Author Topic: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit  (Read 2451 times)

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Offline Rhinosaur

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Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« on: March 12, 2014, 11:07:46 PM »
I'm referring specifically to the type found in Pentecostal/Charismatic churches:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T99fUvuuYOg


As a Catholic, this type of worship is foreign to me, and I'm pretty sure it's not a part of the Orthodox tradition as well.  That being said, I can't entirely write it off as God does work in mysterious and I have no idea what's happening to these people when these things happen.  What's your opinion?

Offline LBK

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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2014, 11:10:12 PM »
It's gibberish, and should be both ignored and not sought after by any Orthodox Christian. Or any Christian worth his salt.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 11:10:38 PM by LBK »
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Offline Rhinosaur

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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2014, 07:59:15 AM »
It's gibberish, and should be both ignored and not sought after by any Orthodox Christian. Or any Christian worth his salt.

Probably, but what I've heard from people who have experienced it, they've said that it feels truly wonderful.  I'm not sure if it was be written off 100%.

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Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

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Offline primuspilus

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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2014, 09:07:38 AM »
It's gibberish, and should be both ignored and not sought after by any Orthodox Christian. Or any Christian worth his salt.

Probably, but what I've heard from people who have experienced it, they've said that it feels truly wonderful.
So does Heroin. Doesn't mean its beneficial.

Quote
I'm not sure if it was be written off 100%.
I will. Its nothing more than hyper-emotional nonsense. The Lord is not the God of frenzy and chaos.

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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2014, 09:15:40 AM »
As a Catholic, this type of worship is foreign to me....
It's not foreign to many other Catholics. Charismatic Catholics do exist. A Pentecostal mega-church pastor in Sweden, Ulf Ekman, recently converted to the Catholic Church because he met Catholics who engaged in charismatic worship, which involves typical Pentecostal practices like speaking in tongues and faith-healing. Ekman wrote about what attracted him to convert:

Quote
We have seen a great love for Jesus and a sound theology, founded on the Bible and classic dogma. We have experienced the richness of sacramental life. We have seen the logic in having a solid structure for priesthood, that keeps the faith of the church and passes it on from one generation to the next. We have met an ethical and moral strength and consistency that dare to face up to the general opinion, and a kindness towards the poor and the weak. And, last but not least, we have come in contact with representatives for millions of charismatic Catholics and we have seen their living faith, Ulf Ekman explains.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 09:18:17 AM by Jetavan »
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Offline Rhinosaur

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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2014, 10:33:18 AM »
As a Catholic, this type of worship is foreign to me....
It's not foreign to many other Catholics. Charismatic Catholics do exist. A Pentecostal mega-church pastor in Sweden, Ulf Ekman, recently converted to the Catholic Church because he met Catholics who engaged in charismatic worship, which involves typical Pentecostal practices like speaking in tongues and faith-healing. Ekman wrote about what attracted him to convert:

Quote
We have seen a great love for Jesus and a sound theology, founded on the Bible and classic dogma. We have experienced the richness of sacramental life. We have seen the logic in having a solid structure for priesthood, that keeps the faith of the church and passes it on from one generation to the next. We have met an ethical and moral strength and consistency that dare to face up to the general opinion, and a kindness towards the poor and the weak. And, last but not least, we have come in contact with representatives for millions of charismatic Catholics and we have seen their living faith, Ulf Ekman explains.

I have heard of such groups, though I wasn't raised in that tradition.

I've always that writhing on the ground screaming nonsense wasn't a way to God.  Also, there's very little emphasis on dealing with your sins and self-improvement, only on making someone feel better about themselves.

Offline Hinterlander

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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2014, 10:50:10 AM »
Some charismatics only speak in tongues in private while some treat it as necessary "proof" that your saved.

Some charismatics seem to seek and celebrate hysterics while others value peace and view such outbursts as dangerous and to be avoided. 

Plenty of charismatics would discount something like the Toronto Blessing.

I've had a number of experiences in different "charismatic" settings which has led me to the position that God is merciful and can/has blessed people within the movement but that in general it is difficult to discern what is happening and seems to create too many "loose cannon" situations. 

My own brief experience within charismatic settings blessed me but also put me in situation where I know I harmed others or was at least a poor witness. 

At this point I have no interest in revisiting or exploring charismatic practices.

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2014, 11:05:11 AM »
Ehhh, part of me thinks that Ulf Ekman joining the RC is just adding more poison to an already poisoned well.

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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2014, 11:27:03 AM »
It's not foreign to many other Catholics.

Thank God, it's foreign to Orthodoxy.

Some charismatics only speak in tongues in private while some treat it as necessary "proof" that your saved.

Some charismatics seem to seek and celebrate hysterics while others value peace and view such outbursts as dangerous and to be avoided. 

Plenty of charismatics would discount something like the Toronto Blessing.

I've had a number of experiences in different "charismatic" settings which has led me to the position that God is merciful and can/has blessed people within the movement but that in general it is difficult to discern what is happening and seems to create too many "loose cannon" situations. 

My own brief experience within charismatic settings blessed me but also put me in situation where I know I harmed others or was at least a poor witness. 

At this point I have no interest in revisiting or exploring charismatic practices.

This sounds like the experience of my friends and family members who were former lifelong Pentecostals and are now Orthodox.  They have no interest in seeing the falsehoods of their former profession penetrate and corrupt Orthodoxy.  If our Orthodox jurisdiction ever accepted Charismatism (thank God, it never could), they'd be out the door faster than Speed Racer, and I'd be right behind them.

Ehhh, part of me thinks that Ulf Ekman joining the RC is just adding more poison to an already poisoned well.

PP

+1
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2014, 01:10:00 PM »
Some charismatics only speak in tongues in private while some treat it as necessary "proof" that your saved.

Some charismatics seem to seek and celebrate hysterics while others value peace and view such outbursts as dangerous and to be avoided. 

Plenty of charismatics would discount something like the Toronto Blessing.

I've had a number of experiences in different "charismatic" settings which has led me to the position that God is merciful and can/has blessed people within the movement but that in general it is difficult to discern what is happening and seems to create too many "loose cannon" situations. 

My own brief experience within charismatic settings blessed me but also put me in situation where I know I harmed others or was at least a poor witness. 

At this point I have no interest in revisiting or exploring charismatic practices.
Agreed.  I grew up in it.  I have no desire to go back, even when my parents invite me to events at their pentecostal church. 
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Offline Rhinosaur

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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2014, 03:14:52 PM »
I was reading the third article and I came across this part:

Quote
Many Protestants who have discerned the fraud of the “charismatic revival” now accept as “the real thing” the spectacular “revival” in Indonesia where, we are told, there are really occurring “the self same things that one finds reported in the Acts of the Apostles.” In the space of three years 200,000 pagans have been converted to Protestantism under constantly miraculous conditions: No one does anything except in absolute obedience to “voices” and “angels” who are constantly appearing, usually quoting Scripture by number and verse; water is turned into wine every time the Protestant communion service comes around; detached hands appear from nowhere to distribute miraculous food to the hungry; a whole band of demons is seen to abandon a pagan village because a “more powerful” one (“Jesus”) has come to take their place; “Christians” have a “countdown” for an unrepentant sinner, and when they come to “zero” he dies; children are taught new Protestant hymns by voices that come from nowhere (and repeat the song twenty times so the children will remember); “God’s tape-recorder” records the song of a children’s choir and plays it back in the air for the astonished children; fire comes down from the sky to consume Catholic religious images (“the Lord” in Indonesia is very anti-Catholic); 30,000 have been healed; “Christ” appears in the sky and “falls” on people in order to heal them; people are miraculously transported from place to place and walk on water; lights accompany evangelists and guide them at night, and clouds follow them and give them shelter during the day: the dead are raised.

Has any of this been confirmed by reputable sources?

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2014, 05:00:57 PM »
I was reading the third article and I came across this part:

Quote
Many Protestants who have discerned the fraud of the “charismatic revival” now accept as “the real thing” the spectacular “revival” in Indonesia where, we are told, there are really occurring “the self same things that one finds reported in the Acts of the Apostles.” In the space of three years 200,000 pagans have been converted to Protestantism under constantly miraculous conditions: No one does anything except in absolute obedience to “voices” and “angels” who are constantly appearing, usually quoting Scripture by number and verse; water is turned into wine every time the Protestant communion service comes around; detached hands appear from nowhere to distribute miraculous food to the hungry; a whole band of demons is seen to abandon a pagan village because a “more powerful” one (“Jesus”) has come to take their place; “Christians” have a “countdown” for an unrepentant sinner, and when they come to “zero” he dies; children are taught new Protestant hymns by voices that come from nowhere (and repeat the song twenty times so the children will remember); “God’s tape-recorder” records the song of a children’s choir and plays it back in the air for the astonished children; fire comes down from the sky to consume Catholic religious images (“the Lord” in Indonesia is very anti-Catholic); 30,000 have been healed; “Christ” appears in the sky and “falls” on people in order to heal them; people are miraculously transported from place to place and walk on water; lights accompany evangelists and guide them at night, and clouds follow them and give them shelter during the day: the dead are raised.

Has any of this been confirmed by reputable sources?
Whom are you quoting? Can you post a link to the source of this text?
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Offline Rhinosaur

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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2014, 05:07:14 PM »
I was reading the third article and I came across this part:

Quote
Many Protestants who have discerned the fraud of the “charismatic revival” now accept as “the real thing” the spectacular “revival” in Indonesia where, we are told, there are really occurring “the self same things that one finds reported in the Acts of the Apostles.” In the space of three years 200,000 pagans have been converted to Protestantism under constantly miraculous conditions: No one does anything except in absolute obedience to “voices” and “angels” who are constantly appearing, usually quoting Scripture by number and verse; water is turned into wine every time the Protestant communion service comes around; detached hands appear from nowhere to distribute miraculous food to the hungry; a whole band of demons is seen to abandon a pagan village because a “more powerful” one (“Jesus”) has come to take their place; “Christians” have a “countdown” for an unrepentant sinner, and when they come to “zero” he dies; children are taught new Protestant hymns by voices that come from nowhere (and repeat the song twenty times so the children will remember); “God’s tape-recorder” records the song of a children’s choir and plays it back in the air for the astonished children; fire comes down from the sky to consume Catholic religious images (“the Lord” in Indonesia is very anti-Catholic); 30,000 have been healed; “Christ” appears in the sky and “falls” on people in order to heal them; people are miraculously transported from place to place and walk on water; lights accompany evangelists and guide them at night, and clouds follow them and give them shelter during the day: the dead are raised.

Has any of this been confirmed by reputable sources?
Whom are you quoting? Can you post a link to the source of this text?

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/charismatic-revival-sign-times-seraphim-rose/

It's towards the bottom.

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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2014, 05:11:49 PM »
I was reading the third article and I came across this part:

Quote
Many Protestants who have discerned the fraud of the “charismatic revival” now accept as “the real thing” the spectacular “revival” in Indonesia where, we are told, there are really occurring “the self same things that one finds reported in the Acts of the Apostles.” In the space of three years 200,000 pagans have been converted to Protestantism under constantly miraculous conditions: No one does anything except in absolute obedience to “voices” and “angels” who are constantly appearing, usually quoting Scripture by number and verse; water is turned into wine every time the Protestant communion service comes around; detached hands appear from nowhere to distribute miraculous food to the hungry; a whole band of demons is seen to abandon a pagan village because a “more powerful” one (“Jesus”) has come to take their place; “Christians” have a “countdown” for an unrepentant sinner, and when they come to “zero” he dies; children are taught new Protestant hymns by voices that come from nowhere (and repeat the song twenty times so the children will remember); “God’s tape-recorder” records the song of a children’s choir and plays it back in the air for the astonished children; fire comes down from the sky to consume Catholic religious images (“the Lord” in Indonesia is very anti-Catholic); 30,000 have been healed; “Christ” appears in the sky and “falls” on people in order to heal them; people are miraculously transported from place to place and walk on water; lights accompany evangelists and guide them at night, and clouds follow them and give them shelter during the day: the dead are raised.

Has any of this been confirmed by reputable sources?
Whom are you quoting? Can you post a link to the source of this text?

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/charismatic-revival-sign-times-seraphim-rose/

It's towards the bottom.
Fr. Seraphim wrote this back about 40-50 years ago.
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Offline Rhinosaur

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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2014, 05:13:45 PM »
I was reading the third article and I came across this part:

Quote
Many Protestants who have discerned the fraud of the “charismatic revival” now accept as “the real thing” the spectacular “revival” in Indonesia where, we are told, there are really occurring “the self same things that one finds reported in the Acts of the Apostles.” In the space of three years 200,000 pagans have been converted to Protestantism under constantly miraculous conditions: No one does anything except in absolute obedience to “voices” and “angels” who are constantly appearing, usually quoting Scripture by number and verse; water is turned into wine every time the Protestant communion service comes around; detached hands appear from nowhere to distribute miraculous food to the hungry; a whole band of demons is seen to abandon a pagan village because a “more powerful” one (“Jesus”) has come to take their place; “Christians” have a “countdown” for an unrepentant sinner, and when they come to “zero” he dies; children are taught new Protestant hymns by voices that come from nowhere (and repeat the song twenty times so the children will remember); “God’s tape-recorder” records the song of a children’s choir and plays it back in the air for the astonished children; fire comes down from the sky to consume Catholic religious images (“the Lord” in Indonesia is very anti-Catholic); 30,000 have been healed; “Christ” appears in the sky and “falls” on people in order to heal them; people are miraculously transported from place to place and walk on water; lights accompany evangelists and guide them at night, and clouds follow them and give them shelter during the day: the dead are raised.

Has any of this been confirmed by reputable sources?
Whom are you quoting? Can you post a link to the source of this text?

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/charismatic-revival-sign-times-seraphim-rose/

It's towards the bottom.
Fr. Seraphim wrote this back about 40-50 years ago.

I didn't know that.  Still, were there any reputable accounts of these happenings?  They seem pretty extraordinary (and scary) to say the least.

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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2014, 06:23:17 PM »
I didn't know that.  Still, were there any reputable accounts of these happenings?  They seem pretty extraordinary (and scary) to say the least.

Yes, everything in the article can be sourced in newspaper accounts, et cetera, from the time.  I knew an EO priest, an older man, who knew every account and article Fr. Seraphim was referencing specifically, but I won't pretend that I do.  To try to source them now, so many years later, would take more digging than I'd care to do.  Obviously, the Indonesia stuff takes a different form than what North American or European Charismatics are used to, but the Global Charismatic Movement takes on many forms.
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline Maximum Bob

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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2014, 09:38:14 PM »
Some charismatics only speak in tongues in private while some treat it as necessary "proof" that your saved.

Some charismatics seem to seek and celebrate hysterics while others value peace and view such outbursts as dangerous and to be avoided. 

Plenty of charismatics would discount something like the Toronto Blessing.

I've had a number of experiences in different "charismatic" settings which has led me to the position that God is merciful and can/has blessed people within the movement but that in general it is difficult to discern what is happening and seems to create too many "loose cannon" situations. 

My own brief experience within charismatic settings blessed me but also put me in situation where I know I harmed others or was at least a poor witness. 

At this point I have no interest in revisiting or exploring charismatic practices.

Thank you for a very balanced approach.  Too many times Orthodox with no experience in Protestantism paint all Protestants with the same brush. Too many times even those who do have such a Protestant past only vilify it. This is refreshing.

As was said, not all Pentecostals are the same. The church I left is of the much more quiet variety. Tongues weren't mandatory. Things were not to be done ostentatiously, and there was to always be order. I know these people and I know they love God. To be sure they cling to the 5 solas even if most of them don't know that they're doing so. They lack our connection with our past and with the Saints and with angels. For the most part they don't know Church history beyond their own denomination and Martin Luther. But they believe in free will, and were so like the Orthodox in many beliefs that it really wasn't hard for me to convert doctrinally.

I won't say that any of the other comments are wrong only that they don't apply to everyone and you can't evaluate something if you only look at it from one side.
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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2014, 07:21:41 PM »
As was said, not all Pentecostals are the same. The church I left is of the much more quiet variety. Tongues weren't mandatory. Things were not to be done ostentatiously, and there was to always be order. I know these people and I know they love God. To be sure they cling to the 5 solas even if most of them don't know that they're doing so. They lack our connection with our past and with the Saints and with angels. For the most part they don't know Church history beyond their own denomination and Martin Luther. But they believe in free will, and were so like the Orthodox in many beliefs that it really wasn't hard for me to convert doctrinally.

I won't say that any of the other comments are wrong only that they don't apply to everyone and you can't evaluate something if you only look at it from one side.

That's very true.  I still know - and love deeply - some very good people who are still involved in churches of the type you've describe above.  Saying that the phenomena attributed to the Holy Spirit in these churches (pseudo-tongues, slain in the spirit, etc.) is false is not judging the people.

Also, for a loving, balanced and very Orthodox assessment of Pentecostalism, I'd recommend In Peace Let us Pray to the Lord by Father Alexis Karakallinos (at the time known as John F. Trader).  He wrote it for loved ones still involved in the movement.  The section on Pentecostalism and Charismatism in Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick's Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy is also very valuable.
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

http://returntoorthodoxy.com/

Offline Ferd Berfel

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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2014, 08:32:31 AM »
As someone with a lifetime of experience revolving around charismatic and Pentecostal Christianity, I have a wall of text to present:

I was raised in the Assemblies of God church; as a child, I was surrounded by the whole "speaking in tongues" thing. My mom used to do it a lot while praying over me and  my brother as children. As a very young child, I remember being confused by it; I didn’t understand the jibber-jabber. Why pray if no one could understand you?

Of course, my mother was very firm in her conviction and very sure of her explanation, so I accepted it. At that age, you tend to accept what your parents know as being truth. I remember going through the whole “baptism of the Holy Spirit” thing around age 10. It was right after I was baptized into the AOG church. They had a whole class that revolved around understanding and then receiving the gifts of the Holy Spirit, primarily the gift of speaking in tongues. My parents, my younger brother and I all attended this class; at the end of it, the teacher had an altar call for anyone that wanted to be “slain in the Spirit” to receive the gifts.

My brother and I both went forward bravely; at age 9 and 10 respectively, we really didn’t have a concept of what was going on, but I thought it must be gravely important. I remember the preacher laying his hands on my forehead and another dude standing behind me ready to catch me when I fell to the ground. Eventually I did, but it wasn’t really out of anything that might have been called the Holy Spirit. More or less, I remember lying on the ground with my eyes closed, wondering if I was supposed to be feeling something. I was a bit confused, but eventually I stood up and went back to my seat and my parents seemed really proud of me.

There was another time as well, at a youth camp when I was a teenager in high school. I remember it being an incredibly emotional and moving worship service at the time. I had been going through a lot of personal turmoil, and this camp was the first time I’d ever really experienced any sort of powerful emotional release. I had dealt with suicidal ideation, an eating disorder, bullying, and all manner of other things throughout my adolescence, and most of the time the emotions I had were bottled. This camp was the first time I’d honestly released anything, and I finally felt joyful. This time, I didn’t have any ministers praying over me. I just remember standing to the side of the altar and praying fervently, and then I sort of collapsed. Maybe it was a genuine experience of God, maybe it was an emotional reaction, maybe it was the fact that I was very out of shape and standing in a hot and sweaty room in a cabin on top of a mountain and I was unaccustomed to the altitude.

After getting up that time, I felt sort of embarrassed. People had noticed, but most had left me to my own devices. I was invited by the youth pastor to share a testimony of what was happening to me, and I did. The people around me were very convinced that I had been “slain in the Spirit”. At the time, I felt that it had genuinely been an experience with God. Actually, at both times if you had asked me what had happened, I would have plainly stated, “It was God”.

Now, looking back, I can see that both of those experiences were somewhat… dubious. I don’t regret them, and I certainly don’t have any negative feelings about the people that led me into the experience either. When it occurred, I was practicing Christianity the best way that I knew how. It might have been wrong, but my heart was genuine and I was doing the best I could with what I had available.

I was speaking with a deacon the other day about this very thing. His opinion was that in doing these things, “You’re letting your worship be ruled by the passions.” I would tend to agree with this statement. Once again, at the time I was certainly practicing the best Christianity that I knew. That’s what I think about most of these folks, including the preachers and ministers that teach it. They’re (mostly) incredibly genuine about what they believe, and they truly believe that their experiences are genuine.

That being said, I don’t really think that the experiences of being “slain in the Spirit” and “speaking in tongues” as these people understand them are truly Godly. I don’t consider them satanic either; I think it’s very simply explained by people getting caught up in the emotion of it all and being swept off their feet by their own passions. From my own experience as a layman and as a protestant minister, charismatic Christianity becomes a game of chasing the emotional high. You’re not truly experiencing God if you’re not getting high, and it can become very addictive.

The unfortunate side of this is that much like doing hard drugs instead of eating real food, one quickly will become spiritually malnourished by this practice. All too often have I seen people that practice this sort of Christianity reach their peak and then blaze out, never to return to the church again. There are a myriad of reasons why this happens, but it all boils down to the same thing: Their worship is ruled by their passions, and it isn’t truly providing spiritual nourishment. That isn’t to say that this happens to everyone; my grandmother, one of the most devout Christians I’ve ever known, was incredibly driven by her charismatic beliefs. To the very day she died, she was always praying in tongues and having powerful experiences in her prayer. Were they genuinely the Holy Spirit, or was it just emotion? I don’t know; it’s not for me to say. I am very certain that she was genuine; I don’t think for a second that she would fake anything like that.

Essentially, what I think is this: Most of the people that you see practicing charismatic Christianity are genuine. They really do believe that what they’re doing is really real. They’re trying to practice Christianity the best that they can. Unfortunately, their version of Christianity frequently becomes a practice of chasing useless emotional highs instead of actual spiritual nourishment, and it results in far too many people going down in a blaze of glory, never to return to Christianity. I don’t really believe that the whole charismatic practice of being “slain in the Spirit” and “speaking in tongues” (a la Binny Hinn et al) is genuinely the Holy Spirit; I’m pretty convinced that it’s people being swept up in their emotions and allowing the passions to rule their worship. They aren’t doing it on purpose; they just don’t know what they’re missing.

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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2015, 05:02:49 PM »
Ah. This always fascinates me. I went to college and become roped in by the Evangelical scene. I remember going to weekend workshops and having an "alter call" where they *taught* you how to speak in tongues. The church said that speaking in tongues is proof that you have the Holy Spirit in you and it is very hard to become a church leader without being able to speak in tongues.

That being said, my father-in-law was made an elder in this church and he does not speak in tongues. It was a huge ordeal. :/

But I have heard many people's tongue languages and they repeat the same phrase over and over. For example, one of the pastors says: "Shen-na-na-kai". Bam! That's the only phrase he says when he "speaks in tongues". It's really interesting to see that these people honestly think they are speaking in tongues. Who knows, maybe they are. But any time someone has tried to teach me how, I saw that it was fake. "Now, open your mouth and just start saying 'da da da' and it will just come to you." It never did. And I tried.

But I also came from a Roman Catholic background so this was so, so foreign and odd to me. It still is.

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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2015, 02:09:15 AM »
Ah. This always fascinates me. I went to college and become roped in by the Evangelical scene. I remember going to weekend workshops and having an "alter call" where they *taught* you how to speak in tongues. The church said that speaking in tongues is proof that you have the Holy Spirit in you and it is very hard to become a church leader without being able to speak in tongues.

That being said, my father-in-law was made an elder in this church and he does not speak in tongues. It was a huge ordeal. :/

But I have heard many people's tongue languages and they repeat the same phrase over and over. For example, one of the pastors says: "Shen-na-na-kai". Bam! That's the only phrase he says when he "speaks in tongues". It's really interesting to see that these people honestly think they are speaking in tongues. Who knows, maybe they are. But any time someone has tried to teach me how, I saw that it was fake. "Now, open your mouth and just start saying 'da da da' and it will just come to you." It never did. And I tried.

But I also came from a Roman Catholic background so this was so, so foreign and odd to me. It still is.

It came odd to me as well. I found it easier to switch to German (my second language) than it ever was to speak in tongues. The most I ever had, was the whispering feeling like a radio barely drifting across distant stations while being prayed with for the 'anointing of the Holy Spirit'. Of course, now I know it was my mind fishing for something, but not finding anything there.

Essentially, what I think is this: Most of the people that you see practicing charismatic Christianity are genuine. They really do believe that what they’re doing is really real. They’re trying to practice Christianity the best that they can. Unfortunately, their version of Christianity frequently becomes a practice of chasing useless emotional highs instead of actual spiritual nourishment, and it results in far too many people going down in a blaze of glory, never to return to Christianity. I don’t really believe that the whole charismatic practice of being “slain in the Spirit” and “speaking in tongues” (a la Binny Hinn et al) is genuinely the Holy Spirit; I’m pretty convinced that it’s people being swept up in their emotions and allowing the passions to rule their worship. They aren’t doing it on purpose; they just don’t know what they’re missing.


I'm with you on this. I've known plenty of 'prayer warrior' grandmothers that would wear the carpet out and cry every tear for those sick or lost. I think the congregation on most accounts mean well, they just don't have better tools or knowledge to work with. It wasnt until I started addressing the gnawing aspect of 'What the heck happened between the book of Acts, and today besides the Crusades and the Reformation?" and those questions no one could give a solid answer to, that the whole frame work began to fall apart.

The two biggest blows were finding A). 'The Bible Answer Man' and his book on creation (which completely shot my well meaning church's confusing understanding of Genesis and the Fall to bits) and Charamatics/Televangelists (Christianity in Crisis: 21st Century Edition).
B ). the book Charismatic Chaos, which has pretty much destroyed any faith in Charismatic/pentecostal ideals.

Since then, it seems to me the process, though intended in ernest, is an endless cycle on Fortuna's wheel. You reach for that first 'amazingly connected' service/prayer meeting, and everything else is a slow list of what 'we' must do to get deeper into God, and have the holy spirit 'come down' , and 'turn America back'. It's a bit uncomfortable to go to, but I won't be in the states for much longer.

Offline Gebre Menfes Kidus

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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2015, 04:25:18 AM »
Borat speaks in tongues:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2VU8tDzUGk


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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2015, 04:28:32 PM »
I find it funny that there is now an entire denomination based on a single mentioning of St. Paul's "speaking with the tongues of angels" verse, yet they deny the Real Presence....neat-o.

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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2015, 04:35:55 PM »
I had heard that in ancient times, "the tongue of men and angels" was a poetic reference to Hebrew.  :)

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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2015, 04:50:38 PM »
I had heard that in ancient times, "the tongue of men and angels" was a poetic reference to Hebrew.  :)
Interesting,  remember where you heard it?
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Offline biro

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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2015, 04:52:32 PM »
I had heard that in ancient times, "the tongue of men and angels" was a poetic reference to Hebrew.  :)
Interesting,  remember where you heard it?

Sorry, may have been a Jewish podcast but I can't remember which one. :)

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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2015, 11:59:56 AM »
I can't entirely write it off as God does work in mysterious and I have no idea what's happening to these people when these things happen.  What's your opinion?

313 Azusa Street, AD 1900 -from whence the entire modern tongues movement sprang All major modern Pentecostal and Charismatic trajectories descend historically from this location/event.

On closer investigation of the actual phenomena (e.g. academic ethno-linguistic, historical, and neuro-biological -see below), and considering the actual problematic history of the origin of what have become standard paradigms of the phenomena within the movement itself, it becomes far more difficult to deny strong warrant for a very deep skepticism re. the vast majority of what is passed off as glossolalia in contemporary Protestantism, IMHO.

The modern tongues movement essentially began 7:00 p.m. on New Year's Eve of the year 1900, and mushroomed due to a series of newspaper articles that were initially more interested in the fact that blacks and whites were, under the direction of black pastor William Joseph Seymour who spearheaded the phenomena, having tiny joint services (which didn't last long -major branches, e.g. the Assembly of God denomination, began as an early schism of the same movement by those who wanted whites only, a sordid origin which AOG formally repented of -thank God- as a denomination not very long ago). The first article stimulated crowds of gawkers to arrive the very next day, which crowds brought even more reporters to comment, and a media series developed even more gawkers(!).

When the turn-of-the-twentieth-century Azusa street revival -the origin of the modern tongues movement- all the participants believed they had received the gift of speaking in actual extant human languages that would usher in the last day revival when people in would hear the Gospel uttered by foreigners (American Californians) in languages the Americans did not actually know how to speak; after the predicted soon coming mass supernaturally ushered revival would come the end of all ends -the Book of Revelation would soon read like a current newspaper account.

Accordingly, many of the original Pentecostals sold possessions etc. in order to travel by sea and by air, to many foreign countries, fully believing that when they spoke in tongues their hearers would supernaturally hear the Gospel (oops #1). When that expectation did not materialize, and only at that time, the chastened and to a tragic extent travel-weary movement as a whole adopted the "standard" interpretation (i.e. -as Protestant F. F. Bruce might have it, the "soon-to be traditional" modified interpretation) that the gift they had received must be some kind of angelic language, or some kind of prayer language no person but God really understands. On the surface the revised account might seem less susceptible to the sort of serious falsification the "first wave" paradigm encountered; as it turned out, however, this would not be the case.

That modern tongues speaking probably isn't a language of any kind -angelic or human- was fairly well confirmed by a massive 5 year long multi-national linguistic analysis of tongue speakers from different cultures and language groups which confirmed not only that the tongues being spoken in the movement did not correspond to any known language, but, further, that the specific manner that people "spoke in tongues" was in accordance with the phonemes (basic vocalizations) which occurred in a given speaker's native language! The "heavenly language's" origin seemed to be of the earth, not just of the earth, but regional earth locations, varying very specifically by limitation to the specific language sounds known from birth by the given tongues speaker, varying according to one's native language and place of residence.

I. Howard Marshall, commenting on the skepticism-inducing nature of the exhaustive linguistic studies, nevertheless pointed to an example of a Marxist revolutionary and atheist known to Marshall who was converted to Christ after hearing his own daughter speak in a language that he had mastered, but that -he knew- his daughter was unable to speak. Marshall felt this case too convincing for him personally to discount despite the movement as a whole being still, well, entirely unconvincing to him (note, despite Marshall showing no bias for cessationism).

To sum up, I have never thought scriptural arguments for cessationism by Protestant cessationists are even remotely convincing (see Addendum 2 below), however the nature of the phenomena in question themselves when placed under closer scrutiny (not to mention ancillary issues like heretical Sabellianism/monarchial modalism espoused by millions of pentecostals, e.g. United Pentecostal International et al, God wants you rich if you donate to me Prosperity Theology which is very prominent throughout all Charismatic and Pentecostal trajectories) and... well... just color me deeply skeptical of at least the vast bulk of the whole contemporary movement for now -while being anything but a cessationist personally.

__________
Addendum from the Wiki article on Glossolalia

Quote
Substantial scientific studies have been published that provide an objective description of the linguistics of glossolalic speech and the neural behaviour of the speakers.

Linguistics of Pentecostal glossolalia

William J. Samarin, a linguist from the University of Toronto, published a thorough assessment of Pentecostal glossolalia that became a classic work on its linguistic characteristics.[5] His assessment was based on a large sample of glossolalia recorded in public and private Christian meetings in Italy, Holland, Jamaica, Canada and the USA over the course of five years; his wide range included the Puerto Ricans of the Bronx, the Snake Handlers of the Appalachians, and Russian Molokan in Los Angeles.

Samarin found that glossolalic speech does resemble human language in some respects. The speaker uses accent, rhythm, intonation and pauses to break up the speech into distinct units. Each unit is itself made up of syllables, the syllables being formed from consonants and vowels taken from a language known to the speaker.

It is verbal behavior that consists of using a certain number of consonants and vowels[...]in a limited number of syllables that in turn are organized into larger units that are taken apart and rearranged pseudogrammatically[...]with variations in pitch, volume, speed and intensity.[6]

[Glossolalia] consists of strings of syllables, made up of sounds taken from all those that the speaker knows, put together more or less haphazardly but emerging nevertheless as word-like and sentence-like units because of realistic, language-like rhythm and melody.[7]

That the sounds are taken from the set of sounds already known to the speaker is confirmed by others: Felicitas Goodman found that the speech of glossolalists reflected the patterns of speech of the speaker's native language.[8]

Samarin found that the resemblance to human language was merely on the surface, and so concluded that glossolalia is "only a facade of language".[9] He reached this conclusion because the syllable string did not form words, the stream of speech was not internally organised, and– most importantly of all– there was no systematic relationship between units of speech and concepts. Humans use language to communicate, but glossolalia does not. Therefore he concluded that glossolalia is not "a specimen of human language because it is neither internally organized nor systematically related to the world man perceives".[9]

On the basis of his linguistic analysis, Samarin defined Pentecostal glossolalia as "meaningless but phonologically structured human utterance, believed by the speaker to be a real language but bearing no systematic resemblance to any natural language, living or dead".[10]

Practitioners of glossolalia may disagree with linguistic researchers and claim that they are speaking human languages (xenoglossia). For example Ralph Harris, in the work Spoken By the Spirit published by Radiant Life/GPH in 1973, describes seventy five occasions when glossolalic speech was understood by others. (Scientific research into such claims is documented in the article on xenoglossia.)
[edit] Comparative linguistics

Felicitas Goodman, a psychological anthropologist and linguist, studied a number of Pentecostal communities in the United States, Caribbean and Mexico; these included English, Spanish and Mayan speaking groups. She compared what she found with recordings of non-Christian rituals from Africa, Borneo, Indonesia and Japan. She took into account both the segmental structure (such as sounds, syllables, phrases) and the supra-segmental elements (rhythm, accent, intonation), and concluded that there was no distinction between what was practiced by the Pentecostal Protestants and the followers of other religions.[11]

Neuroscience

In 2006, the brains of a group of individuals were scanned while they were speaking in tongues. Activity in the language centers of the brain decreased, while activity in the emotional centers of the brain increased. Activity in the area of control decreased, which corresponds with the reported experience of loss of control. There were no changes in any language areas, suggesting that glossolalia is not associated with usual language function.[12][13][14] Other brain wave studies have also found that brain activity alters in glossolalia.[15]
Scientific explanation

Attempts to explain these physical and psychological from a scientific perspective have been suggested, including mental illness, hypnosis, and learned behaviour...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossolalia#Neuroscience

_________
Addendum 2  Re. Protestant "Cessationism." While the modern tongues movement invites skepticism, the questionable exegesis among Protestant cessasionists hardly suffices to inspire confidence of its own right. Protestant scholar F. F. Bruce begins his fine little book Tradition: Old and New (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1970) with the example of another writer in his own cessationist denomination citing "proof text" 1 Cor 13:10 as meaning "when the perfect, -that is the BIBLICAL CANON- comes, imperfect things -stuff like TONGUES AND MIRACLES- will pass away."
The writer had described said reading as "the standard interpretation in our brotherhood." This description for Bruce warranted its place as his first example of "Protestant tradition." Bruce agrees that Protestantism no less than any other trajectory has its own tradition, however the manner in which his writer appealed to it uncritically invited the retort:
"Quite apart from the validity of the exegesis -and that the concept of the completed New Testament canon was present to Paul's mind is extremely improbable- it is unwise to refer people of independent thought to a standard interpretation, for the very fact of its being so described renders it suspect" (ibid, p. 14).
« Last Edit: June 27, 2015, 12:30:08 PM by xariskai »

Offline biro

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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2015, 12:34:43 AM »
Tl;dr

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2015, 09:08:45 AM »
Tl;dr
biro, please post something of more content than this. This is totally off topic in that it does nothing to engage the points raised within the post, and it violates our rule against low content posts.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 09:10:15 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline biro

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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2015, 10:36:06 AM »
Okay.

These verses come to mind:

1 Corinthians 14:27-28 If any speak with a tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and in course, and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him hold his peace in the church, and speak to himself and to God.

When people do the falling-down fits of glossalia, the kind you may see on TBN or something, you never see them with an interpreter. Total gibberish, even if the speaker thinks he or she is in a moment of joy with God, can't be useful to the audience.

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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2015, 02:04:47 PM »
Quote
1 Corinthians 14:27-28 If any speak with a tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and in course, and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him hold his peace in the church, and speak to himself and to God.
Which IMHO says exactly zero about some "tongue of angels" nonsense.

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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2015, 02:43:05 PM »
what I think is this: Most of the people that you see practicing charismatic Christianity are genuine. They really do believe that what they’re doing is really real. They’re trying to practice Christianity the best that they can. Unfortunately, their version of Christianity frequently becomes a practice of chasing useless emotional highs instead of actual spiritual nourishment, and it results in far too many people going down in a blaze of glory, never to return to Christianity. I don’t really believe that the whole charismatic practice of being “slain in the Spirit” and “speaking in tongues” (a la Binny Hinn et al) is genuinely the Holy Spirit; I’m pretty convinced that it’s people being swept up in their emotions and allowing the passions to rule their worship.

I agree. I was brought into the Charismatic movement in 1966, via a friend from an Elim Pentecostal Church - an old-style Pentecostal at the time - and I remained in the movement, persuaded of its theology till about 30 years ago. I am very glad that, at that time, my wife and I came out of it, before it went as strange as in the You Tube extract, and neither of us have any desire to return.

Studying the early Primitive Methodists here in Britain, I also see people falling down, getting 'into the glory', or being 'in vision', and I have no doubt that a genuine work of the Holy Spirit was going on among them at that time. It was founded on searching, theologically-grounded preaching, and the emotions were of deep awareness of sins and of innate sinfulness, and of overwhelming gratitude for the forgiveness God gave on the basis of Christ's work of redemption. In the early Victorian society of debauchery, drunkenness, poverty, uncertainty, grinding agricultural labour, and often brutal sports and entertainments, it is not surprising that men and women responded to God's love with surging emotion.

I cannot feel that this, some two centuries later, breathes the same ethos.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 02:45:00 PM by David Young »
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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2015, 04:03:26 PM »
Studying the early Primitive Methodists here in Britain, I also see people falling down, getting 'into the glory', or being 'in vision', and I have no doubt that a genuine work of the Holy Spirit was going on among them at that time.

I couldn't disagree more.  Such was never a part of the historic Church, except in the case of demoniacs.
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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2015, 03:26:59 PM »
what I think is this: Most of the people that you see practicing charismatic Christianity are genuine. They really do believe that what they’re doing is really real. They’re trying to practice Christianity the best that they can. Unfortunately, their version of Christianity frequently becomes a practice of chasing useless emotional highs instead of actual spiritual nourishment, and it results in far too many people going down in a blaze of glory, never to return to Christianity. I don’t really believe that the whole charismatic practice of being “slain in the Spirit” and “speaking in tongues” (a la Binny Hinn et al) is genuinely the Holy Spirit; I’m pretty convinced that it’s people being swept up in their emotions and allowing the passions to rule their worship.

I agree. I was brought into the Charismatic movement in 1966, via a friend from an Elim Pentecostal Church - an old-style Pentecostal at the time - and I remained in the movement, persuaded of its theology till about 30 years ago. I am very glad that, at that time, my wife and I came out of it, before it went as strange as in the You Tube extract, and neither of us have any desire to return.

Studying the early Primitive Methodists here in Britain, I also see people falling down, getting 'into the glory', or being 'in vision', and I have no doubt that a genuine work of the Holy Spirit was going on among them at that time. It was founded on searching, theologically-grounded preaching, and the emotions were of deep awareness of sins and of innate sinfulness, and of overwhelming gratitude for the forgiveness God gave on the basis of Christ's work of redemption. In the early Victorian society of debauchery, drunkenness, poverty, uncertainty, grinding agricultural labour, and often brutal sports and entertainments, it is not surprising that men and women responded to God's love with surging emotion.

I cannot feel that this, some two centuries later, breathes the same ethos.
The charismatic movement can be easily understood by reading this article.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_hysteria
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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2015, 09:47:46 PM »
Studying the early Primitive Methodists here in Britain, I also see people falling down, getting 'into the glory', or being 'in vision', and I have no doubt that a genuine work of the Holy Spirit was going on among them at that time.

I couldn't disagree more.  Such was never a part of the historic Church, except in the case of demoniacs.
Well we certainly have Saints that have seen visions.  Falling down at least in the theology of the Church I left simply meant that one was overcome by the presence of God so strong that it was not possible to stand such as perhaps happened to Saul of Tarsus in Acts 9:3-4 or John in Rev. 1:17, or the prophet in Ezekiel 1:28, or the priests in  2 Chronicles 5:14.

The shaking and dancing around I won't defend though, and IF that's what is meant here by "getting into the Glory"  I won't defend that either.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2015, 02:47:55 AM »
To kick it old school, check our dear departed Fr. Thom's take on the matter.  As in most matters his POV is brilliant and succinct. Those who google will find.

Calling it gibberish and the like of course is from the evil one and should be roundly rejected.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2015, 02:49:02 AM by orthonorm »
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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2015, 04:09:37 AM »
what is meant here by "getting into the Glory"

Does anyone know, nearly 200 years later? In seeking to discern whether a work is of God or not, I look for preaching and testifying that honours Christ in His Person and work, Saviour, Lord, Son of God, and Trinitarian orthodoxy; and for changed lives which give evidence of God's working in them by goodness, gentleness, patience &c (i.e. the fruit of the Spirit) over a sustained period. I see these things as I read of early Primitive Methodism, and of many other movements in church history.

Here is Walter Hilton:

For when grace comes in such power it makes the body sway back and forth in ecstasy, much like that of a man who is drunk and cannot steady himself. In such a case the body may even fall down, unable to bear it.

Nevertheless this force is so mighty within that it strikes out into the body, so that all the body may quake and tremble.


The alleged excessive emotionalism of early Methodism has attracted much contempt and ridicule, both in scholarly writing and fiction (e.g. Arnold Bennett (Anna of the Five Towns in Chapter 5: The Revival (1902)). The quotation above comes from Hilton’s Ladder of Perfection, written about 1380.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2015, 04:11:05 AM by David Young »
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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2015, 06:21:23 AM »
what is meant here by "getting into the Glory"

Does anyone know, nearly 200 years later? In seeking to discern whether a work is of God or not, I look for preaching and testifying that honours Christ in His Person and work, Saviour, Lord, Son of God, and Trinitarian orthodoxy; and for changed lives which give evidence of God's working in them by goodness, gentleness, patience &c (i.e. the fruit of the Spirit) over a sustained period. I see these things as I read of early Primitive Methodism, and of many other movements in church history.

Here is Walter Hilton:

For when grace comes in such power it makes the body sway back and forth in ecstasy, much like that of a man who is drunk and cannot steady himself. In such a case the body may even fall down, unable to bear it.

Nevertheless this force is so mighty within that it strikes out into the body, so that all the body may quake and tremble.


The alleged excessive emotionalism of early Methodism has attracted much contempt and ridicule, both in scholarly writing and fiction (e.g. Arnold Bennett (Anna of the Five Towns in Chapter 5: The Revival (1902)). The quotation above comes from Hilton’s Ladder of Perfection, written about 1380.

There's a good edition of Hilton's The Scale [or Ladder] of Perfection available online in Middle English.  The two sentences you quote come from Book I, Chapters (paragraphs, really) 30 and 31, respectively:

Quote
That this maner of praier pleseth moche God, and maketh a man to have him as he were
dronken, and maketh his soule to be woundid with the suerd of love.
 
This maner of praier mykil pleseth God, for it is oonli in the affeccion of the herte, and
therfore it goth nevere awey unsped withoutin sum grace. This praier longeth to the
secunde partie of contemplacioun, as I have bifore seide. Whoso hath this gift of God
ferventli, hym bihoveth for the tyme flee presence and cumpanye of alle men and to be
alone that he be not lettid. Whoso hath it, holde it while he may, for it mai not longe laste
in the fervour. For yif grace come plenteuousli, it is traveilous wondirfulli to the spirit,
though it be likande; and it is mykil wastande the bodili kynde, whoso mykil useth it, for
it maketh the bodi, yif grace come myghtili, for to stire and turne heer and theer as a
man that were mad or dronken and can have noo reste
. And this is a poynt of the
passion of love, the whiche bi grete violence and maistrie breketh doun alle lustis and
likynges of alle ertheli thinges, and it woundeth the soule with the blisful swerd of love,
that the bodi faileth and falleth doun and mai not bere it. This touchynge is of so grete
myght that the moste vicious or fleschli man lyvand in erthe, yif he were wel touchid
ones myghtili with this scharp suerd, he schulde be right saad and sobre a grete while
after, and lothe alle likynges and the lustis of the fleisch, and of alle ertheli thinges
whiche he hadde bifore most likynge inne.

and

Quote
Hou fier of love wasteth alle fleischli lustes, as othir fier wasteth alle bodili thynges here.
 
Of this maner of felynge speketh the prophete Jeremye thus: Et factus est in corde meo
quasi ignis estuans, claususque in ossibus meis, et defeci, ferre non sustinens (Jeremiah
20:9). This is thus mykil to undirstonde: The love and the felynge of God was maad in
myn herte not as fier, but as fier glowand; for as bodili fire brenneth and wasteth al
bodili thyng where it cometh, right so gosteli fier, as is love of God, brenneth and
wasteth fleischli loves and likynges in a mannys soule, and this fier is stokyn so in my
boonys, as the prophete seith of himsilf. That is for to seie, this love filleth ful the
myghtes of the soule, as mynde, wille, and resoun, of grace and goostli swettenesse, as
marwe filleth fulle the boon; and that is withinne, not withouten in the wittis. Neverthelees,
it is so myghti withinne that it smyteth oute into the bodi, and dooth al the bodi quake
and tremble
, for it is so feer from the bodili kynde and so uncouthe that he can no skile
of it and mai not bere it, but faileth and falleth doun, as the prophete seide. Therfore
oure Lord temprith it and withdraweth the fervour and suffreth the herte for to falle into
sobirté of mor swettenesse. Whoso can preie thus ofte, he spedeth swithe in his travaile.
He schal gete more of vertues in a litil tyme thanne sum man withoutyn this, or anothir
as gode schal doo in a longe tyme, for al the bodili penaunce that he myght doo; and
whoso hath this, it nedeth not to charge the bodili kynde with more penance than he
bereth yif he have it ofte.

The entire treatise is geared to those pursuing a contemplative and eremitic life.  To some extent, it is analogous to The Ladder of Divine Ascent of St. John Climacus (available on pdf here), but if you really compare the two, not so much.  I wonder if Hilton had access to this much older work.
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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2015, 07:18:12 AM »
Maximum Bob, I'm not unfamiliar with Pentecostalism, both personally and academically speaking.  I know what being "slain in the spirit" means, and it's not what's described in the passages you're referencing.  I would not say that this woman, for example, is being "overwhelmed by the presence of God".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeBya-Q4uzI

St. Paul, et al, were in full possession of their faculties the entire time.  God doesn't possess and overwhelm people like a voodoo spirit.  No one had to catch them or throw a sheet over them because their slip was showing.  I don't mean this sarcastically, but in all sincerity.  We know where Pentecostalism comes from.  It's not the work of the Holy Spirit.

Calling it gibberish and the like of course is from the evil one and should be roundly rejected.

It is gibberish and moreover from the evil one and should be roundly rejected.

In seeking to discern whether a work is of God or not, I look for preaching and testifying that honours Christ in His Person and work, Saviour, Lord, Son of God, and Trinitarian orthodoxy; and for changed lives which give evidence of God's working in them by goodness, gentleness, patience &c (i.e. the fruit of the Spirit) over a sustained period. I see these things as I read of early Primitive Methodism, and of many other movements in church history.

Thank God we also have the testimony of the Church to help us discern in such matters.  We only see things like this occur outside of the Church.
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

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Offline FinnJames

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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2015, 09:23:35 AM »
A newspaper article I've held on to for years:
"Spirit overcomes, injures man
Matt Lincoln of Knoxville, Tenn., is suing Lakewind Church to the tune of $2,5-million for injuries sustained while he was under he influence of the spirit of the Lord. Lincoln, 57, says he was asking God for a 'real experience' during the June 2007 service, and was knocked down by the force of the response, hurting his back and legs. It wasn't the first time he fell, he said, but usually other congregants caught him when it happened. The congregants that did not catch him this time are not his best witnesses. They say he was laughing on the floor after it happened and that he should've been more careful."

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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2015, 09:39:24 AM »
A newspaper article I've held on to for years:
"Spirit overcomes, injures man
Matt Lincoln of Knoxville, Tenn., is suing Lakewind Church to the tune of $2,5-million for injuries sustained while he was under he influence of the spirit of the Lord. Lincoln, 57, says he was asking God for a 'real experience' during the June 2007 service, and was knocked down by the force of the response, hurting his back and legs. It wasn't the first time he fell, he said, but usually other congregants caught him when it happened. The congregants that did not catch him this time are not his best witnesses. They say he was laughing on the floor after it happened and that he should've been more careful."

I find the fact that people attribute this sort of thing to the Holy Spirit to be sad and disconcerting.  I truly recommend that anyone interested in a dispassionate, reasoned, and truthful analysis from an Orthodox perspective read In Peace Let Us Pray to the Lord referenced above.  Without such perspective, and seeking the experience of what we know to be the Church on this, not just a collection of individuals who self-identify as Christians but are disconnected from the Church, it just becomes a matter of my personal experience/opinion vs. yours.
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2015, 09:44:01 AM »
I recommend Japanese game shows for more "real experiences"

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Re: Speaking in tongues and encounters with the Holy Spirit
« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2015, 11:32:11 AM »
I recommend Japanese game shows for more "real experiences"



Or In Living Color.
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