Author Topic: Do you really?  (Read 6068 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Kerdy

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,813
Do you really?
« on: March 15, 2014, 10:53:38 PM »
Fr. Chad Hatfield from SVS stated, "The Orthodox Church is in the business of making converts.  The great Commission, given by our Lord in the closing words of Matthew's Gospel, is not an option."
http://orthodoxparker.blogspot.jp/2011/05/fr-chad-hatfield-on-baptism-and-great.html?m=1
He is referring to Matthew 28:18-20.  Additionally, the greatest commandments from Jesus are found in Matthew 22:36-39.

Do Orthodox really believe these things today?

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2014, 10:55:38 PM »
Fr. Chad Hatfield from SVS stated, "The Orthodox Church is in the business of making converts.  The great Commission, given by our Lord in the closing words of Matthew's Gospel, is not an option."
http://orthodoxparker.blogspot.jp/2011/05/fr-chad-hatfield-on-baptism-and-great.html?m=1
He is referring to Matthew 28:18-20.  Additionally, the greatest commandments from Jesus are found in Matthew 22:36-39.

Do Orthodox really believe these things today?
How do you want us to answer this question?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Kerdy

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,813
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2014, 12:39:53 AM »
Apparently, after 30+ members viewing this the answer seems to be a no.   :'(

I suppose this answers any follow on questions I may have had. 

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,322
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic Church
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2014, 12:47:24 AM »
Apparently, after 30+ members viewing this the answer seems to be a no.   :'(

I suppose this answers any follow on questions I may have had. 

What was the question? Are you asking whether Orthodox proselytize?

Your question is very vague.
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline DeniseDenise

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,603
  • This place holds to nothing....
  • Faith: Does it matter?
  • Jurisdiction: Unverifiable, so irrelevant
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2014, 12:56:39 AM »
I went to the link..

and please do not think I am trying to be argumentative here, but I could hardly tell where things were quotes from Fr. Chad, or the bloggers own words.  So I am a bit puzzled just because there is no context for the quote, and possibly no surrounding text that was actually spoken/written by Fr. Chad.


That said, my own personal opinion is that, I can -agree- with the statement in a particular context.  IF, and I say that as a huge criteria for things...one takes the Great Commission to mean very specifically go to places where they have not yet heard the good news of Jesus....go therefore and make some disciples of all the nations, then it is very hard to go to a nation where they have not yet heard, (and possibly rejected) this good news.

If one takes the Great Commission to mean, keep preaching, even in nations where there are other churches that believe in Jesus, but not Orthodoxy, then sure....we might be failing. But that is converting people from other 'Jesus professing faiths'

for me this hinges into the notion of things regarding how 'Christian' do we consider those that proclaim Jesus but are outside Orthodoxy.


Please note: my background as a Protestant missionary is where I get some of this and it may and very likely does not reflect Orthodox thinking
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 01:00:02 AM by DeniseDenise »
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Kerdy

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,813
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2014, 01:11:41 AM »
Apparently, after 30+ members viewing this the answer seems to be a no.   :'(

I suppose this answers any follow on questions I may have had.  

What was the question? Are you asking whether Orthodox proselytize?

Your question is very vague.
What's vague?  It's a straight forward question.  I only touched on/asked about two things. It requires only a straight forward answer.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 01:13:37 AM by Kerdy »

Offline Kerdy

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,813
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2014, 01:12:34 AM »
Double post
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 01:13:08 AM by Kerdy »

Offline Kerdy

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,813
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2014, 01:24:18 AM »
I went to the link..

and please do not think I am trying to be argumentative here, but I could hardly tell where things were quotes from Fr. Chad, or the bloggers own words.  So I am a bit puzzled just because there is no context for the quote, and possibly no surrounding text that was actually spoken/written by Fr. Chad.


That said, my own personal opinion is that, I can -agree- with the statement in a particular context.  IF, and I say that as a huge criteria for things...one takes the Great Commission to mean very specifically go to places where they have not yet heard the good news of Jesus....go therefore and make some disciples of all the nations, then it is very hard to go to a nation where they have not yet heard, (and possibly rejected) this good news.

If one takes the Great Commission to mean, keep preaching, even in nations where there are other churches that believe in Jesus, but not Orthodoxy, then sure....we might be failing. But that is converting people from other 'Jesus professing faiths'

for me this hinges into the notion of things regarding how 'Christian' do we consider those that proclaim Jesus but are outside Orthodoxy.


Please note: my background as a Protestant missionary is where I get some of this and it may and very likely does not reflect Orthodox thinking

Thank you!

Offline Kerdy

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,813
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2014, 03:32:17 AM »
74 views and only one person has provided an answer and that person "almost a Catechumen".

Well, the apparent response from what I can tell is no, the Orthodox Church, today, does not subscribe to the Great Commission and does not subscribe to the two Greatest Commandments. 

That's too bad. 

Offline NicholasMyra

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,705
    • Hyperdox Herman
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Partially-overlapping
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2014, 03:58:02 AM »
If someone says "yes" to your question, what will your follow-up question be?
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 03:58:49 AM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline Kerdy

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,813
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2014, 04:16:04 AM »
If someone says "yes" to your question, what will your follow-up question be?

You don't need to worry.  The lack of response was the answer.  I'm good here.  Carry on.

Offline Rdunbar123

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 177
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian western rite
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2014, 06:44:57 AM »
I went to the link..

and please do not think I am trying to be argumentative here, but I could hardly tell where things were quotes from Fr. Chad, or the bloggers own words.  So I am a bit puzzled just because there is no context for the quote, and possibly no surrounding text that was actually spoken/written by Fr. Chad.


That said, my own personal opinion is that, I can -agree- with the statement in a particular context.  IF, and I say that as a huge criteria for things...one takes the Great Commission to mean very specifically go to places where they have not yet heard the good news of Jesus....go therefore and make some disciples of all the nations, then it is very hard to go to a nation where they have not yet heard, (and possibly rejected) this good news.

If one takes the Great Commission to mean, keep preaching, even in nations where there are other churches that believe in Jesus, but not Orthodoxy, then sure....we might be failing. But that is converting people from other 'Jesus professing faiths'

for me this hinges into the notion of things regarding how 'Christian' do we consider those that proclaim Jesus but are outside Orthodoxy.


Please note: my background as a Protestant missionary is where I get some of this and it may and very likely does not reflect Orthodox thinking

Thank you!

I agree , let's not forget the part of Of the quote following the comma, baptizing them in the name of the the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. This seems to indicate non-believers ,as we do not rebaptize. Awaiting snarky reply like "almost a catechumen"

Offline Kerdy

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,813
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2014, 06:57:07 AM »
I went to the link..

and please do not think I am trying to be argumentative here, but I could hardly tell where things were quotes from Fr. Chad, or the bloggers own words.  So I am a bit puzzled just because there is no context for the quote, and possibly no surrounding text that was actually spoken/written by Fr. Chad.


That said, my own personal opinion is that, I can -agree- with the statement in a particular context.  IF, and I say that as a huge criteria for things...one takes the Great Commission to mean very specifically go to places where they have not yet heard the good news of Jesus....go therefore and make some disciples of all the nations, then it is very hard to go to a nation where they have not yet heard, (and possibly rejected) this good news.

If one takes the Great Commission to mean, keep preaching, even in nations where there are other churches that believe in Jesus, but not Orthodoxy, then sure....we might be failing. But that is converting people from other 'Jesus professing faiths'

for me this hinges into the notion of things regarding how 'Christian' do we consider those that proclaim Jesus but are outside Orthodoxy.


Please note: my background as a Protestant missionary is where I get some of this and it may and very likely does not reflect Orthodox thinking

Thank you!

I agree , let's not forget the part of Of the quote following the comma, baptizing them in the name of the the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. This seems to indicate non-believers ,as we do not rebaptize. Awaiting snarky reply like "almost a catechumen"
You thought that was snarky?  Take it up with the originator, I quoted.  The point is, the Orthodox posters avoided answering.  That's telling in many ways. 
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 06:57:50 AM by Kerdy »

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,543
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2014, 07:11:35 AM »
I went to the link..

and please do not think I am trying to be argumentative here, but I could hardly tell where things were quotes from Fr. Chad, or the bloggers own words.  So I am a bit puzzled just because there is no context for the quote, and possibly no surrounding text that was actually spoken/written by Fr. Chad.


That said, my own personal opinion is that, I can -agree- with the statement in a particular context.  IF, and I say that as a huge criteria for things...one takes the Great Commission to mean very specifically go to places where they have not yet heard the good news of Jesus....go therefore and make some disciples of all the nations, then it is very hard to go to a nation where they have not yet heard, (and possibly rejected) this good news.

If one takes the Great Commission to mean, keep preaching, even in nations where there are other churches that believe in Jesus, but not Orthodoxy, then sure....we might be failing. But that is converting people from other 'Jesus professing faiths'

for me this hinges into the notion of things regarding how 'Christian' do we consider those that proclaim Jesus but are outside Orthodoxy.


Please note: my background as a Protestant missionary is where I get some of this and it may and very likely does not reflect Orthodox thinking

Thank you!

I agree , let's not forget the part of Of the quote following the comma, baptizing them in the name of the the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. This seems to indicate non-believers ,as we do not rebaptize. Awaiting snarky reply like "almost a catechumen"
You thought that was snarky?  Take it up with the originator, I quoted.  The point is, the Orthodox posters avoided answering.  That's telling in many ways. 

Or perhaps their lack of response might be because they don't wish to participate in a thread you've started. Given your past behavior towards people who disagree with you, such a tactic is quite understandable.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Kerdy

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,813
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2014, 07:39:10 AM »
Revealing a persons hypocrisy and false information is not a disagreement.  And we don't want to start talking about people's behavior (Are you still Orthodox). :police:

But no, that isn't the problem.  They knew where I was gonna take this and avoided to prevent more hypocrisy from being revealed.  But, that is okay.  You see, at least they know and recognize now, which is a huge step forward.  It means they are thinking, which is a good thing.

Like I said, I have my answers.  Now I must go.  Peace! :angel:

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,543
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2014, 07:42:03 AM »
Quote
They knew where I was gonna take this and avoided to prevent more hypocrisy from being revealed.

Only God can see inside the hearts of men, Kerdy. Your presumption is yet again on display.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline DeniseDenise

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,603
  • This place holds to nothing....
  • Faith: Does it matter?
  • Jurisdiction: Unverifiable, so irrelevant
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2014, 07:44:48 AM »
I went to the link..

and please do not think I am trying to be argumentative here, but I could hardly tell where things were quotes from Fr. Chad, or the bloggers own words.  So I am a bit puzzled just because there is no context for the quote, and possibly no surrounding text that was actually spoken/written by Fr. Chad.


That said, my own personal opinion is that, I can -agree- with the statement in a particular context.  IF, and I say that as a huge criteria for things...one takes the Great Commission to mean very specifically go to places where they have not yet heard the good news of Jesus....go therefore and make some disciples of all the nations, then it is very hard to go to a nation where they have not yet heard, (and possibly rejected) this good news.

If one takes the Great Commission to mean, keep preaching, even in nations where there are other churches that believe in Jesus, but not Orthodoxy, then sure....we might be failing. But that is converting people from other 'Jesus professing faiths'

for me this hinges into the notion of things regarding how 'Christian' do we consider those that proclaim Jesus but are outside Orthodoxy.


Please note: my background as a Protestant missionary is where I get some of this and it may and very likely does not reflect Orthodox thinking

Thank you!

I agree , let's not forget the part of Of the quote following the comma, baptizing them in the name of the the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. This seems to indicate non-believers ,as we do not rebaptize. Awaiting snarky reply like "almost a catechumen"

Dear person who thinks I was being snarky.

Far far from it.

I said my answer was based on my personal experience. I also said it meshes in with 'how do Orthodox see other Jesus believers'

For you the answer is 'not as Christian' so you would be sharing 'good news' that to you they had not yet heard.

For some of us, sinful and in error or not, we will never cease to believe our parents and friends are Jesus believing Christians. That would mean a conversion, rather than an initial telling of 'good news'

There was zero snark.
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Kerdy

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,813
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2014, 07:45:35 AM »
Quote
They knew where I was gonna take this and avoided to prevent more hypocrisy from being revealed.

Only God can see inside the hearts of men, Kerdy. Your presumption is yet again on display.
I never said I could.  I make no presumption.  Two are observable.  Only one is not.  Your attempts to twist and avoid are again on display. :D  Good day LBK.

Offline Kerdy

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,813
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2014, 07:46:37 AM »
I went to the link..

and please do not think I am trying to be argumentative here, but I could hardly tell where things were quotes from Fr. Chad, or the bloggers own words.  So I am a bit puzzled just because there is no context for the quote, and possibly no surrounding text that was actually spoken/written by Fr. Chad.


That said, my own personal opinion is that, I can -agree- with the statement in a particular context.  IF, and I say that as a huge criteria for things...one takes the Great Commission to mean very specifically go to places where they have not yet heard the good news of Jesus....go therefore and make some disciples of all the nations, then it is very hard to go to a nation where they have not yet heard, (and possibly rejected) this good news.

If one takes the Great Commission to mean, keep preaching, even in nations where there are other churches that believe in Jesus, but not Orthodoxy, then sure....we might be failing. But that is converting people from other 'Jesus professing faiths'

for me this hinges into the notion of things regarding how 'Christian' do we consider those that proclaim Jesus but are outside Orthodoxy.


Please note: my background as a Protestant missionary is where I get some of this and it may and very likely does not reflect Orthodox thinking

Thank you!

I agree , let's not forget the part of Of the quote following the comma, baptizing them in the name of the the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. This seems to indicate non-believers ,as we do not rebaptize. Awaiting snarky reply like "almost a catechumen"

Dear person who thinks I was being snarky.

Far far from it.

I said my answer was based on my personal experience. I also said it meshes in with 'how do Orthodox see other Jesus believers'

For you the answer is 'not as Christian' so you would be sharing 'good news' that to you they had not yet heard.

For some of us, sinful and in error or not, we will never cease to believe our parents and friends are Jesus believing Christians. That would mean a conversion, rather than an initial telling of 'good news'

There was zero snark.

I understood your reply and appreciate the response!

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,543
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2014, 07:51:04 AM »
Quote
They knew where I was gonna take this and avoided to prevent more hypocrisy from being revealed.

Only God can see inside the hearts of men, Kerdy. Your presumption is yet again on display.
I never said I could.  I make no presumption.  Two are observable.  Only one is not.  Your attempts to twist and avoid are again on display. :D  Good day LBK.

On the contrary. You are drawing a conclusion on the propriety and fidelity to the Christian faith of others from their silence to your question. Their silence could have any number of reasons behind it, but you have chosen to pin it on the only one that suits your self-fulfilling prophecy.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Alpo

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,465
  • Faith: Finnish Orthodox
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2014, 07:51:40 AM »
I don't think my church does any missionary work within Finland but we still get numerous converts every year. It seems that we don't need to actually do anything and people will still come to us. I believe most of our bishops are converts too.

Of course we don't need to deal with various ethnic-related issues. Our services are in Finnish, our parishioners are Finns, our clergy are Finns and our church is Finnish. That certainly make some things easier.
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline Hawkeye

  • Διονύσιος ὁ Νέος Άνκορεϊτζίτης
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,005
  • Matthew 27:52-53
  • Faith: Like unto Neronov
  • Jurisdiction: Old Rite, Chapelist ("Double-Crossers")
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2014, 07:52:03 AM »
Quote
They knew where I was gonna take this and avoided to prevent more hypocrisy from being revealed.

Only God can see inside the hearts of men, Kerdy. Your presumption is yet again on display.
I never said I could.  I make no presumption.  Two are observable.  Only one is not.  Your attempts to twist and avoid are again on display. :D  Good day LBK.

I don't know, you claimed that people avoided this thread for fear of where it would go and what hypocrisy it would reveal. That seems pretty presumptuous to me.

Really, Kerdy, this thread says more about you than anyone else.
"Take heed, you who listen to me: Our misfortune is inevitable, we cannot escape it. If God allows scandals, it is that the elect shall be revealed. Let them be burned, let them be purified, let them who have been tried be made manifest among you."   - The Life of the Archpriest Avvakum by Himself

Offline Kerdy

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,813
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2014, 08:04:05 AM »
I don't think my church does any missionary work within Finland but we still get numerous converts every year. It seems that we don't need to actually do anything and people will still come to us. I believe most of our bishops are converts too.

Of course we don't need to deal with various ethnic-related issues. Our services are in Finnish, our parishioners are Finns, our clergy are Finns and our church is Finnish. That certainly make some things easier.

So, please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Great Commission:  It appears to be taking care of itself due to potential influences in other areas of ministry?

Love God first:  possibly the influence to the conversions without having to go out evangelizing.

Love your neighbor:  also a possible influence and the benefit of little differences between people making it easier to connect and be courteous?

Is that right?

Would I be accurate to say your answer to the three are as follows:

1-No need
2-Yes
3-Yes, our specific circumstance makes it easy.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 08:10:23 AM by Kerdy »

Offline Kerdy

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,813
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2014, 08:06:20 AM »
Quote
They knew where I was gonna take this and avoided to prevent more hypocrisy from being revealed.

Only God can see inside the hearts of men, Kerdy. Your presumption is yet again on display.
I never said I could.  I make no presumption.  Two are observable.  Only one is not.  Your attempts to twist and avoid are again on display. :D  Good day LBK.

I don't know, you claimed that people avoided this thread for fear of where it would go and what hypocrisy it would reveal. That seems pretty presumptuous to me.

Really, Kerdy, this thread says more about you than anyone else.

It's called evidence.  Also, please observe how she ignored everything else I posted and also declined to answer.  She is good at not answering questions and then turning around and expecting hers to be answered.  A lot of people have that affliction.  And she is discussing one thing while I discuss the topic of the thread.  Another common distraction.

Anyway, I noticed you didn't answer either.  
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 08:08:31 AM by Kerdy »

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,543
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2014, 08:09:54 AM »
Quote
They knew where I was gonna take this and avoided to prevent more hypocrisy from being revealed.

Only God can see inside the hearts of men, Kerdy. Your presumption is yet again on display.
I never said I could.  I make no presumption.  Two are observable.  Only one is not.  Your attempts to twist and avoid are again on display. :D  Good day LBK.

I don't know, you claimed that people avoided this thread for fear of where it would go and what hypocrisy it would reveal. That seems pretty presumptuous to me.

Really, Kerdy, this thread says more about you than anyone else.

It's called evidence.  Also, please observe how she ignored everything else I posted and also declined to answer.  She is good at not answering questions and then turning around and expecting here to be answered.  A lot of people have that affliction.

Anyway, I noticed you didn't answer either.  

I have several reasons for not answering the question in your OP, among them being that it was so vaguely worded, it was meaningless. When someone pointed out its vagueness to you, you refused to acknowledge there was a problem. So, what would be the point of my answering it?

« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 08:17:42 AM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Alpo

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,465
  • Faith: Finnish Orthodox
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2014, 08:17:25 AM »
I'd opt for number 3 as we happen to live just between the East and the West. We might be an exotic minority but we are still the second state church and we've pretty much always been here.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 08:18:21 AM by Alpo »
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline Kerdy

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,813
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2014, 08:19:59 AM »
I'd opt for number 3 as we happen to live just between the East and the West. We might be an exotic minority but we are still the second state church and we've pretty much always been here.

Many Thanks, Alpo!  I appreciate the responses!

By the way, did you retire the dancing duo avatar (Fred and his sister)? Or, have I confused you with someone else?
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 08:41:08 AM by Kerdy »

Offline Hawkeye

  • Διονύσιος ὁ Νέος Άνκορεϊτζίτης
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,005
  • Matthew 27:52-53
  • Faith: Like unto Neronov
  • Jurisdiction: Old Rite, Chapelist ("Double-Crossers")
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2014, 08:25:17 AM »
It's called evidence.

Silence is hardly evidence of people knowing "where [you were] gonna take this and [avoiding it] to prevent more hypocrisy from being revealed."

Anyway, I noticed you didn't answer either.  

I am not, strictly speaking, Orthodox.

But if you would have me discuss the topic anyway then, sure, I believe that the Orthodox Church should be in the business of making converts and that the Great Commission should be, in a sense, not optional. Likewise, I believe that the Great Commission is simply an extension of the Lord's two greatest commandments. I, for one, out of love for God (i.e. the first commandment), desire to join the Church of Christ and if I truly "loved my neighbor as myself" (the second commandment) would I not want to bring them as well?

Naturally, however, I haven't done all that well at fulfilling the Commission in any real sense.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 08:35:22 AM by Hawkeye »
"Take heed, you who listen to me: Our misfortune is inevitable, we cannot escape it. If God allows scandals, it is that the elect shall be revealed. Let them be burned, let them be purified, let them who have been tried be made manifest among you."   - The Life of the Archpriest Avvakum by Himself

Offline Kerdy

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,813
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2014, 08:30:51 AM »
It's called evidence.

Silence is hardly evidence of people knowing "where [you were] gonna take this and [avoiding it] to prevent more hypocrisy from being revealed."

Anyway, I noticed you didn't answer either.  

I am not, strictly speaking, Orthodox.

But if you would have discuss the topic anyway then, sure, I believe that the Orthodox Church should be in the business of making converts and that the Great Commission should be, in a sense, not optional. Likewise, I believe that the Great Commission is simply an extension of the Lord's two greatest commandments. I, for one, out of love for God (i.e. the first commandment), desire to join the Church of Christ and if I truly "loved my neighbor as myself" (the second commandment) would I not want to bring them as well?

Naturally, however, I haven't done all that well at fulfilling the Commission in any real sense.

The silence wasn't the only evidence, it was non-answers (whats your follow up question if...) including LBKs contradictory posts as to why there were no posts.  You see, if they just said yes, it would have opened up all sorts of opportunity to show its not the case, at least individually speaking.  Depending on their answer depending on my response, thus Peters question of how I wanted the answer.  I wanted the truth, nothing more.  However, I really like the responses you guys provided. 

Thanks for the answer.  It was a really good one.  I don't mind you're not being an Orthodox, strictly speaking.  Except for Alpo, nonOrthodox are the only real replies.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 08:36:50 AM by Kerdy »

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,543
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2014, 08:32:48 AM »


The silence wasn't the only evidence, it was non-answers (whats your follow up question if...) including LBKs contradictory posts as to why there were no posts.


Where are the contradictions in my posts?
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Hawkeye

  • Διονύσιος ὁ Νέος Άνκορεϊτζίτης
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,005
  • Matthew 27:52-53
  • Faith: Like unto Neronov
  • Jurisdiction: Old Rite, Chapelist ("Double-Crossers")
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2014, 09:33:07 AM »
You see, if they just said yes, it would have opened up all sorts of opportunity to show its not the case, at least individually speaking.  

Of course the Church and its children frequently and consistently fail to fulfill the Great Commission. Hypocrisy is undoubtedly rampant. I suspect most folk know that here. What good then would your revelations produce?

If people here were actively ignoring this thread, I believe it's not because of what you were going to reveal but entirely about where you were going. I have no quarrel with you, Kerdy, but it seems as though a number of folk here do. Unfortunately, the problem here may not be everyone's hypocrisy but rather, it just might be you.

For one, you're not making any friends by painting "them" the way you did in Reply #14.

I wanted the truth, nothing more.  

If nothing else, that's noble enough.

Thanks for the answer.  It was a really good one.  I don't mind you're not being an Orthodox, strictly speaking.  Except for Alpo, nonOrthodox are the only real replies.

Well, I'm glad to have helped.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 09:34:17 AM by Hawkeye »
"Take heed, you who listen to me: Our misfortune is inevitable, we cannot escape it. If God allows scandals, it is that the elect shall be revealed. Let them be burned, let them be purified, let them who have been tried be made manifest among you."   - The Life of the Archpriest Avvakum by Himself

Offline Kerdy

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,813
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2014, 11:07:54 AM »
You see, if they just said yes, it would have opened up all sorts of opportunity to show its not the case, at least individually speaking.  

Of course the Church and its children frequently and consistently fail to fulfill the Great Commission. Hypocrisy is undoubtedly rampant. I suspect most folk know that here. What good then would your revelations produce?

If people here were actively ignoring this thread, I believe it's not because of what you were going to reveal but entirely about where you were going. I have no quarrel with you, Kerdy, but it seems as though a number of folk here do. Unfortunately, the problem here may not be everyone's hypocrisy but rather, it just might be you.

For one, you're not making any friends by painting "them" the way you did in Reply #14.

I wanted the truth, nothing more.  

If nothing else, that's noble enough.

Thanks for the answer.  It was a really good one.  I don't mind you're not being an Orthodox, strictly speaking.  Except for Alpo, nonOrthodox are the only real replies.

Well, I'm glad to have helped.
You are partly correct.  I did the most shameful thing an Orthodox could do...I defended Catholics against false accusations.  I know, I know, what on Earth was I thinking, but you know what, it just didn't seem right or sit well with me having Catholics misrepresented by untrue statements even when those Catholics explained how the statements were untrue.  So, yeah, I'm not a real popular guy around these parts anymore.  Where do I get off telling people to pull the plank out of their eye before pointing to the splinter in someone else's?  Who even says that sort of stuff?  

But, anyway...this thread was beginning to get some traction and I was becoming more and more interested in what people had to say.  I think it would be great to keep the trend going in the same manner by explaining what each persons parish is doing regarding the original topics.  I especially enjoyed the way you connected all three.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 11:32:54 AM by Kerdy »

Offline katherineofdixie

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,719
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2014, 11:49:49 AM »
Just a suggestion but your first paragraph might give a clue as to why people might not want to engage you. I don't know anything about the incident but  the assumptions you appear to operate under would indicate that any discussion  would be fruitless.
"If but ten of us lead a holy life, we shall kindle a fire which shall light up the entire city."

 St. John Chrysostom

Offline Alpo

  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,465
  • Faith: Finnish Orthodox
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2014, 01:36:08 PM »
Quote
By the way, did you retire the dancing duo avatar (Fred and his sister)? Or, have I confused you with someone else?

Probably. Doesn't ring a bell. I don't even know what this dancing duo is. :D
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,322
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic Church
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #34 on: March 16, 2014, 02:41:06 PM »
Revealing a persons hypocrisy and false information is not a disagreement.  And we don't want to start talking about people's behavior (Are you still Orthodox). :police:

But no, that isn't the problem.  They knew where I was gonna take this and avoided to prevent more hypocrisy from being revealed.  But, that is okay.  You see, at least they know and recognize now, which is a huge step forward.  It means they are thinking, which is a good thing.

Like I said, I have my answers.  Now I must go.  Peace! :angel:

So, telling you that your question was vague is somehow hypocritical. Makes sense.
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline KBN1

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 888
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #35 on: March 16, 2014, 03:03:43 PM »
If someone says "yes" to your question, what will your follow-up question be?

You don't need to worry.  The lack of response was the answer.  I'm good here.  Carry on.

To be perfectly frank, it is this kind of tone that is often exhibited that has me not at all interested in engaging your post.  The original post seemed loaded and it is plausible that other people felt the same way.  Either way, I feel that it is not terribly profitable to engage, but if I don't I suppose I automatically count as someone who hates evangelism. 

Offline scamandrius

  • A man of many, many turns
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9,262
  • Faith: Greek Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: DOWAMA of AANA
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #36 on: March 16, 2014, 03:10:32 PM »
I went to the link..

and please do not think I am trying to be argumentative here, but I could hardly tell where things were quotes from Fr. Chad, or the bloggers own words.  So I am a bit puzzled just because there is no context for the quote, and possibly no surrounding text that was actually spoken/written by Fr. Chad.


That said, my own personal opinion is that, I can -agree- with the statement in a particular context.  IF, and I say that as a huge criteria for things...one takes the Great Commission to mean very specifically go to places where they have not yet heard the good news of Jesus....go therefore and make some disciples of all the nations, then it is very hard to go to a nation where they have not yet heard, (and possibly rejected) this good news.

If one takes the Great Commission to mean, keep preaching, even in nations where there are other churches that believe in Jesus, but not Orthodoxy, then sure....we might be failing. But that is converting people from other 'Jesus professing faiths'

for me this hinges into the notion of things regarding how 'Christian' do we consider those that proclaim Jesus but are outside Orthodoxy.


Please note: my background as a Protestant missionary is where I get some of this and it may and very likely does not reflect Orthodox thinking

Thank you!

I agree , let's not forget the part of Of the quote following the comma, baptizing them in the name of the the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. This seems to indicate non-believers ,as we do not rebaptize. Awaiting snarky reply like "almost a catechumen"
You thought that was snarky?  Take it up with the originator, I quoted.  The point is, the Orthodox posters avoided answering.  That's telling in many ways. 

Or perhaps their lack of response might be because they don't wish to participate in a thread you've started. Given your past behavior towards people who disagree with you, such a tactic is quite understandable.

+1000.  Kerdy has often asked questions where even answering a question wrongly, in his view, is repaid with insult.
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,980
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #37 on: March 16, 2014, 04:41:53 PM »
I went to the link..

and please do not think I am trying to be argumentative here, but I could hardly tell where things were quotes from Fr. Chad, or the bloggers own words.  So I am a bit puzzled just because there is no context for the quote, and possibly no surrounding text that was actually spoken/written by Fr. Chad.


That said, my own personal opinion is that, I can -agree- with the statement in a particular context.  IF, and I say that as a huge criteria for things...one takes the Great Commission to mean very specifically go to places where they have not yet heard the good news of Jesus....go therefore and make some disciples of all the nations, then it is very hard to go to a nation where they have not yet heard, (and possibly rejected) this good news.

If one takes the Great Commission to mean, keep preaching, even in nations where there are other churches that believe in Jesus, but not Orthodoxy, then sure....we might be failing. But that is converting people from other 'Jesus professing faiths'

for me this hinges into the notion of things regarding how 'Christian' do we consider those that proclaim Jesus but are outside Orthodoxy.


Please note: my background as a Protestant missionary is where I get some of this and it may and very likely does not reflect Orthodox thinking

Thank you!

I agree , let's not forget the part of Of the quote following the comma, baptizing them in the name of the the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. This seems to indicate non-believers ,as we do not rebaptize. Awaiting snarky reply like "almost a catechumen"
You thought that was snarky?  Take it up with the originator, I quoted.  The point is, the Orthodox posters avoided answering.  That's telling in many ways. 

Maybe they have better things to do then get in a useless argument online.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,980
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #38 on: March 16, 2014, 04:42:59 PM »
I went to the link..

and please do not think I am trying to be argumentative here, but I could hardly tell where things were quotes from Fr. Chad, or the bloggers own words.  So I am a bit puzzled just because there is no context for the quote, and possibly no surrounding text that was actually spoken/written by Fr. Chad.


That said, my own personal opinion is that, I can -agree- with the statement in a particular context.  IF, and I say that as a huge criteria for things...one takes the Great Commission to mean very specifically go to places where they have not yet heard the good news of Jesus....go therefore and make some disciples of all the nations, then it is very hard to go to a nation where they have not yet heard, (and possibly rejected) this good news.

If one takes the Great Commission to mean, keep preaching, even in nations where there are other churches that believe in Jesus, but not Orthodoxy, then sure....we might be failing. But that is converting people from other 'Jesus professing faiths'

for me this hinges into the notion of things regarding how 'Christian' do we consider those that proclaim Jesus but are outside Orthodoxy.


Please note: my background as a Protestant missionary is where I get some of this and it may and very likely does not reflect Orthodox thinking

Thank you!

I agree , let's not forget the part of Of the quote following the comma, baptizing them in the name of the the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. This seems to indicate non-believers ,as we do not rebaptize. Awaiting snarky reply like "almost a catechumen"
You thought that was snarky?  Take it up with the originator, I quoted.  The point is, the Orthodox posters avoided answering.  That's telling in many ways. 

Or perhaps their lack of response might be because they don't wish to participate in a thread you've started. Given your past behavior towards people who disagree with you, such a tactic is quite understandable.

+1

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,980
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #39 on: March 16, 2014, 04:44:09 PM »
Revealing a persons hypocrisy and false information is not a disagreement.  And we don't want to start talking about people's behavior (Are you still Orthodox). :police:

But no, that isn't the problem.  They knew where I was gonna take this and avoided to prevent more hypocrisy from being revealed.  But, that is okay.  You see, at least they know and recognize now, which is a huge step forward.  It means they are thinking, which is a good thing.

Like I said, I have my answers.  Now I must go.  Peace! :angel:

Well, I suppose this thread has served the purpose of confirming you in your delusions.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline Kerdy

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,813
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #40 on: March 16, 2014, 05:28:13 PM »
Just a suggestion but your first paragraph might give a clue as to why people might not want to engage you. I don't know anything about the incident but  the assumptions you appear to operate under would indicate that any discussion  would be fruitless.
There was something wrong with the first paragraph?  It was a quote from a priest.

Offline Kerdy

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,813
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #41 on: March 16, 2014, 05:29:14 PM »
Quote
By the way, did you retire the dancing duo avatar (Fred and his sister)? Or, have I confused you with someone else?

Probably. Doesn't ring a bell. I don't even know what this dancing duo is. :D
Must be someone else.  I don't spend as much time here now so I have begun to confuse some posters.  Sorry.

Offline Kerdy

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,813
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #42 on: March 16, 2014, 05:33:43 PM »
Revealing a persons hypocrisy and false information is not a disagreement.  And we don't want to start talking about people's behavior (Are you still Orthodox). :police:

But no, that isn't the problem.  They knew where I was gonna take this and avoided to prevent more hypocrisy from being revealed.  But, that is okay.  You see, at least they know and recognize now, which is a huge step forward.  It means they are thinking, which is a good thing.

Like I said, I have my answers.  Now I must go.  Peace! :angel:

So, telling you that your question was vague is somehow hypocritical. Makes sense.
No, this is fallacious reasoning.  I'm still trying to figure out what was vague.  It's a direct question, but I'll ask again.

Do modern Orthodox Christians (you specifically) adhere to the Great Commission and two Greatest Commandments from Jesus?  It's ok if you don't want to answer.  One poster even went so far as to explain the response.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 05:41:37 PM by Kerdy »

Offline Kerdy

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,813
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #43 on: March 16, 2014, 05:36:38 PM »
If someone says "yes" to your question, what will your follow-up question be?

You don't need to worry.  The lack of response was the answer.  I'm good here.  Carry on.

To be perfectly frank, it is this kind of tone that is often exhibited that has me not at all interested in engaging your post.  The original post seemed loaded and it is plausible that other people felt the same way.  Either way, I feel that it is not terribly profitable to engage, but if I don't I suppose I automatically count as someone who hates evangelism. 
How have insulted anyone who did actually answer?  It was only a loaded question depending on how one answered.  So far, the ones who did answer did a good job.  And don't forget there is a second part to the question, not just the Great Commission.  Others have picked up on my post so I know it isn't difficult.

Offline Kerdy

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,813
Re: Do you really?
« Reply #44 on: March 16, 2014, 05:37:38 PM »
I went to the link..

and please do not think I am trying to be argumentative here, but I could hardly tell where things were quotes from Fr. Chad, or the bloggers own words.  So I am a bit puzzled just because there is no context for the quote, and possibly no surrounding text that was actually spoken/written by Fr. Chad.


That said, my own personal opinion is that, I can -agree- with the statement in a particular context.  IF, and I say that as a huge criteria for things...one takes the Great Commission to mean very specifically go to places where they have not yet heard the good news of Jesus....go therefore and make some disciples of all the nations, then it is very hard to go to a nation where they have not yet heard, (and possibly rejected) this good news.

If one takes the Great Commission to mean, keep preaching, even in nations where there are other churches that believe in Jesus, but not Orthodoxy, then sure....we might be failing. But that is converting people from other 'Jesus professing faiths'

for me this hinges into the notion of things regarding how 'Christian' do we consider those that proclaim Jesus but are outside Orthodoxy.


Please note: my background as a Protestant missionary is where I get some of this and it may and very likely does not reflect Orthodox thinking

Thank you!

I agree , let's not forget the part of Of the quote following the comma, baptizing them in the name of the the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. This seems to indicate non-believers ,as we do not rebaptize. Awaiting snarky reply like "almost a catechumen"
You thought that was snarky?  Take it up with the originator, I quoted.  The point is, the Orthodox posters avoided answering.  That's telling in many ways.  

Or perhaps their lack of response might be because they don't wish to participate in a thread you've started. Given your past behavior towards people who disagree with you, such a tactic is quite understandable.

+1000.  Kerdy has often asked questions where even answering a question wrongly, in his view, is repaid with insult.
Who, after answering my questions, did I insult?  No one...you guys on the other hand...
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 05:38:03 PM by Kerdy »