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Author Topic: The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin  (Read 2459 times) Average Rating: 0
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Linus7
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« on: January 30, 2003, 10:24:59 PM »

This is NOT a request for a debate but rather a request for information.

Can someone please supply some references in the Church Fathers for the Assumption?

I understand Melito of Sardis wrote about it.

Can you supply a reference and perhaps a quotation?

Thanks in advance.
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« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2003, 06:18:02 AM »

I can't think of any online off the top of my head, but you may appreciate the following. Please note that this is from my not terribly reliable memory. I don't have any text in front of me to quote from.

There is a church being constructed here in Thessaloniki (among many Smiley) dedicated to Saint Fotios. Currently services are being held in the basement while the remainder of the building is under construction. In order to bless the construction and also to raise funds, a number of relics have been brought to the church over the months so that people have an opportunity to venerate these blessed objects. One of the relics we were able to venerate is a sash or belt woven of camel hair and gold thread by Panagia herself, known as the "+ñ+»+++¦++ +û-Ä++++" or "+û-Ä++++ -ä++-é +á+¦+++¦+¦+»+¦-é" which is one of the treasures guarded at the Monastery Vatopedi on Mt. Athos.

http://www.mathra.gr/kedak/agionoros/imbatopediou/keimilia.html
On the day on which Panagia died, the Apostles were in various locations around the world. It was God's will, however, that they all be present on this occasion and so it was that they were all brought "through the air" to be at her side. All, that is, besides Thomas, who was brought by God three days later. While he was still in the air, he met Panagia as her body was being "assumed" and she passed on to him the sash that she was wearing around her waist as a testimony to the other Apostles. When Thomas arrived with the others he exclaimed his grief at not being honoured to be present with the others at her death and so asked that they open the tomb so that he could venerate her remains. The others agreed to this, but upon opening the tomb they found it to be empty. He then showed them the sash/belt which had been given to him by Panagia which they all knew to have been around her waist when she was placed in the tomb.

Many miracles have occured with the sash/belt, particulary women who were unable to have children, falling pregnant soon after having the sash/belt placed around their waist.

Something else to note, while we have relics of many of the Saints, including John the Baptist, Saint Luke etc. we have no relics of Panagia.

If you want more background on the +û-Ä++++ -ä++-é +á+¦+++¦+¦+»+¦-é, I would recommend getting in touch with the Monastery Vatopedi.

John.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2003, 06:19:08 AM by prodromos » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2003, 06:18:39 AM »

Linus

Here may be the site you are looking for. It includes texts from Melito of Sardis:

15. And the apostles, carrying Mary, came to the place of the Valley of Jehoshaphat which the Lord had showed them; and they laid her in a new tomb, and closed the sepulchre. And they themselves sat down at the door of the tomb, as the Lord had commanded them; and, behold, suddenly the Lord Jesus Christ came with a great multitude of angels, with a halo of great brightness gleaming, and said to the apostles: Peace be with you! And they answered and said: Let Thy mercy, O Lord, be upon us, as we have hoped in Thee. Then the Saviour spoke to them, saying: Before I ascended to my Father I promised to you, saying that you who have followed me in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit upon the throne of His majesty, will sit, you also, upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Her, therefore, did I choose out of the tribes of Israel by the command of my Father, that I should dwell in her. What, therefore, do you wish that I should do to her? Then Peter and the other apostles said: Lord, Thou didst choose beforehand this Thine handmaid to become a spotless chamber for Thyself, and us Thy servants to minister unto Thee. Before the ages Thou didst foreknow all things along with the Father, with whom to Thee and the Holy Spirit there is one Godhead, equal and infinite power. If, therefore, it were possible to be done in the presence of the power of Thy grace, it had seemed to us Thy servants to be right that, just as Thou, having vanquished death, reignest in glory, so, raising up again the body of Thy mother, Thou shouldst take her with Thee in joy into heaven.



http://www.uoregon.edu/~sshoemak/texts/dormindex.htm

Early Traditions of the Virgin Mary's Dormition

John the Theologian, The Dormition of the Holy Theotokos
Melito of Sardis, The Passing of Blessed Mary
Joseph of Arimathea, The Passing of the Blessed Virgin Mary
Cyril of Jerusalem, Homily on the Dormition
Evodius of Rome, Homily on the Dormition
Theodosius of Alexandria, Homily on the Dormition
John of Damascus, Homilies on the Dormition of the Virgin
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« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2003, 07:12:22 AM »

Loukas posted this in the "Adam and Eve" thread. I thought it should go here.

Nik,

For anyone who doesn't know about it, St John Maximovitch's book on Veneration of the Virgin Mary has been put online by a ROCA parish. I was pleasantly surprised when I found it by accident.

http://www.stmaryofegypt.org/library/st_john_maximovich/on_veneration_of_the_theotokos.htm
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« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2003, 12:13:32 PM »

Most interesting.

OK, at least for argument’s sake: isn’t it a little hypocritical that someone who pooh-poohs the Immaculate Conception (yes, I realize it is outside the framework of Byzantine theology) turns round and demands one believe stories about Mary living in the Holy of Holies and the apostles being whisked to her Assumption as though they were dogma? The story about them being carried to her tomb on clouds could have happened, but it never was dogmatized and is belief in this part of the story necessary to salvation?

The author also seems to sink to the level of a Jack Chick tract making wild accusations about what Catholicism teaches (‘they say she is equal to God!’) when it really doesn’t teach those things.

Also, even without sin in her, Mary still had choice, just like Adam and Eve pre-fall or like Jesus in the desert.

Even saints aren’t intellectually infallible.

Melito of Sardis’ writing is beautiful and orthodox.
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« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2003, 02:08:32 PM »

Most interesting.

OK, at least for argument’s sake: isn’t it a little hypocritical that someone who pooh-poohs the Immaculate Conception (yes, I realize it is outside the framework of Byzantine theology) turns round and demands one believe stories about Mary living in the Holy of Holies and the apostles being whisked to her Assumption as though they were dogma? The story about them being carried to her tomb on clouds could have happened, but it never was dogmatized and is belief in this part of the story necessary to salvation?

The author also seems to sink to the level of a Jack Chick tract making wild accusations about what Catholicism teaches (‘they say she is equal to God!’) when it really doesn’t teach those things.

Also, even without sin in her, Mary still had choice, just like Adam and Eve pre-fall or like Jesus in the desert.

Even saints aren’t intellectually infallible.

Melito of Sardis’ writing is beautiful and orthodox.

Serge, you should read "On the Veneration of the Theotokos" by St. John Maximovitch as he deals with these things you criticize.  The link is in Prodomos's post.
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« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2003, 02:14:48 PM »

sinjin,

I wrote my posting referring to that book after having looked it over. Thank you.
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« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2003, 03:00:08 PM »

Dear Prodromos,

The story I have heard in regard to this is only slightly different from what you have described.  The only differences are that Saint Thomas doesn't meet the Virgin in the sky as he is being "whisked" away to Jerusalem, but rather he gets there, refuses to believe that Mary has died, demands that the tomb be opened so he can see her body, and when they open it, they find only flowers where her body had lain.  Subsequent to this, the Virgin appears to Saint Thomas, chastises him for his lack of faith, and gives him her belt as a sign of the Assumption.  

I have seen a portion of this belt, because it is enshrined in a church in India I visited on a previous trip.  After all, she did give it to Thomas.  Smiley
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« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2003, 05:01:11 PM »

My recollection tells me she gave a bracelet, and that that bracelet lies within my humble country.  Hmmmm.....

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« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2003, 03:33:10 AM »

Dear Prodromos,

The story I have heard in regard to this is only slightly different from what you have described.  The only differences are that Saint Thomas doesn't meet the Virgin in the sky as he is being "whisked" away to Jerusalem, but rather he gets there, refuses to believe that Mary has died, demands that the tomb be opened so he can see her body, and when they open it, they find only flowers where her body had lain.  Subsequent to this, the Virgin appears to Saint Thomas, chastises him for his lack of faith, and gives him her belt as a sign of the Assumption.
I'll have to go with your version then Ephrem as I am a bit fuzzy on the details. I heard this spoken in Greek which I am far from proficient in, so it is most probable that I misunderstood. I do find it strange that Panagia would chastise Thomas for lack of faith though as this wasn't a faith issue. I vaguely remember this as blessing Thomas with an experience denied to the other Apostles, sort of a flipside to when Thomas was absent the first time Jesus appeared amongst the disciples after his resurrection. I'll have to see if I can find someone who can clear this up for me.

In Christ
John
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Tags: Dormition of the Theotokos Theotokos Dormition 
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