Author Topic: Weekday-Liturgies during Lent..  (Read 653 times)

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Offline Caelestinus

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Weekday-Liturgies during Lent..
« on: March 18, 2014, 08:26:52 PM »
..an integral part of Roman Rite.

Who assents? Who disagrees?

Offline Regnare

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Re: Weekday-Liturgies during Lent..
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2014, 09:45:42 PM »
Well, since the Roman Rite has a Low Mass for weekdays, I don't see why it shouldn't have weekday liturgies during the whole year. Failing that, the Western Orthodox, at least in the AWRV, make use of Cranmer's compressed offices of Matins & Evensong, which are intended to be said every day of the week. So I think that some kind of weekday service should absolutely happen in Roman Rite churches, all the time.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Weekday-Liturgies during Lent..
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2014, 09:47:52 PM »
..an integral part of Roman Rite.

Who assents? Who disagrees?

I agree, they are an integral part of the celebration of Lent in the Roman rite. 

Is that all you're asking?  Or did you have something else in mind?
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Offline Caelestinus

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Re: Weekday-Liturgies during Lent..
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2014, 10:18:02 PM »
..an integral part of Roman Rite.

Who assents? Who disagrees?

I agree, they are an integral part of the celebration of Lent in the Roman rite. 

Is that all you're asking?  Or did you have something else in mind?

Some regard it as a canonical Problem (Trullo) and therefore they (Milan Synod for example) celebrate a missa sicca (an absolute no-go in my opinion).

Offline Regnare

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Re: Weekday-Liturgies during Lent..
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2014, 10:27:06 PM »
So when you talk about weekday liturgies during Lent, you're specifically referring to actual Masses as opposed to Presanctified Liturgies?
And yes, creating a Missa Sicca (Dry Mass: a ceremony which mimics the structure of the Mass but has no actual Eucharist) where one does not exist is ridiculous. The Roman Divine Office is wonderful, and exists for a reason.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Weekday-Liturgies during Lent..
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2014, 10:40:56 PM »
Some regard it as a canonical Problem (Trullo) and therefore they (Milan Synod for example) celebrate a missa sicca (an absolute no-go in my opinion).

I'd be interested to hear how the Western Rite EO communities deal with this issue and reconcile it with Trullo and/or other councils they accept.  

Within the Oriental Orthodox communion, there are two major "schools" of thought on this issue: "African" and "Asian".  For the African Churches, there is no prohibition on the celebration of the Eucharistic Liturgy during the weekdays of Lent: there are some ritual and textual variations which mark the season, but what is celebrated is the full Liturgy.  The Asian Churches do not allow the Eucharist to be celebrated on Lenten weekdays, so in that we are similar to Byzantine practice (although the tradition of Presanctified Liturgies dropped out many centuries ago).  

But even here, there can be some variation, at least in theory.  One of my teachers, for example, taught me that it would be possible to celebrate the Eucharist as long as it was done in the late afternoon/evening, after a full day of complete fasting, and with the hymns chanted in the Lenten melodies (as, for example, the Copts do): his contention was that it was only because this is a difficult thing for the average parish to accomplish that our Lenten weekdays are aliturgical.  I'm not sure I agree with him totally with regard to our particular tradition, and no other teacher was willing to agree with him, but it is certainly the case that the prohibition is not as strict overall as it might be in EO.  

So I don't see any significant problem if Roman/Western tradition allows for a full Mass on Lenten weekdays.  It's just one of a number of things which Roman tradition has in common with Africa.  
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline Caelestinus

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Re: Weekday-Liturgies during Lent..
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2014, 11:01:55 PM »
So when you talk about weekday liturgies during Lent, you're specifically referring to actual Masses as opposed to Presanctified Liturgies?
And yes, creating a Missa Sicca (Dry Mass: a ceremony which mimics the structure of the Mass but has no actual Eucharist) where one does not exist is ridiculous. The Roman Divine Office is wonderful, and exists for a reason.

yes, i refer to eucharistic liturgies (= Masses).

@Mor Efarim: So in Syriac Tradition the sentence "Communion doesn't break fasting" doesn't apply...interesting!

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Weekday-Liturgies during Lent..
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2014, 11:46:16 PM »
@Mor Efarim: So in Syriac Tradition the sentence "Communion doesn't break fasting" doesn't apply...interesting!

What exactly do you mean by that?  Depending on what you mean, the answer is "yes" or "no".  :P
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Offline Caelestinus

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Re: Weekday-Liturgies during Lent..
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2014, 10:29:47 AM »
@Mor Efarim: So in Syriac Tradition the sentence "Communion doesn't break fasting" doesn't apply...interesting!

What exactly do you mean by that?  Depending on what you mean, the answer is "yes" or "no".  :P

I understood you this way: If  you went to communion on a fast-day in the morning, you would break your fasting according to your tradition, right?

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Weekday-Liturgies during Lent..
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2014, 10:49:32 AM »
I understood you this way: If  you went to communion on a fast-day in the morning, you would break your fasting according to your tradition, right?

Well, if one goes to Communion on a fasting day, the fast is broken after Communion: you can eat and drink afterwards (in fact, you must), but the abstinence will continue, however, in most cases.  

So, for instance, on the Wednesday of our three-day fast of the Ninevites, we celebrate a Liturgy after the Ninth Hour instead of after the Sixth Hour, and it follows the Lenten order.  After the Liturgy, we eat, but our food is Lenten because the abstinence is not broken until after the next day's Liturgy.  But let's say 29 June is a Friday this year: we would celebrate the Liturgy for Ss Peter and Paul, and because that feast trumps Friday, all foods are allowed.  Basically, if a major feast falls within a fasting period, we break the fast after Liturgy but keep the abstinence, but if it falls outside of a fasting period but on a fasting day (W or F), the major feast outranks the fasting day and we break both fast and abstinence.

I don't know how the abstinence rules work in the other OO traditions, but I'm pretty sure that all of them agree that, after the Liturgy is celebrated, there is no fasting.        

EDIT: I should add, since I noticed I forgot to address the "morning" part of your comment, that there is some "cheating" involved.  During Great Lent, we are not allowed to eat or drink until after the Ninth Hour.  Normally, the morning office precedes the celebration of the Liturgy, and this is composed of Matins, Third, and Sixth Hours.  If a parish celebrates Liturgy in the morning on a day when the Liturgy is supposed to be celebrated after the Ninth Hour, then the morning office includes the Ninth Hour as well.  So, on a fasting day, you could theoretically end the Liturgy by 9am, but "liturgically" you have already passed 3pm.  It's one of those liturgical fictions that have been widely accepted.  :P 
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 10:55:43 AM by Mor Ephrem »
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Offline Reader KevinAndrew

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Re: Weekday-Liturgies during Lent..
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2014, 10:52:02 PM »
The West has always had daily masses during Lent. In fact part of the Lenten cycle is to follow along daily the Mass Propers as you go from Ash Wednesday to Passiontide. The readings and Propers for the Mass each day carry you through the fasting season and sustain. This is our custom. I understand the Eastern rite's reasons for theirs too.

Offline Caelestinus

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Re: Weekday-Liturgies during Lent..
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2014, 12:32:49 PM »
The West has always had daily masses during Lent. In fact part of the Lenten cycle is to follow along daily the Mass Propers as you go from Ash Wednesday to Passiontide. The readings and Propers for the Mass each day carry you through the fasting season and sustain. This is our custom. I understand the Eastern rite's reasons for theirs too.

That's right (except the "always", but most likely since  ca. 460 AD). And it's integral to the Rite because many Offertories and Communio-antiphons have their singular or original place here; the stational liturgy in the Quadragesima is a sign of unity of the urbs (like the fermentum).

Offline Christopher McAvoy

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Re: Weekday-Liturgies during Lent..
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2014, 03:40:22 PM »
The council of trullo was evil for the way it showed intense irrational prejudice to the west. If ALL - ALL Popes from 700-1050 repudiated the parts of it which were against ancient Roman rite practices, to be TRULY ORTHODOX would mean to continue to repudiate them today, anything else is FAKE heterodoxy pretending to be orthodoxy. Whatever positive effects it had for the byzantine rite have to be balanced with the negative effects it could have had for the latin rite, had enough latins taken in seriously.

"notably Popes Constantine and Hadrian I, seem to show an acceptance that could be summed up as expressed by Pope John VII: that he accepted all those canons which did not contradict the true faith, good morals, and decrees of Rome. " This is the most anyone should expect today of those attempting to follow some semblance of  Roman Rite in the Orthodox Church. People who fully accept all teachings of this council are inevitably led over time into a position which ultimately rejects the entire latin patrimony.

Quote
In addition to recording earlier decisions and attempting to curb pagan practices, many of the new regulations were aimed at settling differences between the Eastern and Western church practices regarding ritual observance and clerical discipline. Being held under Byzantine auspices, with an exclusively Eastern clergy, these regulations overwhelmingly regarded the customs of the Church of Constantinople as the orthodox practice.[1]

Practices in the Church in the West that had got the attention of the Eastern Patriarchates were condemned, such as: the practice of celebrating Masses on weekdays in Lent (rather than having Pre-Sanctified Liturgies); of fasting on Saturdays throughout the year; of omitting the "Alleluia" in Lent; of depicting Christ as a Lamb. Larger disputes were revealed regarding Eastern and Western attitudes toward celibacy for priests and deacons, with the Council affirming the right of married men to become priests and prescribing excommunication for anyone who attempted to separate a clergyman from his wife, or for any cleric who abandoned his wife. The council also endorsed these lists of canonical writings: the Apostolic Canons (~385 CE), the Synod of Laodicea (~363 CE ?), the Third Synod of Carthage (~397 CE), and the 39th Festal Letter of Athanasius (367 CE).

Pope Sergius I, who was of Syrian origin, rejected the council, preferring, he said, "to die rather than consent to erroneous novelties": though a loyal subject of the Empire, he would not be "its captive in matters of religion" and refused to sign the canons.[2] Emperor Justinian II ordered his arrest and abduction to Constantinople by the notoriously violent protospatharios Zacharias.[3] However, the militia of the exarchate of Ravenna frustrated the attempt.[4] Zacharias nearly lost his life in his attempt to arrest Sergius I.[5][6] Meanwhile, in Visigothic Spain, the council was ratified by the Eighteenth Council of Toledo at the urging of the king, Wittiza, who was vilified by later chroniclers for his decision.[7] Fruela I of Asturias reversed the decision of Toledo sometime during his reign (757–768).[7]

The Eastern Orthodox churches hold this council be part of the Fifth and Sixth Ecumenical Councils, adding its canons thereto. In the West, Bede calls it (in De sexta mundi aetate) a "reprobate" synod, and Paul the Deacon an "erratic" one.[8] For the attitude of the Popes, in face of the various attempts to obtain their approval of these canons see Hefele.[9] However, Pope Hadrian I did write favourably of the canons of this council.[10] The Catholic Church has never accepted the council as authoritative or ecumenical.

The openness toward ordination of married men to the priesthood was one of the only potentially reasonable demands that the council made upon the west which might be open for discussion today, under the right circumstances.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 03:51:51 PM by Christopher McAvoy »
"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot