Author Topic: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?  (Read 20555 times)

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Offline Jennifer

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Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« on: March 29, 2005, 04:45:33 PM »
"You are wrong, only Constantinople has a legitimate claim to the Americas (just as, technically speaking, the Autocephaly of Russia exists only by the good will of the Oecumenical Throne), but I'm not going further into this on this thread, it is WAY off topic, if you wish to address this in more detail, please start a new" thread."

greekchristian wrote the above in the thread on Western Orthodoxy. 

Autocephaly is not something I know much about but this sounds awfully "papist" to me.  I know that many Orthodox object to the EP's claims of jurisdiction, believing that he thinks that he's the Orthodox pope.  I don't know enough to reach a conclusion either way. 

But does everyone here with greekchristian's understanding of autocephaly? 


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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2005, 05:03:11 PM »
Even a Catholic such as myself looks at what greekischristian wrote and sees nothing but shades of  ultramontane papacy.  This is exactly the attitude that critics of EP fear so much!
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Offline GiC

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2005, 05:26:01 PM »
Well Schultz, I see you beat me here ;)

The issue at hand is quite simple, it is an issue of canonical order more so than an issue of nationalism and autocephaly. It is an established canonical principle that a synod of equal or greater authority (and only such a synod), can overturn the decisions of a previous synod (the notion of authority becomes a little more complex on doctrinal issues, but is fairly clear cut on administrative ones). Thus, since Russia was granted Autocephaly by the patriarchal synod of Constantinople, the same synod (or a synod of greater authority, i.e. oecumenical) has the right to revoke it. However, the autocephaly of Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Cyprus is established by an oecumenical synod, thus the patriarchal synod of Constantinople (or Old Rome) has no say in their Autocephaly, and hence no authority over these Churches; only another oecumenical synod could change their administrative status. Now with that said, Constantinople has the right to hear appeals from members of these autocephalous Churches or about disputes between these autocephalous Churches about jurisdictional issues (Sardica 3, Chalcedon 28, see also the interpretations of Balsamon on these canons), but the decisions are largely moral in authority, especially without the imperial power to support them (Carthage 126 (125 in the Latin Code)).

Offline Ntinos

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2005, 05:30:34 PM »
Actually, if such a situation really arises, it would be a lack of respect towards the Ecumenical Throne, and they should fear the Anathema more. It is clear since the 3rd and 4th Ecumenical Synods that the Ecumenical Patriarch, be it the bishop of Constantinople or Rome (well, now Constantinople) has the rights of the Bishops of the Barbarian Lands (that being referred to the lands out of the -then- Byzantine Empire). Please correct me if I am wrong, but the authority of an Archdiocese of an Apostle is higher than the authority of an other diocese, and this is why Antioch (St. Peter), Jerusalem (St. James) and Alexandria (St. Mark) still have Patriarchates and are not simple archdioceses under the Ecumenical Patriarchate (St. Andrew).
Otherwise, it would only make sense that the Patriarch of Moscow would be 2nd in the hierarchy, and not 5th, and he should at least be Pope.

Offline Schultz

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2005, 05:34:56 PM »
The use of Chalcedon 28 has been dealt with by both Archbishop PAUL of Finland and Patriarch ALEXY. Please see this article.
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Offline lellimore

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2005, 05:46:09 PM »
Did not the EP refuse to send bishops to North America until the collapse of the Russian Empire in 1917?

Offline Elisha

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2005, 05:48:54 PM »
Besides any of this "Canons" nonesense regarding granting Autocephaly (and I mean that seriously), what about all the Saints with the "equal to the Apostles" titles?  What is the Consensus Patrum on this issue?  For example, take Russia, founded by Prince (Saint) Vladimir, "equal to the Apostles".

Offline Keble

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2005, 06:01:35 PM »
A quick review of discussion of the infamous Canon 28 shows a huge range of opinion. It is even questionable whether it is a proper canon at all, seeing that it was rejected by Rome from the start.

It also seems to me to be questionable whether autocephaly is revokable. If indenpendence can be undone unilaterally by the grantor, it is not genuine independence.

Offline GiC

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2005, 06:11:18 PM »
Ntinos,

The tradition came from Apostolic Sees as well as Imperial Centres of Power (Cyprus was a Apostolic See, but is only an Archbishopric); however, the primary source of authority are the decrees of the oecumenical synods, decrees that are authoritive and must be respected unless overturned by another oecumenical synod.

Schultz,

I have read Alexy's statement before, it is what is to be expected from a minor Patriarchate trying to push its way to the top; however, his argument is undermined by the simple fact that Moscow was initially subject to Constantinople (an undisputed fact) and their claims to autocephaly are derived from decrees of the Patriarchal Synod of Constantinople, even if it could be argued that Constantinople did not initially have jurisdiction over the Russians (which would be a fairly absurd argument), Moscow accepted the authority of Constantinople over them by recognizing the authority of the Patriarchal Synod of Constantinople to grant them Autocephaly (when before this, autocephaly had only been granted by an oecumenical synod). The source of authority is greater than that which receives authority from the source; if Moscow recognizes the authority of Constantinople to grant autocephaly (which they do by claiming to be autocephalous), it follows that Constantinople has the authority to revoke it (at least revoke the autocephaly she granted, not that granted by oecumenical synods).

So we come down to two possibilities.

1. Constantinople does have authority over Moscow's autocephaly.

2. Constantinople does not have authority over Moscow's Autocephaly (thus only Oecumenical Synods would have that authority). But this means that Constantinople cannot grant Moscow autocephaly either; thus Moscow is not nor has ever been autocepahalous; therefore they are directly under the jurisdiction of the Bishop they were originally under, which, incidentally, happens to be Constantinople.

In either case, the rights of the Oecumenical Throne are protected.

Offline TomS

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2005, 06:13:19 PM »
Where is Constantinople? Somewhere near Abyssinia?
« Last Edit: March 29, 2005, 06:26:46 PM by TomS »

Offline GiC

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2005, 06:14:47 PM »
Elisha,
Any national leader who converts his country to Orthodoxy is given the title of, 'Equal-to-the-Apostles' for his evangelical work in spreading the gospel.

Keble,
Which is why some question whether or not any body less than an oecumenical synod can make churches autocephalous (since you can never be independent of the Communion of the Church anyways), but if that is the case then Moscow has never been autocephalous.

Offline GiC

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2005, 06:16:54 PM »
TomS,

It's right across the straits from Chalcedon, north of Smyrna...I'm sure they'll both be on your map ;)

Offline Elisha

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2005, 06:23:45 PM »
gic,
I'm sorry, but all of your "Constantinople can revoke/has authority over/then Moscow never was" regarding Moscow's Autocephaly are non-sequitur's at worst and faulty logic at best. Parents don't have the power to retract permission of their daughters once the wedding has taken place, the Honeymoon is over, etc...and all of these things are long past.  Furthermore, the EP does define who is and is not in Communion.  If the EP stopped being Orthodox, then the Orthodox Church would still exist in the other Churches.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2005, 06:26:02 PM by Elisha »

Offline GiC

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2005, 06:29:51 PM »
Elisha,
But if the Church says that the marriage was invalid, she has that right. Parents do not preform marriages, the Church does (well, God does through His Church). Just as Constantinople has the right to revoke the authority it grants. It is by no means a non-sequitur, bur rather an important principle of canonical order in the Church that a synod of equal or greater authority can revoke the decision of a previous synod.

Offline Jennifer

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2005, 06:46:14 PM »

I have read Alexy's statement before, it is what is to be expected from a minor Patriarchate trying to push its way to the top;

greekchristian, I've written before about your 'tone' and this is good example of what I'm referring to.  Why the need to refer to the MP as a "minor Patriarchate?"  And once you assume negative motivations of the part of those who disagree with you. 


Offline SaintShenouti

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2005, 06:50:33 PM »
Haha!  Spoken like a true Imperial, Greek.  I'd say politics is politics, and we in Alexandria were thrust out of such matters a millenia and a half ago by political jealousies.  Personally, I find it amusing how Rome and Constantinople continue their bickering over primacy, not to mention the continued arguments over autocephalous Orthodox patrairchates here and there.

May the Lord preserve the lives of our honored father Papa Abba Shenouda III, Pope of Alexandria and Patriarch of the See of St. Mark, and his brothers in the Apostolic service, the honored father Moran Mor Ignatius Zakka Iwas, Patriarch of Antioch and All the East, and the honored father Catholicos Karekin II, Patriarch of All Armenia, and the honored Patriarch of India and the Throne of St. Thomas, Ethiopia, Eriteria, and our Orthodox metropolitan of the British Isles.   

Offline TomS

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2005, 06:58:26 PM »
Personally, I find it amusing how Rome and Constantinople continue their bickering over primacy, not to mention the continued arguments over autocephalous Orthodox patrairchates here and there.

I find it disgusting.

Offline Elisha

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2005, 07:07:21 PM »
Elisha,
But if the Church says that the marriage was invalid, she has that right. Parents do not preform marriages, the Church does (well, God does through His Church). Just as Constantinople has the right to revoke the authority it grants. It is by no means a non-sequitur, bur rather an important principle of canonical order in the Church that a synod of equal or greater authority can revoke the decision of a previous synod.

Nope.  We're talking about housekeeping, not rules of the house.  There's no such thing as revoking independence...a millenium after it has happened.  All of this revoking talk is about meaningful as wondering if God could make a rock so big that he couldn't lift it.

Offline Orthodoc

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2005, 07:08:41 PM »
[I have read Alexy's statement before, it is what is to be expected from a minor Patriarchate trying to push its way to the top; ]

Now that has got to be the most ridiculous statement I've heard in a long time! A Patriarch who has more followers in one Cathedral in Moscow than the EP has in all of Turkey is a minor Patriarchate. It's time that the EP and people like greekischristian realize that Byzantium has been dead and gone for centuries, Constantinople is no more (it is now Istanbul), and the Ecumenical Patriarchate is in its last stages of life as long as it remains in Istanbul!

The old saying that -"In order to be Orthodox one has to be Greek. In order to be Greek one must be Orthodox." Is not only contrary to Scripture which tells us that in Christ there is neither Greek nor Jew, but laughable to anyone who is Orthodox without being Greek.

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Offline TomS

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2005, 07:10:32 PM »
It's time that the EP and people like greekischristian realize that Byzantium has been dead and gone for centuries, Constantinople is no more (it is now Istanbul), and the Ecumenical Patriarchate is in its last stages of life as long as it remains in Istanbul!

AMEN!

The old saying that -"In order to be Orthodox one has to  be Greek.  In order to be Greek one must be Orthodox."  Is not only contrary to Scripture which tells us that in Christ there is neither Greek nor Jew, but laughable to anyone who is Orthodox without being Greek.

Yep.


« Last Edit: March 29, 2005, 07:11:28 PM by TomS »

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2005, 07:34:47 PM »
Where is Constantinople? Somewhere near Abyssinia?

For the more intellectually challenged among us:
40-¦ 58' N     28-¦ 50' E
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2005, 07:43:14 PM »
[I have read Alexy's statement before, it is what is to be expected from a minor Patriarchate trying to push its way to the top; ]

It's time that the EP and people like greekischristian realize that Byzantium has been dead and gone for centuries, Constantinople is no more (it is now Istanbul), and the Ecumenical Patriarchate is in its last stages of life as long as it remains in Istanbul!


Strange...we could have said the same about Moscow until a few (very few) years ago. Argument does wash.
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Offline GiC

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2005, 07:44:34 PM »
Is it just me or are these discussions degenerating very quickly...anyway, here we go again.

Jennifer,
I'm not the only one with a less than stellar opinion of Patriarch Alexy, just look at the opinion of the ROCOR Synod (and you thought I would never agree with them on anything); infact that particular opinion seems fairly universal.

SaintShenouti,
Chalcedon has spoken, both on the issues between Alexandria and Constantinople as well as between Rome and Constantinople; I will continue in the Tradition of the Oecumenical Synods.

Elisha,
Nope. We're talking about housekeeping, not rules of the house. There's no such thing as revoking independence...a millenium after it has happened. All of this revoking talk is about meaningful as wondering if God could make a rock so big that he couldn't lift it.

We're talking about canonical order, not political revolutions. And this discussion is not irrelevant, if we adhered to these concept of Canonical Order we would not have the issue we do today with the Church in America.

Now that has got to be the most ridiculous statement I've heard in a long time! A Patriarch who has more followers in one Cathedral in Moscow than the EP has in all of Turkey is a minor Patriarchate. It's time that the EP and people like greekischristian realize that Byzantium has been dead and gone for centuries, Constantinople is no more (it is now Istanbul), and the Ecumenical Patriarchate is in its last stages of life as long as it remains in Istanbul!

The old saying that -"In order to be Orthodox one has to be Greek. In order to be Greek one must be Orthodox." Is not only contrary to Scripture which tells us that in Christ there is neither Greek nor Jew, but laughable to anyone who is Orthodox without being Greek.

And how does this nullify the Decrees of the 630 Fathers of the Holy and Oecumenical Synod of Chalcedon? We're not talking about a pious tradition, we're talking about the authority of the Oecumenical Synods themselves. If one wants to challenge the decrees of these Holy and Oecumenical Synods, I suggest the present their case at the next one.

Offline Elisha

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2005, 07:45:52 PM »


Strange...we could have said the same about Moscow until a few (very few) years ago. Argument does wash.

Not really. Moscow was more "dormant" per se. The Phanar has no local flock to speak of. They're not going to suddenly materialize 1000 fold with a regime change/more favourable political environment.

Offline Elisha

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2005, 07:49:14 PM »
Elisha,


We're talking about canonical order, not political revolutions. And this discussion is not irrelevant, if we adhered to these concept of Canonical Order we would not have the issue we do today with the Church in America.
No, there would BE no Church in America if followed (your debateable) Canonical Order. 

And how does this nullify the Decrees of the 630 Fathers of the Holy and Oecumenical Synod of Chalcedon? We're not talking about a pious tradition, we're talking about the authority of the Oecumenical Synods themselves. If one wants to challenge the decrees of these Holy and Oecumenical Synods, I suggest the present their case at the next one.
Yeah, and I'm sure you'll be more than happy to let us know when, where and how it will take place.  We're patiently waiting.

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2005, 07:50:35 PM »


Not really.  Moscow was more "dormant" per se.  The Phanar has no local flock to speak of.  They're not going to suddenly materialize 1000 fold with a regime change/more favourable political environment.

Dormant? What a joke! The Phanars flock is now Moslem and little help it wiil get here to change that. As to your other assertion...well then you should be RC if you're counting souls....go figure
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Offline TomS

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2005, 08:01:36 PM »
For the more intellectually challenged among us:
40-¦ 58' N 28-¦ 50' E

Okay - let me try to make this clear to the feeble minded:

Abyssinia NO LONGER EXISTS - it is now Ethiopia. Likewise Constantinople NO LONGER EXISTS - it is Istanbul.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2005, 08:10:11 PM by TomS »

Offline Jennifer

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2005, 08:08:43 PM »

I'm not the only one with a less than stellar opinion of Patriarch Alexy, just look at the opinion of the ROCOR Synod (and you thought I would never agree with them on anything); infact that particular opinion seems fairly universal.


ROCOR's opinions about the MP are't exactly a model of charity.  Regardless, let's refrain from referring to any Orthodox patriarch as a "minor patriarchate."  Moreover, let's refrain from questioning their motives.  I know for a fact that many Orthodox Americans (including many Greeks) are very hostile towards the EP but he's not routinely accused her of having bad motives. 

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2005, 08:10:05 PM »
No, there would BE no Church in America if followed (your debateable) Canonical Order.

Let's back up our statements: please clarify your point here, because it makes no sense.  Canonical Order, in his sense, refers to the jurisdiction of the priests and bishops who reside in America.  He legally has a good point: the only church who had the right to send a bishop to America is the Ecumenical Patriarch.  Every other patriarch either has defined borders (i.e. Moscow), or their "general territory" spreads in a different direction.  But the missionaries would still have come, and the people still would have asked for priests to serve them here.

If we totally disregarded greekischristian's "Canonical Order," then the problems in the church would be manifestly greater than they are now; dare I say, they'd be as bad as the multi-splitting in the Protestant Churches.  Allowing any synod to send a priest or bishop anywhere they want would create, well, situations like America everywhere else in the Orthodox world; you would have Russian diocese throughout Egypt and the Middle East, and Antiochian diocese in Russia, and Greek ones in both.  Canonical Order, though, is a matter for the Priests and Bishops to worry about - not that it is not our business, but they are the ones who will answer for disregarding the Church's decrees.
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Offline GiC

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2005, 08:12:30 PM »
TomS,

It all depends on who makes the Map.

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2005, 08:13:00 PM »
Oh, and BTW: when do you think Constantinople ceased to exist?  Because if you say in the 1400's, you would be wrong... the Turkish Government used it as the legal name of the city into the 1900's - Of course, by saying this I am admitting that the name is no longer legally Constantinople.... But of course, I would like to remember the city as a (at least nominally) Christian one, not as this horrible mess that the invaders have created.
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Offline Orthodoc

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2005, 08:13:48 PM »
[Strange...we could have said the same about Moscow until a few (very few) years ago. Argument does wash.]

Are you saying that Russia got down to a count of 3,000 remaining Orthodox Christians as Turkey has? I was in Russia when communism was still very much charge and every Cathedral I went into on any day of the week had more than 3,000 people in attendance during that particular Liturgy! At last count there were only approximately 3,000 elderly left in Turkey!  Even at its lowest period of persecution the MP had more followers one one diocese than the EP had worldwide.

Sorry, but you are comparing apples and oranges.


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« Last Edit: March 29, 2005, 08:15:59 PM by Orthodoc »
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Offline TomS

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2005, 08:15:39 PM »
Or at least olives and potatoes!  :D

Offline GiC

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2005, 08:16:26 PM »
ROCOR's opinions about the MP are't exactly a model of charity. Regardless, let's refrain from referring to any Orthodox patriarch as a "minor patriarchate." Moreover, let's refrain from questioning their motives. I know for a fact that many Orthodox Americans (including many Greeks) are very hostile towards the EP but he's not routinely accused her of having bad motives.

His All-Holiness is not routinely accused of having bad motives? You could have fooled me.

Offline troy

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2005, 08:18:22 PM »
Well, if one is "counting souls" then it's accurate to note that the number of parishes open at the low point under the Soviets is "some 100's" according to Bishop Kallistos and other contemporary scholars would even say that maybe is an exaggerated amount.

Offline GiC

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #35 on: March 29, 2005, 08:19:10 PM »
[Strange...we could have said the same about Moscow until a few (very few) years ago. Argument does wash.]

Are you saying that Russia got down to a count of 3,000 remaining Orthodox Christians as Turkey has? I was in Russia when communism was still very much charge and every Cathedral I went into on any day of the week had more than 3,000 people in attendance during that particular Liturgy! At last count there were only approximately 3,000 elderly left in Turkey! Even at its lowest period of persecution the MP had more followers one one diocese than the EP had worldwide.

Sorry, but you are comparing apples and oranges.


Orthodoc


I fear Rome has you beat...and hey Islam has them beat with 1.2 billion and growing. Perhaps we should give the Islamic leaders primacy of Honour, then Next after them the Bishop of Rome, then I think the Atheists come in next. We have Oecumenical Synods that establish Canonical Order, not popular votes.

Offline Fr. George

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #36 on: March 29, 2005, 08:19:46 PM »
I know for a fact that many Orthodox Americans (including many Greeks) are very hostile towards the EP but he's not routinely accused her of having bad motives.

I have been one of those who have been critical of the EP's actions in the past, especially towards our church here in America... I agree with him that the GOA is an immature Church as a whole (in terms of both clergy and laity - and I'm including myself a hundredfold in that statement), but I wish he would tell us how to fix that...

Regardless of all this, I still catch flak in my home parish because I still have to admit that he, by the grace of the Ecumenical Synods and the fortuitous (sp?) circumstances of inertia in the Church, is still the Ecumenical Patriarch - 1st among equals, with certain rights and responsibilities that come with it... And while sometimes he does not act in ways that I think the EP should act (I'm talking here about the current incarnation of the EP) I know that some of his motives are strange, yet for a purpose.  (what kind of babbling sentence is that?)

Of course, if the previous EP, DEMETRIOS II were still alive, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion - he was a much different man (humble, quiet, etc.)
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #37 on: March 29, 2005, 08:21:07 PM »


Sorry, but you are comparing apples and oranges.



According to ROCOR until recently the MP did'nt count at all...maybe you're right - counting apples against nothing
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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #38 on: March 29, 2005, 08:22:31 PM »

Of course, if the previous EP, DEMETRIOS II were still alive, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion - he was a much different man (humble, quiet, etc.)

Amen to that!
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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #39 on: March 29, 2005, 08:22:53 PM »
Not really.  Moscow was more "dormant" per se.  The Phanar has no local flock to speak of.  They're not going to suddenly materialize 1000 fold with a regime change/more favourable political environment.

Actually, maybe this will happen.  There is a sizeable crypto-Christian population in Turkey, especially in the area of CONSTANTINOPLE.  No one can estimate its size, but the current social and political climate in the country prohibits them from being recognized and counted.  Entry into the EU may or may not change that, we'll see.  (Of course, entry into the EU will mean millions of Moslems pouring into Europe, accomplishing what they couldn't do in the Middle Ages).
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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #40 on: March 29, 2005, 08:24:04 PM »
Or at least olives and potatoes! :D

About the extent of the understanding of Orthodoxy by some here...
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #41 on: March 29, 2005, 08:25:34 PM »


Actually, maybe this will happen. There is a sizeable crypto-Christian population in Turkey, especially in the area of CONSTANTINOPLE. No one can estimate its size, but the current social and political climate in the country prohibits them from being recognized and counted. Entry into the EU may or may not change that, we'll see. (Of course, entry into the EU will mean millions of Moslems pouring into Europe, accomplishing what they couldn't do in the Middle Ages).

Hey...Good point. When is the EP going to wise up some and offer a few liturgies in TURKISH?
"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides

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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #42 on: March 29, 2005, 08:26:10 PM »


His All-Holiness is not routinely accused of having bad motives? You could have fooled me.

I'm not a moderator and I don't read every post.  If you think he's being unfairly criticized I recommend that you take it up with the moderators instead of criticizing other patriarchs.  Generally speaking, it's better to avoid jurisdictional wars here.  Although all of us are guilty of jurisdiction 'bashing' at one time or the other. 


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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #43 on: March 29, 2005, 08:29:26 PM »
Yeah... who started this thread anyway?
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Re: Autocephaly only at the "good will" of the EP?
« Reply #44 on: March 29, 2005, 08:39:10 PM »
Autocephaly is not something I know much about but this sounds awfully "papist" to me. I know that many Orthodox object to the EP's claims of jurisdiction, believing that he thinks that he's the Orthodox pope...

I'm sure you're right, never is there a disparaging word uttered against the Oecumenical Throne.