Author Topic: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?  (Read 12790 times)

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Offline Ilarija

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Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« on: March 10, 2014, 09:33:39 PM »
I am afraid not even the deepest regrets of not knowing of God sooner are valuable in this case. I've read they are forbidden to marry woman that is not virgin. Is is happening this days? Should that kind of girl, leave the guy in peace taking away additional troubles he might have?
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2014, 10:24:08 PM »
I'm not sure I understand the question, but assuming I do, this is a question that the student in question should ask of his confessor, if not the bishop himself. 
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Offline Maximum Bob

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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2014, 10:31:37 PM »
Welcome to the forum.

If I'm reading you correctly, your wondering if a girl who came to Christ, later in life, (after having previously been with a man) falls in love with a seminarian can they be together? Or, should she just leave him alone rather than create problems for him?

Is that correct?
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Offline Ilarija

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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2014, 10:38:56 PM »
Thank you very much. Yes that is correct, that is my question
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Offline Maximum Bob

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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2014, 10:42:10 PM »
If that all took place before coming to Christ I would speculate that it had all been washed clean in the baptism, but it probably is a question for a priest, unless some one here can do better than speculate.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2014, 10:46:46 PM »
If that all took place before coming to Christ I would speculate that it had all been washed clean in the baptism, but it probably is a question for a priest, unless some one here can do better than speculate.

This, and what Mor said above.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2014, 10:48:47 PM »
Thank you very much. Yes that is correct, that is my question

The student should ask his bishop.  

There are canons prohibiting the ordination of a man who married a divorced woman, a widow, etc., and I suppose those could be applicable even if there is no specific mention of a never-married non-virgin.  But I'm not sure how often these are enforced strictly: certainly in the US, I'm not familiar with this having caused a problem for any seminarian or candidate for ordination.  Ultimately, only the bishop of the student would know for sure what to do in his specific case, or what he has done in similar cases within his diocese.  

The student should ask his bishop.  

As for what the girl should do, I'm not sure she should do anything drastic, one way or the other, without talking to the guy.  And the guy needs to talk to his bishop.  ;)
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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2014, 10:55:16 PM »
Wow, is there a church rule against future clergy marrying nonvirgins?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 10:55:32 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline Ilarija

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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2014, 10:57:49 PM »
Is Leviticus 21:13 the canon you referred to Mor?
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2014, 11:21:48 PM »
Is Leviticus 21:13 the canon you referred to Mor?

No, the canon I had in mind is from (at least) one of the local and/or ecumenical councils. 

Actually, there are a lot of "impediments" that would prevent a man from being ordained if we looked at things exclusively by the letter of the law (e.g., if he has tattoos, if he's not a virgin, if he's ever masturbated, if he's twice married, etc.).  It's not just about having lived a "decent" life and having maintained a level of personal purity but it's also about avoiding scandal: if a priest's "past" is known publicly and causes upset or scandal in the community, it will prevent him from exercising his ministry properly, and that will affect the people, his fellow clergy, etc., even if he repented, did penance, was forgiven, hasn't slipped back into the same problems, etc.  Decisions about worthiness for ordination are not made merely on the basis of the candidate being "a good guy", many other things are considered.   

Usually, before ordination, there is an opportunity to review these questions in confession and, if an impediment exists, to have the bishop make a decision on whether or not to make an exception and allow the person to be ordained in spite of the existence of an impediment.  That's why it's important for a candidate to speak with the bishop, or with someone who works closely with the bishop in his office, or with his confessor about such issues.  The only answer that counts is the answer of the student's bishop. 
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Offline truthseeker32

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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2014, 12:20:41 PM »
I see no reason that a seminarian would be forbidden from marrying a non-virgin if she was repentant. We are all sinners and God forgives.

Offline Ilarija

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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2014, 12:35:25 PM »
J agree, but because of this sentence - "Leviticus 21:14 - A widow, or one divorced, or a profane woman, a harlot, these shall he not take: but a virgin of his own people shall he take to wife", J wondered if it is actually a real rule. But as Mor said, it will probably be the best to get an answer from the Bishop.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2014, 11:50:53 PM »
I'm sure that lady would really appreciate the bishop knowing about her sexual past.   :-\

Also what if she lied?  Who really "checks"?

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Offline Nephi

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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2014, 11:55:17 PM »
Honestly, in the US, how many priests would we end up having if candidates were required to marry virgins?

Offline augustin717

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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2014, 01:43:40 AM »
Perhaps that most disfunctional handful ^
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Offline Gorazd

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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2014, 04:44:43 AM »
Of course, canons she be applied with ikonomia. But I am starting to sense that some people don't have such a positive view of virgins, both female and male...

I mean, virginity is a virtue. As Orthodox Christians, we must not allow ourselves to see it something "lame" or "uncool". And in fact, look at these pretty Coptic girls...

Offline LBK

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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2014, 06:26:09 AM »
I'm sure that lady would really appreciate the bishop knowing about her sexual past.   :-\

Also what if she lied?  Who really "checks"?

Some things in life seem best unsaid.  

That's pretty rich coming from someone who has no qualms about speculating about the sex life of the Mother of God, such as in this thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,51372.0.html

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It would not change Mary at all nor the virgin birth.  If her and Joseph engaged in physical relation, it matters not IMHO.   Married people can and should do this, without ANY defilement or wickedness.  They are "one flesh" after all.

I'm just kind of thrown off a lot because of the claims made of Mary & Joseph.  I mean who was there to "really know".    I mean did Joseph tell all the people he knew "I don't make love with my wife"... I think there is A LOT of assumption passed off they never made love as a husband and wife...

Even if early Christians or saints have said this stuff, I still find it hard to believe.  Anybody that is married KNOWS that even your closest friends and family do not know about your physical relationship (when or when not you have engaged in it).  Hard to believe a guy from 150 A.D. would know what went on behind the curtain...

I guess the truth of the matter is, I would be happy if they actually did make love.  It would make their marriage seem closer and that Christ grew up with closely bonded parents.

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Anyhow it makes more sense to me that Mary & Joseph did engage in a physical relationship after Christ was born.  

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"Fleshy desires" within love making between husband and wife are exactly the way God created us.  Not ONE single person would be here (except Adam at the beginning), including Mary, if people didn't desire sexually.  

« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 06:27:53 AM by LBK »
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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2014, 06:57:51 AM »
I'm sure that lady would really appreciate the bishop knowing about her sexual past.   :-\

Also what if she lied?  Who really "checks"?

Some things in life seem best unsaid. 

I may be out of line here, but this advice is rather leaning towards

'Oh no need to confess! All between you and God anyhow'


Really, you may not do this, but suggesting to someone Orthodox that they don't need to say....
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Offline LBK

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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2014, 07:29:14 AM »
I'm sure that lady would really appreciate the bishop knowing about her sexual past.   :-\

Also what if she lied?  Who really "checks"?

Some things in life seem best unsaid. 

I may be out of line here, but this advice is rather leaning towards

'Oh no need to confess! All between you and God anyhow'


Really, you may not do this, but suggesting to someone Orthodox that they don't need to say....

DD, yesh is renowned for picking and choosing which morsels of Orthodoxy he likes, and discarding or rubbishing the rest.  :( ::)
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Offline Orest

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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2014, 08:13:02 AM »
Honestly, in the US, how many priests would we end up having if candidates were required to marry virgins?
Interesting that in this discussion no one mentions the virginity of the seminarian.

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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2014, 08:25:07 AM »
Honestly, in the US, how many priests would we end up having if candidates were required to marry virgins?
Interesting that in this discussion no one mentions the virginity of the seminarian.


They should. What's sauce for the goose ...  :police:
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2014, 11:19:58 AM »
Interesting that in this discussion no one mentions the virginity of the seminarian.


Actually, there are a lot of "impediments" that would prevent a man from being ordained if we looked at things exclusively by the letter of the law (e.g., if he has tattoos, if he's not a virgin, if he's ever masturbated, if he's twice married, etc.).  It's not just about having lived a "decent" life and having maintained a level of personal purity but it's also about avoiding scandal: if a priest's "past" is known publicly and causes upset or scandal in the community, it will prevent him from exercising his ministry properly, and that will affect the people, his fellow clergy, etc., even if he repented, did penance, was forgiven, hasn't slipped back into the same problems, etc.  Decisions about worthiness for ordination are not made merely on the basis of the candidate being "a good guy", many other things are considered.   

Usually, before ordination, there is an opportunity to review these questions in confession and, if an impediment exists, to have the bishop make a decision on whether or not to make an exception and allow the person to be ordained in spite of the existence of an impediment.  That's why it's important for a candidate to speak with the bishop, or with someone who works closely with the bishop in his office, or with his confessor about such issues.  The only answer that counts is the answer of the student's bishop. 

Never doubt me, Orest.  ;)
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2014, 11:21:28 AM »
Wow, is there a church rule against future clergy marrying nonvirgins?

Yes. A priest and his wife should be virgins before marriage.
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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2014, 11:21:55 AM »
Interesting that in this discussion no one mentions the virginity of the seminarian.


Actually, there are a lot of "impediments" that would prevent a man from being ordained if we looked at things exclusively by the letter of the law (e.g., if he has tattoos, if he's not a virgin, if he's ever masturbated, if he's twice married, etc.).  It's not just about having lived a "decent" life and having maintained a level of personal purity but it's also about avoiding scandal: if a priest's "past" is known publicly and causes upset or scandal in the community, it will prevent him from exercising his ministry properly, and that will affect the people, his fellow clergy, etc., even if he repented, did penance, was forgiven, hasn't slipped back into the same problems, etc.  Decisions about worthiness for ordination are not made merely on the basis of the candidate being "a good guy", many other things are considered.   

Usually, before ordination, there is an opportunity to review these questions in confession and, if an impediment exists, to have the bishop make a decision on whether or not to make an exception and allow the person to be ordained in spite of the existence of an impediment.  That's why it's important for a candidate to speak with the bishop, or with someone who works closely with the bishop in his office, or with his confessor about such issues.  The only answer that counts is the answer of the student's bishop. 

Never doubt me, Orest.  ;)



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Offline Ersaia

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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2014, 11:28:13 AM »
Wow, is there a church rule against future clergy marrying nonvirgins?

Yes. A priest and his wife should be virgins before marriage.

a theology student is not a priest

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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2014, 11:32:57 AM »
I'm sure that lady would really appreciate the bishop knowing about her sexual past.   :-\

Also what if she lied?  Who really "checks"?

Some things in life seem best unsaid. 

The OP doesn't specify the situation, so we can't say for sure what we're dealing with.  Perhaps the girl's "past" is public knowledge (e.g., she has a child out of wedlock, or conceived a child which did not survive, or is divorced).  In such cases, the average person would not need your level of prurient inquisitiveness into the lives of women to presume that this particular girl is not a virgin.  

But let's assume we're dealing with a girl who "has a past" that is not public knowledge but is known to the guy she is dating.  If that guy is studying for the priesthood, he's probably aware of the existence of these sorts of canons, which is why he, if in doubt, should approach the bishop for an authoritative answer.  Theoretically, if he's asked about this by his bishop and knows the answer, I think he is obligated to answer in order for the bishop to make an appropriate decision.  But if he's not asked, I'm not sure he's required to volunteer that information on behalf of the girl.  If he's asked and does not know the answer, I'm not sure it needs to go any further than that: the presumption should be "innocence" until/unless proven otherwise.      
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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2014, 11:33:47 AM »
Wow, is there a church rule against future clergy marrying nonvirgins?

Yes. A priest and his wife should be virgins before marriage.

Not just priests.  ;)
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Offline Ersaia

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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2014, 11:42:08 AM »
Wow, is there a church rule against future clergy marrying nonvirgins?

Yes. A priest and his wife should be virgins before marriage.

Not just priests.  ;)

exactly :)

so if someone can stay virgin and love a girl who stays virgin it's good
BUT you will rarely find this these days
so
I think it's better to consider how this girl will act after marriage and if someone has in his mind that he want to be priest in future to talk with this girl and decide if she can act as priest wife in future


Offline Cackles

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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2014, 09:09:33 PM »
I am afraid not even the deepest regrets of not knowing of God sooner are valuable in this case. I've read they are forbidden to marry woman that is not virgin. Is is happening this days? Should that kind of girl, leave the guy in peace taking away additional troubles he might have?

Yes the girl should be a virgin and not only this, she must also be pure. Not have had ex bf's or kissed sort of thing. The more pure the better. she should also be of a priest class of people. Or a religious type of person. Not someone shallow and secular.

Now what rules humans are making up these days for themselves who knows. I'd imagine that it wouldn't be a problem in today's Church.
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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2014, 09:09:33 PM »
I am afraid not even the deepest regrets of not knowing of God sooner are valuable in this case. I've read they are forbidden to marry woman that is not virgin. Is is happening this days? Should that kind of girl, leave the guy in peace taking away additional troubles he might have?
Who is going to check her status?
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2014, 10:16:51 PM »
I'm sure that lady would really appreciate the bishop knowing about her sexual past.   :-\

Also what if she lied?  Who really "checks"?

Some things in life seem best unsaid.  

That's pretty rich coming from someone who has no qualms about speculating about the sex life of the Mother of God, such as in this thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,51372.0.html

Quote
It would not change Mary at all nor the virgin birth.  If her and Joseph engaged in physical relation, it matters not IMHO.   Married people can and should do this, without ANY defilement or wickedness.  They are "one flesh" after all.

I'm just kind of thrown off a lot because of the claims made of Mary & Joseph.  I mean who was there to "really know".    I mean did Joseph tell all the people he knew "I don't make love with my wife"... I think there is A LOT of assumption passed off they never made love as a husband and wife...

Even if early Christians or saints have said this stuff, I still find it hard to believe.  Anybody that is married KNOWS that even your closest friends and family do not know about your physical relationship (when or when not you have engaged in it).  Hard to believe a guy from 150 A.D. would know what went on behind the curtain...

I guess the truth of the matter is, I would be happy if they actually did make love.  It would make their marriage seem closer and that Christ grew up with closely bonded parents.

Quote
Anyhow it makes more sense to me that Mary & Joseph did engage in a physical relationship after Christ was born.  

Quote
"Fleshy desires" within love making between husband and wife are exactly the way God created us.  Not ONE single person would be here (except Adam at the beginning), including Mary, if people didn't desire sexually.  



I'm sorry you feel so inclined to attack, but the subject matter is entirely different.

This wasn't speaking of virgins getting married, it was speaking of the claim EO Christians use to call Mary the ever virgin.

In thread context (rather than excerpting lines to make a point in order to attack), the dialog included whether or not she WAS a virgin for life (as claimed by the EO), or if her memory as giving birth as a virgin remains hence "always remembered as a virgin that gave birth" but had other children.  Since Mary is a focus in EO worship, and her virginity is spoken of affluently and often, and that the birth of Christ to this virgin was a massive event in human history, the dialog was fine and not of this subject matter.

It is a far cry from a man running to his bishop (who is not married) shaming a woman he wants to marry and discussing her prior sexual relations.

I didn't shame Mary, merely emphasized that married people have sex (one flesh) and some were noted as "mother and brothers" by the disciples.

The thread context involves shaming a woman and discussing her non-virginity to a former husband or fornicated romp.


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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2014, 10:22:36 PM »
Yes the girl should be a virgin and not only this, she must also be pure. Not have had ex bf's or kissed sort of thing. The more pure the better. she should also be of a priest class of people. Or a religious type of person. Not someone shallow and secular.

Now what rules humans are making up these days for themselves who knows. I'd imagine that it wouldn't be a problem in today's Church.

Ilarija,

Some things need to be taken with a grain of salt.  Other things need to be sent back to the kitchen as entirely inedible and then you noisily leave the restaurant without paying and go home to write a scathing review online in which you demand the immediate termination of the chef and those who taught him how to cook.

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2014, 10:24:56 PM »
I'm sure that lady would really appreciate the bishop knowing about her sexual past.   :-\

Also what if she lied?  Who really "checks"?

Some things in life seem best unsaid. 

The OP doesn't specify the situation, so we can't say for sure what we're dealing with.  Perhaps the girl's "past" is public knowledge (e.g., she has a child out of wedlock, or conceived a child which did not survive, or is divorced).  In such cases, the average person would not need your level of prurient inquisitiveness into the lives of women to presume that this particular girl is not a virgin.  

But let's assume we're dealing with a girl who "has a past" that is not public knowledge but is known to the guy she is dating.  If that guy is studying for the priesthood, he's probably aware of the existence of these sorts of canons, which is why he, if in doubt, should approach the bishop for an authoritative answer.  Theoretically, if he's asked about this by his bishop and knows the answer, I think he is obligated to answer in order for the bishop to make an appropriate decision.  But if he's not asked, I'm not sure he's required to volunteer that information on behalf of the girl.  If he's asked and does not know the answer, I'm not sure it needs to go any further than that: the presumption should be "innocence" until/unless proven otherwise.      

I see your point.   Sometimes it is rather obvious.

Yes, in the case of non-obviousness, it's a bit confusing to me.  I can't imagine a bishop directly asking a person studying for the priesthood "Hey man, has your woman ever.....".   :)  Not saying it has never happened... I bet a lot of guys would take offense.  Kind of like calling your special someone a harlot of sorts.

In the end I would hope the bishop would say "I don't condemn you either" if the woman was not a virgin.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2014, 10:28:56 PM »
I am afraid not even the deepest regrets of not knowing of God sooner are valuable in this case. I've read they are forbidden to marry woman that is not virgin. Is is happening this days? Should that kind of girl, leave the guy in peace taking away additional troubles he might have?

Yes the girl should be a virgin and not only this, she must also be pure. Not have had ex bf's or kissed sort of thing. The more pure the better. she should also be of a priest class of people. Or a religious type of person. Not someone shallow and secular.

Now what rules humans are making up these days for themselves who knows. I'd imagine that it wouldn't be a problem in today's Church.

Some of this sounds extreme.

So you are saying a lady that had a courtship with a man (ex bf's) and did not marry him could not be considered pure?

Purity is a good thing, and the church loves that.... But there has to be some type of courtship that is "pure".... Unless we want to go back to arranged marriage.
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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2014, 10:35:05 PM »
Yes the girl should be a virgin and not only this, she must also be pure. Not have had ex bf's or kissed sort of thing. The more pure the better. she should also be of a priest class of people. Or a religious type of person. Not someone shallow and secular.

Now what rules humans are making up these days for themselves who knows. I'd imagine that it wouldn't be a problem in today's Church.

Some of this sounds extreme.

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2014, 10:38:36 PM »
I'm sure that lady would really appreciate the bishop knowing about her sexual past.   :-\

Also what if she lied?  Who really "checks"?

Some things in life seem best unsaid. 

I may be out of line here, but this advice is rather leaning towards

'Oh no need to confess! All between you and God anyhow'


Really, you may not do this, but suggesting to someone Orthodox that they don't need to say....

DD, yesh is renowned for picking and choosing which morsels of Orthodoxy he likes, and discarding or rubbishing the rest.  :( ::)

LBK is correct.  It's exactly what I do.

DeniseDenise it's not what I was getting at.  There is a need for confession for sure.  We are to confess our sins to one another as the gospel quotes.

The issue at hand (which I am getting at) is a candidate for clergy approaching a bishop talking about his "future wife's" sexual life and encounters.

I don't think there is anything solid here.  She could easily lie about her virginity.  She could confess her sins to her future husband and let him decide (confess to one another).   Or the husband can go to his bishop and let him know that the lady he wants to marry has had 2 men before him and what should he do?

As example by what LBK said, the part of Orthodoxy I appreciate is the recognition of this sin, the confession of the sin - but the part I hang to (which is not "un-EO" as we can confess to one another in certain circumstances) - the person who would be impacted by this sin the most would be her future husband.  If she confesses and he forgives her I would not see the point in running to a bishop.

However in terms of Holy Matrimony and divorce, this would be different.  As Christ said she would be an adulterer.
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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2014, 10:39:36 PM »
Yes, in the case of non-obviousness, it's a bit confusing to me.  I can't imagine a bishop directly asking a person studying for the priesthood "Hey man, has your woman ever.....".   :)  Not saying it has never happened... I bet a lot of guys would take offense.  Kind of like calling your special someone a harlot of sorts.

In the end I would hope the bishop would say "I don't condemn you either" if the woman was not a virgin.


To be fair, I don't think a bishop would interview a candidate for ordination and take a "sexual history" of his spouse or spouse-to-be.  If it's not obviously one or the other, I think the presumption would be innocence.  

That said, you are mistaken to look at this as a matter of "condemnation" or "lack of forgiveness".  If a genuine impediment exists, it is not because God's mercy is limited.  There are other reasons for regarding X as an impediment and requiring the bishop to make a decision on whether to be strict about it or be lenient.  
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2014, 10:46:54 PM »
Yes the girl should be a virgin and not only this, she must also be pure. Not have had ex bf's or kissed sort of thing. The more pure the better. she should also be of a priest class of people. Or a religious type of person. Not someone shallow and secular.

Now what rules humans are making up these days for themselves who knows. I'd imagine that it wouldn't be a problem in today's Church.

Some of this sounds extreme.

!!!!!

I have to know the definition of ex-bf's and understand if this person meant physical relation (like a typical American BF/GF relationship) or merely a courtship - generally hands off.

Mor Ephrem, http://torturedforchrist.com/

^read that book, and the youtube video won't seem so silly anymore.  100% free to order - no catch at all.  Let me just say the author of that book would be very disturbed by that video.

EDIT - It's just fresh on my mind as I went over a chapter last night......  You'll see what I mean if you decide to read it.  It's real good (disturbing yet faith filled) and DOES involve EO Christians a lot.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 10:52:39 PM by yeshuaisiam »
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2014, 10:50:53 PM »
Yes, in the case of non-obviousness, it's a bit confusing to me.  I can't imagine a bishop directly asking a person studying for the priesthood "Hey man, has your woman ever.....".   :)  Not saying it has never happened... I bet a lot of guys would take offense.  Kind of like calling your special someone a harlot of sorts.

In the end I would hope the bishop would say "I don't condemn you either" if the woman was not a virgin.


To be fair, I don't think a bishop would interview a candidate for ordination and take a "sexual history" of his spouse or spouse-to-be.  If it's not obviously one or the other, I think the presumption would be innocence.  

That said, you are mistaken to look at this as a matter of "condemnation" or "lack of forgiveness".  If a genuine impediment exists, it is not because God's mercy is limited.  There are other reasons for regarding X as an impediment and requiring the bishop to make a decision on whether to be strict about it or be lenient.  

Yes, I agree with you on your points.

It is up to the bishop to decide in the matter within his flock.  I also agree that the presumption would be of innocence...   I doubt a bishop would ask either, but was just making a point.   In the case of "obviousness", I think that it's obvious the bishop would become involved.  (Like if she had a child)
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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2014, 10:56:18 PM »
I'm sure that lady would really appreciate the bishop knowing about her sexual past.   :-\

Also what if she lied?  Who really "checks"?

Some things in life seem best unsaid.  

That's pretty rich coming from someone who has no qualms about speculating about the sex life of the Mother of God, such as in this thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,51372.0.html

Quote
It would not change Mary at all nor the virgin birth.  If her and Joseph engaged in physical relation, it matters not IMHO.   Married people can and should do this, without ANY defilement or wickedness.  They are "one flesh" after all.

I'm just kind of thrown off a lot because of the claims made of Mary & Joseph.  I mean who was there to "really know".    I mean did Joseph tell all the people he knew "I don't make love with my wife"... I think there is A LOT of assumption passed off they never made love as a husband and wife...

Even if early Christians or saints have said this stuff, I still find it hard to believe.  Anybody that is married KNOWS that even your closest friends and family do not know about your physical relationship (when or when not you have engaged in it).  Hard to believe a guy from 150 A.D. would know what went on behind the curtain...

I guess the truth of the matter is, I would be happy if they actually did make love.  It would make their marriage seem closer and that Christ grew up with closely bonded parents.

Quote
Anyhow it makes more sense to me that Mary & Joseph did engage in a physical relationship after Christ was born.  

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"Fleshy desires" within love making between husband and wife are exactly the way God created us.  Not ONE single person would be here (except Adam at the beginning), including Mary, if people didn't desire sexually.  



I'm sorry you feel so inclined to attack, but the subject matter is entirely different.

This wasn't speaking of virgins getting married, it was speaking of the claim EO Christians use to call Mary the ever virgin.

In thread context (rather than excerpting lines to make a point in order to attack), the dialog included whether or not she WAS a virgin for life (as claimed by the EO), or if her memory as giving birth as a virgin remains hence "always remembered as a virgin that gave birth" but had other children.  Since Mary is a focus in EO worship, and her virginity is spoken of affluently and often, and that the birth of Christ to this virgin was a massive event in human history, the dialog was fine and not of this subject matter.

It is a far cry from a man running to his bishop (who is not married) shaming a woman he wants to marry and discussing her prior sexual relations.

I didn't shame Mary, merely emphasized that married people have sex (one flesh) and some were noted as "mother and brothers" by the disciples.

The thread context involves shaming a woman and discussing her non-virginity to a former husband or fornicated romp.


Attack you? Oh, my. Is that what you call the act of someone using your own words to show your error and inconsistency?

I posted those posts of yours to show the inconsistency (to put it mildly) of your "none of anyone's business" stance on the sexual history of a prospective spouse of a seminarian, and your open and unambiguous assertions on the sexual history of the Mother of God, in your refusal to accept her ever-virginity (which means she NEVER had sexual relations with anyone, not even the man to whom she was betrothed, and her nominal husband), this being not only an Orthodox teaching, but one of the few dogmas (i.e. a non-negotiable belief) of the Orthodox Church.
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Offline Agabus

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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2014, 11:12:12 PM »
 I doubt a bishop would ask either.   
It would be weird if he did.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2014, 11:29:08 PM »
I'm sure that lady would really appreciate the bishop knowing about her sexual past.   :-\

Also what if she lied?  Who really "checks"?

Some things in life seem best unsaid.  

That's pretty rich coming from someone who has no qualms about speculating about the sex life of the Mother of God, such as in this thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,51372.0.html

Quote
It would not change Mary at all nor the virgin birth.  If her and Joseph engaged in physical relation, it matters not IMHO.   Married people can and should do this, without ANY defilement or wickedness.  They are "one flesh" after all.

I'm just kind of thrown off a lot because of the claims made of Mary & Joseph.  I mean who was there to "really know".    I mean did Joseph tell all the people he knew "I don't make love with my wife"... I think there is A LOT of assumption passed off they never made love as a husband and wife...

Even if early Christians or saints have said this stuff, I still find it hard to believe.  Anybody that is married KNOWS that even your closest friends and family do not know about your physical relationship (when or when not you have engaged in it).  Hard to believe a guy from 150 A.D. would know what went on behind the curtain...

I guess the truth of the matter is, I would be happy if they actually did make love.  It would make their marriage seem closer and that Christ grew up with closely bonded parents.

Quote
Anyhow it makes more sense to me that Mary & Joseph did engage in a physical relationship after Christ was born.  

Quote
"Fleshy desires" within love making between husband and wife are exactly the way God created us.  Not ONE single person would be here (except Adam at the beginning), including Mary, if people didn't desire sexually.  



I'm sorry you feel so inclined to attack, but the subject matter is entirely different.

This wasn't speaking of virgins getting married, it was speaking of the claim EO Christians use to call Mary the ever virgin.

In thread context (rather than excerpting lines to make a point in order to attack), the dialog included whether or not she WAS a virgin for life (as claimed by the EO), or if her memory as giving birth as a virgin remains hence "always remembered as a virgin that gave birth" but had other children.  Since Mary is a focus in EO worship, and her virginity is spoken of affluently and often, and that the birth of Christ to this virgin was a massive event in human history, the dialog was fine and not of this subject matter.

It is a far cry from a man running to his bishop (who is not married) shaming a woman he wants to marry and discussing her prior sexual relations.

I didn't shame Mary, merely emphasized that married people have sex (one flesh) and some were noted as "mother and brothers" by the disciples.

The thread context involves shaming a woman and discussing her non-virginity to a former husband or fornicated romp.


Attack you? Oh, my. Is that what you call the act of someone using your own words to show your error and inconsistency?

I posted those posts of yours to show the inconsistency (to put it mildly) of your "none of anyone's business" stance on the sexual history of a prospective spouse of a seminarian, and your open and unambiguous assertions on the sexual history of the Mother of God, in your refusal to accept her ever-virginity (which means she NEVER had sexual relations with anyone, not even the man to whom she was betrothed, and her nominal husband), this being not only an Orthodox teaching, but one of the few dogmas (i.e. a non-negotiable belief) of the Orthodox Church.

Yes, and it is that teaching I was bringing into question, and it wasn't shaming her at all.  It was arguing the brothers argument and the teaching that she never had sex with HER HUSBAND - MARRIED - ONE FLESH. 

It's not a sin nor does it tarnish anybody to have sex with their spouse.   We are talking about totally different things from totally different threads.   I was discussing the EO teaching on the matter, which teaches of ever virginity based on nothing, when all logic dictates that husbands and wives are of one flesh.  Plus the bible talks about Jesus's brothers.   

I don't see it being inconsistent at all, as there was not consistency to begin with.   A woman who was divorced or fornicated who is a potential spouse of a future priest and going to a bishop with the bang bang details of it all, is way different than saying "Gee, it doesn't make sense why the EO say that Mary and Joseph never had relations.  The bible cites brothers of Jesus, and married people are one flesh".

Never once did I accuse her to have fornicated or committed adultery, which is EXACTLY what this thread is about.  So if you believe sex between spouses is worth going to a bishop over - whatever.
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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #42 on: March 12, 2014, 11:40:28 PM »
Your abandonment of the truths of Orthodoxy sadly informs your post, as it does so much of what you have posted in your time here. 'Nuff said.  :( :( ::)
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 11:40:45 PM by LBK »
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Offline Cackles

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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #43 on: March 13, 2014, 12:20:57 PM »
I am afraid not even the deepest regrets of not knowing of God sooner are valuable in this case. I've read they are forbidden to marry woman that is not virgin. Is is happening this days? Should that kind of girl, leave the guy in peace taking away additional troubles he might have?

Yes the girl should be a virgin and not only this, she must also be pure. Not have had ex bf's or kissed sort of thing. The more pure the better. she should also be of a priest class of people. Or a religious type of person. Not someone shallow and secular.

Now what rules humans are making up these days for themselves who knows. I'd imagine that it wouldn't be a problem in today's Church.

Some of this sounds extreme.

So you are saying a lady that had a courtship with a man (ex bf's) and did not marry him could not be considered pure?

Purity is a good thing, and the church loves that.... But there has to be some type of courtship that is "pure".... Unless we want to go back to arranged marriage.

Well I was just paraphrasing directly out of the Bible for the rules for priests to get married.

The Muslims practice this the most. But also the Cohen Jews. Both religions have a priest class(s) of families. I'm sure the the Christians do to but its been lost in modern history.

So if a local Imam wants to marry a wife, or Rabbi wants to marry a wife, their wives will almost always be out of another religious family with Imams or Rabbi's. They have almost 0% divorce rate. The Jews are the most strict. The Cohens are not allowed at all to marry another non-Cohen.

The Bible says to do this actually. Its not something Im making up. Anyone can try to challenge this.
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Re: Can Orthodox theology student marry girl that is not virgin?
« Reply #44 on: March 13, 2014, 11:06:57 PM »
No offense, but I don't see why most men would marry a non-virgin to begin with. I don't care how politically incorrect it is, but seeing that I'm a virgin and probably will be on my wedding night (if I can find a prostitute to marry me) I don't think it's unfair to demand that my partner be one as well. I deserve the extra "benefits" of a virgin woman if you know what I mean. If my wife doesn't bleed on the wedding night I'm filing for divorce. I'm done with always being told I'm valueless. I'd take what I think I'm entitled to.