Author Topic: Georgian Old Believers?  (Read 1167 times)

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Offline Regnare

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Georgian Old Believers?
« on: March 23, 2014, 09:16:17 PM »
I've been doing some reading about the Russian Old Rite recently, and while reading about the various priested hierarchies, I discovered that the Russian Old Orthodox Church (the Novobyzkov hierarchy) spawned a breakoff with the formidable name of the Slavo-Georgian Iberian Old Orthodox Church (bold for extra impressiveness). Apparently this small group uses the Georgian service books used prior to the 1800s, when invading Russians presumably brought the Nikonian reforms along with Russianising practices. Does anyone know anything about this Old Rite Georgian tradition? To what extent does it differ from the Russian one (since Georgia follows the Greek liturgical tradition rather than the Slavic)? Where can I find out more about this?
"Whosoever you are who introduce new doctrines, I beseech you to spare the ears of Romans! Spare that faith which was commended by the voice of an Apostle. Why should you attempt to teach us, at the end of hundreds of years, that which we never heard before? Why bring forward what Peter and Paul did not will to make known? Until this day, the world was Christian without your doctrine. Thus, I hold as an old man onto that faith wherein I was regenerated as a boy." St. Jerome

Offline seaale

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Re: Georgian Old Believers?
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2014, 01:59:59 AM »
This would be very interesting to learn more about! Hopefully someone can provide some information.
Господи, Иисусе Христе, Сыне Божий, помилуй мя, грешного.

Offline Ekdikos

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Re: Georgian Old Believers?
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2014, 11:42:50 AM »
Well, I am affraid its not that misterious... in 1988 two bishops of Russian Old Orthodox Church, went in schism, because this Church was increasingy improving relations with Russian Orthodox Church. They found most of support among Old Believers in Georgia (who are ethnic Russians). Two leaders of schism repented and returned to ROOC, but they consecrated bishops in meantime, so schism survived. Slavic-Georgian Old Orthodox Church developed missionary activity among Georgians. Thats why they menzion pre XVIII century Georgian books as valid. Altough from 18th century and latter, Georgian practice is influenced by post-Nikonian Russian, pre 18th century Georgian was not identical to old recension of Byzantine rite, whic Old Believers dogmatized.
 www.hierarchy.religare.ru/h-orthod-staroob-iversk.html
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 11:45:25 AM by Ekdikos »

Offline Lenexa

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Re: Georgian Old Believers?
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2016, 05:17:38 PM »
Not sure if it is worth commenting on still but just came across this.
A few years ago I started a discussion specifically on the Priested Old Believers http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,25531.0.html
 And, on my own, made a couple Old Believer friends both under the Belokrinitsa Hierarchy, one returned to St.Petersburg and the other returned to Romania and is now a nun.
I have learned a lot since then but still have very little knowledge of the Russian Language and know only the Church Slavonic I memorized from prayer so have been VERY limited in being able to learn more. The issue of pre-18th Century Georgian Liturgical books has to do with something very simple: The invading Russians forced the Russian liturgical language, Church Slavonic, on the Georgians in the 18th Century! Why wouldn't you simply return to the old books once able to as a Georgian Orthodox Christian?! and why didn't they!!!? that is what you should ask.
Believe me I was not at all happy when I came to this conclusion having been a "Nikonian" Old Calendarist, but I find it confirmed again and again: When it comes to the liturgical/ritual practices the Old Believers are the ones who have stayed faithful to Tradition and the Canons!
But as to the dispute between the Belokrinitskaya Hierarchy and the Novozybkovskaya Hierarchy and their respective Churches I am hesitant to judge.

Offline Lenexa

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Re: Georgian Old Believers?
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2016, 05:57:31 PM »
Anyone truly interested Here you go!
http://www.oldorthodox.ge/

Offline wgw

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Re: Georgian Old Believers?
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2016, 10:04:57 PM »
Interesting.  There are also Old Believers in the US who are Russian who are apparently in communion, or were in communion, with the Georgian Catholicos, obviously a different group altgether.

Now hasn't the Church of Georgia been collectively working to de-Russify its liturgy?  It seems to me de-Nikonization would be an obvious part of that.

What I have yet, in discussions with Old Believers on OCNet, who as a group Inlike and am sympathetic towards (although I personally prefer the revised liturgy, having seen both), is wherenthe actual corruption occurred that was imported by Patriarch Nikon; for example, if it is their contention that the Greek liturgy became corrupt at some point, and if so, when.   It would be really interesting to know what the more advanced Old Believer theologians say about that, if for example, they have a preferred theory on how, where, when and why the liturgy outside of Russia and apparently Georgia became corrupt (for example, was it due to the Fourth Crusade, or the Council of Foorence, or Turkokratia)?

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Georgian Old Believers?
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2016, 07:30:15 AM »
The supposed Old Believers in the USA in communion with Georgia seem to be of dubious authenticity, though I'd be happy to be wrong. The Old Believers seem to point to the Fourth Criusade, councils of Lyons and Florence, and the Turkish conquest as all stages in the degeneration of the Greek rite. The Old Believer mentality was a product of the same milieu that produced the Third Rome theory, which has had so many destructive results. As for Georgians de-Nikonizing, what evidence do you see of that? The only shift I am aware of is back to Georgian chant. De-Nikonizing would seem to be an arbitrary point since the Georgian liturgy was gradually erased by Athonite imports over the course of centuries.