalmist's exhortation of Let everything that has breath praise the Lord is so much sentimental fluff in your eyes.

Animals owned by humans = have breath.
Animals not owned by humans = don't have breath.

Sounds about right. Wink
« Last Edit: March 26, 2014, 01:18:54 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,966


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #177 on: March 26, 2014, 10:46:49 AM »

Quote from: orthonorm
Good for you for getting rid of it. You are a man anyhow. It is ridiculous to keep pets. It is like one of the most decadent and gross things in our society. People have warped relations with animals that wouldn't exist without the market for them or would do fine without owners and yet these same animals lovers treat their fellow man with contempt.
Obviously the Psalmist's exhortation of Let everything that has breath praise the Lord is so much sentimental fluff in your eyes.

Animals owned by humans = have breath.
Animals not owned by humans = don't have breath.

Sounds about right. Wink

Huh?
Logged
NicholasMyra
Avowed denominationalist
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 6,073


Nepsis or Sepsis™


« Reply #178 on: March 26, 2014, 12:22:49 PM »

Quote from: orthonorm
Good for you for getting rid of it. You are a man anyhow. It is ridiculous to keep pets. It is like one of the most decadent and gross things in our society. People have warped relations with animals that wouldn't exist without the market for them or would do fine without owners and yet these same animals lovers treat their fellow man with contempt.
Obviously the Psalmist's exhortation of Let everything that has breath praise the Lord is so much sentimental fluff in your eyes.

Animals owned by humans = have breath.
Animals not owned by humans = don't have breath.

Sounds about right. Wink

Huh?
Being against pets is being against animals and their inherent worth.
Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.
hecma925
Non-clairvoyant
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 7,296


Pray for me, a sinner.


WWW
« Reply #179 on: March 27, 2014, 07:43:58 AM »

A Judaizing white supremacist... interesting. I feel like this is the fabled pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Only not so much gold as BS.

Don't hang around many white supremacists I take it then?

Who in their right mind would want to? Unless, perhaps, they're a journalist, or conducting research. Even then, it wouldn't be a fun gig.

Guess certain neighbors are beyond loving. Most I've known are more well humored than you seem on this board, and since that is a cardinal virtue for me, I'll go with it.

For most white supremacists, their niche shared belief is thankfully about serious to them and affects their lives as much as Christianity does for most around here.

And no, you aren't loving people who dismiss getting to know first.

Kentucky white supremacists are fun and good-natured, I take it.
Logged

Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.275 seconds with 72 queries.