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Author Topic: Use of Vulgate in WR  (Read 328 times) Average Rating: 0
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Caelestinus
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« on: March 19, 2014, 10:43:36 AM »

1. Is the use of the Vulgate (and derived translations or other translations from the Masoretic Old Testament) considered as problematic or are variant texts legimitate expressions of the word of God in Orthodoxy?

2. Are vernacular readings from the Old Testament taken from Septuagint translations?

3. Should instead of the Vulgate the Old Latin translations of the Septuagint be taken in liturgical use? (though the critical Edition has not been finished yet)

4. What do you personally think about Jerome's concept of veritas hebraica?
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xOrthodox4Christx
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« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2014, 10:51:51 AM »

1. Is the use of the Vulgate (and derived translations or other translations from the Masoretic Old Testament) considered as problematic or are variant texts legimitate expressions of the word of God in Orthodoxy?

Origen, St. Augustine and St. Jerome thought so. That's where Original Sin came from.

Quote
4. What do you personally think about Jerome's concept of veritas hebraica?

It's dead wrong. It influenced the Protestant Reformation.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 10:52:17 AM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

"Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth.... While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element, I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free." (Eugene Debs)
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« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2014, 12:07:26 PM »

^Nope. IIRC St. Augustine criticized St. Jerome for using Hebrew instead of Greek.

Original Sin and Protestantism on the other hand has nothing to do with the topic. Unless of course we want to take a look of our neighbours' sins instead of our own.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 12:10:12 PM by Alpo » Logged

xOrthodox4Christx
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« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2014, 12:34:51 PM »

^Nope. IIRC St. Augustine criticized St. Jerome for using Hebrew instead of Greek.

That's why I bolded the part I was replying to. Original Sin developed from a textual variant. St. Augustine may have criticized St. Jerome's decision to use it instead of the LXX, yet according to the Cambridge Companion to Augustine, he nevertheless supporting using it in some fashion.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 12:43:14 PM by xOrthodox4Christx » Logged

"Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth.... While there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element, I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free." (Eugene Debs)
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« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2014, 04:14:32 PM »

In ROCOR vulgate and septuagint translations are heavily promoted and are more normative.


There are several priests in the AWRV who would prefer to use the douay rheims for readings at mass.
One of the problems (depending how you see it) within the Antiochian WRV, is that those with the power over liturgy are against the use of the Vulgate for english language liturgy, for latin it is the only option, thus in that manner it is allowed. Even though I think it is a mistaken practice to continue to base english texts entirely on the masoretic and KJV, I understand their reasons. I believe that the reason for it is more practical than dogmatic.

One of the special reasons that the Antiochian WRV has been able to have success is because it relies for the most part on existing Book of Common Prayer inspired liturgical texts used by Anglo-Catholics formerly in the Anglican Church. It takes a number of expert translators and editors to correct these translations and bring them into a pure vulgate or septuagint translation.

I believe that the view can be described as "if it ain't broke don't fix it". The anglican liturgical patrimony has been proven to be for example far more stable , reliable and satisfying than the contemporary english translations by the Roman Catholic Church in the last decades (Although their pre-1966 translations were much better), not to say their 2011 translation is not an improvement, but it did take 40 years to get to it.

I believe that there is a concern that any change in liturgical text is going to bring about unnecessary complications and make people uncomfortable. For those who have attachment as former protestants or anglicans to the text of the Book of Common Prayer, King James Bible or Coverdale Psalter, they may have a feeling that "their old friend" is leaving them. They are used to saying the same words for their whole life, any change in this, even for good reason brings about a certain suspicion that many feel is not worth bringing.

ROCOR has it's own issues. Under the former Fr. Anthony Bondis direction (he is has now left the church) there was heavy promotion of contemporary english and the RSV 2nd Catholic Edition bible for readings at mass and the office mostly within an altered tridentine rite mass. Supposedly over time, last we heard, the traditional 16th c. english is required to become normative in the ROCOR western rite and their contemporary liturgical texts will be replaced with that, bringing it in line closer to the Antiochians translations. Whether this is still going to happen, I do not know, but that was the word from the four man commision around August of 2013.

ROCOR, being smaller, less established, and less interested in being tied to a pure anglican liturgical patrimony is definitely open to corrections in the name of Orthodoxy, as it has less to lose and supposedly less of it's lay people will mind.  In ROCOR the book "A Psalter for Prayer" by David James is the same Coverdale psalter used in the Antiochians WRV except that it has corrections from the vulgate and septuagint. Many parts of it are identical to the original Coverdale, but particular words, and in some rare cases, a few entire psalms are noticeably different. Judging by its reviews on amazon.com it is  a great success as far as balancing familiar text with beauty and accurate translation. http://www.amazon.com/Psalter-Prayer-Adaptation-Translation-Instructional/dp/0884651886/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1395435404&sr=8-1&keywords=a+psalter+for+prayer

Currently most people who use "A Psalter for Prayer", use it only for the byzantine rite. For that reason I have been creating a pointed psalter based on it, to use in the latin rite divine office. It should be appreciated when it is ready.  If the Antiochians would adopt the "Psalter for Prayer" text as their official psalter, it would go a long way toward improving the situation. However it would certainly bother some who already own the original uncorrected coverdale in the form of a breviary or st. dunstans plainsong psalter.
One can understand why this may not happen and could be challenging to introduce, yet it still seems necessary to eventually do so.


My own view is that the liturgical patrimony of the anglican "catholics" from the anglican protestant church is basically good, but that it does EVENTUALLY need correction. That correction ought to be minimal and as little as possible however.

In the average Sunday Mass for the Antiochians, the majority of texts are alright. The problems with translation begin moreso when you are singing all 150 psalms and using the entire King James Bible for reading large passages of scripture (Matins lessons for example.)

Therefore the biggest problem with relying on a flawed translation in my opinion comes not in the Mass, but in the Divine Office.
However, since most people do not focus on the divine office, this is not much of a concern.

I think this sums up the matter succintly.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 04:35:25 PM by Christopher McAvoy » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2014, 06:27:24 PM »

Any thoughtful reader of the Scriptures will consult numerous translations, both from the Masoretic tradition and the Septuagint tradition. There are strengths and weaknesses to both. For example, the Masoretic text has a clearer Messianic prophecy than that of the Septuagint, in Is. 4:2.

I think we must believe that God allowed His Holy Church in the West to embrace the Vulgate for so long, for a reason. It was the Bible of many great, holy, Orthodox saints.

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Caelestinus
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« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2014, 01:03:15 PM »

I think we must believe that God allowed His Holy Church in the West to embrace the Vulgate for so long, for a reason. It was the Bible of many great, holy, Orthodox saints.


And I haven't heared of pre-schism Greek fathers that they complained about the Latins to have a "wrong" Bible. It just wasn't a controversional issue; but may be it becomes..
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« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2014, 12:03:12 AM »

Caelestinus, your questions are important considerations. I appreciate that you have asked them here.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 12:04:27 AM by Christopher McAvoy » Logged

"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
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« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2014, 07:16:04 PM »

Any thoughtful reader of the Scriptures will consult numerous translations, both from the Masoretic tradition and the Septuagint tradition. There are strengths and weaknesses to both. For example, the Masoretic text has a clearer Messianic prophecy than that of the Septuagint, in Is. 4:2.

I think we must believe that God allowed His Holy Church in the West to embrace the Vulgate for so long, for a reason. It was the Bible of many great, holy, Orthodox saints.



Isaiah 4:2

Wycliffe's Bible: 2 In that day the burgeoning of the Lord shall be in great worship and glory; and the fruit of [the] earth shall be high, and full out joy to them that shall be saved of Israel. (On that day the burgeoning of the Lord shall have great beauty and glory; and the fruit of the earth shall grow high, and be the full out joy of those of Israel who shall be saved, or who have survived.)

Douay Rheims 1899 American Adition (proof this isnt the true Latin vulgate like Wycliffe's Bible is): 2 In that day the bud of the Lord shall be in magnificence and glory, and the fruit of the earth shall be high, and a great joy to them that shall have escaped of Israel.

The Voice: 2 Then, oh then, a tiny shoot cultivated and nurtured by the Eternal will emerge new and green, promising beauty and glory. Everything that comes from the earth will offer itself, lovely and magnificent, to those who escaped Israel’s demise.

kIng James:
In that day shall the branch of the Lord be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.
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The above post is intended for discussion purposes and is comprised of my personal opinion.
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